Electricians Strike

wexford202

sovtek wrote: »

Are you seriously going to hunt that dog? A contractor doesn't factor in AGREED pay increase to a tender over the life of it! Come on! Value plus ring a bell?

Would you not take it when the labour court in Ireland does not pass this increase that you would still allow for it.

No way would you do that.

This was not agreed. One out of three groups sanctioned it in 2007 the TEEU. The other two did not have a licence to even agree to this agreement in the first place BUT NOBODY STOPPED IT AND STOOD UP TO THEM BACK THEN.

wexford202

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Those who dislike unions are not doing a good job of interpreting the messages from people in the ICTU. Do you think they would have any chance of working constructively with the electricians if they abused them as a shower of self-serving troublemakers? They have to keep the lines of communication open, and maintain good relationships with TEEU.

While much of the discussion focuses on the demand for an increase of 11% which, apparently, is due under an agreement already made, somewhat less attention is being paid to the demand of employers that pay be cut by 10% or the intemperate remarks of Tom Parlon.

I'm fairly sure that the final outcome will be that there will be no significant increase or reduction in pay. I suspect that ICTU have the same expectation, but it is bad negotiation to alienate your own people or give away your final position before the other side is prepared to make any move.

That is because there has been no application for a pay cut.

There probably won't be. It will be a pay feeze if anything

brianthebard

P. Breathnach wrote: »

While much of the discussion focuses on the demand for an increase of 11% which, apparently, is due under an agreement already made, somewhat less attention is being paid to the demand of employers that pay be cut by 10% or the intemperate remarks of Tom Parlon.

Do you have a link to his remarks, I've seen them mentioned on this thread but don't know what he said.

wexford202

I think there is a link from Pat Kennys radio one show. The remarks of Eamon Devoy were the interesting ones. he seemed delighted that he managed to F%$K the country up for a day or two

sovtek

wexford202 wrote: »

Would you not take it when the labour court in Ireland does not pass this increase that you would still allow for it.

Give me a break. Contractors pad the bill all the time.

wexford202

sovtek wrote: »

Give me a break. Contractors pad the bill all the time.

You shouldn't be wasting your time here on this site. You should be out with your picket yourself as you seem as ignorant to the real worls as everyone else that are striking

Villain

wexford202 wrote: »

No I can say that I have never priced at the increased rates. Reason why is it was not passed in the labour court and the labour court said it would not grant the increase of electricians rates.

Therefore I would be blown out of the water by other contractors if I had of put something in my price which was not passed in law.

When pricing something you look at he REA for the rates. The REA rates on all union sites is still 21.49 per hour. That is the prices contractors went with

Can you say that NO contractors charged at the increased rates?

Also where did teh €9 an hour come from what stage apprentice is that ?

sovtek

wexford202 wrote: »

Here here

So are you saying that you a nostalgic for a better time gone by?

wexford202

Villain wrote: »

Can you say that NO contractors charged at the increased rates?

Also where did teh €9 an hour come from what stage apprentice is that ?

I can't speak for everyoneonly myself. The market is competitive and it is down to price so I would imagine those that did allow didn't get the job.

A second year apprentice is on 9.33 per hour

Villain

wexford202 wrote: »

I can't speak for everyoneonly myself. The market is competitive and it is down to price so I would imagine those that did allow didn't get the job.

A second year apprentice is on 9.33 per hour

The problem is if some contractors did charge the increase but didn't pass it on, the those on strike have a very valid point

wexford202

I think that may be assumptions more than facts though too.

Many contractors are owed alot of retention from projects than were completed in 2007. The client held 5% in some cases and now cannot afford to pay it.

I think that if the contractor could open it's books and show the losses and moneys that they could not retrieve from clients then an assessment could be made on each contractors circumstances.

Anyone then that has a high precentage of profit would have to back pay and anyone that didn't doesn't have to pay. That wouldn't close any busineses down and would to me be fair.

P. Breathnach

wexford202 wrote: »

I think there is a link from Pat Kennys radio one show. The remarks of Eamon Devoy were the interesting ones. he seemed delighted that he managed to F%$K the country up for a day or two

I don't have a link, and can't conveniently find one. I heard it live. Parlon likened the TEEU to lunatics, which is hardly the sort of language that conditions people for negotiating in a constructive spirit.

wexford202's post reinforces my point that "somewhat less attention is being paid to ... the intemperate remarks of Tom Parlon."

wexford202

Well at the end of the day Tom Parlon has the whole construction industry to tuck in under his wings compared to the TEEU with just electrical and not even too many of them.

I wouldn't blame him as I would take my hat off to him.

There is nothing going to be decided over a cup of tea some scones and polite chat.

Did you ever see the Dail?

oscarBravo

wexford202 wrote: »

There is nothing going to be decided over a cup of tea some scones and polite chat.

I think I've achieved a lot more through friendly negotiation in my life than I ever have through conflict.

Did you ever see the Dail?

I wouldn't hold up the Dáil as an example of a rational decision-making body.

wexford202

oscarBravo wrote: »

I think I've achieved a lot more through friendly negotiation in my life than I ever have through conflict. I wouldn't hold up the Dáil as an example of a rational decision-making body.

Yes but they do pass our laws etc

I don't think anyone could have a proper conversation with Eamon Devoy. If you knew him you would know what a patronising arse he is

P. Breathnach

wexford202 wrote: »

... I don't think anyone could have a proper conversation with Eamon Devoy. If you knew him you would know what a patronising arse he is

You post like this with no sense of irony?

nextbigthing

Did anyone see the sparks from Lara electrical on the TV3 news ?

What a pair of muppets basically they have decided to ignore the strike and to continue working !
this company also trades as Lara Alarms my friend worked for them at the height of the boom and back then they never paid travel time or time and a half

some people are just doormats ! !

dvpower

nextbigthing wrote: »

some people are just doormats ! !

Doormats who'll be able to pay their mortgages this month.


To be honest, I can't see the electricians coming out on top in this dispute. It'll probably end with a very modest increase, if anything.

The unions picked an inopportune time to stage a strike. If employers start to up the ante with large scale layoffs, this could get very ugly. I wonder do the electricians (the workers, not the union bosses) have the stomach for a long drawn out dispute.

2011

The point is they did not pick the time to strike, it was picked for them! The rate was frozen by the high court 2 years ago!

Karlos_Sparky

Just thought I'd wade in - I'm a 3rd year apprentice working for one of Irelands largest electrical contractors and based in a large manufacturing facility (no names but i'm sure u can guess).

I'm 30, I have a young daughter and bills like everyone else and I need this strike like a hole in the head ... but i'm supporting it and picketing like everyone else. The crux of the argument is money ... we all know the rates and there seems to be a feeling that electricians are overpayed - how so ? They are highly skilled tradesmen/women who serve a 4 year apprenticeship and after thats done it takes another 5 years to reach the headline rate of pay of €21.49. Name another trade/profesion/doctrine that takes 9 years to complete just to earn a basic rate of pay.

Plus let us not forget in my first year I was shovelling the sh*t & earning €6.22 an hour - over €2.00 less then the minimum wage. There has to be a kickback ?!?

Now the employer groups want to go back on agreements they can well afford - the arguments over future pay rates is for another day but it doesn't look good - but we are OWED this money - it's not a new request for money it's an OUTSTANDING request for money that we have EARNED and that the contractors have CHARGED their clients for.

Plus they now want to use unskilled labour to do much of the work an electrician does - thus lowering the standards it has taken the industry so long to achieve and lowering the employment prospects for fully qualified tradesmen.

As for Eamon - he is an amazing trade unionist and every other union wishes they had a general secretary who fights like he does for their rights - he was given a mandate to seek these moneys and working conditions and he is going for it - and he has our unfaltering support. Let's be clear on this - do you really think ICTU would be rolling out behind us if the consequences of this argument don't affect everyone else ? If our REA (Registered employment agreement) is turned on it's head it will be catastrophic for hundreds of other industries/disiciplines in this state and the race to the bottom will really begin.

And to top it all off I was put on temporary release today - what a kick in the nether regions that was but it's just another bully tactic by the rich contractors to instill fear - well guess what - didn't work did it ? Now i'm really pis**d and I will picket with more vigour than before - this will be a landmark strike and you can all thank us when it's over for fighting for everyone who wants to preserve their working rights and conditions.

And as for the argument we are involved in "economic sabotage" - Hello banks anyone ??? We didn't get the country into this mess and we WILL NOT be made to pay for it.

Just another thought - none of the "rogue" contractors shown on TV are wearing gloves or glasses while working - employee well being is obviously not top of the list for these boyos - race to the bottom folks

ixoy

How many hours of work a week do you do? 21.49 is still a pretty good wage - it's not "basic" as it's above the industrial wage and I believe that there's other costs you can claim too if you've to travel a little distance?

I don't believe other people will be thanking you however when they're let go from their company due to profit drops/losses caused by the dispute. Some of them made a choice on this but other innocent workers will be affected who aren't involve (e.g. the threat of Cadbury's which reported a loss last quarter IIRC and thus are in financial difficulties as it is).

All this "we didn't cause this", "the fat cats must pay" argument can't really wash as their salaries combined won't be nearly as high as a 10% increase for 8000 workers. Those costs will just make hiring you more unattractive for any future projects, not to mention the stigma associated with striking.

You might get some support on the ground from your fellow workers but the people you need to look to in the future - the contractors, the people who fund and initiate projects that will pay you, might now get cold feet at the thought of employing you in the same numbers as before and may decide to look elsewhere for their future electricians as they'll recall how you ground their projects to a halt and how a spirited strike ultimately upset their balance books in a way they aren't willing to tolerate.

Karlos_Sparky

ixoy wrote: »

How many hours of work a week do you do? 21.49 is still a pretty good wage - it's not "basic" as it's above the industrial wage and I believe that there's other costs you can claim too if you've to travel a little distance?

I do 39 hours per week and I get paid travel time - let's not forget tradesmen are also journeymen and we might be working on the otherside of the country/continent next week for our employer - we don't have "location security" so travel time is fair and just.

ixoy wrote: »

their salaries combined won't be nearly as high as a 10% increase for 8000 workers. Those costs will just make hiring you more unattractive for any future projects, not to mention the stigma associated with striking.

Does nobody understand that they increase we are looking for has already been charged for by our employers to their clients and is sitting in their bank account gaining interest ? Are we just to let it slide ? Get real, this is theft by any name

ixoy wrote: »

You might get some support on the ground from your fellow workers but the people you need to look to in the future

I AM the future - I'm an apprentice and i'm fighting for my working conditions for the future - with no REA the only legally enforcable pay rate is the minimum wage of €8.65 per hour. I am not going to struggle on an apprentices wage just to be paid that when the dust settles.

ixoy wrote: »

get cold feet at the thought of employing you in the same numbers as before and may decide to look elsewhere for their future electricians

With the REA intact they have no choice but to pay the correct rates for their electricians no matter where they source them from.

irish_bob

Karlos_Sparky wrote: »

I do 39 hours per week and I get paid travel time - let's not forget tradesmen are also journeymen and we might be working on the otherside of the country/continent next week for our employer - we don't have "location security" so travel time is fair and just.



Does nobody understand that they increase we are looking for has already been charged for by our employers to their clients and is sitting in their bank account gaining interest ? Are we just to let it slide ? Get real, this is theft by any name



I AM the future - I'm an apprentice and i'm fighting for my working conditions for the future - with no REA the only legally enforcable pay rate is the minimum wage of €8.65 per hour. I am not going to struggle on an apprentices wage just to be paid that when the dust settles.



With the REA intact they have no choice but to pay the correct rates for their electricians no matter where they source them from.

I AM THE FUTURE , lol , you dont suffer from modesty , thats for sure , you wont be as arrogant when your out of a job , electricans like all tradesmen have had ten golden years , sparkys are ten a penny right now and will soon be ten a penny on the dole , reality obviously has not set in with a sizeable number of the population yet , the good times are over , all bets are off now and so too are agreements made several years ago , i thought such a sense of entitlement only existed in the public sector

djpbarry

Karlos_Sparky wrote: »

They are highly skilled tradesmen/women who serve a 4 year apprenticeship and after thats done it takes another 5 years to reach the headline rate of pay of €21.49. Name another trade/profesion/doctrine that takes 9 years to complete just to earn a basic rate of pay.

As ixoy has already said, nobody in their right mind could call €21.49 a “basic” rate of pay. I have been “in training” in my area of expertise for close to 8 years now and I don’t earn anywhere near that kind of money (and I won’t any time soon either).

Karlos_Sparky wrote: »

Does nobody understand that they increase we are looking for has already been charged for by our employers to their clients and is sitting in their bank account gaining interest ?

Is it not fair to say that’s an assumption?

Dob74

irish_bob wrote: »

I AM THE FUTURE , lol , you dont suffer from modesty , thats for sure , you wont be as arrogant when your out of a job , electricans like all tradesmen have had ten golden years , sparkys are ten a penny right now and will soon be ten a penny on the dole , reality obviously has not set in with a sizeable number of the population yet , the good times are over , all bets are off now and so too are agreements made several years ago , i thought such a sense of entitlement only existed in the public sector

There has been ten golden years but union pay has only gone up with inflation. The only way to make serious money as a tradesmen is to be self employed and that at the moment is not desirable.

I cant understand why people would begrudge someone earning 40-50k a year. Its the irish peasant mentality, pull those around you down to make you feel better about yourself. Rather than saying fair play they work hard for there money.

The annoying thing is employers charge about 40 euro an hour to there clients for day work. They dont want to shave anything off there margin.

LoLth

just like to say thanks to Karlos Sparky for giving his view of things. As far as pay is concerned, if the wage increase was awarded a year ago, they are owed it. they've worked that year under that agreement. I said before, it has been factored into the contract costs by the contract companies so someone somewhere has this additional 10%. I think its only fair that it goes to the workers who have earned it, regardless of their pay level, a deal is a deal.

however, at the end of the current contract, a new deal should be made, this one putting up the proposal for the 11% decrease in wages. then, if a new contract is offered or a new project tendered, the costings can reflect this decrease in costs.

this would be fair to the client and the worker. the only one not profiting is the contract company, they're not making a loss either, they're just making their expected profit margin.

@irish bob : if you cant describe an apprentice as the future of a craft/profession then what is? if there arent any apprentices then eventually there'll be no electricians (unless we freeze a few,then when the power goes and they thaw out they can fix the problem! no need to call them ) nice to see though that you still manage to get a dig at the public sector even in a thread that has nothing to do with that. I'm sure electricians are well aware that there are lean times ahead, I'd guess that this is part of the reason why they'd like to get the pay increase that they are owed for services already rendered, on contracts that have already been agreed. Then, once the demand drops off and the rates are lowered they'll probably have something in reserve to weather it out.(removing this bit as it would mean reading back through those posts and seriously, I dont think I've read a list of as many negative and bitter posts in my life - and that includes having read several teen angst poetry pages!).

.G.

ixoy wrote: »

How many hours of work a week do you do? 21.49 is still a pretty good wage - it's not "basic" as it's above the industrial wage and

Regardless of anyones opinion on the rights and wrongs of the current dispute,throughout this argument I've never understood how people in their right mind can compare an electricians wage rate with that of the average industrial wage.

Its not an "average" job is it?

Its a highly skilled job and is very much deserving of a wage rate higher than those earning the average industrial wage.

Seriously the amount of learning involved,both during apprenticeship and all through a sparks working life is uncomparable to any of the other trades,including plumbers who get paid more,let alone the average industrial worker.

wexford202

superg wrote: »

Regardless of anyones opinion on the rights and wrongs of the current dispute,throughout this argument I've never understood how people in their right mind can compare an electricians wage rate with that of the average industrial wage.

Its not an "average" job is it?

Its a highly skilled job and is very much deserving of a wage rate higher than those earning the average industrial wage.

Seriously the amount of learning involved,both during apprenticeship and all through a sparks working life is uncomparable to any of the other trades,including plumbers who get paid more,let alone the average industrial worker.

I agree that the electrians trade i a difficult trade to learn however an egineers trade is every bit as hard and technical.

There are some very poor quality electricians out there too. Believe me I have come across many of them.

I do not think that the electrician is 'very much deserving of a wage higher than those earning the average industrial wage'.

It is the company who has to stand over the work. It is the company that has to take the fall for any unsafe work carried ou by electricians' and it is the company that is responsible for ensuring each home or apartment owner is safe in their dwelling and free from the risk of fires etc.

The electrician can always walk away.

I value electrcians but I wouldn't be too quick to be pining medals to them.

sovtek

superg wrote: »

Regardless of anyones opinion on the rights and wrongs of the current dispute,throughout this argument I've never understood how people in their right mind can compare an electricians wage rate with that of the average industrial wage.

Its not an "average" job is it?

Its a highly skilled job and is very much deserving of a wage rate higher than those earning the average industrial wage.

Seriously the amount of learning involved,both during apprenticeship and all through a sparks working life is uncomparable to any of the other trades,including plumbers who get paid more,let alone the average industrial worker.

I was a electricians apprentice breifly in my early twenties back in La Merica. I would agree that it's highly skilled, hard work and can be very dangerous.
I never will forget pulling a large bundle of cable through about 50 yards of conduit, covered in that goop they used to lubricate it. Not that it applies here but the 35 degree heat didn't make it any more pleasant.
I also had to strip several coils of underground cable of it's insulation so the company could recycle the copper wire. Took me two days and also in the 35 degree heat.

LoLth

wexford202 wrote: »

The electrician can always walk away.

I value electrcians but I wouldn't be too quick to be pining medals to them.

especially if they are holding crocodile clips and you dont have rubber gloves on