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http://www.no-spec.com
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03-07-2009 7:16pm#1
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Deliverance wrote: »Interesting links there Baggio, thanks. Some v.good points made in those links which I experienced myself as a newbie to this area at one time (starting out).
Thanks... I was the same too. As soon as people found out that I was a designer many of them would wanted stuff for free ("Ah sure, it's just a bit of doodling"). Admittedly, I fell for a few of the traps in my early days when I was trying to break into the industry so to speak. However, it didn't take me too long to realize just what was going on. Experience is a wonderful source of learning.
Deliverance wrote: »I do feel strongly about this, it is a v.valid point which I really feel is being missed. If some other folks feel just as adversely strongly then they should try spending 4yrs of hell trying to prove themselves before offering any type of critisism about freebies.
I'm the same, I'm very passionate about the subject too, and I also trained hard in college. Most people simply don't understand what's involved in a creating process. They only see the end result which appears "simple" to the untrained eye. However, they don't realize that it can take many iterations to get something just right, and even when you feel it's spot on, the client has to have his or her say (more changes will inevitably follow and even more time is clocked up). So the process can be a very protracted affair even for an experienced designer.Deliverance wrote: »Granted I will happily help anyone out no prob at all. But I refuse to do it if I feel that it will undermine the profession.
Again, totally I'm with you... I've helped plenty of people out in the past as best I could. But I draw the line at helping people who just want something for nothing, and then simply don't appreciate it. I never considered myself aa "mercenary". I see nothing wrong with getting paid for what you do. Giving out free advise on a forum is not the same as sitting down to do a project where you devote considerable personal time and effort.
Alas, the Design industry is probably one of the only industries where people feel it's appropriate to ask for your personal time, and then get upset when you say "no", or ask about money. If any such poster tired that on another design forum - like creative Ireland for example. They'd be shot down very quickly, as it's something you just don't do. There should be no special revelations here either... Imagine what would happen if you went into a garage, and asked for a free "tune up" (no need to explain) - So why should we be an exception? Now, if you met a mechanic in the pub, or on a forum, and asked him for a bit of advise thats one thing. It's not comparable to him popping up to you gaff, and getting his overalls on and getting stuck into your car. That's just my opinion anyway...
Cheers,
B.0 -
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If these people want to take the 'free' route where they get work finished to an unprofessional standard and where they possibly don't even own the copyright, then let them. There are some very good amateur designers who do it purely on a recreational basis though and these may be willing to work for the fun of it. .
Abosultey... again you get what you pay for.
I'm sure, as you said, that there are a few good amateurs out there. But I think most of them, even if they love it, would still like to be thrown a few quid. In fact I'd say thed even love it a bit more. Personally, I would always offer to pay someone for any work they'd do for me (regardless of the industry). But that's just me...Personally, if I want a logo made and look at two design companies websites, one offering to send me two no obligation drafts and the other not.... I know which one I'd be emailing.
Generally though, the better designers/agencies wont do that. So if you're after, in many cases, lower quality of work than that's fair enough - especially if money is a concern. I suppose like every other industry, you get what you pay for (as I said or should in theory).
There's a couple of reasons not to do spec work and the like... On show, there will be a companies portfolio, and form that, you should be able to decide if they are the right standard and style for you (or your company). So form their perspective - you have everything you need to see... If you have questions about certain aspects of certain work then of course you'd speak to someone, etc.
To equate it to another industry... Sure, you'd give someone a quote and relevant info' (try and work out a decent deal, etc). Lets say, if you built conservatories for a living, more than likely you can get a lad to come out to you house. Assess the situation and then quote you "x" amount. But what they wont do is start any type of work for you. That's what a pitch is for us... it would be the equivalent of someone starting work on a project that has nothing agreed. Risky at the best of times...
Secondly, most people have a number of projects going at any given time... So if you for example start working on a pitch, that will take away valuable time from other deadlines. If you offer a pitch in effect you could be in for quite a lot of work. Think of it this way, if I spend "X" amount of time on a certain pitch, for all I now they could have another 5 designers that are looking for a piece. I have no way of knowing how much time I should spend on it. it's an east trap to get stuck in - you'd feel that you have to spend more and more time on it just to compete. Then before you know it, you've put a lot of work in, and "hey presto" another designer may get the contract.having said that, competitions and no-spec work does have a purpose and does have a use. lets take an architect for example. its hard to make a name. its hard to make a reputation. it will be years before you have people seeking out your services in particular. Surely competitions etc are a good way to gain experience
I can't really speak from an Architects view point in fairness. But competitions are not all that high profile in our field, and in all honesty I can see them doing much for someones rep. However, it does depend on the motivations of who's is holding the competitions and how big they are, etc.
Spec Work for experience... Well, I think most of us have done a bit of this at the beginning. Again you'd really have to look at the motivations of the company doing it.
At the end of the day everyone has the right to do "spec work" if they want to. I got out of that trap very early on and I'm glad I did... Unfortunately, and it's recognized throughout the industry, that there are a lot of nasty guys out there - who often use these methods to take advantage of the inexperienced. It's an interesting topic all the same.
I like this guys stance on the issue:
http://www.davidairey.com/spec-work-in-graphic-design/0 -
I think that a lot of valuable information has been put up by Baggios links (having read them all and added them to my favourites) for further reference and advise to others. Excellent stuff there Baggio and a great attitude as well from your good self, kudos to you.Abosultey... again you get what you pay for.
I'm sure, as you said, that there are a few good amateurs out there. But I think most of them, even if they love it, would still like to be thrown a few quid. In fact I'd say thed even love it a bit more. Personally, I would always offer to pay someone for any work they'd do for me (regardless of the industry). But that's just me...
Generally though, the better designers/agencies wont do that. So if you're after, in many cases, lower quality of work than that's fair enough - especially if money is a concern. I suppose like every other industry, you get what you pay for (as I said or should in theory).
There's a couple of reasons not to do spec work and the like... On show, there will be a companies portfolio, and form that, you should be able to decide if they are the right standard and style for you (or your company). So form their perspective - you have everything you need to see... If you have questions about certain aspects of certain work then of course you'd speak to someone, etc.
To equate it to another industry... Sure, you'd give someone a quote and relevant info' (try and work out a decent deal, etc). Lets say, if you built conservatories for a living, more than likely you can get a lad to come out to you house. Assess the situation and then quote you "x" amount. But what they wont do is start any type of work for you. That's what a pitch is for us... it would be the equivalent of someone starting work on a project that has nothing agreed. Risky at the best of times...
Secondly, most people have a number of projects going at any given time... So if you for example start working on a pitch, that will take away valuable time from other deadlines. If you offer a pitch in effect you could be in for quite a lot of work. Think of it this way, if I spend "X" amount of time on a certain pitch, for all I now they could have another 5 designers that are looking for a piece. I have no way of knowing how much time I should spend on it. it's an east trap to get stuck in - you'd feel that you have to spend more and more time on it just to compete. Then before you know it, you've put a lot of work in, and "hey presto" another designer may get the contract.
I can't really speak from an Architects view point in fairness. But competitions are not all that high profile in our field, and in all honesty I can see them doing much for someones rep. However, it does depend on the motivations of who's is holding the competitions and how big they are, etc.
Spec Work for experience... Well, I think most of us have done a bit of this at the beginning. Again you'd really have to look at the motivations of the company doing it.
At the end of the day everyone has the right to do "spec work" if they want to. I got out of that trap very early on and I'm glad I did... Unfortunately, and it's recognized throughout the industry, that there are a lot of nasty guys out there - who often use these methods to take advantage of the inexperienced. It's an interesting topic all the same.
I like this guys stance on the issue:
http://www.davidairey.com/spec-work-in-graphic-design/
I also feel that a lot of newbies to the design area who are v.good at what they do (after 4yrs of training) will have concerns about what to charge, and indeed will want to know how to continue in said design profession after leaving college and stepping into the 'Wolves Den' I.e. the world of Business.
From personal experience newbies do get exploited more than one might think (If they let it happen). A real world experience I have had is: I worked for a company in the early days, it was admittedly work experience and a foot in the door type of thing. I actually lost money by doing this work because I wanted to build my confidence and get said experience.
I guess we will all have to do this as a self proving exercise as designers starting out as newbies. thats all well and good but if your 'worth your salt' so to speak then you need to up the anti and ask for your worth after this start period.
I set a time frame for myself I.e. the work experience pay lasted 3months by an unwritten contract. I was offered further work after this and said fair enough, I would love to work on for you guys, But I requested double the pay plus expenses, accomadation and travel and even got paid double for working at home for some of the time.
This just goes to show that a designers work is v.valuable, But it also is open to less confident folks than myself to be exploited due to lack of said confidence. (I was lucky enough to work with a decent bunch of guys who valued my work and paid out for work) We are talking thousands of euros here that was paid to me but it was peanuts compared to the investment involved in the company (7 million at the last count (big eco business)) on company development. They had no prob paying it out because the payback for the company was quite a lot.
They are now as far as I know a growing business, I feel absolutely priveleged for having the experience of working for them (great people). My portfolio will grow by them hopefully.
Ok that is my real life work that went well.
I think and hope that the debate and professed experience on this thread will help others starting out in this design biz get started in a positive way. I'm sure lot's of more helpful advice will be given as such.0 -
Deliverance wrote: »I think that a lot of valuable information has been put up by Baggios links (having read them all and added them to my favourites) for further reference and advise to others. Excellent stuff there Baggio and a great attitude as well from your good self, kudos to you.
Thanks! I apreciate the feedback. In fairness, the guys on "no spec" can articulate the augment much better than I could.
I take Scotty's points on board, and on the surface it seems okay to ask for free draft. But digging a little deeper, and then examining the process, and just what's involved it's not all that practical. The industry couldn't really function like that. Luckily it doesn't, and most of the decent firms (and freelancers) will not engage in it.
Spec Work probably works better where a company is very sizable, and they are pitching for big contracts which involve lots of cash. My old firm used to do this... however, were were all getting paid regardless, and if things were slow they'd always want us to be doing something... I can kinda' see the logic in that. Not much point in paying people to sit and do nothing all day.
On the other hand, "Spec Work" is a poor choice for a freelancer, or small company (for the reasons I stated in one of my earlier posts). Over the years I've been asked to do lots of it - with the further promise of big Contracts or future employment. In later years after gaining industry experience - I have always refused politely. And simply directed people to my portfolio... the ones that are serious call back. The ones that don't, are probably looking for cheaper work, and f course that's there prerogative to do so.Deliverance wrote: »I set a time frame for myself I.e. the work experience pay lasted 3months by an unwritten contract. I was offered further work after this and said fair enough, I would love to work on for you guys, But I requested double the pay plus expenses, accomadation and travel and even got paid double for working at home for some of the time.
Nice - That's the way to do it!...:) It's great that things worked out for you. A lot of my mates have been treated very badly in the past. Myself included... So I know exactly what you mean though - when you are trying to "find you feet" you don't really know what your actually worth. It's one thing they can't really teach you in college either...
After a while though, you begin to see the big picture. Now I've got to a point where I know exactly what I'm worth to a company, and I can call the shots to a certain extent. It's one thing they can't really teach you in college... 0 -
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Keeping more on topic with this thread coming from an animation/comics background I'm very anti spec work just cus I've seen too many people screwed over in the past few years doing work and not getting paid [including myself I must admit]. In alot cases it can be put down to their own fault for doing the work but it's such a tough industry alot people are afraid to piss a possible client off by refusing. If a company wants to do spec-work let them off, they'll have to pay their designers anyway but anyone working freelance who does spec work I think is being a bit foolish, what's the point of your portfolio? A client should be able to tell your style from your book and know if your right for what they want. I linked to this in the other thread but worth linking again as it's some very basic but sound advice for working freelance.
Very interesting link...Thanks. I also work as a freelance artist from time to time (I was originally trained as a classical animator) - although, over the years I have diversified in order to capture more clients, plus I like designing stuff too.
Although, I've got to say "artists" probably get a worse deal than designers from my experiance. I could tell you guys some horror stories that have happened to personal friends of mine. I've also been stung myself... (a great learning experience at least).
I had one of my mates recently who's been refused to be paid 2000 euro - taking these people to court not an option (realistically). The costs and time that goes into it - it's not really worth it at the end of the day. I had another mate of mine that literally "camped" outside a company so she could see the manager, in order to get what was owed- she spent so much time trying to get paid from them - it was hardly worth it in the end.
When I'm approached for artwork - I always ask for some money up front. Then and only then, will I commence the storyboards (if it's an animated piece for example). I will only work when the client "signs off" on these S.boards. However, I usually get at least 50% before I hand anything over - source files, etc (not the sketches obviously). After I send them everything I ask for the rest of the payment... If they default on this, which is rare especially if you are aware of the typical "Red Flags", then at least you cover your costs. How you decide to get you money back is another issue.
Unfortunately, one of the best ways to learn about company shenanigans is actually having a bad experience...0 -
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