Photographer snobbery (rant warning)

LeoB

Perfect fit wrote: »

I dont agree with that at all, I wasnt being paid but my presence was more important to the club than his, the images were for them, he was paid by a local paper and had to be granted access by the club.

After speaking to the club director today me being the club photog i now have to grant/deny access to any apps that come threw lol thats a one up for me on that particular gentleman:p

Im quite happy i didnt go off the handle in reflection, i guess there comeupins eventually come in different forms!:D

I was'nt particurlarly having a dig at anyone. I just feel if a person is out trying to make a full time living we who have a passion for photography should not make it any more difficult. This to me is showing a little respect.

I am P.R.O of a fairly large club and we encourage people mainly parents to get as many shots of the players and we put them on our website. If the newspaper covers our game their guy might do the team photos and he is given the space to do so. He gets his few action shots and heads off. If we get anything decent we send them to paper and they might publish them. Most weeks they publish at least 1 we send in some weeks 3 or 4 if they have space. But I have a job and dont feel I or anyone else should jeprodise the livelehood of anyone.
Next thing is we will have some serious undercutting going on and no one will make a living from it.

Dragon you have a passion for what you are doing and thats great but someone who is just doing it for the skit could really mess up your day?

KarmaGarda

My attitude is I'm not breaking any laws or rules by taking photos. If he's a professional he should be taking way better shots than me anyway. If he's not taking better shots than me then he should find a new career.

Same goes for any career. I work as a software developer, but everyone these days are doing there own basic applications and web pages without my help. I don't go posting on their forums snarling "you're taking away my lively hood by doing that work for free".

Someone mentioned chefs previously too. Just because I can cook doesn't mean I'm putting chefs out of business.

What's next? If I run down the street an athlete is going to beat the crap out of me for stealing his career!

It's a free world. And it's all in the progression of life. We're there to keep them on their toes, they're here to push the limits even further, and show us why they are the professionals and us the amatures.

Dragan

LeoB wrote: »

Dragon you have a passion for what you are doing and thats great but someone who is just doing it for the skit could really mess up your day?

I have a contact on Flickr who lives in the Middle East. He predominantly takes conflict photos and he has photos on his stream of civilians, military personnel and even some of himself under fire.

I imagine that would mess up you day.

If something as small as someone else with a camera can mess up you day, i would think you need to work on your adaptability?

Tactical

Ricky91t wrote: »

Had another issue with another paper photographer but I've posted that before,All in all,They don't really like me :pac:

That's probably because she realises that you're good Ricky and feels threatened.

Yup, its competitive out there, there's no doubt about that and work is less plentyful than it has been but that's no excuse for such unprofessional behaviour.

In all the posts where people have met with abusive togs, they've just met with narrow minded bullies not photographers.

LeoB

Dragan wrote: »

I have a contact on Flickr who lives in the Middle East. He predominantly takes conflict photos and he has photos on his stream of civilians, military personnel and even some of himself under fire.

I imagine that would mess up you day.

If something as small as someone else with a camera can mess up you day, i would think you need to work on your adaptability?

Your friends life could mess up a lot of days ok. But I wa stalking about people just getting in the way of people doing their job could very well mess up a day. People who just want a photo for their wall and have no intention of sending them to papers or magazines. I dont think its ok for them to stand in a prime spot in front of photographer earning his or her living. Nobody with a camera will really mess up my day I dont make a living from it. I think I would be adaptable enough to move elsewhere
There are some really silly comparisions being made here.
.

charybdis

LeoB wrote: »

People who just want a photo for their wall and have no intention of sending them to papers or magazines. I dont think its ok for them to stand in a prime spot in front of photographer earning his or her living.

Why?

Surely the point of being a "professional" photographer is that you can produce results in spite of circumstances, not because you manipulate circumstances in your favour at the expense of others?

Freddie59

I've shot a few wedding DVDs for family and friends down through the years. I steer clear of them normally because the post-editing can be horrific, time-wise. I experienced the same from stills guys. And I knew the two worst offenders very well. They would cut across you, taking stills of shots you have seen or composed. Having said that, they were in the minority. Most of the other stills guys were absolute gents and, after introducing myself to them, I never had any problems.

But the amount of what can only be described as petty harassment as described here beggars belief. Life's too short.

Thirdfox

Late to the party but like everyone has said I just nod and smile... One particularly funny incident was when I met someone on holiday who was using a higher specification Nikon camera than me - the conversation went something like this:

Him: Oh, is that the D60? (Like mine...)
Me: Nope, just the D40.
Him: Ooooh, so just an amateur/beginner eh? (in a way to let you know that you're simply not as good as his equipment)
Me: *smile and nod*

Nowadays I still have my trusty D40, but with a backpack chock full of lenses I don't think people will be making those assumptions again. Then again - 4 of my 6 lenses cost under 35 euro

Fionn

hmmm i've never met anyone that downright rude as the op but i've often got the look now and then but usually i'm too wrapped up in what i'm doing to notice them too much, i remember taking shots in my area as Race Ireland came in and there was an almight scramble to record the first past the line - ya gotta use your elbows and anything else to get a clear view - tho there was no malice from anyone just a scramble!! if people get in your way get over it move to get a shot or like sorta jostle ya know!!
Weddings and stuff that your hired to do are obviously different, my pet annoyance (sorry any videographers in the house) is "de video man" i've had run ins with some - not saying they're all the same but my guy was using a Halogen lamp or something that lit up the scenes like the light from an atomic bomb
nuff said

PCPhoto

I've encountered those people and most of the time those "photographers" are either staff or "more mature"...
- The "more mature" photographer is set in his/her ways and believes that you may be moving in on his/her area, most of them are quite simply bullies !!!......
- The staffer is under pressure to get "the" pic and if someone gets in their way they yell,push,bump , it happened to me on a couple of occasions with one of the Irish Times photographers and once or twice with INPHO/SPORTSFILE photographers.

I tend to get out of their way - but I also make a point of telling them we're all here to get a pic (I'm a pro....ha,ha... I make my living from photography - better way of saying it).....usually they apologise afterwards !!

I've usually taken the time to help out other photographers (Pro or not), I've given lenses/bodies/flashes on loan to others sometimes for months on end, without sounding snobby I've slowly started believing that the more I help someone the more the chances that they'll take money from me (I work freelance so I depend on my work to pay my bills)....however...that doesnt stop me from helping others. (although I hate some new faces...with attitude !!.... them f@ckers just think they have a right to get their pic ...no-one has a right, but politeness will allow everyone to get their pic)

pullandbang

rahtkennades wrote: »

But if it's somebody trying to defend their livelihood, that's a different matter. You mentiuoned the sports editor taking his own pictures to save money. Well firstly he/she is getting paid to be an editor, not a photographer, so the time used to take pictures was wasted from their job. Second, the editor can't be in all places at all times, which is why they employ people to take the pictures for them.

Here's a good reason for editor's to stick to editing...:D:D



Pity he hadn't taken a picture to go with the headline!

AnCatDubh

had a friend who's wedding day picture was published in the paper with the headline over the adjoining story - "Man Condemned for Life" - obviously the headline shouldn't have been positioned over the wedding day bliss picture and related to a court sentencing

LeoB

charybdis wrote: »

Why?

Surely the point of being a "professional" photographer is that you can produce results in spite of circumstances, not because you manipulate circumstances in your favour at the expense of others?

Why!!! I am not saying anyone should manipulate any situation I am meerly saying IMO People who make a living from photography should be shown some courtsey like WE ALL expect, ok some dont deserve it. But when I am out with my camera at an event I would'nt get in their way delibritley I know quite a few who would on purpose and not give a toss about them and they are as bad as the ignorant person described in the OP.

charybdis

LeoB wrote: »

Why!!! I am not saying anyone should manipulate any situation I am meerly saying IMO People who make a living from photography should be shown some courtsey like WE ALL expect, ok some dont deserve it. But when I am out with my camera at an event I would'nt get in their way delibritley I know quite a few who would on purpose and not give a toss about them and they are as bad as the ignorant person described in the OP.

I think "people who make a living from photography" should be afforded same courtesies as anyone else with a camera; I don't see why someone planning on selling their photographs should expect priority over "people who just want a photo for their wall and have no intention of sending them to papers or magazines".

If a professional photographer is having difficulty producing results because of other photographers or their failure to secure a "prime spot" they're probably not in the right job.

Rainbowsend

Seems to be a fairly widespread complaint, which is sad to say the least, I am by no means a professional but have a "good" camera I remember once being on a beach where they were releasing a baby seal back into the wild and the local rag photographer was all business, as he strutted past me I said "any tips for a good shot" he just stomped by and snarled "NO" I just said he was a very sad man if he felt threatened by me, a big wave then came in and knocked him over, I was laughing so much I didnt even get a photo of it

Borderfox

charybdis wrote: »

I think "people who make a living from photography" should be afforded same courtesies as anyone else with a camera; I don't see why someone planning on selling their photographs should expect priority over "people who just want a photo for their wall and have no intention of sending them to papers or magazines".

If a professional photographer is having difficulty producing results because of other photographers or their failure to secure a "prime spot" they're probably not in the right job.

Very true, they only real blow up I had with a member of the public was at last years RDS when they started complaining about the area I was working in, as it turned out they were in the wrong area and by complaining they got turfed out. The man got quite violent in his manner and I thought I would have to subdue him with the monopod

I have never had an issue with getting the shots I need to sell even in large crowds or areas with lots of shooters, I am more than confident in my ablities to deliver quality for my clients.

Crazyscotty

i have been a victim of this

your work should show for itself

thats what i always say

Freddie59

Fionn wrote: »

my pet annoyance (sorry any videographers in the house) is "de video man" i've had run ins with some - not saying they're all the same but my guy was using a Halogen lamp or something that lit up the scenes like the light from an atomic bomb
nuff said

I was 'de video man', as you put it, at my niece's wedding in a castle near Loughrea. Were it not for the lighting that I brought with me on the day, the stills photographer said that it would have been impossible to photograph indoors - where we all ended up. In a castle...on a piddling, monsoon, very dark September day in Ireland.

Most modern cameras (such as the Canon XL-2) can almost shoot in the dark, with the resultant need for the faintest of additional light. Usually a very discreet on-board unit.

And while the image of 'de video man' is portrayed as some kind of oaf, these chaps, nowadays - due to the advent of digital - are very professional in their work. Yes there will always be buffoons - in both the stills and video fields.

gorilla_image

Ha! This is one of the best threads I've read... I had a similar incident happen to me a few weeks back. I was covering an event for a magazine (I'm a semi-pro, ie. a hack) and the only people hassling me were the auld fellas with their Leicas. We all have the same right to shoot. Amateur photographers on an outing, now there's a bunch of self-important gear-gazing geezers. "ooh, is that the new 10-728mm f2.8 Canikoon with Image Stabiliser and Critical moment indicator?". Thank God for digital, it has democratised and demystified photography. Which is what (IMO) makes the auld fellas jealous, we can learn in 2-3 years what they've taken decades to learn.

Fajitas!

Borderfox wrote: »

Very true, they only real blow up I had with a member of the public was at last years RDS when they started complaining about the area I was working in, as it turned out they were in the wrong area and by complaining they got turfed out. The man got quite violent in his manner and I thought I would have to subdue him with the monopod

I have never had an issue with getting the shots I need to sell even in large crowds or areas with lots of shooters, I am more than confident in my ablities to deliver quality for my clients.

This reminds me of a charity gig I was doing, I'd set up a studio at a rather large charity day in Dublin, and was shooting free family/group/friend photos for people that attended the day. I do a fair bit of work for different charities and enjoy it.

Some stereotypical photographer with his age-old Nikon F series with rolls of 100 iso film hanging off his 'camera jacket' turned up, and obviously thought I was charging because he started roaring out he'd do the same photos I was taking, except outside, and for free. He started trying to get a wind out of me for charging these poor poor people for their photos, and asking me if I really needed three lights, a digital SLR and a battery grip to do what he could do outside. F*ck off you prat... was nearly the response he received. Instead I pointed out the sign stating free photographs and asked if he'd mind stepping outside the door as he was causing a scene.

So, for what it's worth, there's enthusiasts out there that are just as annoying as the pros.

tankfly

Agree with Borderfox's approach to some extent. The news photography 'fraternity' is currently under seige by newbs and freelancers. Their livelyhoods are threatened by decreasing sales in Irish media. This makes them fierce when they are suspicious of another photographer possibly poaching their revenue.

My first big cockup as trainee news photographer was wearing bright red hoodie while casually walking around subject during 20 second event. I eventually twigged that outraged screams of pros were aimed at me. Got good video footage & bad rep.

The following day I was ambushed by five press photographers at news event, they pretty much surrounded me and shouted in my face, they said they would have me arrested for my behaviour (jumping the barrier and wrecking their photos). I meekly skulked to garda nearby, told him to take me in, he laughed, shook his head. Went back to press gang, told them sorry.

The examples in OP are typical of modern attitude to amateurs or newbs at news events. Ever wonder why so many TOGs have broken noses? Territorial by nature.

There are many polite news photographers out there, but a minority need some manners put on them.

OP if it happens again and you are within your rights: remain calm, smile, tell photographer you have as much right to be there as anyone else.

If they threaten to call stewards/Garda tell them to go right ahead, give your name and request their NUJ card/number.

If they ever put their hands on you in a threatening manner... well, I'm in borderfox's camp. Thump them in a definitive and prejudicial manner

AnCatDubh

Some great experience recalls here folks but I actually fear that we would be naive to think it was just photographers.

Is it just me or do others feel that society in the largest and generalised sense is becoming quite aggressive, demanding, rude, uncaring and in parts quite unsavoury. This is Ireland 2009 and worse still we've still to find our way out of the economic situation that the country is in with its subsequent impact on society and culture. Now, we'll find out what rudeness and demanding is all about.

The above, I think, translates into your interactions with the young wan in the corner shop who'll grunt and throw your change at you to the professional photographer who'll grunt at you and abuse you. (There obviously are exceptions in both corner shop culture and in the photographer profession).

Happy thoughts people. Happy thoughts.

Perfect fit

AnCatDubh wrote: »

Is it just me or do others feel that society in the largest and generalised sense is becoming quite aggressive, demanding, rude, uncaring and in parts quite unsavoury. This is Ireland 2009 and worse still we've still to find our way out of the economic situation that the country is in with its subsequent impact on society and culture. Now, we'll find out what rudeness and demanding is all about.

That being said, i used to love Ireland...until a 3 year stint in a 1 to 1 retail sales enviroment when the blinkers were removed. Needless to say the country is packed to the gills with i know it all, i think your below me, you work for me, i know my rights, im reporting you to joe duffy, ill see you in court, no not the company im personally sueing you (:rolleyes:) aggresive arrogant egotistical insecure insensitive rude repulsive pricks!

(Majority of Boards.ie members excluded )

Borderfox

Perfect fit wrote: »

That being said, i used to love Ireland...until a 3 year stint in a 1 to 1 retail sales enviroment when the blinkers were removed. Needless to say the country is packed to the gills with i know it all, i think your below me, you work for me, i know my rights, im reporting you to joe duffy, ill see you in court, no not the company im personally sueing you (:rolleyes:) aggresive arrogant egotistical insecure insensitive rude repulsive pricks!

(Majority of Boards.ie members excluded )

Thats a class rant, a pure gut-full of abuse..

Fajitas!

Here, I could give you a rant worthy of working for three years for a semi state public transport company... You think photographers are bad!? :pac:

keefg

Me at local charity event (which niece & nephew was involved with).....Snap...snap...snap

Him, red faced 50 something angry local press guy...."Hey you! you can't take any pictures here, press only.....RIGHT!!"

Me......silence.......raise camera...."Snap....snap...snap"

Him, almost boiling with anger "I'll have you f**king arrested, where are your credentials"

Me, surrounded by shocked family & onlookers....puts hand into jacket pocket...

Him, hold out hand to take my ID.

Me, removes empty hands from jacket pocket with middle finger extended and raises it to his face.

Family & onlookers start laughing at red faced man.

Him, mumbling something about "fookin' disgrace......tell fookin' gards I will..."

Me....Snap....snap...snap.

Anouilh

This is one of the most humourous threads I have ever read. Really, the Irish are so emotional...

Driving in Dublin is the best fun of all.

Very cross van driver, snarling down on woman driver... "It's a two way system!!!"

Driver, trying not to get mown down... "Well, you're up on top of me, dahling..."

Smiling and keeping one's sang froid, the only way forward...

smash

I was told last year that I was "putting professionals out of business" by a guy working for a local paper, who had no photography experience and just went for the job because he was unemployed.... very professional photographer there!

This local paper also doesn't buy photos from photographers that don't work for them, even if their own photographers don't get the shot!

On a side note, where do you get creditentials as a freelance photographer? In the states you can contact your local cop shop and they'll provide you with city issued Press Creditentials as a freelance photographer... is it the same here?

TelePaul

Never experienced this. Though if someone gave me guff when I was within my rights to shoot, I'd tell them to go **** themselves.

Micilin Muc

Apparently photography seems to be a lot more competitive in the US.

paulkellypix

I worked with a well known sports photographer once and found him abrasive to start - but I persisted and now we are good mates.

He didn't want to know me at all - felt that I would get in his way.

Mates now!