Electricians Strike

brianthebard

Taxipete29 wrote: »

I am all for workers rights and I do realise that there are compnies using the guise of the recession to make cuts to prop up inflated profits. The point here is the construction industry is in big trouble and restraint is needed to protect the jobs that have not already been lost.

I spoke to a bank worker the other day. She told me her union wanted to go for a pay increase. The workers rejected the proposal as it made no sense in the current climate to jeopardise employment levels. Also there would be little public support for pay increases in a sector that is partly responsible for our current predicament.

This is a responsible attitude. I have no problem with unions, having been a member of several in the past( including the TEEU). They do however tend to be self serving in alot of cases. They have been known to create situations where none existed prior to their meddling. If people are happy and have no issues their relevance is diminished.

Partnership has worked very well in the past for this country. When times were good workers were well paid and taxed very little. Now those times have gone it its time for further restraint. Its a ridiculous notion to be seeking an 11% increase when inflation is -5%. Increasing wages does not grow the economy. Investment and development grows the economy. Exports grow the economy. None of these can be acheived if the cost of doing business is too high.

Why is inflation in negative numbers though? At least partly due to the fact that people aren't buying as much as they used to. Now I'm not arguing for an increase in mindless spending, or that housing should again become the main source of revenue, but investment and development can't take the place of consumer spending either, only consumer spending can do that. I imagine that at some point spending will normalise at some level between that of the present and the height of the boom.

Irish products are disappearing from supermarket shelves as they are too expensive relative to cheaper imports. Why??? because they are too expensive to produce. This is not just about wages. Its about all costs including electricity, rates and so forth.

Electricians and the unions need to realise that if they do get their increase many more of them and their members will be on the dole queue before the summer is over.

Expensive to produce relative to what? Irish beef isn't expensive, and the majority of the countries farmers are barely breaking even on their production, so why are they still 'too expensive'? because outside producers with lower standards of living, standards of quality, and even more impoverished farmers are undercutting Irish farmers. As I said earlier, Ireland is never going to be able to compete with the third world again, so cutting costs (which means wages and workers generally) and trying to compete is not going to be successful.

brianthebard

astrofool wrote: »

Maybe not, but, do you think being competitive against the first world might be an idea?

I must admit I haven't looked at the figures, but most of the companies supposed to be leaving Ireland are not intending to go to the US, France, Britain, etc are they? Its generally a move to South/Latin America, China, India that's predicted.

Taxipete29

brianthebard wrote: »

Why is inflation in negative numbers though? At least partly due to the fact that people aren't buying as much as they used to. Now I'm not arguing for an increase in mindless spending, or that housing should again become the main source of revenue, but investment and development can't take the place of consumer spending either, only consumer spending can do that. I imagine that at some point spending will normalise at some level between that of the present and the height of the boom.

Investment and development create jobs which allows consumers to spend. If they have no jobs, how are they supposed to get money to spend. You seem to be under the impression that people are just not spending. Those that have money are more restrained with their spending yes, but they still need to buy clothes and food. There are several hundred thousand consumers who have seen their spending power reduced to nothing. Creating jobs is the only way to correct this.

brianthebard wrote: »

Expensive to produce relative to what? Irish beef isn't expensive, and the majority of the countries farmers are barely breaking even on their production, so why are they still 'too expensive'? because outside producers with lower standards of living, standards of quality, and even more impoverished farmers are undercutting Irish farmers. As I said earlier, Ireland is never going to be able to compete with the third world again, so cutting costs (which means wages and workers generally) and trying to compete is not going to be successful.

I am not talking about competing with the third world. As mentioned above what about competing with the first world. I dont know alot about the beef industry but I do know its more expensive to buy beef here than it is in other parts of the EU. I was under the impression it wasnt permitted to import beef from non-EU countries( maybe Im wrong). The point being other countries in the EU are less expensive to operate in than Ireland.

brianthebard

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Investment and development create jobs which allows consumers to spend. If they have no jobs, how are they supposed to get money to spend. You seem to be under the impression that people are just not spending. Those that have money are more restrained with their spending yes, but they still need to buy clothes and food. There are several hundred thousand consumers who have seen their spending power reduced to nothing. Creating jobs is the only way to correct this.

Ok I can agree with that but its still a medium long term effort.

I am not talking about competing with the third world. As mentioned above what about competing with the first world. I dont know alot about the beef industry but I do know its more expensive to buy beef here than it is in other parts of the EU. I was under the impression it wasnt permitted to import beef from non-EU countries( maybe Im wrong). The point being other countries in the EU are less expensive to operate in than Ireland.

80% of Irish beef is exported, mainly to the EU, so it must not be that expensive. There was a ban on Brazilian beef for a while but I'm pretty sure its been overturned a while now. As for competing with First world countries, again I just don't see South Korea or Britain taking jobs from Ireland. Yes we probably are more expensive than a lot of countries but not by that much imo. And we all know that Ireland's corporate tax rate is still very attractive to companies, which has pissed off France and other EU members in the past.

nesf

Taxipete29 wrote: »

I am not talking about competing with the third world. As mentioned above what about competing with the first world. I dont know alot about the beef industry but I do know its more expensive to buy beef here than it is in other parts of the EU. I was under the impression it wasnt permitted to import beef from non-EU countries( maybe Im wrong). The point being other countries in the EU are less expensive to operate in than Ireland.

Beef prices here have more to do with the general cost of living and wage levels here than anything else. People can afford to pay more, ergo they are charged more. This will reverse itself to some extent in the coming years with the recession but the bottom line is that we have some of the highest wages in Europe and as such we can expect to pay the some of the highest prices for most goods.

Taxipete29

brianthebard wrote: »

Ok I can agree with that but its still a medium long term effort.

There are no quick fixes to our current economic position. What the Government and companies have done to this point is triage. They have tried to stop the bleeding. Then they have to actually fix the problem.

brianthebard wrote: »

80% of Irish beef is exported, mainly to the EU, so it must not be that expensive. There was a ban on Brazilian beef for a while but I'm pretty sure its been overturned a while now. As for competing with First world countries, again I just don't see South Korea or Britain taking jobs from Ireland. Yes we probably are more expensive than a lot of countries but not by that much imo. And we all know that Ireland's corporate tax rate is still very attractive to companies, which has pissed off France and other EU members in the past.

Our tourist industry has suffered hugely as a result of the high cost of living in this country. Its too expensive for people to visit, so they go elsewhere. I accept that the weak dollar and sterling have also had an effect, but the problems started before that happened.

nesf wrote: »

Beef prices here have more to do with the general cost of living and wage levels here than anything else. People can afford to pay more, ergo they are charged more. This will reverse itself to some extent in the coming years with the recession but the bottom line is that we have some of the highest wages in Europe and as such we can expect to pay the some of the highest prices for most goods.

I accept this. It is however a cycle which needs to be broken. Higher prices and higher wages go hand in hand. Its a bit like the chicken and the egg. Both need to be brought down for this country to survive this crisis.

The point is while the electricians may not deserve their wages to be cut, they certainly do not deserve a wage increase.

nesf

Taxipete29 wrote: »

I accept this. It is however a cycle which needs to be broken. Higher prices and higher wages go hand in hand. Its a bit like the chicken and the egg. Both need to be brought down for this country to survive this crisis.

Indeed, it's counter-intuitive to many but one of the easiest ways to make people worse off is to give everyone a raise in pay/benefits.

turgon

brianthebard wrote: »

80% of Irish beef is exported, mainly to the EU, so it must not be that expensive. There was a ban on Brazilian beef for a while but I'm pretty sure its been overturned a while now.

Well given the fact that a) Irish Farming is hugely subsidized by the EU through the CAP and b) that Brazilian beef is put under huge tariffs and taxes when entering the EU, the real cost of Irish Beef is probably very much greater than that of Brazil.

alphamale 1

The cost of Beef is much higher in this country for several reasons in comparison to Brazil.

The cost of compliance with EU regulations including the Nitrates Directive, Animal Welfare, traceability accounts for major extra expense on Irish Farmers. Secondly, the Brazilian have little or no traceability of Beef from Farm to Fork along with enjoying the benefits of economies of scales. In reality it is the factories that are making ALL THE MONEY

irish_bob

alphamale 1 wrote: »

The cost of Beef is much higher in this country for several reasons in comparison to Brazil.

The cost of compliance with EU regulations including the Nitrates Directive, Animal Welfare, traceability accounts for major extra expense on Irish Farmers. Secondly, the Brazilian have little or no traceability of Beef from Farm to Fork along with enjoying the benefits of economies of scales. In reality it is the factories that are making ALL THE MONEY

i was born on a farm , its the retailers who are making all the money when it comes to both meat and milk , as for the regulations farmers in this country have to abide by , this is true , they exist primarily so as to keep 6000 civil servants at the dept of agriculture in jobs , tracability is another word for beauracracy , i seriously doubt brazil has one civil servant for every 17 full time farmers

alphamale 1

I agree somewhat with you. The retailers and the factories are controlling price paid to farmers.

It is also important to bear in mind all the small part type farmers who need advice and assitance with schemes and REPS

Karlos_Sparky

***** FROM RTE.IE ********

The Labour Court has recommended a 4.9% pay increase for electricians.

The first increase of 2.5% will be introduced in September with the second to be implemented on 1 January next year.

The recommendation by the Court is non-binding and all of the parties involved will now separately decide whether to accept or reject it.
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However, the TEEU, which represents 10,500 workers has welcomed the proposal.

In a statement, the union said any decision will be conditional on how the employers react to the recommendation.

The union's national executive is to meet in Dublin tomorrow.

More than 10,000 electricians have been on strike since Monday in a row over pay.

The dispute has resulted in work stoppages at hundreds of construction sites around the country.

The Taoiseach has called on both sides in the dispute to engage constructively in talks, saying the wider economy was being damaged as the strike continued.

mike65

Just announced - strike defered until Thursday. Pickets being lifted.

alphamale 1

Good outcome for Union but will employers agree to it and if they do will they just get their own one back on the employees but letting some of them go or putting them on 3- day weeks

jabbertalky

Good job, this shows why we need the unions in this country. More power to yiz, :pac:

yoshytoshy

The raise should be based on future projects ,otherwise the standards in work will probably fall in the future.

astrofool

2 things will happen.

NI companies will win a lot more contracts

A lot of electricians will be let go.

wexford202

jabbertalky wrote: »

Good job, this shows why we need the unions in this country. More power to yiz, :pac:

The only reason why the strike has been deferred is because the CIF holidays are starting this Friday. If the union were contiuing to strike their members would not be entitled to their holiday pay as they would be on strike and therefore the union would have to pay out two weeks striking money when their members would not be striking.

There still has been no agreement. The AECI is wanting to Ballot their members to see if the employers are happy with this pay rise. The employers will most likely not agree. Then the union will have to re ballot their members to see if they want to start striking again which they probably won't so it is still very doubtful that the union will win this battle

Hoagy

wexford202 wrote: »

The only reason why the strike has been deferred is because the CIF holidays are starting this Friday. If the union were contiuing to strike their members would not be entitled to their holiday pay as they would be on strike and therefore the union would have to pay out two weeks striking money when their members would not be striking.

There still has been no agreement. The AECI is wanting to Ballot their members to see if the employers are happy with this pay rise. The employers will most likely not agree. Then the union will have to re ballot their members to see if they want to start striking again which they probably won't so it is still very doubtful that the union will win this battle

You could be right there..

From the TEEU statement:

Should either or both of the employers bodies refuse to accept the Labour Court Recommendation then the dispute will be reactivated, subsequent to the builders holidays, and the ICTU All-Out Picket will be vigorously pursued.

djpbarry

brianthebard wrote: »

Cutting workers wages decreases exchequer income now...

But decreasing wages may allow businesses to hang onto more of their staff.

brianthebard wrote: »

Expensive to produce relative to what?

Imports.

brianthebard wrote: »

As for competing with First world countries, again I just don't see South Korea or Britain taking jobs from Ireland. Yes we probably are more expensive than a lot of countries but not by that much imo.

A weekend away in any British city, even London, will show you that prices in this country can still fall much further – Dublin, for example, is still ranked (by Mercer) as the 25th most expensive city in the world.

djpbarry

dan_d wrote: »

There is possibly some merit in saying that companies who can afford to should pay. Mind you, that might lead to outright mutiny, because it unfair in it's own way too. There has to be an outcome that treats everyone the same unfortunately.

Why does everyone have to be treated the same? I don’t understand why every electrician is deserving of the same rate of pay? Does every member of the TEEU deserve a pay rise? There must be some slackers in there.

brianthebard

djpbarry wrote: »

But decreasing wages may allow businesses to hang onto more of their staff.
Imports.

Imports from where?

A weekend away in any British city, even London, will show you that prices in this country can still fall much further – Dublin, for example, is still ranked (by Mercer) as the 25th most expensive city in the world.

I don't see what holidays away, involving hotels, resturants, etc have to do with investing in Ireland?

djpbarry

brianthebard wrote: »

Imports from where?

Anywhere. If something costs more to produce domestically than it does to import, then generally it makes sense to import.

brianthebard wrote: »

I don't see what holidays away, involving hotels, resturants, etc have to do with investing in Ireland?

What I meant is that I spend a good deal of time in the UK (London, Birmingham and Glasgow in particular), where the cost of living is noticeably lower than in Ireland. There was an article in The Tribune on the subject recently:

The cost of living in Ireland is falling faster than any other country in the EU as the supermarket price war begins to benefit consumers. It's not all good news, though, as prices remain 20% higher here than the eurozone average, despite the fact that the EU's harmonised consumer price index shows that prices here have fallen by 1.7% in the last year.

http://www.tribune.ie/business/news/article/2009/jul/12/cost-of-living-plummets-but-still-leads-europe

StupidLikeAFox

First of all sorry for dragging this up if its too old!

Like Karlos Sparky I just thought I'd row in with my two and sixpence, I disagree with a couple of things you've said in your first post and I'd just like to throw them out and see what people think.

Karlos_Sparky wrote: »

The crux of the argument is money ... we all know the rates and there seems to be a feeling that electricians are overpayed - how so ? They are highly skilled tradesmen/women who serve a 4 year apprenticeship and after thats done it takes another 5 years to reach the headline rate of pay of €21.49. Name another trade/profesion/doctrine that takes 9 years to complete just to earn a basic rate of pay.

The consensus (i would think) is not that electricians are OVERPAYED but in fact fairly well paid. The apprenticeship served is 4 years, after the first year of you recieve a wage over the minimum wage and by the end of the four years a guaranteed E20+ an hour. There is very few college courses or other jobs which guarantee this level of pay immediately after qualification. On top of this is an extra E180 a week subsistence pay. That, I think most would agree, is a fairly well paid job, especially in an occupation where labour supply is extremely high and theres no shortage of electricians.

Now the employer groups want to go back on agreements they can well afford - the arguments over future pay rates is for another day but it doesn't look good - but we are OWED this money - it's not a new request for money it's an OUTSTANDING request for money that we have EARNED and that the contractors have CHARGED their clients for.

THIS I would think is the crux of the argument and one which has not been focused on as much as is deserved, I would think. In fact it brings up two main problems relating to the strike.

First of all the employer groups who made this agreements are not representative of the industry at large. The ECA (~50 members, i think) and the AECI (~250 members, i think) were the ones who were involved in the negotiations. The NECI was set up last year and now has a membership of around 600 I think. The ECA represents the "big boys", the larger companies such as Mercury etc. whereas AFAIK NECI represents the small to medium, not reall sure about the AECI.

In relation to the increase due last year, this was challenged by the NECI and the AECI last year. The labour court ruled around march i think that this increase should not go ahead. Therefore this increase never came into ffect. The TEEU was present at these hearings and had the chance to state their case there.

Also it should be pointed out that when companies are tendering for jobs, they do not necassarily state which rate of pay they are paying their employees. So saying they charged prices for the increase and didnt pass it on is INCORRECT. The contractor submits a tender based on what they choose to pay the employee. If the contractor is charging E5 or E22 an hour it is a matter for epace etc, effectively the client just agrees to the bottom line (among other conditions such as competency, technical qualifications etc.)

Plus they now want to use unskilled labour to do much of the work an electrician does - thus lowering the standards it has taken the industry so long to achieve and lowering the employment prospects for fully qualified tradesmen.

I would imagine this low skilled labour would be employed to do much of the "**** shovelling" you complained about doing in your first year, manual work like puling a cable from A to B, cleaning up on sites, making tea etc. This would allow the electricians to do what they do best, and allow apprentices learn quicker and better instead of spending their time "shovelling ****"

And to top it all off I was put on temporary release today - what a kick in the nether regions that was but it's just another bully tactic by the rich contractors to instill fear - well guess what - didn't work did it ?

This is another theme recurring throughout the thread. I tend to agree with you here, it was the big contractors who negotiated the REA (via the ECA) which I would imagine your employer is part of. It is fair to say that they negotiated it from their point of view, as opposed to a smaller contractors, therefore they should be the ones to stick to it. However it is also fair to say that not all employers use these bully boy tactics, especially smaller organisations where there is a more personal level of interaction between senior management and the frontline. Now this agreement was negotiated without taking these employers into account, and now as they struggle to keep afloat they are powerless to negotiate new terms with their employees, and their employees cannot decide to a reduction in wages even if they wanted to.


Also, here's a bit of background to how this came about. It was discovered a few years ago that a significant number of contractors were non compliant with the REA, mostly due to the fact that they were unaware of it. In response to this (the infamous) ePace was set up to regulate and advise contractors the industry and enforce the REA. ePace however became notorious for their heavy handed tactics, terrorizing employers and ordering insane amounts of backpay, along with allegations of targeting the little guy and turning a blind eye ECA and AECI members, which led to smaller employers coming together to challenge the REA, the LC ruling against the pay increase and, now, the electricians strike (this is mostly sourced from the Labour Court Hearing in March btw).

2011

The consensus (i would think) is not that electricians are OVERPAYED but in fact fairly well paid.

I would agree, but most electricians have a short career. Who wants to employ a 50 year old electrician? The money most also reflect the dangers posed to working as an electrician. I have been on more than one site when an electrician has been killed.

On top of this is an extra E180 a week subsistence pay

Sometimes! It depends on how far away the job is.

Would you think that 180 euros per week extra is worth it if you live in Dublin and are sent to work on a job in Cork for 6 months? This is what happens. When you are sent to a "country job" generally you do not know how long for. This can be difficult if you are married.

Many apprentices and electricians living in Dublin working for a large well known electrical contractor have been sent to the Corrib Gas Project! Would that really be worth 180 euro extra a week ???

....... labour supply is extremely high and theres no shortage of electricians.

True. From what I have seen the standard and type of electricians vary a lot. I think there should be different pay levels for different types of electricians. Most first year apprentices should be able to wire a house and some electricians never work on anything more complicated than a "standard" house. In industry thing can get far more complicated and challanging.

First of all the employer groups who made this agreements are not representative of the industry at large

+1, they employ about 5% of all electricians in the country!

AFAIK NECI represents the small to medium

Correct
neci.ie

Also it should be pointed out that when companies are tendering for jobs, they do not necassarily state which rate of pay they are paying their employees

Exactly. Some Government contracts were recently renegotiated at 8% less than agreed!

ePace however became notorious for their heavy handed tactics, terrorizing employers and ordering insane amounts of backpay

Which resulted in many electricians being let go!

djpbarry

2011 wrote: »

...most electricians have a short career. Who wants to employ a 50 year old electrician?

Who wouldn't? With age comes experience, surely?

2011 wrote: »

The money most also reflect the dangers posed to working as an electrician. I have been on more than one site when an electrician has been killed.

But what is the probability of an electrician being killed "in the line of duty"? I would argue that if they are doing their job properly, then the risk should be minimal.

According to the ETCI, there have been 40 fatal electrical accidents over the last 10 years, but in the majority of cases, the victims were not electricians.

2011

Who wouldn't?

Most electrical contractors. Believe me I have seen it. Many people that are not electricians do not realise just how physicl the work can be. Below I have given just a few of 100s of examples, I could go on!

Domestic work can involve:

• Taking a kango to a wall for many hours
• moving furniture so that floor boards can be lifted to route cables
• climbing into very cramped attic spaces

Industrial work can involve:

• Climbing up and down scaffolding many times
• Bending cables that are thicker than your arm (this is harder than it sounds)
• Cable pulling (with large cables this can be like tug of war and can last for days)
• Assyembling panels that weigh several tons and may be 30m long

With age comes experience, surely?

Yes, but experience alone is not enough, an electrician needs to be productive to stay employed. A lucky few become foremen when they are "past it", but you need many more indians than chiefs!

But what is the probability of an electrician being killed "in the line of duty"?

Slim I admit, but the probibility of being injured at work is high. The last year I can find for stats for is 2005 when there was 5,700 non fatal injuries on Irish construction sites.

So far in 2009 there has been 5 fatal accidents on Irish construction sites.

It is dangerous enough on sites without electricity!

Riskymove

2011 wrote: »

Working on construction sites is very dangerous full stop! Working with electricity makes it more dangerous.

while its far from like-for-like, more construction workers have been killed at work than gardai (who are generally viewed as putting themselves at risk)

irish_bob

Riskymove wrote: »

while its far from like-for-like, more construction workers have been killed at work than gardai (who are generally viewed as putting themselves at risk)

slightly off topic but the job with by far the highest number of injuries and fatalitys is the farming sector

Ordinary man

Nobody so far has mentioned the common theory floating around about this striking. Rumour has it that the unions subscriptions had dropped substantively and they needed to get more sparks to sign up. When they started talking about getting better rates and what the empoyers were planning, they suddenly had a lot of new and old members sign up