Weed

ScumLord

Snoogans wrote: »

I'd view it as being about as dangerous as alcohol in terms of addiction and the effects on you yourself. it's infinitely less dangerous in terms of affecting those around you.

Alcohol is much worse, your more of an ass drinking and the hangover is much, much worse.

Snoogans

the hangover's worse, but I mean in terms of damage to your job/school etc

ScumLord

Snoogans wrote: »

the hangover's worse, but I mean in terms of damage to your job/school etc

That's alcohol again, hands down. I've been in work stoned and have actually been better at work than if I'm sober (it's a creative job though) if I'm drunk at work nothings getting done and I'll probably end up getting sent home for my own good.

Drunks fall over and are aggressive, stoners are slow. You can't say that weed makes you worse than a drunk.

Valmont

ScumLord wrote: »

Psychological addiction is wanting something

where as physiological addiction is needing something.

That's a gross oversimplification and a misleading one at that. Just because something like cocaine gives the user a "psychological" addiction doesn't mean they don't need the drug, in fact, a psychological addiction is a far more powerful motivator.

It may be a psychological addiction but medical professionals and psychologists know exactly what neural mechanisms are involved in the process:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incentive_salience

Wikipedia yes, but I've covered this topic a good bit in college and it's a good little summary.

Also, StoptheWaronDrugs is correct, good post:)

Odysseus

Dragan wrote: »

Even then most papers are not exactly clear on the source of the test substance, which i would see as a major flaw.

Anyways, i like the weed myself.

Sorry it took so long to get back to you, I don't be online mucch during the week. Can I ask what you meant by the source of test substance?

I not anti-weed myself, it just annoys me when people don't acknowledge that it not a harmless drug.

Pace2008

ScumLord wrote: »

That's alcohol again, hands down. I've been in work stoned and have actually been better at work than if I'm sober (it's a creative job though) if I'm drunk at work nothings getting done and I'll probably end up getting sent home for my own good.

You'd definitely be in a worse state if you were taking alcohol all the time, but it's much easier to fall into the trap of getting stoned every day than getting drunk every night. I'm a useless vegetable when I'm high and I know it'd mess my life up if I was smoking habitually, so I limit it to weekends (Thursdays included ), but I know that there are plenty of people affected in the same way as me that don't exercise such willpower.

Valmont wrote: »

a psychological addiction is a far more powerful motivator.

Am I misunderstanding you here? Tell that to a smack addict on a withdrawal.

roneythetube

8 wrote: »

Robs people of ambition.

People like Barack Obama?

StopTheDrugWar!

roneythetube wrote: »

People like Barack Obama?

and michael phelps.

Odysseus

Pace2008 wrote: »

Am I misunderstanding you here? Tell that to a smack addict on a withdrawal.

I don't want to answer for Valmont, but dealing with the psychical withdrawal is the easy part. I may be a tad unpleasant with opiates, but the worst part is over in a few days. The more problematic and more difficult part to treat is the psych end. Otherwise a quick detox would solve all the problems.

Bonkers_xOx

Nope.

But I heard it's good mixed with yoghurt...

120_Minutes

Here's part 1 of the BBC horizon docu from earlier this year. it makes for interesting viewing. the other parts can be found in the related videos section.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSaPdKDW6Xk

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Yup love it most times. Use anything like it in moderation and it's fine.

Treat it like beer, don't do it during the day or on a night where I have something important to do in the morning. Get mine in holland every few months, top notch and cheap No, I don't bring it home either...

Odysseus

Rebecca Low Band wrote: »

Yup love it most times. Use anything like it in moderation and it's fine.

Treat it like beer, don't do it during the day or on a night where I have something important to do in the morning. Get mine in holland every few months, top notch and cheap No, I don't bring it home either...

To be honest mate, that sounds like responsible recreational use, which IMO is fair enough, and in most cases will not do any real harm.

Pace2008

Odysseus wrote: »

I don't want to answer for Valmont, but dealing with the psychical withdrawal is the easy part. I may be a tad unpleasant with opiates, but the worst part is over in a few days. The more problematic and more difficult part to treat is the psych end. Otherwise a quick detox would solve all the problems.

The rest of what you said may be right but judging from what I've heard you may have made the understatement of the year.

Also: smoked some soapbar last night. Hope they legalise MJ soon so I never have to do that again.

That_Guy

I'd do it the odd time. I wouldn't intentionally go out and look for the stuff. If it's there I'll buy some but this only happens about every 3 or 4 months or so.

Tis a grand aul plant.

Rebel021

PirateShampoo wrote: »

A few times many moons ago, didnt like it though.

It turned me green more than once and its no fun spewing when uve no control over ur legs.

Haven't touched it in about 20years as it did make me sick.
It didn't at the start but then I started to get sick and I wasn't smoking much
so it was either crap quality or I grew an intolerance for it.

I wish we had weed and not the crap resin thats sold here.

Nick_oliveri

Hash! Mellow high hash!

Odysseus

Pace2008 wrote: »

The rest of what you said may be right but judging from what I've heard you may have made the understatement of the year.

Also: smoked some soapbar last night. Hope they legalise MJ soon so I never have to do that again.

But to be fair its hardly the understatment of the year, opiate withdrawal unplesant as it may be, its hardly an medical emergency. Addicts have to go sick often enough, when they are lifted for example. If they are not on a meth programme they wouldn't give it when in custody [in most cases].

Most heroin addicts I know would agree with what I said, its unpleasant yes, nobody wants to experience it, but at worst the significant areas of discomfort start to get better on day 3, most are over the worst by day 5.

ScumLord

Odysseus wrote: »

But to be fair its hardly the ubderstatment of the year, opiate withdrawal unplesant as it may be, its hardly an medical emergency. Addicts have to go sick often enough, when they are lifted for example. If they are not on meth programme they wouldn't give it when in custody [in most cases].

Most heroin addicts I know would agree with what I said, its unpleasant yes, nobody wants to experience it, but at worst the significant areas of discomfort start to get better on day 3, most are over the worst by day 5.

That's not to bad so, might give the ol H a go at the weekend.

Odysseus

Going off topic I know but a generally accepted quote is "for the average opiate dependent adult, the level of withdrawal process causes about as much discomfort as an adult experiences during a bad case of influenza" [Mattick &Hall 1996]. A lot of users seem to have a phobic terror of withdrawal, which though subjectively unpleasant its not as bad as the likes of trainspotting makes it out to be.

Dragan

Odysseus wrote: »

Sorry it took so long to get back to you, I don't be online mucch during the week. Can I ask what you meant by the source of test substance?

I not anti-weed myself, it just annoys me when people don't acknowledge that it not a harmless drug.

Basically whether the weed itself is hydro, outdoor with aides, organic etc.

Odysseus

Dragan wrote: »

Basically whether the weed itself is hydro, outdoor with aides, organic etc.

Out of interest what difference would you see that as making? Or is it a reference to the difference in the THC levels?

Degsy

Dragan wrote: »

Basically whether the weed itself is hydro, outdoor with aides, organic etc.

All comercial weed is grown under lights in this country.
The fact is that it wont bud heavily in the irish outdoors as it thrives on an enormous amount of light during its vegative cycle and needs light in the correct spectrum to flower successfully.
For that reason high quality varieties such as northern lights can be grown quickly and cheaply indoors using high-intensity discharge lights.
A 3 bed house could potentially grow up to 400 plants each yeilding three ounces of high-quality bud every 3 months.
The growing medium is always hydroponics,whereby the plants are suspended in a liquid nutrient tailored carefully to yeild the fastest growth.
The advantage hydroponics ahs over soil is that cannabis is a high-energy plant and requires enormous amounts of nutrients while its growing and flowering.
Most soil outside the tropics(and the light too)simply isnt rich enough to support a good crop without extensive fertilisation,weeding and pest control.
A basic hydroponics set up is less than 100 quid.
The governemt are missing out on a huge tax-,making oppurtunity..legalise it..grow it commercialy for medicine and fibre,sell high quality joints in special shops with proof of id required etc and if people want to get fcucked up since when did the government care?

ahara

We should legalise all spliff except soapbar. We should reintroduce the death penalty for people selling soapbar.

Wertz

Degsy wrote: »

The governemt are missing out on a huge tax-,making oppurtunity..legalise it..grow it commercialy for medicine and fibre,sell high quality joints in special shops with proof of id required etc and if people want to get fcucked up since when did the government care?

You know the only problem with that scenario is partly the reason it's already illegal in the first place; how do you impose taxes/levies on those who decide to grow it at home for either personal use, small time selling or larger growing operations?
Do you make cultivation without a "license" even more of a crime than what it already is now?
The government isn't interested in creating another taxable resource when the methods of imposing and collecting that tax may not in fact be effective and cost efficient.

If cannabis was legalised in the fashion you allude to, tax and duty would drive the price instead of black market imposed quality/availabity factors that currently do; if that price isn't carefully structured to compete with "freely" cultivated marijuana grown on a domestic scale, then it isn't going to work.
If it's a choice, and a stoner can either go down to the chemists/newsagents and pay (X + government imposed levy + VAT + makey-uppy tax = Y), X being the cost to produce under license, Y being a figure maybe 3-4 times X, or they can simply pay X at source, which are they going to choose?
The trouble here is finding a median price for the product, one which can compete with average black market prices (unless you intend to legislate heavily against it in tandem with changes in legal status) whilst still pulling in enough revenue to make it worth the trouble any goverment is inevitably going to into with a conservative and ill informed electorate.

I agree totally with the idea of legalisation, but the business model isn't as cut and dried as it seems at first glance.

Alcohol is legal yet there are still those who decide to take the production into their own hands in order to simply lower the cost or upping the proof. Making good quality hooch is decidedly more difficult than growing kick ass weed, and if you don't know what you're doing, one could kill or blind you, whilst the other left you with a mild headache.
Of course there is the other side to that argument, that 99.9% of drinkers prefer to let someone else make the drink and they'll just buy it...the same would eventually happen to legal marijuana, but only after you remove the incentive to home cultivation and continued black market selling...

4zn76tysfajdxp

What if they placed tax on the seeds?

omahaid

Truth be told, I think it would interfere with my drink addiction so never bothered

Wertz

Kaia Millions Clown wrote: »

What if they placed tax on the seeds?

Currently the vast majority of seeds are sourced outside the State. I fail to see how this would change much. In order to make it worthwhile the tax may need to be say, €10 per seed...obviously a lot of people just dodge that tax to put it up to "the man". Lastly, if you're already growing, then seed production isn't an issue...in fact it's what you go out of your way to avoid.

omahaid wrote: »

Truth be told, I think it would interfere with my drink addiction so never bothered

Thanks for that because it raises another factor that I never mentioned in the above post.
Alcohol is a cash cow for the Irish revenue...I don't know the figures but they're big. Now personally speaking I'd spent a lot more on weed than drink as it stands at the minute, but I'm probably in the minority. In the event of legalisation, alcohol sales and thusly resulting revenue could fall considerably as people decided that maybe cannabis was a more pleasant way of spending an evening instead of being pissed. Perhaps a large swathe of the public could change their spending habits in pubs and offies, preferring to smoke at home or in some type of "coffee shop" set up or whatever. Then you face the double whammy of people reducing their spend on booze and upping their spend on cannabis, which isn't or can't effectively be taxed...result; lower tax take from alcohol, and knowing the Irish government a riase in duties on everything esle to cover any shortfall...

rubadub

Wertz wrote: »

how do you impose taxes/levies on those who decide to grow it at home for either personal use, small time selling or larger growing operations?

Same as alcohol at present. You can brew beer or wine at home for your own consumption but it is illegal to sell it without a licence. People growing at home would not be taxed. Large operations would be raided like illegal distillation plants. Street sellers would be treated the same as people selling cigarettes or alcohol on the street.

The majority of people buy their cigarettes & booze in shops, most are simply not bothered doing it themselves and would not trust a blackmarket supply. I would hate to have to buy my spirits illegally, even if they were half the price or less, it is not worth the risk or bother. I don't think I ever heard of anybody I know growing tobacco to smoke it, though you can buy the plants (though I presume it does need more post curing care).

Wertz wrote: »

If cannabis was legalised in the fashion you allude to, tax and duty would drive the price instead of black market imposed quality/availabity factors that currently do; if that price isn't carefully structured to compete with "freely" cultivated marijuana grown on a domestic scale, then it isn't going to work.

The price of drink & tobacco is structured like that. I think you might overestimate how many would be willing to grow on a continual basis rather than have the convenience of buying it. Many growers do it as a last resort, to ensure it is fully pure, I now suspect it will be contaminated with the various synthetic cannabinoids.

What you will probably get is people growing small scale grows providing a close circle of friends. The difference with booze & smoke is that it is easily stashed. Like in holland you can buy in one coffee shop, go to another and smoke it there, as long as you buy some food or smoke there too it is pretty much tolerated.

I think many will do it once and soon give up, it is a interesting hobby, like many lads I know have brewed beer once or twice in the past but never do it now.

Wertz wrote: »

Of course there is the other side to that argument, that 99.9% of drinkers prefer to let someone else make the drink and they'll just buy it...the same would eventually happen to legal marijuana, but only after you remove the incentive to home cultivation and continued black market selling

Yes, and with the risk of contamination I think people will pay the extra few € for quality products, just like they buy other drugs from a chemist or authorised outlet. People don't even trust takeaway vans etc, and many will be loyal to certain brands. John Player Green;)

Wertz wrote: »

Alcohol is legal yet there are still those who decide to take the production into their own hands in order to simply lower the cost or upping the proof. Making good quality hooch is decidedly more difficult than growing kick ass weed, and if you don't know what you're doing, one could kill or blind you, whilst the other left you with a mild headache.

Having experience of both I would say making high quality alcohol is far, far easier, and you can easily make a far superior product that commercially available alcohol. It has a far higher potential output in the same square footage used to to grow a single plant you could easily turnout 50x700ml bottles of 40% high quality vodka in just over a week (€1000 worth at offy prices). I would say the alcohol distillation is a far safer process too, there some myths still surrounding it, like the blindness one. A single glass of unfermented apple juice would be more likely to blind you than the entire 50 bottles I mentioned. Home distillation is legal in a few countries, and rightly so, a good alternative to having to drink the commercial poison out there.

Wertz wrote: »

In the event of legalisation, alcohol sales and thusly resulting revenue could fall considerably as people decided that maybe cannabis was a more pleasant way of spending an evening instead of being pissed.

That is a point I have brought up in many of these threads. Many illogically presume that people will drink the exact same amount and take these drugs ontop of their usual alcohol amount, and so "make things even worse". I do think people would drink less, and see it as a good thing. The gov will put up a supposed campaign for sensible drinking, but I wonder if they really do want it.

Dragan

Wertz wrote: »

Thanks for that because it raises another factor that I never mentioned in the above post.
Alcohol is a cash cow for the Irish revenue...I don't know the figures but they're big. Now personally speaking I'd spent a lot more on weed than drink as it stands at the minute, but I'm probably in the minority. In the event of legalisation, alcohol sales and thusly resulting revenue could fall considerably as people decided that maybe cannabis was a more pleasant way of spending an evening instead of being pissed. Perhaps a large swathe of the public could change their spending habits in pubs and offies, preferring to smoke at home or in some type of "coffee shop" set up or whatever. Then you face the double whammy of people reducing their spend on booze and upping their spend on cannabis, which isn't or can't effectively be taxed...result; lower tax take from alcohol, and knowing the Irish government a riase in duties on everything esle to cover any shortfall...

Actually, it's very easy to apply tax in a setting where the grow/sale of canabis is legal.

You have a sellers and a growers license split to different levels, then you have a live register of all the legal home/for sale growers.

Then you simply tax the product itself at the point of sale. At in the fact that this would lead to a big increase in the sales of stuff to actually grow it with and your sorted.