Electricians' strike 'a major success' - TEEU

the bolt

Spudmonkey wrote: »

Because I wouldn't have liked the job. Its not all about the money, if you start chasing money, you end up in something you don't like.

fair enough but dont begruge the sparks whats due to them.

Andy18

First of all i suggest people read the full facts about this strike because as i state again its not just about pay there's plenty more conditions of the agreement employers want to be abolished if your close to the trade you should know this. this is about employers having total disregard for their employees and their unions they will tear up agreements if they're allowed proceed and if your close to the trade your agreement will also be boycotted by your employers if we fail in our action this will be a win for all employees in the constuction sector if we are successful as it shows employers they cant just disregard long standing agreements within the industry i agree that we all have to give and take to get through this hard time but letting employers abolosh agreements and cut out our unions will leave us helpless. this should have been resolved by negotiations between unions and employers a long time ago but the employers decided to use the recession to their advantage to screw us. they thought we'd never go on strike and they'd get their way. we have recieved massive support over the last two days from the other trades at pickets and SIPTU backed us and now ICTU backed us at half 7 this evening, as a result the employers are now ready to talk, hopefully an agreement is reached tomorrow that is fair to both sides and the electricians will be there to back the other trades if your agreements are breached.

Mario007

firstly i would like to say there really shouldnt be an agreement like the one reached between employers and unions in this case where a pay rise or pay decrease is agreed up on and signed. the pay conditions should be flexed with regards to the market condition, because thats the fairest way forward.
secondly this strike will determine the importance of unions in ireland, if they loose it, thats probably the beginning of an end of greedy union power, so I do hope they will loose it.
thirdly ask any of the 400 000 people on the dole, many of which are also qualified and out of college, to sing up for a job with €21 an hour and with a decrease of 10% in that rate and they would think you their savior.
true the agreement was reached and legally the electricians are entitled to an 11% increase, but right now people everywhere are suffering, even politicians are decreasing their pay, so calling a strike for a pay increase is quite ludicrous and ridiculous.

Conar

Andy18 wrote: »

First of all i suggest people read the full facts about this strike because as i state again its not just about pay there's plenty more conditions of the agreement employers want to be abolished if your close to the trade you should know this.

That may well be so but why is it that all the union representatives seem to talk about on the radio is the money then.
If its really about other things then they should drop the pay increases and try to get their other conditions agreed. I for one would have a lot more sympathy for people striking over withheld pensions than fools chasing money that doesn't exist.

Andy18 wrote: »

this is about employers having total disregard for their employees

The funny thing is, most people (that I have spoken to) think that this is about unions flexing their muscles and living in the clouds.
Its about time that unions stepped back and had a reality check IMO.

I also think all these pay deals should be scrapped. I'm open to debate on the point but I feel that wages should be market driven. If people are willing to work for a given wage then the wage is likely fair, if not then the employer needs to up wages to get the staff they need.

I've never worked in a company that pay everyone the same rate and I'd really hate it. Socialism doesn't work and people that work twice as hard as the guy next to them deserve to negotiate a better rate. Its held me in good stead so far.

Mario007

Conar wrote: »

I also think all these pay deals should be scrapped. I'm open to debate on the point but I feel that wages should be market driven. If people are willing to work for a given wage then the wage is likely fair, if not then the employer needs to up wages to get the staff they need.

I've never worked in a company that pay everyone the same rate and I'd really hate it. Socialism doesn't work and people that work twice as hard as the guy next to them deserve to negotiate a better rate. Its held me in good stead so far.

exactly, but for that we need our own Thatcher to kick out these radical lefties ideologies and along with them the supreme power of the unions!

Andy18

read up on how the increase is calculated its not just a set ammount it is calculated by taking wages from across the sector and we get the average of those wages.

I understand people are desperate for jobs and would take the cut but if we had no agreement people would be doing this and we would all be undercutting each other while the employers are sucking up the profits how does that help us?

And this recession isint the be all and end all when things turn around and employment rises again our trade will have been ruined if our agreements are gone.

Conar

Slightly off topic but a quick question regarding this 21% decrease thats thrown around.
Is it gotten by adding the proposed 10% decrease to the forgotten 11% increase?

If so its wrong. a drop from 111% to 90% is an 18.9% decrease in pay.
Maybe I'm wrong about where the 21% comes from but if not then its a fine example of the unions bolstering figures to exaggerate their claims.

Can anyone clarify?

Andy18

we've adressed this issue of looking like "money grabbers" with our union, This is about upholding agreements that the industry have been built on for years the agreements also work in favour of the employers dont forget they've been making 11% exra on every man because the charge out based on our agreements. they'll never be completly abolished but the employers would just write a new one completly in their favour if we didn't use industrial action. people that work hard in my profession become chargehands and foreman and do get on higher rates.

irish_bob

the bolt wrote: »

why didnt you train as a sparky then?

i know this post wasnt aimed at me but i just had to butt in

electricians were ten a penny during the boom ( every 2nd young fella who left school in my area became one ) and they are ten a penny on the dole now , supply is vastly exceeding demand , one would think sparkys were soldiers circa 1939 , sorry , most of you are not needed now

Conar

Andy18 wrote: »

I understand people are desperate for jobs and would take the cut but if we had no agreement people would be doing this and we would all be undercutting each other while the employers are sucking up the profits how does that help us?

I don't agree with this at all.
Its this mentality that made us uncompetative and overpriced.

If a building firms staffing costs are lower then the person/company requiring the building work demands a lower price and the employers don't suck off any extra profits, value returns.

Peoples wage increases have only lead to higher prices on the high streets and the housing market because we had more to spend. The higher high street prices forced up the minimum wage requirements continueing the spiralling uncompetative costs of Ireland Inc.
I'm no economist but I think this is the wrong way to run a country.

Andy18

with the taxes rising and the wages dropping how will people be able to afford to live cutting peoples wages and rising taxes is not the answer to our problems.

Mario007

Conar wrote: »

I don't agree with this at all.
Its this mentality that made us uncompetative and overpriced.

If a building firms staffing costs are lower then the person/company requiring the building work demands a lower price and the employers don't suck off any extra profits, value returns.

Peoples wage increases have only lead to higher prices on the high streets and the housing market because we had more to spend. The higher high street prices forced up the minimum wage requirements continueing the spiralling uncompetative costs of Ireland Inc.
I'm no economist but I think this is the wrong way to run a country.

yes, basically we created our own inflation and from that came higher minimum wage, wage increases in other sector and from that came more inflation and we were caught in a circle and paying for it right now.
but this is the kind of thinking thats, unfortunately, still around. here on boards there was a thread recently about employees seeking higher wages so that they can pay the higher taxes and thus wouldnt have to cut back on their luxury, for example

ixoy

Andy18 wrote: »

with the taxes rising and the wages dropping how will people be able to afford to live cutting peoples wages and rising taxes is not the answer to our problems.

Not entirely no - but you're aware of how inflation works, yeah? Let's say you get your increase. Then some other group thinks "Well what about us? I want some of that. Let's show those fat cats!" and also make demands. Some can be met, some can't - the problem is by demanding a unilateral rate, you'll find other places won't be willing to pay for it and won't employ you. Others will raise their prices to compensate and thus in turn be even less competitive than they are. It's a large part of why there's 400k on the dole and we don't need to make it worse.

With respect to this "being due", the merits of that were based on previous economic conditions. Market factors need to dictate affordability of wages otherwise we price ourselves out. All these agreements should be conditional (as I believe the national wage agreement is) with relevant clauses. Maybe the Landsdown Road site can afford the pay, but there's many others who will not and you're just shooting yourself in the foot, and others, further down the line.

Conar

Andy18 wrote: »

with the taxes rising and the wages dropping how will people be able to afford to live cutting peoples wages and rising taxes is not the answer to our problems.

1. Prices in the shops are dropping
2. Interest rates are lower, that helps.
3. We were overpriced and the only way to resolve that is by taking a hit. Burying our heads in the sand won't fix anything.

I'm willing to pay a lot more tax, unfortunately I just don't trust our current government to spend it wisely. Lets be honest here too, I don't think anyone earning over 10 euro an hour is going to starve. Maybe the government will have to help some people with their mortgages but thats a different story.
People need to move away from 3 year interest free credit deals on couches and credit card holidays and get some reality back in their lives.

schumacher

The electricians shouldnt be allowed to hold the country to ransom like this putting other jobs at risk. Not many people are going to have sympathy for them striking in such a difficult economic climate. If the government/labour realtions give in to these they will be giving in to all groups that come before the labour relations seeking a wage increase. Most people are taking wage cuts not increases ffs.

Spudmonkey

Andy18 wrote: »

I understand people are desperate for jobs and would take the cut but if we had no agreement people would be doing this and we would all be undercutting each other while the employers are sucking up the profits how does that help us?

And this recession isint the be all and end all when things turn around and employment rises again our trade will have been ruined if our agreements are gone.

Where are all these profits you are talking about? Are you getting more work than last year? Cause I hear some are struggling to get any work at all. You need work to make profit.

When is this recession going to turn around? Because when the same thing happened in Sweden in the early 90's, it took some 16 years to get out of it. Many say ours is far worse than theirs.

Andy18 wrote: »

with the taxes rising and the wages dropping how will people be able to afford to live cutting peoples wages and rising taxes is not the answer to our problems.

Its actually the only option we have at the moment, so yes it is.

oldboy

The TEEU has claimed massive support from other unions including Siptu and Unite and also called for Congress to back a nationwide strike in solidarity.

They are seeking a €2.49-an-hour pay rise on standard wages of €21.49 an hour.

Read more: http://breakingnews.ie/ireland/electricians-vow-to-keep-up-strike-action-417812.html#ixzz0Kc2u0ySg&C


GET BENT, you've no support from me, none of you sparkys do

Picking the middle of a recession to fight your battles because you think you'll have the employers over your knee is a scummy tactic, and its about time the power hungry money grabbing unions got what they deserve

barefeet

Very intelligent contribution. If electrical contractors are allowed break agreements what's to stop other contractors following suit. Remember this began in 2007 work was plentiful then. From what I can gather, electricians aren't looking for more. Contractors want them to take a pay cut not a pay freeze when they haven't even got what was due to them in the first place. When times were good how many contractors passed on their good fortune, employees still just got their regular wages.

Fluffybums

The sparkys are owed the pay rise. I'm sure the some of contractors did include the higher rate in their tenders during the last three years and pocketed the difference.
They should get the pay rise.

BUT...... the money has been blown, it is gone, too much of the economy was built on a pile of sand and it blew away. So take your pay rise with my blessing, you are due it under the agreement.

BUT don't come back on here complaining because the contractor you work for has gone bust, the smaller guys will because they can't borrow money from the banks to cover them in the short term (read the papers rather than take my word for it). The bigger guys will survive but are there enough of them to employ everyone that is currently employed?

And as for this recession being over in the 18 to 24 months, when you can get an experience graduate for less than a newly qualified electrician in the UK (check out New Scientist Jobs), why the hell would anyone want to site their business in Ireland? Never mind the cost of employing people and doing business in the near and far east (these are, in reality, our competitors).


Enjoy your pay rise, you are owed it - there is little doubt about it.

Conar

barefeet wrote: »

When times were good how many contractors passed on their good fortune, employees still just got their regular wages.

I reckon we all had it too good for the last few years.
I'm sick of hearing all these sob stories about how the banks and developers creamed it for the last few years, as if the rest of us were akin to the slaves that built the pyramids.

How many people in Ireland were going on multiple holidays per year, upgrading to LCD/Plasmas, moving to a bigger house, the list goes on.

We all had it better than we deserved and its caught up on us, end of story.
Now those of us lucky enough to still have jobs have to accept some extra pain, there's no other way around it.

I just hope that the government grows some balls and tackles this recession before it gets too late.

eamonnm79

The people who are saying the sparkys should just bend over, are only contributing to the increasing democratic deficit in our society. The labour movement has done so so much for workers. 5 day weeks, health and safety paid holidays etc. etc.
And yet over the past 30 years, outside craft workers and the public sector, there has been slow but consistant reversal of the realisation that it was only by organising that people got these rights.

The mainly right wing media along with no small matter of petty jealousy ( people who felt like they had no option but to give in to the higher taxes, massive bank bailouts and mass redundancy are jealous of a group of people who feel they have a right to stand up for themselves, because it makes them feel weak)
Unless there is financial gain for you as an individual to lower other people's wages it makes no sense for workers to try to weaken the rights of people who actually havent forgotten they still have rights.

It is no coincidence that unionised workers in any industry make more money than non unionised workers.
Unless you are a fat cat it is just plain stupid to try to prevent these guys from trying to achieve the best pay and conditions as possible for themselves.

Conar

eamonnm79 wrote: »

And yet over the past 30 years, outside craft workers and the public sector, there has been slow but consistant reversal of the realisation that it was only by organising that people got these rights.

Thats because they had their day and we now have strong employment laws to protect our workers. Theres a big difference between the old sweatshops and modern corporations.

eamonnm79 wrote: »

Unless there is financial gain for you as an individual to lower other people's wages it makes no sense for workers to try to weaken the rights of people who actually havent forgotten they still have rights.

What about the jobs that are put at risk by the strikes?
Why should we have to agree with people fighting for rights we don't agree they should have? This is typical of a union attitude IMO, always think they know best and imply that anyone that doesn't stand with them is some kind of traitor. Stinks of the same tactics the American government uses on those opposed to going to war.

eamonnm79 wrote: »

It is no coincidence that unionised workers in any industry make more money than non unionised workers.

That doesn't justify their actions, just proves blackmailing is profitable.

eamonnm79 wrote: »

Unless you are a fat cat it is just plain stupid to try to prevent these guys from trying to achieve the best pay and conditions as possible for themselves.

How is it stupid for anyone to not want the country to become even more uncompetative than it is now?

mikemac

If I was a union member I'd be wondering why my union didn't raise this issue and escalate it in 2007?

The union may well have succeeded in 2007 but now who can say?

What exactly was happening for the last two years? Procrastination?
Maybe they have a good case for an agreed pay rise but they should have demanded it in 2007, not now

If the Labour Court can organize a meeting for tomorrow morning, don't tell me this was tied up in the courts since 2007.

alphamale 1

Conar,

I have to agree with you on many topics. We have had it way too good for the last 10 yeras and unfortunately some people were too far removed from reality. I anticipate that further pain is on the way post Lisbon 2 AND IN the next budget and in the bord snip report.

I reckon we all will have to take a 10 % pay cut (INCLUDING ELECTRICIANS) and all public servants and cuts in social welfare as these are the only way we are going to be fill the 20 bn hole in the punlic finances

mikemac

alphamale 1 wrote: »

I reckon we all will have to take a 10 % pay cut (INCLUDING ELECTRICIANS) and all public servants and cuts in social welfare as these are the only way we are going to be fill the 20 bn hole in the punlic finances

10% cut?
Some of us already have, please don't ask for more

alphamale 1

I am not asking for more but i feel that we are probably taxed out of it as far as we can go so i'd say that the next budget is going to be cruel. I hope i'm wrong but i fear for the worst

novarock

I have to say im against the electricians on this one. every single profession should have a base rate of minumum wage, and increases should equal your experience/expertise. I work in IT, wages range from minimum wage up to the hundreds of thousands obviously, but if someone is bad at IT, I would expect them to be paid minimum wage, if they deserve the higher wages, give it to them.

The "We went to college to get a trade so we deserve 23 euro an hour" thing is a load of ****e. Thousands of people go to college, work hard for their degrees. (and im not afraid to say this, a degree in engineering is a lot harder to get than to become an electrician) If every industry could use these bully tactics te same as the electricians, the country would grind to a halt very quickly. Its pure selfish.

We have all taken our paycuts, get with the times lads. The boom is over.

Conar

alphamale 1 wrote: »

I reckon we all will have to take a 10 % pay cut (INCLUDING ELECTRICIANS) and all public servants and cuts in social welfare as these are the only way we are going to be fill the 20 bn hole in the punlic finances

Yep, I agree totally!
Just for the craic I used a tax calculator (www.taxcalc.eu) to work out how much tax a married couple earning 35k each per year each actually pay.

Yearly take home pay. (Married)
Selected Tax year is 2009 #2: 'Emergency' Apr-09
Gross Take Home Pay = € 70000.00
Tax = € 8080.00
Take Home Pay after Tax = € 61920.00
Less PRSI = € 2535.84
Less Spouse PRSI = € 2535.84
Net take home pay = € 56848.32

Thats assuming no extra's like BIK etc, but its just over 13k between PRSI and PAYE. That equates to an overall tax rate of less than 19% on the gross salaries. I honestly think there much more room for increased taxes.

darcy.jonny

firstly ild like to say here ........ the whole taking a 21 percent cut is just plain and utter nonscence its a 10 percent cut at best the other 11 is a pay rise you didnt get you cant lose or be cut something you dont have so stop trying to make things sound better for you by saying its a 21 percent cut .

secondly ........ this strike will lead to further job cuts ... and if it is you that lose your jobs ur going to wish u kept the mouths closed and got on with your work .

thirdly ..... our countrys ecomomy is dying ..... the banks , the government , the global crisis have caused it ......... but also by no small part ireland inability to be competitive is a major factor . what brought on the celtic tiger years and gave us prosperity is lonf gone from this nation , and internationally this strike could be catastroipic ..... nobody would dare invest in a small island (which in the grand scale of things is unimportant to the global market ) that has an over paid work force compared to the eu average and now in a global recession has workers striking for more money, while everyone else is taking cuts across europe the states etc. if this leads to other professions going on strike we could set this country into a situation that could take 15 years to get out off. thats going by other problrms in other countrys . this will lead to mass imigration like before and losing our skilled work force (deturmental to a country that relys almost solely on high skilled workers )

lastly ive been asked if i would take a 21 percent pay cut as a plumber .

i ran my own company for aprox 7 years and had an average staff of 4-6 lads , like most small construction businesses .
when times were good often times i didnt get much of a wage some weeks but the bills were paid so the was never a reason to complain .

after last summer the work dried up and i couldnt get credit from my bank which i had a great relationship with and never had an issue with bad payments etc. this resulted in me letting go 4 full time good plumbers .

before christmas facing the fact i couldnt afford to advertise in the golden pages any more i had no work coming in . and due to the fact i was self employed i couldnt get a cent from the dole . i hadnt a penny to support my partner and kids we were trying to live of her part time job ..... which didnt last long . i had to mive back into my parents house and her and the kids to her mothers . luckly i was able to rent the house and covered most of the morgage and still is .

after weeks and months of trying to get a job anywhere i got a job working on commision which averages 300 euro for a 40 - 50 hours week going door to door which is stressful and a lot harder than what i was doing , also managed to get two nights work delivering pizzas which for the two night i might make 70 to 90 euro if im lucky for two six hour shifts .so in total im working 52 - 62 hours a week for at best 370-390 and trush me it can be a far lot less some weeks . the hours im working the lack of money etc has put a huge strain on my relationship and my kids living in undesireable conditions . i havnt so much as seen the inside of a pub in 6-7 months let alone buy clothes for my self of partner although things are starting to improve for me as in getting back on track with loans etc,

but all of thatg being said i consider myself to be lucky to have an income coming in ..... 400 thousand is a large number for such a small country and it going to get worse and thats not counting the endless amount of people like me self employed that cant get assistance .

so 20 percent cut ....... ild gladly have taken a 50 percent cut with open arms ild have been on around the same money as now but i can tell you ild be working less hours than i am now and would be now where near as hard.

what ive said here is the complete truth , believe me or not it dosnt matter really , but what does is for electricans to take a long hard look at themselves and try and imagine where they will be with taking 100 percent cut as to 10 or 20 . it will happen most of these companies profits have fallen hugely due to rising tax , insurance , job pricing down and less work . so strike away lead the way for others and destroy whats left of our ecnomy i dont care ill still have work ........ hopefully and im being serious after all this is over you will still have work to (a long wait to get jobseekers at the moment )

eamonnm79

Conar wrote: »

Thats because they had their day and we now have strong employment laws to protect our workers. Theres a big difference between the old sweatshops and modern corporations.


That doesn't justify their actions, just proves blackmailing is profitable.

All the favourable employment laws that we now have were hard won. Some were hard won in central europe and then we got the benifit due to being part of the EU but they were hard won by the people in central europe. Others were won here and in the UK.
Considering many sweatshops are in operation to provide cheap materials for modern corporations that makes no sense.

So you are saying that a presons right to associate collectively and withdraw their labour should be made illegal as it is the sam thing as blackmail?

Your energy would be much better spent trying to stop the government introducing Nama in its current form which will cost the tax payer 30-50 billion plus interest

Every other economic issue in this country is tiny in comparison.
Socialism for the developers, banks, shreholders and bond holders who all gambled and lost, generational poverty for most of the rest of us. You people are taking your eyes off the ball in play much to the delight of the government.