ceann beag nó ceann bheag?

pog it

Was in shop today and after the shopkeeper asked me 'bhfuil tú ag iarraidh mála?' I came back with, 'Tá, ceann beag, led' thoil' (mála is masculine).

Now I was wondering about the 'beag' as adjective bit since to me ceann bheag sounds more natural for some reason ..

If it had of been a feminine noun I was referring to, such as 'coinneal' would I have to change it to 'ceann bheag'?
Or is is always going to be ceann beag, since ceann is masculine and it's the ceann that you go by, not what ceann stands for?

And difference then between caighdeán and what they say in the Gaeltacht?

conchubhar1

i would say ceann bheag - as ceann is masculine and i think that is how it works

im not sure tho

it is the tuiseal ginideach? two words together....


as with variations - that would depend on dialect and gaeltacht

jamesnp

ceann beag is correct

When the noun is masculine in the nominative singular, the qualifying adjective does not under go any initial mutations.

However, if the word was feminine:
cathaoir bheag
(a) small chair

the adjective would under go lenition, ie. the séimhiú.

In terms of what's said in the Gaeltacht and in the caighdeán... funnily enough this is one of the few rules that is solid across all gaeltachtaí.

-jp

conchubhar1

is it not genitive tho?

one noun and an adjective?

pog it

jamesnp wrote: »

ceann beag is correct

Is this still the case if the noun that Ceann is standing in for is feminine?

i.e. referring to coinneal (Fem) (ceann beag)
referring to mála (Masc.) (ceann beag)

pog it

conchubhar1 wrote: »

is it not genitive tho?

one noun and an adjective?

second noun goes into genitive if two nouns are coming together.
Beag is an adjective.

jamesnp

pog it wrote: »

Is this still the case if the nounthat Ceann is standing in for is feminine?

i.e. referring to coinneal (Fem) (ceann beag)
referring to mála (Masc.) (ceann beag)

Even though, in a weird way, it behaves like a pronoun - no, it's still a masculine noun regardless of what it refers to.

-jp

pog it

Deadly, míle buíochas. And is it too much to ask you- do you know in native speak would 'ceann bheag' be more the pronunciation (in Connacht dialect for example perhaps?). I can't think of where I've heard it said, but for some reason I have (in terms of pronunciation/sound) the bh sound in my head!!

Just to be clear on what I'm asking- For example with féin it's actually pronounced as 'fhéin' in Connacht dialect, but 'féin' in Cork, Achill and some parts of Kerry.. was wondering if it's same with ceann beag.. ya never know

conchubhar1

ah indeed

my bad - when is it that adjectives take a ''h'' or go into t.g?

pog it

conchubhar1 wrote: »

ah indeed

my bad - when is it that adjectives take a ''h'' or go into t.g?

Adjectives take a 'h' after feminine nouns and no change occurs to them after masculine nouns
If you have two definite nouns coming directly together, then the second one goes into genitive but the rules of séimhiú of adjective still apply as well.

jamesnp

This is one that's the same in all Gaeltachtaí... though, I suppose there are some speakers that will just throw it in for good measure - usually a native speaker wouldn't make the mistake as it would simply sound 'wrong'.

If you're hearing it in your head when you speak, and are getting confused, it could be because you've simply heard it wrong so many times - ceann beag being a fairly common phrase. I read a study once (can't remember the author, so forgive the vague reference) that said that during language acquisition it only takes hearing something incorrect six times until it's stuck in your head and easily confused.

-jp

conchubhar1

''Más firinscneach an t-ainmfhocal, cuir séimhiú ar an aidiacht. (Níal feidhm ag riail an "dentals" sa chás seo.)
If the noun is masculine, aspirate the adjective. (The "dentals" rule does not apply here.)''

no?

conchubhar1

so - cailín bheag?

jamesnp

conchubhar1 wrote: »

''Más firinscneach an t-ainmfhocal, cuir séimhiú ar an aidiacht. (Níal feidhm ag riail an "dentals" sa chás seo.)
If the noun is masculine, aspirate the adjective. (The "dentals" rule does not apply here.)''

no?

I'm confused as to what you're getting at? That's the rule we're following, alright...?

jamesnp

conchubhar1 wrote: »

so - cailín bheag?

hehe, that's a bit of a false friend there. Cailín is a masculine noun.

Cailín beag is correct.

-jp

conchubhar1

ceann is masculine

beag is an ajective


ceann bheag is right?

---

ah my bad

iníon bheag? by your rules - but you aspirate adjectives after masculine only

so it should be iníon beag?

jamesnp

conchubhar1 wrote: »

ceann is masculine

beag is an ajective


ceann bheag is right?

No. Read back over the discussion. I think you're getting yourself confused.

ceann is a masculine noun
beag is an adjective

When an adjective comes after a masculine noun in the singular, nothing changes. ie. carr beag

When an adjective comes after a feminine noun in the singular, you lenite (ie. put in a séimhiú) the adjective. ie. iníon bheag

-jp

conchubhar1

jamesnp wrote: »

I'm confused as to what you're getting at? That's the rule we're following, alright...?

no - you are following that ceann is masculine but it makes beag stay beag

whereas it should have a h by the above rule?

i think we are both getting confused!

jamesnp

conchubhar1 wrote: »

no - you are following that ceann is masculine but it makes beag stay beag

whereas it should have a h by the above rule?

Oh right, my bad. Must have read it wrong. The rule "If the noun is masculine, aspirate the adjective. (The "dentals" rule does not apply here.)" is incorrect.

It should be:
If the noun is feminine, lenite the adjective.

Aspirate is an older (less correct) way of saying lenite.

-jp

conchubhar1

right

well if you disagree with that rule - all is grand. it was you agreeing with that but stating the rest which was confusing me.

seimhiú - put a h on it - not sure the correct english for it

jamesnp

conchubhar1 wrote: »

right

well if you disagree with that rule - all is grand. it was you agreeing with that but stating the rest which was confusing me.

seimhiú - aspirate/lentite

all is well with the world again!

conchubhar1

not quite - all is well where this grammar problem in irish is concerned - i think!!

pog it

conchubhar1 wrote: »

''Más firinscneach an t-ainmfhocal, cuir séimhiú ar an aidiacht. (Níal feidhm ag riail an "dentals" sa chás seo.)
If the noun is masculine, aspirate the adjective. (The "dentals" rule does not apply here.)''

no?

Conchubhar- where did you see that written?

conchubhar1

http://www.cainteoir.com/Gramadach.aspx?Abhar=ainmfhocal_aidiacht

jamesnp

conchubhar1 wrote: »

on a website - which i know now not to trust!
now luckily i only seen and used it today!

http://www.cainteoir.com/Gramadach.aspx?Abhar=ainmfhocal_aidiacht

it could be for a certain dialect? still i am going to avoid it

Ah, i see the issue. That phrase applies to the genitive.

nualeargais.ie/gnag/gram.htm is a better grammar guide.

-jp

pog it

Oh Conchubhar- you picked that quote out of another category- Cainteoir was talking there about what happens to adjectives when they are in the genitive. Have a look down through it again.
That website is really fantastic. It has a section on 'numerals/numbers' and it covers absolutely every detail. Yer man is excellent and a very safe source to trust.

conchubhar1

indeed you are right!