Rob Liefeld vs Peter David

ztoical

For anyone who hasn't read X-factor 45 and doesn't want it spoiled stop reading now.
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Over at CBR they posted comments made by Liefled regarding the recent outing of Shatterstar, a character he "co-created" at Marvel about 19 yeas ago. Needless to say Liefled said some stupid things that people ripped into in the comments. The fun started when Peter David [writer of X-factor who outed Shatterstar] added his view to the comments and low and behold Rob Liefled showed up to add his two cents. It is one of the funniest things I've read in a long time, go watch as Liefled digs himself deeper and deeper and deeper and ...........

fredmc

PAD wrote:

And just a thought, Rob: people are talking about Shatterstar for the first time in years. He’s making national news. Because of me.
Maybe, just maybe, that’s the thing that’s pissing you off the most

PAD is a legend, he makes Liefeld look like a fool.

subedei

Im going to do the unpopular here and say I dont think Liefield came off too badly, he was just defending what he said, and his interest in a character he created. To be honest I think alot of this has to do with the fact that he spoke against his character being gay, and if it had been something else then this wouldnt be an issue. It seems everything he says is being twisted and turned and my opinion of PAD is lower because of this, tho the fact that Liefield would bother shows that he isnt that smart himself as he is playing directly into their hands. Well thats what I think anyway. Personally myself I dont really care much what artists or writers think personally or their personal lifes, all I care about is their work, whether or not I like it.

Fysh

This is one of those storm-in-a-teacup stories really, but given that Liefeld's work for Marvel was work-for-hire, he doesn't really have any say in what writers have done after his departure with characters he created. He might not agree with the idea, but it's not the first or only example of such a change, so it's curious that a character being outed as gay and having a relationship with one of his teammates is the change that made him speak out.

livingtargets

Ha!
The poor grammer and spelling in Liefield`s comments compared to David`s!

Also,Liefield said "And it’s all well and fine that you don’t respect a creator’s wishes or intent. I’m different like that.”

"Heroes Reborn",anyone?

subedei

Fysh wrote: »

This is one of those storm-in-a-teacup stories really, but given that Liefeld's work for Marvel was work-for-hire, he doesn't really have any say in what writers have done after his departure with characters he created. He might not agree with the idea, but it's not the first or only example of such a change, so it's curious that a character being outed as gay and having a relationship with one of his teammates is the change that made him speak out.

True, but I wonder has he spoken out before? but only because this was this issue that it has got the publicity. Dont think if it was a normal change that anyone would bother publicising it, Im sure nearly every creator gets pissed about what happened to his creations but most would have the wisdom not to speak on this particular issue I think.

Fysh

He doesn't seem to have mentioned it elsewhere but that could easily just be that it's not the sort of question you'd necessarily want to answer in a printed magazine, for fear that it'd haunt you. Whereas these days we can read far more of the words of anyone even remotely famous, whether or not they put a bit of thought into making sure they were correctly expressing themselves...

I'll be honest though, I can't really take complaints about "deviating from the creator's intent" seriously when we're talking about a creator most famous for big guns, excessive pouches and inexplicable feet.

Xabs

I think it's sickening how comic book fans (and creators)
act in relation to Rob Liefeld. Maybe if these people knew him personally
or he had done something to them it would be in some way excusable.
But by most accounts he is a nice guy who is just doing what he loves.

The guy has carved out a successful career with limited artisitc ability,
and is one of the most recognisable people in the industry.
He should be applauded for that, not ridiculed.

And for the record, I take Rob's side in this argument.
Is he not perfectly entitled to have an opinion on a character he created?
I don't think Peter David would like it if.....I'm sorry I can't
think of any significant characters created by Peter David.....

The people throwing the insults at Rob should take a long
look at themselves in the mirror (nazi...anyone?) :mad:

ztoical

Xabs wrote: »

The people throwing the insults at Rob should take a long
look at themselves in the mirror (nazi...anyone?) :mad:

Well the thread is dead now that nazi's have been mentioned but seriously if you chose to put your work out there get ready to take both the praise and abuse when it comes. I'm looking at all the threads regarding Micheal Jackson and there are some true awful things being said about him and I'm sure his family will tell you he was a good man in person.

And I'm sorry but bad art should never be excused just cus the artist is a nice person and just because he he had some success doesn't exempt his work from critique.

Fysh

Xabs wrote: »

I think it's sickening how comic book fans (and creators)
act in relation to Rob Liefeld. Maybe if these people knew him personally
or he had done something to them it would be in some way excusable.
But by most accounts he is a nice guy who is just doing what he loves.

The guy has carved out a successful career with limited artisitc ability,
and is one of the most recognisable people in the industry.
He should be applauded for that, not ridiculed.

And for the record, I take Rob's side in this argument.
Is he not perfectly entitled to have an opinion on a character he created?
I don't think Peter David would like it if.....I'm sorry I can't
think of any significant characters created by Peter David.....

The people throwing the insults at Rob should take a long
look at themselves in the mirror (nazi...anyone?) :mad:

1) Rob Liefeld's work at Image (and extremely lax attitude to quality control and shipping dates) directly contributed to the speculator boom & bust that almost crushed the American monthly comics market in the mid 90s.

2) While Liefeld has been savvy in carving out a career for himself with limited skills, he certainly has not done the medium as a whole any favours by doing so. I can't condone personal attacks on an individual but I certainly don't see why people shouldn't point out the many, many failings in what work he has published, whether it's deemed to be "action-packed" or not. It's bad artwork and anyone claiming otherwise is deluding themselves.

3) Being a nice guy or an absolute jack-ass has nothing to do with the quality of someone's work, and thus should have no bearing on whether someone's art is deemed to have any merit.

4) Rob Liefeld was doing work-for-hire at Marvel and thus knew that whatever characters he created at the time would be owned by the company. Whether it was right or not, he knew about it. Besides which there are many similarities between the characters he created at Marvel and those he used for his comics at Image (for example, look at Troll and tell me that he's not at least visually based on Wolverine).

5) Whether you like Peter David or not, he's generally held in high regard for his work on The Incredible Hulk (given that Marvel released his run on the title in 5 volumes titled "Hulk Visionaries: Peter David"). Judging a creator based on the popularity of their creations (which have been worked on by multiple individuals) rather than by the quality of their individual works is a pretty daft way of evaluating the merit of stories, to say the least.

shenanigans1982

http://i.somethingawful.com/mjolnir/images/livestock~captain.jpg

I think that image is generally used to sum up his contribution to comics. Every time I see it I cannot believe how some editor did not take a stand and say it would be embarrassing to use that piece of art....or was his name really selling enough comics for them to use rubbish like that.

Xabs

Fysh wrote: »

1) Rob Liefeld's work at Image (and extremely lax attitude to quality control and shipping dates) directly contributed to the speculator boom & bust that almost crushed the American monthly comics market in the mid 90s.

2) While Liefeld has been savvy in carving out a career for himself with limited skills, he certainly has not done the medium as a whole any favours by doing so. I can't condone personal attacks on an individual but I certainly don't see why people shouldn't point out the many, many failings in what work he has published, whether it's deemed to be "action-packed" or not. It's bad artwork and anyone claiming otherwise is deluding themselves.

3) Being a nice guy or an absolute jack-ass has nothing to do with the quality of someone's work, and thus should have no bearing on whether someone's art is deemed to have any merit.

4) Rob Liefeld was doing work-for-hire at Marvel and thus knew that whatever characters he created at the time would be owned by the company. Whether it was right or not, he knew about it. Besides which there are many similarities between the characters he created at Marvel and those he used for his comics at Image (for example, look at Troll and tell me that he's not at least visually based on Wolverine).

5) Whether you like Peter David or not, he's generally held in high regard for his work on The Incredible Hulk (given that Marvel released his run on the title in 5 volumes titled "Hulk Visionaries: Peter David"). Judging a creator based on the popularity of their creations (which have been worked on by multiple individuals) rather than by the quality of their individual works is a pretty daft way of evaluating the merit of stories, to say the least.

1) Surely you don't suscribe to the fallacious notion that seems to be
held by many of Liefeld's detractors, that he is solely responsible
for the bust. Alot of factors contributed, the boom started long before
Liefeld could have such a significant impact and the market was already saturated by the time Image was formed.
(Though I am not saying he didn't contribute)

2) I'm of the belief that a person's first interest should be himself
and it's not Liefeld's responsibilty to do the medium any favors.

I agree completely that people should point out failings.
But for the most part that's not what happens,
personal attacks are what happen.

3) Nor did I say such.
Being a nice guy or a jackass does have a lot to do with
whether a person deserves to be attacked however.

4) I'm sorry, are you saying he should have known his characters
could be changed and thus not created them in the first place?
And I don't see how similarities between his characters and existing characters has any relevance to this particular argument.

5) I stated the simple fact that I can't think of any significant characters created by PAD. If you interpreted this as a dislike on my part for said writer...that's not on me

shenanigans1982 wrote: »

http://i.somethingawful.com/mjolnir/images/livestock~captain.jpg

I think that image is generally used to sum up his contribution to comics. Every time I see it I cannot believe how some editor did not take a stand and say it would be embarrassing to use that piece of art....or was his name really selling enough comics for them to use rubbish like that.

That piece of 'artwork' is one of those unfortunate things in life
Is it Liefeld's fault for being a bad artist? Is it the fault of the editor, whose job it is to get books out the door?

Fysh

I was going to write a big response to that last post, but TBH I don't think the subject matter is worth the time or effort. I'm kind of surprised that at this point Liefeld still hasn't accepted that the work he did for Marvel was work-for-hire and involved them owning his creations (rightly or wrongly, that was the situation). But, well, whatever. In my mind he'll always be That Guy Who Gave Captain America Bitch-tits, which isn't exactly a coveted title...

ztoical

As easy as it would be to just sit here and argue Liefled's lack of talent, the point of the piece he and PAD were commenting was about a character that Liefled "co-created" suddenly turning gay [using the word created very lightly as he wasn't a very interesting or original character when first introduced and Liefled didn't write his first appearances Fabian Nicieza did and Nicieza did insert a whole bunch of hints that Shatterstar and Rictor were more then friends] And as several people have pointed out he was work for hire at Marvel. Isn't that the whole reason he left to start image [and then left Image before he could get fired by the other owners].

He made the comment that he couldn't wait to undo it. This is a really stupid comment to make as first I've never heard any writer or artist so publicly state they were going to undo something that was happening right now. O I've heard writers say they were very unhappy with what had happened to certain characters but they normally bitch then move on. Saying he can't wait to undo it implies that you can just undo being gay. Wither Liefled is homophobic or not I can't say, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and say he's not homophobic just thick. The fact that he can't see how someone could be really hurt and offended by the comment shows a really lack of common sense.

If this was a development that came out of the blue I might give him a little room but this is something that has been hinted at since early X-force days. There are a bunch of websites for the pairing that chart the development such as this one. Several writers have hinted at, PAD hinted from early X-factor issues so it was really no surprise it happened and I'm confused as to why Liefled decided to only comment at this late stage. Surely if you intended for a character to be something you would have let the writer who created him, Nicieza, know 20 years ago?

Simeadrach

Fair fecks to Peter David, this was something that he probably put an awful lot o thought into and not something he just did on a whim.
Liefeld needs to sit down and relax for a moment before he gets labelled as a crap artist and a homophobe.

Me and a few mates were quite lucky to chat to Peter David at the New York Comic Con and as soon as he found out we were Irish he started quizzin us about what we thought of his work with Siren, he was really eager to know what we as Irish lads thought of her.

Liefeld should be flippin honoured that Peter is taking an interest in "his" creation!

shenanigans1982

Just got this sent to me earlier and found it pretty amusing.

http://progressiveboink.com/archive/robliefeld.html

Fysh

Man, that's great. Whether or not you agree with his point, it's very hard to dislike an article that contains gems like

ProgressiveBoink wrote:

eventually the kids and the old men became one, and 9 out of 10 kids you met collected comics for the money they'd never see and gave you the most turd-burgling stink-eye if you took the literally, figuratively, and creatively worthless SPIRITS OF VENGEANCE out of its polybag

and

ProgressiveBoink wrote:

the good writers we lost, guys like Alan Moore, are busy writing graphic novels about how Snow White loves ****ing the Seven Dwarves in a metaphorical Future Paris or whatever.

constitutionus

im going to have to take the less supported side in this too.

shatterstars not gay, he's an asexual killing machine that gets his jollies murdering people.

that was the whole bloody point of what they were trying to set up in the early X force issues and his spin off series. its why he ostracised himself from the world. put simply he has no place in a civilised society and in my opinion i thought that was what he was all about.

a social alien.

to be brutally honest i thought he'd fit right into the new wolverine led X Force. its possibly the only place a character like him belongs and im surprised he ended up in davids hands. a guy who can spectacularly **** up characters if given half a chance.

liefield is undoubtedly a twat but david is a hack taking the easy out thats been done before and just like northstar in the long term will contribute just as much.

sod all.

so now instead of getting a geniunely interesting charcter to explore with a prety unique state of mind thats all getting chucked out and we're left with a cliche.

i have to admit, if i was liefled i couldnt wait to get in there and ret con the whole stupid notion too.

ztoical

constitutionus wrote: »

im going to have to take the less supported side in this too.

shatterstars not gay, he's an asexual killing machine that gets his jollies murdering people.

that was the whole bloody point of what they were trying to set up in the early X force issues and his spin off series. its why he ostracised himself from the world. put simply he has no place in a civilised society and in my opinion i thought that was what he was all about.

a social alien.

to be brutally honest i thought he'd fit right into the new wolverine led X Force. its possibly the only place a character like him belongs and im surprised he ended up in davids hands. a guy who can spectacularly **** up characters if given half a chance.

liefield is undoubtedly a twat but david is a hack taking the easy out thats been done before and just like northstar in the long term will contribute just as much.

sod all.

so now instead of getting a geniunely interesting charcter to explore with a prety unique state of mind thats all getting chucked out and we're left with a cliche.

i have to admit, if i was liefled i couldnt wait to get in there and ret con the whole stupid notion too.

Hold up Fabian Nicieza who created the character stated he intended for Shatterstar to develop feelings for Rictor. He had started to build up to it and there were plenty of hints, it wasn't going to be 'O he's gay' but more he's an asexual virgin who comes from a world where they don't have the word gay and he doesn't understand whats going with his emotions. The whole thing ended up dieing cus we had AOA and when it came back to the normal series the whole focus of the book had shifted and shortly after the writer/artist team changed. I freaking saw the developing relationship reading X-fore and I was 10 or something at the time and didn't know what gay was. So this is not a new development which is what make Liefeld's comments so odd. The asexual warrior character I have to say sounds like the most boring uninteresting 2D character going. And there's a huge difference between Rictor and Shatterstar and Northstar who just screams 'token gay character'. And people keep focusing on Shatterstar what about Rictor, I think it's very interesting development for his character.

Bob Z

So if Fabian Nicieza created the Charecter then what why is Rob Liefeld getting annoyed?

constitutionus

because fabien didnt create shatterstar, he was only a script writer for X-FORCE for the first ten issues or so. for better or worse it WAS leifelds plots (or what passes for em) that drove the story and the characters. why do you think the bloke appears out of no where in the last issue of new mutants?

when rob fecked off to do image thats when neieza went off on his own with the whole gay stuff that was promptly dropped by everyone else that touched the character since. writers by the way who quite frankly made a balls of the character ever since (and im talking about the whole "he's not real but the were not quite sure what bollockolgly refereing to a comotose bloke in a nut house called benjymin russel ) as they didnt know how to deal with him.

its not the only thing. lielfeld did some fairly major stuff to sam which has been forgot about too (the whole immortality thing when sauron killed him). that apparently was the whole REASON cable hooked up with the new mutants at all but sod alls been done with that too. in fact when sam went the xmen they abandoned all the character developemtn he got to be reduced to a punk idiot by lobdell.

by the way from what i can see the dropping of shatterstars being gay was more to do with homosexual issues and the like being explored in X men when northstar joined the team under scott lobdells period than AOA.

I was there for all that crap too and it was contrived nonsence then as it is now under david. mind you i was in my 20s so maybe having seen it elsewhere (that northstar thing WAS a big deal back in the day) it coloured my feelings on it.

end of the day though lielfeld did create shatterstar to be a asexual weapon for wont of a better term, his origin is as a genetically enginerred gladiator for the entertainment of the massees on mojo world (500 bloody years in the future too so there goes the whole "son of longshot" thing. so he's either been engineered with their DNA or they did a bit of baby making time travel). why in the name of christ would you give sexuality to a weapon?

the appeal of the character to me was he ISNT human in any psychologial sence of the word . he funtions well enough in the arena killing fields but here in our society where lopping peoples heads off is a no no he's bollocked. we seen as much in the mini he had where he ended up isolated and self loathing with a bunch of monks.. thats what makes him interesting, tragic even.

by making him gay and hooking up with ricktor he's essentially a fully functional normal person intergrated to society. which complety defeats the purpose of the fecker.

finally i have to ask. how the hell can you find an asexual character boring in a sex obsessed world? its WAY more "perverse" than being gay now.
if some people dont think sheering what most would be considerd to be one of the most important human drives and needs off a character interesting i dont know what is.

Fysh

BAHAHAHA, Liefeld mentioned in the same sentence as characters and plots? Oh, you joker you!

I would respond to the rest of your points, but frankly I don't really care and it's kind of sad that comics as an industry allows a creator to come out with such borderline-retarded statements. It's probably also sad that it allows for fans to then get into extended sessions of panty-bunching about whether they're right or not, but given the increasingly blurred lines between fandom and professional creators these days it's hard to tell the difference...

constitutionus

says a bloke who feels constraind to come into a thread he's no interest in just to mouth off.

get a life and leave the discussion to people who actually give a toss about the characters. we all know you'd rather go on about some black and white indie title about lesbian smurfs.

Fysh

But would they really be smurfs if they were in a black-and-white comic? Chromatic issues aside, "indie title about lesbian smurfs" sounds like something Jaime Hernandez would write & draw...

In terms of the (non-)issue at hand, given that you've spent time and effort on a serious post it's only fair to respond to it. You claim that other creators have steered clear of Nicieza's "going off on his own with the whole gay stuff", but Loeb hinted at this and the current editor-in-chief at Marvel has defended the development.

Thus, the question I'm interested in is: as a reader (and leaving Liefeld's comments to one side) does this development strike you as more wrong than the other examples of ignoring previously established continuity that the X-titles have been plagued with? I can understand the frustration at a lack of long-term consistency in terms of character evolution and story development, but I'm wondering whether you see this as a particularly bad development or just another instance amongst many that you believe doesn't mesh with what's gone before.

constitutionus

smufs are smurfs man, commentating on their colour is just racist !

to you post though.

its just strikes me as lazy writing. something david does when a lot when he's not really conscerned about the characters involved. its an easy out to garner a bit of publicity which to my mind is contrived and ultimately doesnt serve the character involved long term. he's done this sort of stuff before and i fully expect when someone else gets their hands on him they'll retcon the whole affair out just like has been done with other characters.

i get your point about nieceza (christ thats a pain to spell so im just not bothering anymore) but in fairness the whole issue pretains to liefleds intentions with hiscreation as opposed to what fabian did with him afterwards ,and he was undeniably a asexual character for the entire run of the guy on the book and when he did the mini series aftewards which was the state of affairs before david got his hands on the guy. he didnt even really get on with most of his teamates

in that light i do see it as a bad development as it misses the point in terms of the alienation of the character, relegating it to simple confused sexuality. theres plenty of other characters that couldve been used in the x universe to address these things but you lose alot with shatterstar if you use him. ive always thought there was alot of potential to use him as a foil to observe humanity from a unique point of view but no ones ever seemed interested in addressing that.

if marvels EIC stands over this fair enough, but theyll be the first guys to chuck the thing in a reboot too.

whoops gotta go.

livingtargets

If any other creator than Leifield(many of his stories seem shortsighted and lacking a longterm vision)wrote these characters I`d say the gay storyline would have been a subtle sub-plot from the very start.

I always thought the "relationship story" was the potentially classic story that was staring Liefield in the face but he never really followed it.

It`s a shame because,in my opinion,if he handled it correctly it could have been groundbreaking and would have been just the thing to make Liefield the "bloke who wrote a classic storyline with a believable gay relationship
challenging the macho comics industry of the time" instead of the "bloke who gave Cap boobs"

Bob Z

So Liefed is annoyed about his character not being asexual rather than Gay? And would have have the same if the character was heterosexual?

ztoical

Don't know how many have seen this but a few guys attending comic con this year went up to Liefeld and looked for an apology for Hero's Reborn and then gave him a copy of how to draw the marvel way.

Have to say I don't agree with this at all...I've no issue with people disliking someones work, hell I don't like Liefelds work and wouldn't be all "O rob your works great" if I met him but I also wouldn't go out of my way to be dick to someone. With the whole shatterstar thing he put himself in it posting about the issue and then getting into an online altercation with Peter David. With this his sitting at a con table, fine say you didn't enjoy heros reborn but 'demanding' an apology and coming back with a copy of how to draw the marvel way that you've written a note in is just childish in my view.

Fysh

Yeah, I heard about this elsewhere. While not as bad as the time one of the recent 2000AD contributors had faeces sent to them through the post (!!!), it's still pretty pathetic to say the least.

subedei

ztoical wrote: »

Have to say I don't agree with this at all...I've no issue with people disliking someones work, hell I don't like Liefelds work and wouldn't be all "O rob your works great" if I met him but I also wouldn't go out of my way to be dick to someone. With the whole shatterstar thing he put himself in it posting about the issue and then getting into an online altercation with Peter David. With this his sitting at a con table, fine say you didn't enjoy heros reborn but 'demanding' an apology and coming back with a copy of how to draw the marvel way that you've written a note in is just childish in my view.

I completely aggree, this is just ****ty to do it to someone. Malicious to be honest, even if I hated someones work I still wouldnt be so disrespectful as this. Feel sorry for Liefield here, no one deserves this.

livingtargets

ztoical wrote: »

Don't know how many have seen this but a few guys attending comic con this year went up to Liefeld and looked for an apology for Hero's Reborn and then gave him a copy of how to draw the marvel way.

Have to say I don't agree with this at all...I've no issue with people disliking someones work, hell I don't like Liefelds work and wouldn't be all "O rob your works great" if I met him but I also wouldn't go out of my way to be dick to someone. With the whole shatterstar thing he put himself in it posting about the issue and then getting into an online altercation with Peter David. With this his sitting at a con table, fine say you didn't enjoy heros reborn but 'demanding' an apology and coming back with a copy of how to draw the marvel way that you've written a note in is just childish in my view.

Jesus,that`s horrible.
If you didn`t like the comic,don`t read it.
If you don`t like the creator,don`t go up to them at a convention or at least
be a bit bloody civil.

This=sheer dickery.