Is it ok to kill a butterfly in the name of art?

ThOnda

Or just go to the butterfly farm and ask for some dead guys (butterflies), so we can have our steaks and burgers in pease

humberklog

Silverfish wrote: »

Okay then, in order to not be controversial at all, you'll have to not kill the butterfly.In starting this thread to discuss this, you knew it was controversial, if you didn't, you would have just gone on your way, did the thing, and posted it later.

Personally I'd be very very excited to see what you have planned and how it will look.

I'm with you now.

Ricky91t

vectra wrote: »

Not even while driving your car during a summer evening?? :rolleyes:

That's a huge difference,It's one thing driving along and flies flying in front of you,You can't prevent it because they're feeding etc.

But when you see a spider,fly,butterfly,moth etc in your house and kill it,Be it for a photo,or fun,or just to get rid of it,Is stupid and wrong..

humberklog

ThOnda wrote: »

Or just go to the butterfly farm and ask for some dead guys (butterflies), so we can have our steaks and burgers in pease

Kinda needs the movement though. The nervous twitches would be hard to replicate, I'd imagine.

Needs a buzzy blur, I'm seeing Francis Bacon as an example of movement captured.

vectra

Ricky91t wrote: »

That's a huge difference,It's one thing driving along and flies flying in front of you,You can't prevent it because they're feeding etc.

But when you see a spider,fly,butterfly,moth etc in your house and kill it,Be it for a photo,or fun,or just to get rid of it,Is stupid and wrong..

Not really.


A)
" A thief burgles a house and runs out onto the street just as you are driving past. You accidently hit him with your car and kill him.."


" A thief burgles a house and runs out onto the street just as you are walking past. You shoot him and kill him.."

Is there a right and wrong scenario there?

I dont think so.
Killing is Killing

Anouilh

I used buy my taxidermy equipment by post from these guys

http://www.deyrolle.fr/magazine/spip.php?article153

Then I read "Silent Spring" by Rachel Carson and therein lay the death of yet another naturalist.

However, butterflies are not difficult to photograph live...




Your question has set me thinking...

For art, probably not worth the mess...

For science, if a strong enough case could be made, possibly...

aoibhebree

humberklog wrote: »

Is it ok to kill a butterfly?

Legally? I'd imagine so, I don't think you'd be arrested.

Morally? That's up to your own moral code. Personally I wouldn't purposely kill a butterfly in a million years, nor would anyone I know. Actually I try to avoid killing any creature, even spiders or flies, and I'm not an animal rights activist - I don't even like animals to be honest - but I just don't like to inflict unnecessary pain on anyone or any creature. I think when you started this thread you didn't really care about anyone else's opinions - you just wanted to start a bit of controversy - so well done, you've done that.

Anouilh

aoibhebree wrote: »

Legally? I'd imagine so, I don't think you'd be arrested.

Morally? That's up to your own moral code. Personally I wouldn't purposely kill a butterfly in a million years, nor would anyone I know. Actually I try to avoid killing any creature, even spiders or flies, and I'm not an animal rights activist - I don't even like animals to be honest - but I just don't like to inflict unnecessary pain on anyone or any creature. I think when you started this thread you didn't really care about anyone else's opinions - you just wanted to start a bit of controversy - so well done, you've done that.

I think the question is a very valid one.

I can't stand Damien Hirst's work, but that's probably because of squeamishness.

Having just banished a plague of snails from my garden I'm not in any position to point an accusing finger.

humberklog

aoibhebree wrote: »

Legally? I'd imagine so, I don't think you'd be arrested.

Morally? That's up to your own moral code. Personally I wouldn't purposely kill a butterfly in a million years, nor would anyone I know. Actually I try to avoid killing any creature, even spiders or flies, and I'm not an animal rights activist - I don't even like animals to be honest - but I just don't like to inflict unnecessary pain on anyone or any creature. I think when you started this thread you didn't really care about anyone else's opinions - you just wanted to start a bit of controversy - so well done, you've done that.

My moral compass is often out of whack. This issue arose through general discussion and I felt it better to get a wider view point. A viewpoint from people who do create and take phtographs.
Indeed I'm not interested in one individual's opinion (I have one of those myself) I'm am interested in measuring the collective thought in hopefully guiding me in the correct direction.
And indeed it would raise debate and questions on this issue...but that's exactly one of the purposes of a forum such as this.
This isn't the Personal Issues forum where such divilment may be easily filed away in the only way that you can understand. But this is the Photography forum in the Arts column.

What you're accusing me of is tantimount to trolling. I have enough posts on this forum to hopefully show that my intentions were not of a trolling nature.

AnimalRights

vectra wrote: »

Not even while driving your car during a summer evening?? :rolleyes:

OP is intentionally going to kill a Butterfly, When I drive I don't go looking for them.

Cop the fck on with your attempted soh.

Anouilh

humberklog wrote: »

My moral compass is often out of whack. This issue arose through general discussion and I felt it better to get a wider view point. A viewpoint from people who do create and take phtographs.
Indeed I'm not interested in one individual's opinion (I have one of those myself) I'm am interested in measuring the collective thought in hopefully guiding me in the correct direction.
And indeed it would raise debate and questions on this issue...but that's exactly one of the purposes of a forum such as this.
This isn't the Personal Issues forum where such divilment may be easily filed away in the only way that you can understand. But this is the Photography forum in the Arts column.

I think a sense of proportion is needed.

I find it almost impossible to watch the news on TV most of the time.

Since you seem to be giving the butterfly a fighing chance of survival, getting into a wax is probably not worth the effort.

AnimalRights

ThOnda wrote: »

We are talking about creating art, not killing for the pleasure of killing. And in fairness, it won't be killing, just "shortening the lifespan of one insect".
I bet that after finishing the shoot, the dead butterfly will go back to the nature to provide it's main and essential purpose.

FFS, we are talking about one butterfly, not about a village of people. Get real, more people get killed by drivers every year than butterflies for photography purposes!

I hope when you die you come back as a Butterfly....it might be the only time I'll get tempted to go artistic.

Simplicius

The butterfly is obviously going to distress many people, so think outside the box for a "No Possible Objectors" solution.

To help you along the road of lateral thinking. you could kidnap Brian Cowen and dress him in a butterfly suit and start pinning him to a sheet of plywood with a nail gun ...happily this is a totally PC solution. :cool:

humberklog

Anouilh wrote: »

Since you seem to be giving the butterfly a fighing chance of survival, getting into a wax is probably not worth the effort.

I have made it very clear that there is no chance of survival.
Not in a wax at all.

Paparazzo

AnimalRights wrote: »

OP is intentionally going to kill a Butterfly, When I drive I don't go looking for them.

Cop the fck on with your attempted soh.

So it's not ok to kill one butterfly in the name of art, but driving (and killing 100 flys in the process) to the shop to get milk for a cup of tea is ok?

Ricky91t

Paparazzo wrote: »

So it's not ok to kill one butterfly in the name of art, but driving (and killing 100 flys in the process) to the shop to get milk for a cup of tea is ok?

When you drive somewhere as AR has said it's not deliberate.

Going out picking up a butterfly and then putting it through something that will cause it's death and probably but it through great distress isn't nice.

@Vlastik , you never hear the radio saying someones life has been shortened when they get murdered/stabbed so why should it be different just cause it's a butterfly...

AnCatDubh

moderation note;

keep on topic. reminder that charter rules still apply, particularly the manners thread.

refrain from inappropriate language or baiting of other users.

i hoping people will be reasonable so that the thread can remain open.

thank you.

Ricky91t

vectra wrote: »

Not really.


A)
" A thief burgles a house and runs out onto the street just as you are driving past. You accidently hit him with your car and kill him.."


" A thief burgles a house and runs out onto the street just as you are walking past. You shoot him and kill him.."

Is there a right and wrong scenario there?

I dont think so.
Killing is Killing

One intentional and deliberate the other isn't
Simple really?!

humberklog

Ricky91t wrote: »

One intentional and deliberate the other isn't
Simple really?!

One's about a human another's about a butterfly.
The comparing animals with humans doesn't wash me, then again comparing butterflies with bluebottles doesn't go either.
I've been totting up reactions and it's breaking about 60/40 in favour of the butterfly living. I would have questioned my idea if the favouring was about 90/10.
60/40 really does bring it into the realms of personal opinion. That I can handle. Swathes of revulsion I'm just not built for.

It works out about 80/20 on this thread but I hit a rich vein of positives in the pub last night.

Scarlett68

humberklog wrote: »

Indeed I'm not interested in one individual's opinion (I have one of those myself) I'm am interested in measuring the collective thought in hopefully guiding me in the correct direction.

Reading this thread I would say the majority are anti you killing the butterfly. Does this mean Humberklog that the collective has changed your mind? (Just curious!)

humberklog

Scarlett68 wrote: »

Reading this thread I would say the majority are anti you killing the butterfly. Does this mean Humberklog that the collective has changed your mind? (Just curious!)

No. As posted above your post there's a wider breakdown of figures and what figures would influence me.
It's not about a simple majority.
I haven't been too convinced by the comments against either but have been by the people in the pro camp.

I've a natural scepticism about large fonted NOs when used in a discussion too. It does taint the whole arguement for me. It's just a me thing.

AnimalRights

humberklog wrote: »

It works out about 80/20 on this thread but I hit a rich vein of positives in the pub last night.

You expect pub people to say let the Butterfly live? Unless they were drinking kaliber the Butterfly never stood a chance.

AnimalRights

humberklog wrote: »

I've a natural scepticism about large fonted NOs when used in a discussion too. It does taint the whole arguement for me. It's just a me thing.

What did you expect me to reply with?
As others have said this is a wishy washy thread....it should have been locked after post #2.

You could always get your arse down to the City Arms tomorrow morning at 10.30 and I will be the NO side, you can be the Yes side.

humberklog

AnimalRights wrote: »

You expect pub people to say let the Butterfly live? Unless they were drinking kaliber the Butterfly never stood a chance.

But they were artyfarty pubs stuffed to the gills with artyfarty types (Anseo and the Castle).
Surprisingly (or maybe not) women were in the slight majority in the pro camp. My 5 year old included.

Ricky91t

humberklog wrote: »

But they were artyfarty pubs stuffed to the gills with artyfarty types (Anseo and the Castle).
Surprisingly (or maybe not) women were in the slight majority in the pro camp. My 5 year old included.

No offence to your 5 year old,But I wouldn't even count her vote,When I younger I couldn't care less about bugs I found,Probably killed alot..It's only when you realise although smaller they still have feel pain etc.Just thought i'd add that

humberklog

AnimalRights wrote: »

What did you expect me to reply with?
As others have said this is a wishy washy thread....it should have been locked after post #2.

You could always get your arse down to the City Arms tomorrow morning at 10.30 and I will be the NO side, you can be the Yes side.

Is that an offer of a date AR?

I might well be around there tomorrow...you'll notice me as I'll be carrying a big net and boxes of drawing pins.:pac:


That wasn't a go at you personally about the large font. I saw it as a larger collective is all. Popped all negatives in the one box and pros in the other.

AnimalRights

humberklog wrote: »

Is that an offer of a date AR?

I might well be around there tomorrow...you'll notice me as I'll be carrying a big net and boxes of drawing pins.:pac:

Besides the Butterfly debate you could also teach me some of your great photography techniques.

humberklog

Ricky91t wrote: »

No offence to your 5 year old,But I wouldn't even count her vote,When I younger I couldn't care less about bugs I found,Probably killed alot..It's only when you realise although smaller they still have feel pain etc.Just thought i'd add that

None taken (on her behalf). I needed to get a broad scope of opinions and hers matters to me. Indeed it will change with every passing day but it doesn't make it any less relevant to me.

She had the best summing up though. "If it's beautiful" was her last words on it. I don't necessarily agree with her but I liked her measure.

humberklog

AnimalRights wrote: »

Besides the Butterfly debate you could also teach me some of your great photography techniques.

I'd be learning a lot more from you I'd say but yeah I always bring the cameras with me you'd be more than welcome.

Linguo

The butterfly will be much more beautiful alive and free than the photo I fear, please let the little chap live!

challengemaster

Some of the people here do not seem to see the difference between the life of a butterfly and that of a human being. If that is actually the case, it's a very sad day for humanity IMO.

Also, I'd really love to know about everyone's eating habits. If you're all so anti-killing for whatever purpose, then how can you eat anything?

Meat comes from animals which are killed
Plants are also living things
Even chocolate has to have things killed to make it.

You could argue that "We need to eat, we don't need to kill a butterfly" and indeed, we do need to eat. But by your logic, why is you dying from not eating so different from humberklog killing a butterfly? IF Every life is as valued as the next, so clearly, you should be willing to die in order for something else to live.

Next, you can also look at what things eat butterflies. They are eaten by birds, bats, lizards, toads, ants, parasitic flies, moths and monkeys. They can also be attacked by bees, wasps, etc. So, how do you know that the butterflies life won't actually be extended in the time during the shoot? A minute after humberklog caught it, some bird may have eaten it in nature. And if the butterfly is put back into nature, millions of bacteria will break it down for nutrients anyway, so it's not like it's not going back to nature, as ThOnda put it.

Also, if you consider the fact that butterflies and moths only live for 8-9 months, when compared with a possible upwards of 100 years in humans... equating the life of one to another really is completely illogical.

humberklog, I for one am interested in seeing the finished piece.

vectra

challengemaster wrote: »

If you're all so anti-killing for whatever purpose, then how can you eat anything?

Well
if I decide to eat Chicken for dinner,, It doesnt mean I go out and strangle the daylights out of one first.
"What the eye doesnt see the heart doesnt feel"

Linguo

And i'm veggie, there's a big difference between eating a sprout and killing a butterfly for photography!

humberklog

challengemaster wrote: »

Even chocolate has to have things killed to make it.

humberklog, I for one am interested in seeing the finished piece.

Indeed health a safety standards for Umpa Lumpas is a disgace. Blood Chocolate more like!


Challengemaster you'll be there 1st to see. A bit of fine weather wouldn't go amiss.

AnimalRights

challengemaster wrote: »

<<<Snip>>>>

.

Ricky91t

challengemaster wrote: »

Some of the people here do not seem to see the difference between the life of a butterfly and that of a human being. If that is actually the case, it's a very sad day for humanity IMO.

Contradicting yourself?

challengemaster wrote: »

Every life is as valued as the next, so clearly, you should be willing to die in order for something else to live.

First you say a butterfly is worthless compared to a human

Then,You say that "Every life is as valued as the next" so you're saying that a butterflies life is as equal to the next(aka a human)

Eating meat on the other hand is a need,We need the nutrients etc contained within in food,To keep our bodies healthy,But if Humberklog didn't kill a butterfly for art he wouldn't be affected..

We need to eat food,Be it meat or plants

No ones needs to kill an animal be it big or small in the name of art.

challengemaster wrote: »

it's a very sad day for humanity IMO.

What a pointless comment..People have their own views just cause you view things different it doesn't mean it a very sad day for humanity.

challengemaster

Ricky91t wrote: »

Contradicting yourself?

First you say a butterfly is worthless compared to a human

Then,You say that "Every life is as valued as the next" so you're saying that a butterflies life is as equal to the next(aka a human)

Sorry, I left out an 'If' there - The "Every life is as valued as the next" comment is what some people on the thread seem to think, not my opinion.

AnCatDubh

Ok guys. The thread has run its course and is heading into "off topic land" and beyond the original question to the forum bearing in mind that the forum which it is posted is within the arts category and not in the morale / spirituality / right or wrong categories.

I'm closing because I feel the original question has been adequately in the ensuing discourse and people are just going to end up getting themselves in trouble if the debate continues.

Thank you.