Auschwitz Museum Director Reveals 'Gas Chamber' Hoax

polishpaddy

King Mob wrote: »

You're kidding right?
The extermination of Jews, Gypsies, Gays, Communists, the disabled and anyone else the Nazis deemed undesirables.
What other extermination do you think we're taking about?

Diogenes has asked this same question twice quite clearly.
It's mostly a rhetorical device however because regardless of your belief it is clearly evident that an industrialised extermination program was enacted in Germany.

The actual question is: do you think Hitler wouldn't have know about it?

They're simple yes or no questions.

Your saying he exterminated these people -how did they do that exactly?

King Mob

polishpaddy wrote: »

Your saying he exterminated these people -how did they do that exactly?

You're serious?
If you don't know five minutes on wikipedia won't kill you.

Do you believe that there was a industrial extermination program in Nazi Germany, Yes or no?

Diogenes

polishpaddy wrote: »

We cannot leave aside such a statement.Thats ridiculous.There is no document thats what i said and thats what is true. If you don't want to dwell on this little issue, tell me, As your going round in circles asking me other questions which i asked did u want to go back to, but you keep asking new ones....

There's no Document saying "Lets Invade Poland" Does that mean the Nazis didn't invade Poland? Theres no document signed by Nixon ordering the watergate break-ins does that mean watergate didn't happen?

polishpaddy

King Mob wrote: »

You're serious?
If you don't know five minutes on wikipedia won't kill you.

Do you believe that there was a industrial extermination program in Nazi Germany, Yes or no?

How can I answer your question if i don't know what your asking me?How did they exterminate them? I don'#t mind talking about such things if i know what the subject matter is.

King Mob

polishpaddy wrote: »

How can I answer your question if i don't know what your asking me?How did they exterminate them? I don'#t mind talking about such things if i know what the subject matter is.

In concentration camps. Where they herded people to be put into gas chambers and ovens.
You know: the Holocaust.

What the hell do you think we're talking about?

Do you believe people where brought to camps where they where killed en mass in the thousands for the purpose of exterminating groups which the Nazis deemed undesirable?
Yes or no?

Diogenes

polishpaddy wrote: »

How can I answer your question if i don't know what your asking me?How did they exterminate them? I don'#t mind talking about such things if i know what the subject matter is.

Are you just being willfully obtuse. You're not aware of the camps? The gassing, the shootings, the mass starvation.

If you're so convinced that Hitler never ordered the Holocaust, what do you think happened in the Warsaw Ghetto?

Collie D

polishpaddy wrote: »

Well we have agreement so there was no order from hitler to murder millions of jews.

I really can't believe I'm reading this tripe. I am assuming you are Polish? I cannot believe somebody of your nationality could question the existence of the Holocaust.

Let me ask you this question if you remain unconvinced that Hitler didn't order these murders. Do you think he was unaware of them?

watty

Of course there was. We don't have an actual signed order from Hitler but it's beyond any doubt whatsoever that it was his order.

And a huge mountain of evidence exists.


He was obsessed with eradication of Jews completely from the Earth. Have you read any Translation of Mien Kampf?

Or William Shirer's "Rise and fall of the Third Reich"?

Or "The War Against the Jews: 1933-1945"

Or about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristallnacht

Or Hitler's close friend http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Goebbels

Hitler said:
"Today I will once more be a prophet: If the international Jewish financiers in and outside Europe should succeed in plunging the nations once more into a world war, then the result will not be the Bolshevization of the earth, and thus the victory of Jewry, but the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe!"

Joseph Goebbels wrote:

"Regarding the Jewish Question, the Führer is determined to clear the table. He warned the Jews that if they were to cause another world war, it would lead to their own destruction. Those were not empty words. Now the world war has come. The destruction of the Jews must be its necessary consequence"

Reinhard Heydrich wrote
Enclosed I am sending you the minutes of the proceedings that took place on January 20, 1942.

Since the basic position regarding the practical execution of the final solution of the Jewish question has fortunately been established by now, and since there is a full agreement on the part of all agencies involved. I would like to ask you at the request of the Reich Marshal to make one of your specialist officials available for the necessary discussion of details in connection with the completion of the draft that shows the organizational, technical and material prerequisites bearing on the actual starting point of the projected solutions.


The fact that Hitler wanted and ordered Genocide (Complete Eradication of the Jews) is not in Doubt. The only Doubt is if the "Final Solution" was in his mind in the 1920s, or 1933 when his campaign against them started in earnest or if it was 1942 when the attempted Genocide may have started.
http://www.holocaust-history.org/hitler-final-solution/

There is no doubt in my mind that a major influence in attacking Russia was to exterminate Russian Jewry.

First, it is now undeniable that Hitler personally ordered the overall Final Solution decision; second, the decision was not made prior to the invasion of the Soviet Union - rather, the ultimate decision was taken near the end of 1941; third, the Final Solution was not a smoothly evolving process, but rather more dependant on the vagaries of the war effort.

Hence the announcement of the "Final Solution" after invasion of Russia
...
Hitler Personally Ordered The Final Solution

Most experts have agreed that an action on the magnitude of a mass genocide, with the resultant possible ramifications, could not have proceeded without Hitler's personal approval. Until now, no written decision from Hitler has been found, although there are compelling indications that a verbal decision was certainly given. The recent discoveries cannot be called a written decision (which, if it ever existed, was almost certainly destroyed by the end of the war), but they are certainly unequivocal confirmation that a clear decision was taken by Hitler. Even better, they help pinpoint the time it was taken.

See also
http://www.holocaust-history.org/der-ewige-jude/hitler-19390130.shtml
Hitler's speech to the Reichstag of January 30, 1939 is the climax of Der ewige Jude (The Eternal Jew). The leader of Germany provides a horrifying resolution to the "Jewish problem" as it was laid out in the previous hour of film.

IrelandSpirit

Diogenes wrote: »

And again I'll ask why do you think they destroyed all the documentary evidence of extermination programs? I don't think you understand the question, I'm not asking you "why did they destroy all the documentary evidence". I'm asking you "why do you think they destroyed all the documentary evidence". Because there are vast amounts (and I'm talking millions of files here) recovered that document the holocaust.






Source

Diogenes! Your nit-picking over this question is driving me crazy!

I’m going to explain it for you one last time. The Nazis didn’t appear to make an attempt to hide their medical experiments on human beings, these programs are well documented and the finding from that research is still used today. My question was simply aimed at the inconsistency of how thorough they appear to be at coving up the mass-murder in the camps, but failed to cover up their human experiment programs – both of which are crimes against humanity and would have meant a death sentence at the Nuremberg trials or any such legal proceedings.
I was referring to the documentation, obviously, not the homicidal gas chamber and ovens which they didn’t destroy and were featured in Cole’s video. Alleged homicidal chamber and ovens, I should say, I’m determined to keep an open mind on this until all the points Cole raised are satisfactorily debunked. In regards the Auschwitz crematoria, it might very-well have been built to deal with the first typhus epidemic, as claimed.
(As to why they didn’t destroy all traces of their human experimentation programs, I don’t know… I have a theory but it’s a bit off topic.)
I will admit that I’ve shifted my viewpoint on this issue of camp documentation a little, as by what you say the Nazis didn’t make any attempt to cover up this evidence either – “millions of files” exist, you say, and I have no reason to believe you are lying.

In the Cole video we see what appears to be a homicidal gas chamber which, we are assured by the guide conducting the tour, is in its original condition. We then find out it was reconstructed by the Soviets after the camp was liberated, so it turns out not to be in its original condition after all.
Why are the Auschwitz Museum tour guides lying?
Apart from the fact that evidence, tampered like that (reconstructed) would not be admissible as valid (in any respectable museum or court of law too), what is that gas chamber doing there anyway? The Nazis knew the Allies were advancing, why wasn’t this incriminating evidence destroyed?

Which begs the question, was the reason it wasn’t destroyed, due to fact it wasn’t a homicidal gas chamber after all?

Before you jump all over that question too, let me just say that I do not trust anybody’s version of events, neither the Allies nor the Nazis. From reading the posts here and at this stage of my research, it appears that all sides in the war had their own agendas and are therefore at best unreliable – not least the Allies tampering with (reconstructing) the evidence of a crime scene – and I certainly wouldn’t trust condemned Nazis to be telling the truth either.

I mentioned the International Committee of the Red Cross earlier because that’s an impartial organisation, which would have no motive to cover anything up and least of all for mass-murdering Nazis. They were there at the camps and kept records too, many of which are (apparently) quoted all over the net. I have found many references to these reports, saying the ICRC recorded only deaths from accident and disease, and no I do not (and cannot) at this stage believe this either, I’d need to study the records themselves and from a reliable (impartial) source.

It is also highly unlikely (in my mind) that the ICRC would fail to notice a mass-extermination program involving millions of people, in a relatively confined space and over a 5 year period. And that they wouldn’t present this evidence at the Nuremberg trials, or at least mention it somewhere. I’ve read some claims tonight that the ICRC weren’t allowed to present evidence at the trials, and others that the ICRC themselves abstained. Again, I’m not going to jump in there without cross-referencing with reliable sources.

Can you please point me to these records from the time the ICRC spent at the camps, and where I can find the mistakes you say the ICRC admitted to making, so that I can compare the two?

I hope the above clears things up for you. If you still don’t understand what I meant, please don’t bother asking again, I will not waste any more of my time trying to explain.

If you don’t have the ICRC reports that I, and yerself mention, don’t worry either I will find them eventually. If you can provide me with a link though, I will be very grateful.

Thanks a million.

King Mob

So the guy who was interviewed saying that Cole misrepresented him doesn't debunk the claims?
How about where he reinforces the fact that he believes the exact opposite of what the video and you are claiming?

IrelandSpirit

Yeah, i know, i hear ya and you've got a valid point - it doesn't make any sense - unless he'd been 'got to' or threatened in some way after the video was released? Or he felt that he might be, perhaps? In the video it does seem to be a genuine slip up, to me, until proven otherwise. Because the question is why would he say that in the first place, if it was'nt true?

King Mob

IrelandSpirit wrote: »

Yeah, i know, i hear ya and you've got a valid point - it doesn't make any sense - unless he'd been 'got to' or threatened in some way after the video was released? Or he felt that he might be, perhaps? In the video it does seem to be a genuine slip up, to me, until proven otherwise. Because the question is why would he say that in the first place, if it was'nt true?

Or maybe Cole deliberately misrepresented him?

IrelandSpirit

True, how do ya mean though?

King Mob

IrelandSpirit wrote: »

True, how do ya mean though?

Have you actually read the letter Piper wrote in response to the video?

3. Cole maintains that I first time admitted the allegedly
unknown fact the Nazis adapted the crematorium in question in
which the gas chamber were located for air-raid shelter, the fact
allegedly unknown even for Museum guides. It is un truth. See
enclosed copies of pages from the books which constitute the
fundamental reading for Auschwitz guides. In book by T-an Sehn
"Concentrat Camp Ogwiqcim-Brzezinka (Auschwitz-Birkenau)Warsaw 1957,
You may read on the page 152-"In May 1944 the old Crematorium
I in the base camp was adapted for use as an air raid shelter

The Fact is also confirmed in the book by Jean Claude Pressac
"Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas chambers,
published by The Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, New York 1989 (515
Madison Avenue). On the page 157 you may read: "With part of the
building converted to an air raid shelter, this is the state in which
the SS abandoned Krematorium I in January 1945" Repeating what
Pressac had written I told what was the nature of the
adaptation works carried out by the Nazis and what one had to do to
remove those changes in order to regain the previous appearance.
They are all "Pipers revelations. In spite of the fact that
such secondary restoration works had to be done there is an
undisputable reality that the gas chamber in question is housed in the same
building which has been existed from prewar times till now.

IrelandSpirit

thanks, I was just reading that from the first post.

It's this part that gets me, the last line:

Pipers revelations. In spite of the fact that
such secondary restoration works had to be done there is an
undisputable reality that the gas chamber in question is housed in the same
building which has been existed from prewar times till now.


The fact it's in the same building is kinda imaterial to me, as evidence - evidance that's been tampered with is just that.

You see, we’ve got to bear in mind this is a very senior and highly respected authority, according to his wiki profile Dr Pip is the Chair of the Historical Department at the Auschwitz Museum, he knows what he’s talking about, and I just can’t believe he’d say something like that in his first statements unless it was true.

However, I can believe that someone in his position, after having his videoed statements plastered all over youtube, would be left with no choice but to try to recant, somehow. Affect some kind of damage control.

The jury is still out in my mind. I'm going to look into this deeper, time permiting. It's the ICRC reports i'm really after at this stage, personally.

Thanks again,

IrelandSpirit

i meant Dr Piper... spell check's gone nuts!

IrelandSpirit

King Mob. Can I ask you a quick question, before I hand IrelandSpirit over to my colleague… and will ya answer it honestly, because I don’t seem to getting anything out of this forum information-wise and seem to be having to repeat myself over and over…

The question still remains, why did Dr Piper make those statements about the reconstruction work in the first place?

What do you think, genuinely?

King Mob

IrelandSpirit wrote: »

King Mob. Can I ask you a quick question, before I hand IrelandSpirit over to my colleague… and will ya answer it honestly, because I don’t seem to getting anything out of this forum information-wise and seem to be having to repeat myself over and over…

The question still remains, why did Dr Piper make those statements about the reconstruction work in the first place?

What do you think, genuinely?

Because there was reconstruction done.
The fact is Cole misrepresented him.

This is explained in the letter.

IrelandSpirit

IrelandSpirit wrote: »

thanks, I was just reading that from the first post.

It's this part that gets me, and the last line:

Pipers revelations. In spite of the fact that
such secondary restoration works had to be done there is an
undisputable reality that the gas chamber in question is housed in the same
building which has been existed from prewar times till now.


The fact it's in the same building is kinda imaterial to me, as evidence - evidance that's been tampered with is just that.

You see, we’ve got to bear in mind this is a very senior and highly respected authority, according to his wiki profile Dr Pip is the Chair of the Historical Department at the Auschwitz Museum, he knows what he’s talking about, and I just can’t believe he’d say something like that in his first statements unless it was true.

However, I can believe that someone in his position, after having his videoed statements plastered all over youtube, would be left with no choice but to try to recant, somehow. Affect some kind of damage control.

The jury is still out in my mind. I'm going to look into this deeper, time permiting. It's the ICRC reports i'm really after at this stage, personally.

Thanks again,

King Mob wrote: »

Because there was reconstruction done.
The fact is Cole misrepresented him.

This is explained in the letter.

And if you were, say, going to be tried for a crime on the basis of evidence that was reconstructed years after the fact, would you feel represented fairly?

King Mob

IrelandSpirit wrote: »

And if you were, say, going to be tried for a crime on the basis of evidence that was reconstructed years after the fact, would you feel represented fairly?

You realise no one was convicted purely on the construction of a gas chamber right?

Cole claimed that this was the first time the was such a revelation.
This is not so.

Piper quite clearly states (and can back up) the fact that there were mass murders in the gas chambers contrary to what the article is claiming.

IrelandSpirit

Yes, I do realise this, I was alluding the fact that as evidence of a crime, (gas chamber, krema 1, mass-murders etc) once that evidence has been physically tampered with, (reconstructed, rebuilt, etc) it cannot then be presented as valid evidence for the aforementioned crime.

Forgive me, it's late for me and I have to hand this over now. Thanks a million, and continue questioning, debunking and conspiring for Truth!

Susan

King Mob

IrelandSpirit wrote: »

Yes, I do realise this, I was alluding the fact that as evidence of a crime, (gas chamber, krema 1, mass-murders etc) once that evidence has been physically tampered with, (reconstructed, rebuilt, etc) it cannot then be presented as valid evidence for the aforementioned crime.

Forgive me, it's late for me and I have to hand this over now. Thanks a million, and continue questioning, debunking and conspiring for Truth!

Susan

Well why can't it?
If there is evidence to show it was reconstructed and when and how. And if there where photos of it before reconstruction.

And there was plenty of evidence at Auschwitz other than this one gas chamber that would convict people.
Piper explains this in the letter.

And does it not bother you that both the video and the article so bad misrepresented Piper at all?

IrelandSpirit

King Mob wrote: »

Well why can't it?
If there is evidence to show it was reconstructed and when and how. And if there where photos of it before reconstruction.

And there was plenty of evidence at Auschwitz other than this one gas chamber that would convict people.
Piper explains this in the letter.

And does it not bother you that both the video and the article so bad misrepresented Piper at all?

Nope, I don't think anything about this thread bothered her much by the end of it, Su's main concern was over those ICRC reports; that's her bag now.


:eek::pac::eek::pac::eek::pac::eek::pac::eek::pac::eek::pac::eek:

Off I am too, explore another forum, or not....................

Might catch ya later. Never know.

Good luck

watty

IrelandSpirit wrote: »

I’m going to explain it for you one last time. The Nazis didn’t appear to make an attempt to hide their medical experiments on human beings, these programs are well documented and the finding from that research is still used today. My question was simply aimed at the inconsistency of how thorough they appear to be at coving up the mass-murder in the camps, but failed to cover up their human experiment programs –

But this is nonsense. There are lorry loads of documents. There was no extra cover up of the exterminations compared with human experiments.

Google "concentration camp" railway ticket "one-way"

Neither had a blow by blow account in the morning papers of course. Also they didn't destroy records. The fact is the extermination procedure mitigated against detailed records:

The deportation method, as carried out by the German authorities in
the General Government, was 'en masse', without lists of names or
even exact numbers. Usually ghettos were totally liquidated, and
only the killing capacity of the camps and the volume of the trains
dictated the number of people who were deported. In places where
some Jews were temporarily left behind, the Germans counted the few
who remained, while all the others were pushed into the trains.

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/holocaust/reinhard/part02/


We even have the documentation of the railway fares. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_train

The most modern accurate numbers on the scale of the Final Solution still rely today partly on shipping records of the German railways

This information is extensively used in the book "The war against the Jews"

The Wannsee* Conference was held on January 20, 1942, in Berlin, to coordinate the implementation of the proposed "Final Solution". At Wannsee, the SS estimated that the "Final Solution"--which was already under way--would ultimately involve 11 million European Jews; Nazi planners envisioned the inclusion of Jews living in neutral or non-occupied countries such as Ireland, Sweden, Turkey, and Great Britain.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005445


There is overwhelming unambiguous evidence that the NAZIs used the camps to kill people. And while homosexuals, dissidents, Gypsies and mentally deficient were targets their plan was to kill every Jew.

(* relevant posts earlier)


The video is hotch potch of lies and mis-information. It wasn't envisaged that there would be such holocaust denial conspiracy, or else no doubt they would not have done the work to turn the air raid shelter back into a Gas chamber. But as has been said that is not needed to convict anyone. If it had been bulldozed to the ground it makes no difference to the overwhelmingly weight of evidence.

I was at the Celtic park and Gardens in Limerick. There is a reconstructed Iron Age village and an Ogham stone. It's all actually fake. Does that mean that the Celts didn't exist and other Ogham stones are made with angle grinders? Bear in mind the guy that made this video totally distorted the interview and took the facts out of context and lies about other things. The building was an air raid shelter converted from a Gas Chamber. The allies shortly after the war restored it to the previous function not in an attempt to convince people that there was an attempt at Genocide when there wasn't, but to illustrate for visitors how the process worked. No-one was doing it to fabricate evidence. No extra evidence is or was needed.

Diogenes

IrelandSpirit wrote: »

Diogenes! Your nit-picking over this question is driving me crazy!

It's not "nit picking".

I’m going to explain it for you one last time. The Nazis didn’t appear to make an attempt to hide their medical experiments on human beings, these programs are well documented and the finding from that research is still used today. My question was simply aimed at the inconsistency of how thorough they appear to be at coving up the mass-murder in the camps, but failed to cover up their human experiment programs – both of which are crimes against humanity and would have meant a death sentence at the Nuremberg trials or any such legal proceedings.

The medical experiments involved a tiny group of people, while the numbers involved in the Holocaust runs into the tens of thousands. Are you incapable of understanding that?

I was referring to the documentation, obviously, not the homicidal gas chamber and ovens which they didn’t destroy and were featured in Cole’s video. Alleged homicidal chamber and ovens, I should say, I’m determined to keep an open mind on this until all the points Cole raised are satisfactorily debunked. In regards the Auschwitz crematoria, it might very-well have been built to deal with the first typhus epidemic, as claimed.
(As to why they didn’t destroy all traces of their human experimentation programs, I don’t know… I have a theory but it’s a bit off topic.)

No please share it with the group.

Before you jump all over that question too, let me just say that I do not trust anybody’s version of events, neither the Allies nor the Nazis. From reading the posts here and at this stage of my research, it appears that all sides in the war had their own agendas and are therefore at best unreliable – not least the Allies tampering with (reconstructing) the evidence of a crime scene – and I certainly wouldn’t trust condemned Nazis to be telling the truth either.

The figure of six million Jews dead is confirmed by Eichmann's testimony at Nuremburg. Why would he lie?

I mentioned the International Committee of the Red Cross earlier because that’s an impartial organisation, which would have no motive to cover anything up and least of all for mass-murdering Nazis.

Yes, yes the did. In much the same way that catholics kept stum. The RC were concerned that if they raised these issues they would be blanket banned from all German camps including prisoner of war camps.

They were there at the camps and kept records too, many of which are (apparently) quoted all over the net. I have found many references to these reports,

Links please.

It is also highly unlikely (in my mind) that the ICRC would fail to notice a mass-extermination program involving millions of people, in a relatively confined space and over a 5 year period.

Again the "final solution" was started in the winter of 1943. Your basic lack of historical facts, contradicts your claim that you've studied this matter to any real depth.

And that they wouldn’t present this evidence at the Nuremberg trials, or at least mention it somewhere. I’ve read some claims tonight that the ICRC weren’t allowed to present evidence at the trials, and others that the ICRC themselves abstained. Again, I’m not going to jump in there without cross-referencing with reliable sources.

What is your definition of a reliable source?

Can you please point me to these records from the time the ICRC spent at the camps, and where I can find the mistakes you say the ICRC admitted to making, so that I can compare the two?

Did you not bother to read the link I gave? I did you the courtesy of providing references to my claims, something you don't seem to feel is necessary to do for me.

IrelandSpirit

watty wrote: »

But this is nonsense. There are lorry loads of documents. There was no extra cover up of the exterminations compared with human experiments.

Google "concentration camp" railway ticket "one-way"

Neither had a blow by blow account in the morning papers of course. Also they didn't destroy records. The fact is the extermination procedure mitigated against detailed records:

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/holocaust/reinhard/part02/


We even have the documentation of the railway fares. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_train


This information is extensively used in the book "The war against the Jews"


http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005445


There is overwhelming unambiguous evidence that the NAZIs used the camps to kill people. And while homosexuals, dissidents, Gypsies and mentally deficient were targets their plan was to kill every Jew.

(* relevant posts earlier)


The video is hotch potch of lies and mis-information.

Watty, this subject is not my forte but I agree with you all the way. In my opinion my colleague ignored the vast already well established evidence. Evidence that unambiguously proves and has proved for over 60 years that Hitler’s plan was to annihilate EVERYBODY who he deemed an enemy of the Third Reich. This evidence is real, it is on paper, on record in various mediums of communication, we have a multitude of eyewitness accounts and survivor testimonies, AND we have proof in the form of policy that was implemented across Germany and the occupied countries, with millions of unlawful detentions leading to the ghettos and finally the death camps. The Final Solution. It does not get any clearer than that.

If there is evidence to prove otherwise, then this Cole video is not it. On the contrary. It is evident from the start that this young man has set out to entrap and misrepresent his intended victim in the most unprofessional and morally wrong way. If people want to accept this approach as serious investigative journalism, as actual evidence………. I cannot see how…………. that’s entirely their prerogative and we can only hope that one day they will wake up to the fact that:

This is not how one goes about investigating in a fair and impartial manor.

This is not how one treats another human being with the respect due to him/her.

This is not how one treats a serious subject, on any level, and the so-called evidence does not stand up precisely for the reasons stated above.

Do not accept this video as evidence of anything other than an ode to vanity and conceit.

6th

Irelandspirit, I strongly suggest you and your collegue use seperate accounts to save confusion.

watty

/me bangs head on table in confusion.

Accounts are free But don't forget to log out.

IrelandSpirit

watty wrote: »

/me bangs head on table in confusion.

Accounts are free But don't forget to log out.

Watty, i humbly apologise for any confusion we might have caused. IrelandSprit is a project. Currently we are five. I will post a brief summery by way of explanation later

polishpaddy

King Mob wrote: »

In concentration camps. Where they herded people to be put into gas chambers and ovens.
You know: the Holocaust.

No

King Mob wrote: »

What the hell do you think we're talking about?

Do you believe people where brought to camps where they where killed en mass in the thousands for the purpose of exterminating groups which the Nazis deemed undesirable?
Yes or no?

What people ?Enemey soldiers? Civilians? Agitators? At a time of war i think you will have to elaborate on that statement above as people is to broad.

polishpaddy

Diogenes wrote: »

Are you just being willfully obtuse. You're not aware of the camps? The gassing, the shootings, the mass starvation.

If you're so convinced that Hitler never ordered the Holocaust, what do you think happened in the Warsaw Ghetto?

I'm well aware of camps thats a silly question. But what were these camps useds for? Labour? Murder? The shootings? You'll have to be more specific.

Diogenes

polishpaddy wrote: »

I'm well aware of camps thats a silly question. But what were these camps useds for? Labour? Murder? The shootings? You'll have to be more specific.

Murder. Do you deny that, say for example, Auschwitz Birkenau wasn't an extermination camp?

King Mob

polishpaddy wrote: »

No



What people ?Enemey soldiers? Civilians? Agitators? At a time of war i think you will have to elaborate on that statement above as people is to broad.

Are you being deliberately silly now?

We've explained the question at least five times now.

Do you believe the holocaust happened or not?

6th

Lads, some comments are getting dangerously close to being directered at posters and not posts.

polishpaddy

watty wrote: »

Of course there was. We don't have an actual signed order from Hitler but it's beyond any doubt whatsoever that it was his order.

No "we" don't have any such order from hitler.Thats Right.

watty wrote: »

And a huge mountain of evidence exists.


He was obsessed with eradication of Jews completely from the Earth. Have you read any Translation of Mien Kampf?

Or William Shirer's "Rise and fall of the Third Reich"?

Or "The War Against the Jews: 1933-1945"

Or about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristallnacht

Or Hitler's close friend http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Goebbels

Hitler said:
"Today I will once more be a prophet: If the international Jewish financiers in and outside Europe should succeed in plunging the nations once more into a world war, then the result will not be the Bolshevization of the earth, and thus the victory of Jewry, but the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe!"

Ausrottung - Annihilation translation to german. Now the word Ausrottung was never once used by hitler in his speeches or writting to mean murder.

Example:

'It is a good thing that you signed because otherwise it would have meant the ausrotten of the Czechoslovakian people'.'

What do you think he meant by this? When taken out of context and when you look back at where hitler used this word it has once never ment murder. So that quote is really just missunderstood and useless for what it's supposed to stand for.

watty wrote: »

Joseph Goebbels wrote:

"Regarding the Jewish Question, the Führer is determined to clear the table. He warned the Jews that if they were to cause another world war, it would lead to their own destruction. Those were not empty words. Now the world war has come. The destruction of the Jews must be its necessary consequence"

If i remember correctly he said that because hitler felt the jews caused ww1 which they did.But thats for another discussion.So when the jews declared war on germany in the 1930's they wanted the jews out of germany and all of europe.Obviously when at war you take this in context, just like you take churchills comments.

Winston Churchill wrote:
"'We shall turn Germany into a desert. There are means that will vanquish Hitler and that will be through, an absolute devastating war of extermination, using large bombers against the Nazi-Country'."

watty wrote: »

Reinhard Heydrich wrote
Enclosed I am sending you the minutes of the proceedings that took place on January 20, 1942.

Since the basic position regarding the practical execution of the final solution of the Jewish question has fortunately been established by now, and since there is a full agreement on the part of all agencies involved. I would like to ask you at the request of the Reich Marshal to make one of your specialist officials available for the necessary discussion of details in connection with the completion of the draft that shows the organizational, technical and material prerequisites bearing on the actual starting point of the projected solutions.


The fact that Hitler wanted and ordered Genocide (Complete Eradication of the Jews) is not in Doubt. The only Doubt is if the "Final Solution" was in his mind in the 1920s, or 1933 when his campaign against them started in earnest or if it was 1942 when the attempted Genocide may have started.
http://www.holocaust-history.org/hitler-final-solution/

Let me stop you right there. The fact is not that hitler wanted and ordered the Genocide of the jews. There is not such order as you yourself are aware of.

watty wrote: »

There is no doubt in my mind that a major influence in attacking Russia was to exterminate Russian Jewry.

Hence the announcement of the "Final Solution" after invasion of Russia
...
Hitler Personally Ordered The Final Solution

Most experts have agreed that an action on the magnitude of a mass genocide, with the resultant possible ramifications, could not have proceeded without Hitler's personal approval. Until now, no written decision from Hitler has been found, although there are compelling indications that a verbal decision was certainly given. The recent discoveries cannot be called a written decision (which, if it ever existed, was almost certainly destroyed by the end of the war), but they are certainly unequivocal confirmation that a clear decision was taken by Hitler. Even better, they help pinpoint the time it was taken.

Did the Jews of the world "declare war on Germany"?


Taken from "The Rothschild Money Trust", (George Armstrong, Omni Publications)

It is estimated that the Jews have absorbed four-fifth of the wealth of Germany, Austria, Poland and Czech-Slovakia, and more than one-half of that of England, France and Italy. They practically own the banks, railways, steel and munitions plants of these countries, to say nothing of the press and other minor industries.

They undoubtedly own one-half of the wealth of America. With one or two possible exceptions, they own the huge New York banks (which implies the control of the New York Federal Reserve Bank) the insurance companies, 80% of the metropolitan press, the news and advertising agencies, the cinema, and 80% of the radio broadcasting companies.

They are reputed to own 100% of the metropolitan newspapers of both England and France, and likewise 100% of the news and advertising agencies and the cinema of these two countries.

"Think of it. This alien race comprising less than 1% of the population owned 80% of the wealth of the country. The worst of it is that they stole it by the manipulation of the German currency system - in the same way that they have stolen the wealth of our country.

What was the final solution in your mind?

ihatewallies

Imrama wrote: »

most people actually forget that the allies never liberated the death camps as made popular in series like band of brothers

they were 'liberated' by the soviets and the west was not allowed to examine them until the late 80s

not to say people did not die in the concentration camps but the holocaust has also sadly become an industry that one cannot question in any way without having anti-semite thrown at you

this might be because the evidence of the nazi extermination plan for the jews and the fact that millions were exterminated in this program is so comprehensive and incontraversial that nobody of right mind would doubt it.

other than that perverse section of society who find it possible to swallow almost anything no matter how irrational.

there's a big industry that believes the moon landings were a hoax, 9/11 was by the CIA etc etc
some are absolutely convinced the world is really flat.

interestingly the holocaust deniers, still bereft of any genuine evidence that it was all a conspiracy seem to concentrate 90% of their argument on trying to prove that holocaust deniers are the victims of some wicked persecution which therefore obviously means there was no holocaust and it's AAAAALLLLLLL a lie.
God help us.
No it's because holocaust deniers are so obviously bonkers it's impossible to take their opinions seriously.
generally they seem to come from the stance that governments are evil and are secretly to blame for every crime in history.

each to his own

6th

ihatewallies, that looks very close to throwing insults at members of this forum. If you cant post without insults then dont post.

*Edit: polishpaddy, if you have a problem with a post then report it and dont respond to the comment.

King Mob

polishpaddy wrote: »

If i remember correctly he said that because hitler felt the jews caused ww1 which they did.But thats for another discussion.So when the jews declared war on germany in the 1930's they wanted the jews out of germany and all of europe.Obviously when at war you take this in context, just like you take churchills comments.

Are you for real? The Jews caused WW1?

polishpaddy wrote: »

Winston Churchill wrote:
"'We shall turn Germany into a desert. There are means that will vanquish Hitler and that will be through, an absolute devastating war of extermination, using large bombers against the Nazi-Country'."

I dare you to find a single order from Churchill to do this.

polishpaddy wrote: »

Let me stop you right there. The fact is not that hitler wanted and ordered the Genocide of the jews. There is not such order as you yourself are aware of.

So what does this mean?
Did the rest of the Nazi do the holocaust without Hitler knowing?

polishpaddy wrote: »

[/B]It is estimated that the Jews have absorbed four-fifth of the wealth of Germany, Austria, Poland and Czech-Slovakia, and more than one-half of that of England, France and Italy. They practically own the banks, railways, steel and munitions plants of these countries, to say nothing of the press and other minor industries.

They undoubtedly own one-half of the wealth of America. With one or two possible exceptions, they own the huge New York banks (which implies the control of the New York Federal Reserve Bank) the insurance companies, 80% of the metropolitan press, the news and advertising agencies, the cinema, and 80% of the radio broadcasting companies.

They are reputed to own 100% of the metropolitan newspapers of both England and France, and likewise 100% of the news and advertising agencies and the cinema of these two countries.

"Think of it. This alien race comprising less than 1% of the population owned 80% of the wealth of the country. The worst of it is that they stole it by the manipulation of the German currency system - in the same way that they have stolen the wealth of our country.

Classy stuff here PolishPaddy.
Did you know that 99% of all businesses in Ireland are owned by Roman Catholics?
It must be a conspiracy.

polishpaddy wrote: »

What was the final solution in your mind?

A questio you yourself have yet to actually answer.

polishpaddy

Diogenes wrote: »

Murder. Do you deny that, say for example, Auschwitz Birkenau wasn't an extermination camp?

No it wasn't an extermination camp. It was a camp to hold prisoners. Everyone knows they were deported to the camp, many died there of typhus and other diseases.Where are you getting your information that says it was a camp to Exterminate people?

humanji

polishpaddy wrote: »

No it wasn't an extermination camp. It was a camp to hold prisoners. Everyone knows they were deported to the camp, many died there of typhus and other diseases.Where are you getting your information that says it was a camp to Exterminate people?

I assume you'll never change your stance, so I was just wondering why do you think people are lying about it? What do you think they have gained?

King Mob

polishpaddy wrote: »

No it wasn't an extermination camp. It was a camp to hold prisoners. Everyone knows they were deported to the camp, many died there of typhus and other diseases.Where are you getting your information that says it was a camp to Exterminate people?

You have been seriously misinformed. You cannot be more wrong.

If it was just the hold prisoners why were the gas chambers?
How you explain the fact that 1.1 million people died in the camp?

Diogenes

polishpaddy wrote: »

No it wasn't an extermination camp. It was a camp to hold prisoners. Everyone knows they were deported to the camp, many died there of typhus and other diseases.Where are you getting your information that says it was a camp to Exterminate people?

Well for starts the trial of Adolf Eichmann

You're fond of quotes aren't you? Try this one.

"I will leap into my grave laughing because the feeling that I have five million human beings on my conscience is for me a source of extraordinary satisfaction."

Source Adolf Eichmann, engineer of death.


Then of course there is the 1943 Speech by Henrich Himmler

'I also want to refer here very frankly to a very difficult matter. We can now very openly talk about this among ourselves, and yet we will never discuss this publicly. Just as we did not hesitate on 30 June 1934, to perform our duty as ordered and put comrades who had failed up against the wall and execute them, we also never spoke about it, nor will we ever speak about it. (reference to the Night of the Long Knives) Let us thank God that we had within us enough self-evident fortitude never to discuss it among us, and we never talked about it. Every one of us was horrified, and yet every one clearly understood that we would do it next time, when the order is given and when it becomes necessary. I am now referring to the evacuation of the Jews, to the extermination of the Jewish people. This is something that is easily said: "The Jewish people will be exterminated", says every Party member, "this is very obvious, it is in our program — elimination of the Jews, extermination, a small matter."

Source


I asked about Auschwitz Birkenau, because it was specifically set up as a death camp. It was not a work camp in July 1942 it was decided that jews arriving at Auschwitz were divided into those who could work, in Labour camp, and those deemed unfit were immediately gassed.

By 1943 there were four crematoriums running, by the end of the war 1 million jews had been killed at Auschwtiz.

Auschwitz a new history


Now Polishpaddy. WHY DON'T YOU GIVE US YOUR PROOF THAT THE CAMPS WEREN'T EXTERMINATION CAMPS

polishpaddy

humanji wrote: »

I assume you'll never change your stance, so I was just wondering why do you think people are lying about it? What do you think they have gained?

You will have to be a bit more specific.Lying about what? The numbers that died or how they died? If thats what you mean then just look at the state of isreal.They've been living off the backs of germans now for decades.It's a massive industry.

polishpaddy

King Mob wrote: »

Are you for real? The Jews caused WW1?

Not in this discussion i won't.

King Mob wrote: »

I dare you to find a single order from Churchill to do this.

So since you can't find one for hitler you want me to find one for churchill.What order exactly are you looking for?

King Mob wrote: »

So what does this mean?
Did the rest of the Nazi do the holocaust without Hitler knowing?

What do you mean do the 'holocaust' ?

King Mob wrote: »

Classy stuff here PolishPaddy.
Did you know that 99% of all businesses in Ireland are owned by Roman Catholics?
It must be a conspiracy.

Is that a fact? Are they irish people or some ethnic group? Please show me.

A questio you yourself have yet to actually answer.[/quote]

King Mob

polishpaddy wrote: »

Not in this discussion i won't.

That's a shame cause i bet it's backed up with credible sources and isn't racist propaganda at all.

polishpaddy wrote: »

So since you can't find one for hitler you want me to find one for churchill.What order exactly are you looking for?

The same type of thing you're looking for.

polishpaddy wrote: »

What do you mean do the 'holocaust' ?

What do you think I mean.
The goddamn holocaust. Look it up for god's sake.

polishpaddy wrote: »

Is that a fact? Are they irish people or some ethnic group? Please show me.

Are you going to back up your "facts"?

Are you going to say that most businesses in Ireland aren't run by Catholics?

And if they are does that mean it's a conspiracy.

watty

Actually the Soviets did most of the "Winning the War" in Europe.

Why did the Russians execute 8,000 Polish Soldiers during WWII?

What did Polish people do to Oppose the moving of Polish Jews to the Warsaw Ghetto?

What did the Polish people do about the destruction of Polish Jewry?

Churchill and others of allies committed terrible War Crimes (Dresden comes to mind). No-one prosecutes the victors.

Hitler's and Goebel's hatred and desire to destroy all Jews is not in historical Doubt. The "Final Solution" was the planned mass transportation via rail to the Death Camps. It was a complete plan designed to eradicate 11Million people simply because of their Jewish Ethnic or Religious background.

No-one, neither Hitler nor Churchill is on trial. The OP was about a video, which is a deliberate distortion by Holocaust Deniers.

Most occupied countries collaborated with the NAZIs to kill the Jews.

The NAZIs started compiling lists in countries outside Germany before WWII!
http://www.amscan.org/benkow.html
However about 1/2 the Norwegian Jews escaped. Over 500 (nearly 1/2 the Jewish population) went to the death camps.

Denmark was the really the only country with no significant Anti-Jewish Collaboration. They managed to to save over 8,000 to Sweden. http://www.holocaustresearchproject.net/nazioccupation/danishjews.html

In January 1942 it was reported in the American press that the King of Denmark had threatened to abdicate if the German demand for Nuremberg legislation was pressed.

As a consequence, Rademacher the SS watch-dog over the Diplomatic Corps, advised Cecil von Renthe- Fink, the Reich plenipotentiary in Copenhagen, “to find occasions to point out that it would be prudent for Denmark to prepare in good time for the Final Solution.”

During the years between 1938 and 1941 the Germans through a mixture of diplomacy, and military conquest, dominated most of continental Europe.

Following the Sudetenland becoming part of the Reich in September1938, with the Munich Agreement the Germans marched into Prague on 15 March 1939, Hitler declares that “Czechoslovakia has ceased to exist”.

On 1 September 1939 the Germans invaded Poland and after ignoring an ultimatum to withdraw his troops, Britain, France, Australia, New Zealand declare war on Germany.

The Jews did not start WWI or WWII. WWI was related to the final collapse of the Ottoman (Nominally Muslim) and Austrohungarian (Nominally Christian) empires. WWII may in some subconscious sense have been Hitler's obsession the Jews (1933 - 1945) but in a practical sense started with the Spanish Civil War and Italy's Aggression (Facists) backed by Germany. For mainland Europeans the War started perhaps in 1938.

The German authorities created the Warsaw ghetto in October 1940. All the Jews in the city were ordered to transfer to the Jewish quarter assigned to them by 1 November 1940, while all the Aryans were ordered to remove elsewhere out of this quarter.

The Jews were allowed to take only personal articles with them, and were forbidden to take their furniture, though in practice this rule was not strictly observed. All the Jewish shops and businesses in the Aryan areas of the city were closed down and sealed.

This was a prelude to the "Final Solution".

Hitler would not have regarded the "Final Solution" as murder, but in much the same way as we would plan a way to rid a town of Rats.

After the outbreak of war between Germany and the Soviet Union and the German occupation of the Eastern areas of Poland, in July 1941, news began to arrive of mass machine-gunning of Jews in the more easterly towns and local centres.

At first the stories were hardly to be believed, but they were confirmed again and again by eyewitnesses. In the winter and early spring of 1942 these mass murders of tens of thousands of Jews grew more and more systematic.

Throughout the whole of the Vilno province only one centre of Jewish life was left in the city of Vilno itself, where some 12,000 Jews remained. In the city of Vilno over 50,000 Jews were murdered, in Rowne 14,000 in Lwow 50 percent of the Jewish population, and in Kowel 10,000.

Later similar reports were received from Stanislawow, Tarnopol, Stiryj and dozens of other smaller towns. It became obvious that the terror was moving westward from the eastern borders, while in the extreme west, in Poland’s “incorporated” western provinces, Jews had already been completely eliminated, only specialist craftsmen working for the German army being left, herded in isolated barracks.

New methods of extermination were being applied. The use of poison gas was resorted to for ten thousand people in Chelm. A camp was organised at Belzec for the special purpose of execution by electrocution and here in the course of about a month, in March and April 1942 80,000 Jews from the Lublin, Lwow and part of the Kielce provinces were executed.

Out of Lublin’s 30,000 Jews only 2,500 were left, 70 of these being women. Auxiliary to the main work of extermination the Jews were being deported from the smaller centres of population and concentrated in the larger towns. In the course of these operations alone some 10 percent, lost their lives.

The "Final Solution" was the idea of a complete and systematic efficient way to exterminate all 11Million Jews, instead of the ad hoc killing. Since at least 1933 this had been one of Hitler's goals. The administrative planning for the Final Solution was finalized January 1942 to at the Wannsee Conference. But the concept was Hitler's and pre-dates 1933 at least.

The "Final Solution" was more so Hitler's policy than Churchill's bombing German Cities (which Churchill ordered, and was a war Crime).


I can't argue on nuances of German Translation as my German is very bad and all the reading I have done (not just Wikipedia), is over a 40 year period in real books, in English.

1) The first is a diary entry by Joseph Goebbels of December 12, 1941. It runs as follows:

Bezüglich der Judenfrage ist der Führer entschlossen, reinen Tisch zu machen. Er hat den Juden prophezeit, daß, wenn sie noch einmal einen Weltkrieg herbeiführen würden, sie dabei ihre Vernichtung erleben würden. Das ist keine Phrase gewesen. Der Weltkrieg ist da, die Vernichtung des Judentums muß die notwendige Folge sein.

With respect of the Jewish Question, the Führer has decided to make a clean sweep. He prophesied to the Jews that if they again brought about a world war, they would live to see their annihilation in it. That wasn't just a catch-word. The world war is here, and the annihilation of the Jews must be the necessary consequence. [7]

2) The second is a note in his own handwriting by Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler in his soon to be published diary of a meeting he had with Hitler at the latter's Headquarters (Wolfsschanze) on December 18, 1941. The notes are simply: [8]

Judenfrage / als Partisanen auszurotten

Jewish Question / to be exterminated like the partisans

Translated by BableFish

1) Concerning the Jew question is the leader decided to make pure table. He prophesied the Jews that, if they would cause again a world war they would experience thereby their destruction. That was no cliche. The world war is there, the destruction of the Judentums must the necessary result be.
2)
To exterminate Jew question/as partisans

But I think without doubt based on my reading, Hitler was the moving force of the "Final Solution". The details of the plan (which is real and achieved more than 50% of its goals) he of course left to others. There is in my mind less doubt about this than who ordered Hiroshima, Nagaski or Dresden.

http://www.holocaust-history.org/hitler-final-solution/

Many evil things in History we know who clearly ordered them, yet we don't have the signed Chit.

It seems to me that Anti-Semitism is at the heart of denying these facts. Or is anyone suggesting that Hilter wasn't a strong leader in charge and that he was a Good Man that had the "wool pulled over his eyes" by Himmler, Geobels, Eichmann, Heydrich and such?

watty

Actually I'd guess less than 80% of buisnesses in Ireland are run by Irish Catholics (in ethnic + religious sense, i.e. at least baptised and confirmed). I'm sure we have about 10% Irish Protestants/Anglicans in Population. (Before all those Poles, Chinese and Africans came).


But that's a quibble. paper on it here 2006
http://arrow.dit.ie/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1000&context=imerep

In the context of Irish/ English/NI bigotry and "Racism" this is hilarious http://hiberniagirl.blogspot.com/2008/03/ireland-and-un-declaration-on-rights-of.html

King Mob

watty wrote: »

Actually I'd guess less than 80% of buisnesses in Ireland are run by Irish Catholics (in ethnic + religious sense, i.e. at least baptised and confirmed). I'm sure we have about 10% Irish Protestants/Anglicans in Population. (Before all those Poles, Chinese and Africans came).


But that's a quibble. paper on it here 2006
http://arrow.dit.ie/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1000&context=imerep

I didn't have any exact numbers and was making a sorta educated guess.

Most Irish business are owned by Roman Catholics or descendants of Roman Catholics.
I'd imagine this stands for Irish politicians as well.

ihatewallies

just a brief word.

it is completely futile arguing with holocaust denyers on a message board.

better to ignore them.

they feed off the attention

indeed if you resurrected Hitler, Eichmann, Goebbels etc and got them to personally testify that they did in fact completely knowingly plan and supervise the death camps, the same denyers would argue that Hitler etc had been brainwashed with drugs.

if you had film of the process - of 'transports' arriving with prisoners being segregated etc and sent to the 'showers', of the gas capsules being dropped through the roof, the denyers would tell you the film was made by the Israeli gov using actors.

if you had a time machine and took them back there they'd still wriggle out, you'd be told they'd been hypnotised to have hallucinations.

you see, it's not about the evidence or the facts for the denyers.
It's about the fact that they 'KNOW' that it's a a lie by evil zionists or the CIA under the control .....bla bla bla

Ddad

polishpaddy wrote: »

No it wasn't an extermination camp. It was a camp to hold prisoners. Everyone knows they were deported to the camp, many died there of typhus and other diseases.Where are you getting your information that says it was a camp to Exterminate people?

And here I was working on the assumption that Hitler was a raving madman that oversaw the greatest campaign of mass murder in history. Glad I'm set straight, it was a prison camp.

It's amazing how they 'lost' so many 'prisoners', feckin careless if you ask me. I suppose he was too busy with Stalingrad to take any notice.

Twas a shame about those babies that fell into large bonfires and the summary executions. Shoddily run operation if you ask me.