Boards.ie World XI - Winger/ Attcking Mid/ Playmaker

Boggles

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Evra just isn't a better footballer than the man pictured above. Every vote so far has had examples of fan biased voting. Why people feel the need to do it is beyond me, but I digress.

Because it is impossible to gauge. Lahm has been good this season but has been part of a team where defense was an after thought.

Evra has been a constant stand out performer in a team and defense of stand out performances.

Fact > Opinion

Left back spot has to go to Evra on that basis.

Mr Alan

Boggles wrote: »

Because it is impossible to gauge. Lahm has been good this season but has been part of a team where defense was an after thought.

Evra has been a constant stand out performer in a team and defense of stand out performances.

Fact > Opinion

Left back spot has to go to Evra on that basis.

constant standout performer?

are you joking?

he hasn't been average-poor this season.

yahoo_moe

To skip Iniesta because he doesn't score enough is to completely miss the point, I think - if you just fill your team with bags of goals, you can miss out on a certain amount of creativity and approach play.

Ronaldo in the last two years has largely given up on creating things and has instead focussed on being on the end of United's moves. But his lack of assists won't go against him, I'll bet (and nor should it if you've got others doing the approach work). Double standard.

Boggles

Mr Alan wrote: »

constant standout performer?

Yes

Mr Alan wrote: »

are you joking?

No

Mr Alan wrote: »

he hasn't been average-poor this season.

What?

~Rebel~

yahoo_moe wrote: »

To skip Iniesta because he doesn't score enough is to completely miss the point, I think - if you just fill your team with bags of goals, you can miss out on a certain amount of creativity and approach play.

Ronaldo in the last two years has largely given up on creating things and has instead focussed on being on the end of United's moves. But his lack of assists won't go against him, I'll bet (and nor should it if you've got others doing the approach work). Double standard.

Are you really going to try and say that a team with Essien, Xavi, Messi, Gerrard and Ronaldo isn't creative?! I would say the only one of those who isn't very creative is Ronaldo. Its not like Gerrard in for Iniesta is a real let down on creativity, he's slightly less creative, but scores way more goals. If teamed with Torres, i think the creativity is not even very different as Gerrard and Torres have a nigh on telepathic understanding, play amazing through balls and link ups together.

Pro. F

yahoo_moe wrote: »

To skip Iniesta because he doesn't score enough is to completely miss the point, I think - if you just fill your team with bags of goals, you can miss out on a certain amount of creativity and approach play.

Essien, Xavi, Messi & Ronaldo - there is boat loads of creativity and approach play there (Ronaldo still adds a good bit creatively imo).

Somebody has to be left out. If the team was 433 i would have picked Iniesta instead tbh.

Mr Alan

Boggles wrote: »

What?

Its a widely held view by most people who regularly watch football, including Utd fans....that Evra didn't have a particularly good season.

If you want to pretend that he was a standout performer all season, fair enough.

purple_hatstand

Maybe we should run this again from the start, omitting the players who got into the first XI; in order to pick a second XI. Then pick subs, managers and home grounds etc... for each team.

yerayeah

Boggles wrote: »

Because it is impossible to gauge. Lahm has been good this season but has been part of a team where defense was an after thought.

Evra has been a constant stand out performer in a team and defense of stand out performances.

Fact > Opinion

Left back spot has to go to Evra on that basis.

I'm a United fan but I have to pull you up on this! It is not fact that Evra was a stand out perfomer, it is your opinion.

A lot of people are making the point that Gerrard and Torres would work well together because they both play for Liverpool but you could also argue that Iniesta would work well with Torres/Villa because they play together with Spain imo...

Boggles

Mr Alan wrote: »

Its a widely held view by most people who regularly watch football, including Utd fans....that Evra didn't have a particularly good season.

If you want to pretend that he was a standout performer all season, fair enough.

Well I'm not going to go through every single United game (which I have seen by the way) with you,, a couple of fook ups against Aaron Lennon does not define his season for me.

I'm not alone in my opinion either.

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11662_5244801,00.html

Boggles

yerayeah wrote: »

I'm a United fan but I have to pull you up on this! It is not fact that Evra was a stand out perfomer, it is your opinion.

It's fact he has been part of the best defense who have been the most succesful team in europe the past 2 season.

So I guess it is a fact.

yerayeah

Boggles wrote: »

It's fact he has been part of the best defense who have been the most succesful team in europe the past 2 season.

So I guess it is a fact.

That doesn't make him standout performer as you stated he was... Pretty loose definition of fact! I picked Evra as well but my point was that stating that fact > opinion and then saying Evra was the best left back in the world because it is fact that he was a standout performer in the United defence, when, in fact, it is just your opinion is pretty ironic...

Mr Alan

Boggles wrote: »

It's fact he has been part of the best defense who have been the most succesful team in europe the past 2 season.

so John O'Shea should be a sure thing in the RB position then.

And VDS should be the goalie in this thing too :rolleyes:

your logic is so flawed its insane.....Evra was not a standout performer for Utd this season. When you're amazing defensive run was going this season quite rightfully, 99.9% of the praise went to Vidic,VDS & Ferdinand, with the other .1% going to O'Shea!

Mitch Connor

Mr Alan wrote: »

so John O'Shea should be a sure thing in the RB position then.

And VDS should be the goalie in this thing too :rolleyes:

your logic is so flawed its insane.....Evra was not a standout performer for Utd this season. When you're amazing defensive run was going this season quite rightfully, 99.9% of the praise went to Vidic,VDS & Ferdinand, with the other .1% going to O'Shea!

Absolute rubbish Al, absolute rubbish.

Rio was injured for most of it.

flahavaj

Iniesta for the central role flanked by Ronaldo and Messi for me. How anyone would even consider Gerrard ahead of Iniesta for this is beyond me. Iniesta was a class apart this year, any other choice is just blind club loyalty.

Boggles

Mr Alan wrote: »

so John O'Shea should be a sure thing in the RB position then.

And VDS should be the goalie in this thing too :rolleyes:

your logic is so flawed its insane.....Evra was not a standout performer for Utd this season. When you're amazing defensive run was going this season quite rightfully, 99.9% of the praise went to Vidic,VDS & Ferdinand, with the other .1% going to O'Shea!

Well Al, This Pole, the PFA team of the year and me disagree with you.

You are as usual in the minority old buddy.

Headshot

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Absolute rubbish Al, absolute rubbish.

Rio was injured for most of it.

Dont bite mitch

Mr alan needs to do some homework before posting
Tut tut tut your getting lazy alan

Mikeyt086

I actually agree with Mr.Alan on this.

Evra went through a patch of really bad form this season. So much so that he had to be dropped for a few games. When he came back he was back to his best so it had slipped most peoples minds but i was quite worried with the way Evra was playing for a while.

Needless to say I think Evra is among the top 3 left backs in the world. He had a poor patch, he recovered. But even still this isnt about who just had the best season, its about who is the best. The people have spoken.

Also, i spat out my tea at people saying Ronaldo isnt creative. He scores goals other people cant. He creates chances from nothing. Backheel from the corner against Villa? He invents new tricks to beat players. How is that not creative?

Boggles

Mikeyt086 wrote: »

Evra went through a patch of really bad form this season. So much so that he had to be dropped for a few games.

What games was he dropped for? :eek:

flahavaj

Mikeyt086 wrote: »

Also, i spat out my tea at people saying Ronaldo isnt creative. He scores goals other people cant. He creates chances from nothing. Backheel from the corner against Villa? He invents new tricks to beat players. How is that not creative?

Creative in terms of assists. His record of seting up goals and scoring chances for others is poor for a player that plays as far up the field as he does and a player who is regularly called the best in the world.

Boggles

flahavaj wrote: »

Creative in terms of assists. His record of seting up goals and scoring chances for others is poor for a player that plays as far up the field as he does and a player who is regularly called the best in the world.

Out in out goal scorers usually don't have good assist records, basically because they are greedy and will always opt to have a punt themselves.

Ronaldo was always encouraged to have a go, in 2006-07 season when he was played more of a winger in the league he did have 17 goals and 14 assists. Which is a great record.

~Rebel~

flahavaj wrote: »

Iniesta for the central role flanked by Ronaldo and Messi for me. How anyone would even consider Gerrard ahead of Iniesta for this is beyond me. Iniesta was a class apart this year, any other choice is just blind club loyalty.

How can you possibly say "blind club loyalty" when people have been explaining exactly what their reasons behind their decisions are?! Fair enough if people are just saying "nah biy, all gerrard biy", but thats not the case.

If you want to address those arguments, then do - dont just write off anything that you disagree with as blind loyalty.

Mr Alan

lol boggles at that link from Sky you put up.....Giggs best central midfielder in the league this year kind of makes a sham of that team.

Ashley Cole was far superior to Evra this year. Evra was better last year.

Mikeyt086

Boggles wrote: »

What games was he dropped for? :eek:

Off the top of my head i cant remember.

But i do remember everyone posting in the match thread "I hope Evra gets a rest" etc and then the team was announced and i said "Its good to see Evra get a rest, he has been struggling recently." Or something to that effect.

Sorry to be so vague lol, but i definately remember it. Evra is one of my favourite players, i got him on my blue shirt this season and made a YouTube compilation of him, so i wouldnt just be blasting Mad Pat.

purple_hatstand

Boggles wrote: »

It's fact he has been part of the best defense who have been the most succesful team in europe the past 2 season.

So I guess it is a fact.

Er, no.

Barca are European Champions.

By a mile.

Fact.

Mr Alan

dont mind Evra myself. cole on the other hand i dispise. so i'm not having a pop by saying Cole has been better this season, would think a lot of people would share the same view. including most Utd fans who as Mikey said above pointed out at numerous times throughout the season that Evra hadn't performed to the same level as the previous season.

boggles going on about "facts" is laughable, think he's turning into Rafa

Idu

purple_hatstand wrote: »

Er, no.

Barca are European Champions.

By a mile.

Fact.

In the last two years they have one win each. Thats some mile

Boggles

purple_hatstand wrote: »

Er, no.

Barca are European Champions.

By a mile.

Fact.

Think of what I said and think of what your saying.

I don't need to point it out to you do I?

Mitch Connor

didn't you read it boggles - Barce are CL Champions, by a mile....

Boggles

Mitch Connor wrote: »

didn't you read it boggles - Barce are CL Champions, by a mile....

1.6 km would have emphasised it more.

~Rebel~

Mr Alan wrote: »

boggles going on about "facts" is laughable, think he's turning into Rafa

you know what they say, if ya can't beat em, join em

purple_hatstand

Boggles wrote: »

Think of what I said and think of what your saying.

I don't need to point it out to you do I?

No, that's cool, thanks. I can see what you're doing - I just think it's fairly specious reasoning and I don't agree with you.

Reganio 2

Boggles wrote: »

Well Al, This Pole, the PFA team of the year and me disagree with you.

You are as usual in the minority old buddy.

Using the UBL (United bum lickers) Team of the year to back up your OPINION not fact is shocking.

Dickerty

flahavaj wrote: »

How anyone would even consider Gerrard ahead of Iniesta for this is beyond me. Iniesta was a class apart this year, any other choice is just blind club loyalty.

Em, because Gerrard is a more complete player? Scores more goals, better defensively, a better leader/motivator, more flexible positionally, stronger, a better header, and has a bigger impact on those around him.

Shall I go on?

You cannot judge this on one season. It is that sort of approach that made Spurs spend £16M on Bent, and £15M on Bentley.

eirebhoy

Dickerty wrote: »

Em, because Gerrard is a more complete player? Scores more goals, better defensively, a better leader/motivator, more flexible positionally, stronger, a better header, and has a bigger impact on those around him.

Shall I go on?

Iniesta is far more a complete player than Gerrard imo. Iniesta would turn England into a world class team in an instant imo. He has the playmaking skills that the likes of Gerrard and Lampard were never brought up on. As he said himself from day 1 it was, "Receive, pass, offer, receive, pass, offer".

Iniesta is on a different level to Gerrard with his passing and for me that gives him the biggest possible impact on those around him. He'd link up the talent in the English team in a second.

Boggles

Mr Alan wrote: »

lol boggles at that link from Sky you put up.....Giggs best central midfielder in the league this year kind of makes a sham of that team.

Alan that link from Sky was the PFA team of the year, I chose to link to sky because it had pictures for you.

Just because you voted for Cashley doesn't make you right Al, it's about opinion, so far the general opinion on this forum and others (including professional players) disagree with, your just going to have to come to terms with that.

Boggles

Dickerty wrote: »

a better leader/motivator,

He goes missing far too often in games to be considered a leader.

He leads when he is on song with his goals, but he is by no means a natural vocal leader on the pitch.

Boggles

Reganio 2 wrote: »

Using the UBL (United bum lickers) Team of the year to back up your OPINION not fact is shocking.

My sides just split - Brilliant!!

yerayeah

Dickerty wrote: »

Em, because Gerrard is a more complete player? Scores more goals, better defensively, a better leader/motivator, more flexible positionally, stronger, a better header, and has a bigger impact on those around him.

Shall I go on?

You cannot judge this on one season. It is that sort of approach that made Spurs spend £16M on Bent, and £15M on Bentley.

:eek:

Iniesta has been brilliant for several seasons now, he has just always been outshone by his more illustrious Barca teammates.

LuckyLloyd

Seaneh wrote: »

Kaka and Gerrards stats over the last two seasons for Goals and assists are insanely similar, and kaka missed 3-4 months of each season.

I think if you go down the stats track you HAVE to take kaka.

Well not imo, because of the relative strengths of the two domestic leagues. And Gerrard's increased production in the CL. Then, if you look outside of the stats, Gerrard is the better leader and brings much more of a physical presence to bear when your team doesn't have the ball.

Unearthly

EDIT

move on

carlop

Dickerty wrote: »

Em, because Gerrard is a more complete player? Scores more goals, better defensively, a better leader/motivator, more flexible positionally, stronger, a better header, and has a bigger impact on those around him.

Shall I go on?

You cannot judge this on one season. It is that sort of approach that made Spurs spend £16M on Bent, and £15M on Bentley.

Iniesta hardly appeared overnight! He's been top class for a number of years, he is only getting the recognition he deserves now due to Barca winning the Champions League and him scoring against Chelsea.

Gerrard probably is better in the categories you mentioned, with the exception of being more flexible positionally which I would actually believe to be true of Iniesta.

However, Iniesta is a better passer of the ball and is also one of the best in the world with the ball at his feet. His ability to beat players is only bettered by the likes of Messi and Ronaldo, and it is this added dimension to his game that elevates him ahead of Gerrard.

You said that this cannot be judged on one season. I would counter that this cannot be judged on one country's domestic league.

Bobalicious93

--Messi----Rooney----Ronaldo--

Mr Maroon

Messi---Kaka---Ronaldo

Warper

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Well not imo, because of the relative strengths of the two domestic leagues. And Gerrard's increased production in the CL. Then, if you look outside of the stats, Gerrard is the better leader and brings much more of a physical presence to bear when your team doesn't have the ball.

I'm not so sure about Gerrard being the better leader - Kaka was the main man for Milan the past couple of years and lead by example. He is now Brazil's No. 1 player as well and they look to him to provide the spark. Gerrard is undoubtably the main man for Liverpool but has never been England's main man and this is what separates them. Kaka has also collected the World Player of the Year award which reflects his talent.

flahavaj

~Rebel~ wrote: »

How can you possibly say "blind club loyalty" when people have been explaining exactly what their reasons behind their decisions are?! Fair enough if people are just saying "nah biy, all gerrard biy", but thats not the case.

If you want to address those arguments, then do - dont just write off anything that you disagree with as blind loyalty.

You make a good point, except for the fact that 90% if the people who voted for Gerrard are undoubtedly Liverpool fans, the vast majority of whom have not gone to the trouble of backing up their point. A handful have, the rest haven't. Hence the term, blind club loyalty.:D

flahavaj

Dickerty wrote: »

Em, because Gerrard is a more complete player? Scores more goals, better defensively, a better leader/motivator, more flexible positionally, stronger, a better header, and has a bigger impact on those around him.

Shall I go on?

You cannot judge this on one season. It is that sort of approach that made Spurs spend £16M on Bent, and £15M on Bentley.

Apart from goalscoring ability, none of the attributes you attribute to Gerrard are anywhere near as important in a player as passing ability, ball control, ability to beat a man in a tight situation and ablity to control the tempo of a big game. All of which are the attributes that place Iniesta streets ahead of Gerrard as a player ESPECIALLY in the position we are discussing in this instance.

And lets not discount Gerrard's repeated embarrassing failure to show up at international level, as compared to Iniesta's fine showings at Euro 2008, where he was named in team of the tournnament.

As for the "one season" rubbish, Iniesta has been absolutely brilliant since he broke into the Barca team. Just because the majority of people only copped on in the last few months, doesn't make it any less true.

Bounty Hunter

I think i posted once or twice but never actually stated which way i voted

twas...

Messi---Gerrard---Ronaldo

which i suspect will just about win out as the selected three with those missing out being, in order of no. of votes:

Kaka
Iniesta
Ribery
-quite a gap then to-
Rooney

Pro. F

flahavaj wrote: »

You make a good point, except for the fact that 90% if the people who voted for Gerrard are undoubtedly Liverpool fans,

Joke? At least have a look through the thread if you're going to say who voted for him.

Davaeo09

Ok, I need to point some thing out listening to this Gereard vs Iniesta debate.

Barca have a weak defence but make up for it by possession football.
Iniesta's passing and creativity is far better than Gerard's which is what the people in this role are supposed to do, plus, in reality he would sit deeper than Messi and Ronaldo, or who ever makes this cut, allowing more freedom.

I just hate seeing Iniesta under rated. Also this bull**** about his goal scoring not being good, he scored many VITAL (as in match deffining) goals this season, and not only that, but he has a really impressive assit total ( I'll find the exact figure soon)

And

Id like to see how many times he hit the posts because it has to be in double figures man. He is pretty unlucky with his finishing