Electricians' strike 'a major success' - TEEU

jimmycrackcorm

eamonnm79 wrote: »

All the favourable employment laws that we now have were hard won. Some were hard won in central europe and then we got the benifit due to being part of the EU but they were hard won by the people in central europe. Others were won here and in the UK.
Considering many sweatshops are in operation to provide cheap materials for modern corporations that makes no sense.

So you are saying that a presons right to associate collectively and withdraw their labour should be made illegal as it is the sam thing as blackmail?

Your energy would be much better spent trying to stop the government introducing Nama in its current form which will cost the tax payer 30-50 billion plus interest

Every other economic issue in this country is tiny in comparison.
Socialism for the developers, banks, shreholders and bond holders who all gambled and lost, generational poverty for most of the rest of us. You people are taking your eyes off the ball in play much to the delight of the government.

Your post is completely devoid of any sense of reality. Reality means the during the boom we became uncompetitive and electricians amongst others are part of this. This has to change otherwise our economy will go completely down the drain a lot quicker than it currently is.

If you are going to suggest putting effort into stopping NAMA then perhaps you might come up with an alternative apart from ignoring economic reality.

Conar

eamonnm79 wrote: »

All the favourable employment laws that we now have were hard won. Some were hard won in central europe and then we got the benifit due to being part of the EU but they were hard won by the people in central europe. Others were won here and in the UK.
Considering many sweatshops are in operation to provide cheap materials for modern corporations that makes no sense.

That being true does not give unions carte blanche to do as they please forever more.

eamonnm79 wrote: »

So you are saying that a presons right to associate collectively and withdraw their labour should be made illegal as it is the sam thing as blackmail?

No I don't and never said that. I do feel that unions powers should be limitted certain areas though but I'm not sure how it could work. Let the markets decide salaries. You talk about money hungry fat cats, but in reality money seems to be unions main goal these days.....getting more and more money for their representatives. Throwing around statements on the radio stating that people are trying to drive electricians back to minimum wage is just plain stupid and wrong. Workers that needed such protection in the past were on the bread line, not struggling to keep up payments on their Pajero's.

eamonnm79 wrote: »

Your energy would be much better spent trying to stop the government introducing Nama in its current form which will cost the tax payer 30-50 billion plus interest

Thats neither here nor there. I'm hardly going to close down all opinions I have on matters because there is something somewhere else that deserves my full attention. Besides, I tried for years to stop those numpties in government by voting for other parties. I have never voted for Fiann Fail and have rarely if ever agreed with their policies. A lot of people in this country need to take some responsibility for continuously voting them back in to ruin our country further, gladly I'm not one of them

eamonnm79 wrote: »

Every other economic issue in this country is tiny in comparison.
Socialism for the developers, banks, shreholders and bond holders who all gambled and lost, generational poverty for most of the rest of us. You people are taking your eyes off the ball in play much to the delight of the government.

I think thats complete bull to be honest. We need to look at every area of our economy and workforce and do everything we can to come out of recession. Its time to stop blaming all the fat cats, governments and bankers and actually try to resolve the issue.
I'm not saying I have the answers but I have one for certain.
1. Don't pay the electricians any pay increases for the forseeable future

@darcy.jonny - Fair play man, I hope I handle things as well as you seem to have should the situation ever arise.

future_plans

I think we have to accept that the sparkies have been shafted by the contractors and ultimately the developers here. They had an agreement and are due an increase based on this agreement. The contractors budgeted for these increases and never passed on the rewards. The problem now is that the money has dried up and the sparkies are left dangling. I think they are entitled to be upset.

I myself am lucky to be still working. I am not in the construction sector, I work off an average wage and have not had any pay increase since 2006/2007. Luckily, the decreases in costs of living in the last 6 months have been like a nice pay increase and I hope the costs continue to come down.

However, I don't think I am entitled to be bitter that the sparkies had this agreement and now they are looking for their dues. I think it's an easy stone to cast to just say "be lucky you have a job" and all that. I think the real culprits here are the contractors (who lets face it, cleaned up in the boom) renaged on a deal with their workers.

But that is also a side issue now. I do not think the contractors can now afford to pay this 11% - even if they budgeted for it 2 years ago, that money is long gone. So where is the middle ground? The TEEU calling for a general strike is completed absurd and I think shows a worryingly dangerous detachment from awareness of the needs of irish society at the moment.

wexford202

I just noticed on earlier threads that there were people saying that electricians do not earn over 800 per week. If they do not earn this now they are not being paid correctly in the first place as the rate of 21.49 per hour for 39 hours id 838.11 per week. They get pension from employer of 30 per week and travel of 168.26 per week (tax free) if the work more than 11 miles away. So the total of that per week is 1,036.37

I think it is very important to note that to date there has been no application to cut wages. I think it is more for defence than actually something that will be formally applied for.

Also the REA gives a percentage increase for each year so in 10 years an electrician would earn 30 per hour.

I can honestly say that nobody has pocketed any of 2007's money. What has happened in many cases is that with every project someone does the client hold back 2.5% from the electrical contractor for one year. It is so the contractor will stand over their work. This is known as retention. So for 2007 work this money was due to the contractor in 2008. This then meant that all the big developers got into trouble during 2008 and could not afford to pay this money to the contractor and the contractor had to do without. That is where the money went. Nobody pocketed it.

dartbhoy

Hi everyone. This is my first post on boards.ie. I have been reading with interest the last few days the arguments for and against the electricians strike. I'm a pipefitter and i'm working on the new Bord Gas power station in Whitegate Co Cork. I haven't worked this week yet because i refuse to pass a picket. There is a lot of misunderstanding about this strike but basically the sparkys are looking for rises that are due to them since 2007. The Union have been in the civil courts the last 2 years trying to get the contractors to pay up and it was ruled that the contractors were obliged to pay the rises due to them. The contractors are still refusing point blank to pay the money. The TEEU have tried all avenues to sort this out but their members wanted to ballot for strike action,the union gave them their ballot and they voted to go on strike. The timing of the strike is unfortunate but in reality they had no other option left due to the contractors complete refusal to talk. Personally i don't want to stay out of work but believe me if the sparkys lose this battle it will mean wage cuts across the board for everyone! What angers me is that we have 166 td's above in Dublin on outrageous wages yet less than 10% of them are prepared to take a small cut!

WindSock

Here is ony of my posts with a copy of their rates, for clarification. (apologies for pic on LHS, it was originally posted in AH )

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=60975315&postcount=12

bladespin

Andy18 wrote: »

Bladespin: I dont earn near 800 a week none of the sparks in my company do so your assesment of our pay is completly wrong.

Apologies if I was wrong Andy, I was using the basic rate of €21.49 per hour to calculate that, that is the Union rate isn't it???

wexford202

bladespin wrote: »

Apologies if I was wrong Andy, I was using the basic rate of €21.49 per hour to calculate that, that is the Union rate isn't it???

The rate is 21.49 per hour for 39 hours equals 838.11 before tax. Subsistence of 168.26 per week for working 11 miles away and employers pension contribution of 30.00 per week giving a total of 1036.37

For those saying that they do not earn this why the hell are they striking? The strike is for the increase of these rates so if you do not get them now and it is law to be paid them why are yoy bringing the country to a halt now.

I can tell you know all pipe fitters and plumbers I wouldn't bank of the electricians backing any of ye if ye were striking.

Boston

scorpioishere wrote: »

Yeah if they don't like it move away and give the job to people who wants to work and who is happy on minimum wage.

Why don't you take it up then?

kmick

For those that are saying that they are only looking for what they are due since 2007 it seems to me its akin to trying to get your money back from a corpse. Times are changed - the corpse and the economy are both dead and buried. NO-ONE outside of the Electricians can understand why this is being fought like this. They were outside a big site in Rathmines today urging people to honk their horns. No one was beeping. Some lads were shouting get back to work. This is possibly the most unpopular industrial action ever.

bladespin

Boston wrote: »

Why don't you take it up then?

I'd happliy take it up, even at the 10% reduction, €19 per hour would be fantastic for us right now.

bush Baby

Darragh29 wrote: »

Eamon Devoy from the TEEU was on Pat Kenny this morning swinging his dick all around studio... He says to the employers, "we've shut down your businesses and they won't be opening again until we say so"... For saying that alone, the man should have been pulled out of the chair by his fu*king ear and thrown through the studio window.

Fair play Darragh, that's one shed-load of outrage!!

irish_bob

eamonnm79 wrote: »

The people who are saying the sparkys should just bend over, are only contributing to the increasing democratic deficit in our society. The labour movement has done so so much for workers. 5 day weeks, health and safety paid holidays etc. etc.
And yet over the past 30 years, outside craft workers and the public sector, there has been slow but consistant reversal of the realisation that it was only by organising that people got these rights.

The mainly right wing media along with no small matter of petty jealousy ( people who felt like they had no option but to give in to the higher taxes, massive bank bailouts and mass redundancy are jealous of a group of people who feel they have a right to stand up for themselves, because it makes them feel weak)
Unless there is financial gain for you as an individual to lower other people's wages it makes no sense for workers to try to weaken the rights of people who actually havent forgotten they still have rights.

It is no coincidence that unionised workers in any industry make more money than non unionised workers.
Unless you are a fat cat it is just plain stupid to try to prevent these guys from trying to achieve the best pay and conditions as possible for themselves.

while your whole post is cramming with bull**** , the bit that takes the cake is where you say irelands media is right wing , it is overwhelmingly left wing

Boston

bladespin wrote: »

I'd happliy take it up, even at the 10% reduction, €19 per hour would be fantastic for us right now.

Ok, off with you. See you in two years times when you have your cert.

manafana

Things is 21euro an hour is alot money especially when taking into account slack time in building industry (and thats not having go) even in boom that was decent wage.
But ireland is so uncompetitive and its killing us with this high wages, and generous welfare system thats puts people off working low wage jobs.
Also to those giving out about companies making money off their backs they have always done, but example guiness is still making millions, but now with more electricans looking for work they dont have to keep paying such high prices.

bladespin

Boston wrote: »

Ok, off with you. See you in two years times when you have your cert.

I studied longer than that for my job, I don't make anything near that wage and I'm certainly not going to risk my job or anyone elses to get it.

Boston

bladespin wrote: »

I studied longer than that for my job, I don't make anything near that wage and I'm certainly not going to risk my job or anyone elses to get it.

Ah, I see, so you'd love the job, but you wont go after it. A job so easy anyone could do it, but you wont.

Jaysoose

I heard an out of work spark on joe duffy the other day use the word 'Comrades' i nearly spat my coffee all over the place. So your out of work and standing on a picket line?

Give them the payrise i say because when the smaller firms all go under due to costs and northern firms have come in and are charging realistic rates they will be getting €21.50 an hour for 0 hours per week.

The unions wont be happy till the country is completely bankrupt.

clinchy

As a spark myself i have no interest in the the pay rise i dont think we will get it but what i have a problem is the the pay cut we are expected to take the plunge so our employers can reap a bigger profit from us each week just because we take the pay cut doesn't mean we are gong to be in work any longer its a tough job alot of the time this strike is a long time coming

dartbhoy

wexford202 wrote: »

The rate is 21.49 per hour for 39 hours equals 838.11 before tax. Subsistence of 168.26 per week for working 11 miles away and employers pension contribution of 30.00 per week giving a total of 1036.37

For those saying that they do not earn this why the hell are they striking? The strike is for the increase of these rates so if you do not get them now and it is law to be paid them why are yoy bringing the country to a halt now.

I can tell you know all pipe fitters and plumbers I wouldn't bank of the electricians backing any of ye if ye were striking.

Have to agree with you there. On sites below in Cork no mechanical work is been done due to this strike but plenty of Pipefitters and Welders are thinking the same as yourself.

dartbhoy

clinchy wrote: »

As a spark myself i have no interest in the the pay rise i dont think we will get it but what i have a problem is the the pay cut we are expected to take the plunge so our employers can reap a bigger profit from us each week just because we take the pay cut doesn't mean we are gong to be in work any longer its a tough job alot of the time this strike is a long time coming

I agree with you on this. I'm happy enough with my rate once this paycut of 10% isn't introduced.

wexford202

dartbhoy wrote: »

I agree with you on this. I'm happy enough with my rate once this paycut of 10% isn't introduced.

There has been no application for reduction and I honestly doubt there will be especially now. I think it was more of a case of if you look for more I will look to drop wages.

I know plenty working around the country. Many are entering sites they do not normally work on so the electricians will not recognise them. They are wearing the construction companies vests and hard hats. Some construction companies are even giving their vans to the electricians as part of the cover up.

I also know many plumber and none are on this kind of money.

Remember Sparkies you get paid to do a four year course and that is what an apprenticeship is. There are not many industries as lucky.

Boston

wexford202 wrote: »

There has been no application for reduction and I honestly doubt there will be especially now. I think it was more of a case of if you look for more I will look to drop wages.

I know plenty working around the country. Many are entering sites they do not normally work on so the electricians will not recognise them. They are wearing the construction companies vests and hard hats. Some construction companies are even giving their vans to the electricians as part of the cover up.

I also know many plumber and none are on this kind of money.

Remember Sparkies you get paid to do a four year course and that is what an apprenticeship is. There are not many industries as lucky.

4 years? Since when? 2 Years and the apprenticeship is part of it.

Conar

clinchy wrote: »

i have a problem is the the pay cut we are expected to take the plunge so our employers can reap a bigger profit from us each week

This is wher I think a lot of the issues lie.
Companies need to make profits, unprofitable companies shut down and that helps no one.

It seems that since this recession hit people feel we should be a socialist country.
Where were all these socialists when we were booming?

I don't want to see anyone starve in this country but certain sectors need to realise that if they are costing more than can be afforded then cuts need to be made.
I'm looking at you public sector

darc

What seems to be missing from all the information being given out is the ballot for the strike was held over a year ago.

You can be absolutely guaranteed that if the exact same ballot was held today the vast majority would NOT vote for it as they would consider themselves lucky to have a well paid job in the first place.

dan_d

As a site engineer this sticks in my gut.
I get paid less than these electricians, work longer hours and have far more responsibility. I don't get overtime (for working 50 hours and more a week), travel allowance, anything. I spent 4 years in college and am 4 years on site now. It might be my choice to do this career, but I find it very hard to have sympathy with anyone involved in this strike. Furthermore I have friends (engineers both site and consultant) who have taken 15% pay cuts in the last 6 months alone, and are being told to take more time off so the companies won't have to let people go. And it's a case of take the pay cut or there's the door. No unions involved. It sucks but when it comes down to the cut or the job, most accept that it's necessary.
I know they might be legally right etc, etc, but honestly, electricians are paid obscene money here in comparison to most other countries. If they do get a payrise, it's likely their companies will have to close within a few months because they'll go bankrupt. Otherwise I just don't know where they are going with this strike and more importantly what they think they will get from it.

Sparks

dan_d wrote: »

I know they might be legally right etc

That's what's cracking me up about this. They're demanding what was agreed upon. If the boot was on the other foot, I don't believe you'd see too many employers who had no objection to a 10% pay cut instead of an 11% pay rise. It might be selfish, but feck it, have you noticed what country we're living in? Altruism in Ireland is pretty much a loosing proposition. And if employers can ignore agreements on paying their workers so easily, they can equally ignore payments to clients and suppliers, and then the whole mess comes down about our ears.

I think the most interesting solution I've heard of so far though, is for the pay rise to be realised as an equity stake in the businesses rather than cash.

wexford202

Boston wrote: »

4 years? Since when? 2 Years and the apprenticeship is part of it.

A Fas apprenticeship is 209 weeks. This includes both on the job training and off the job training (College). When you are on site you are still deemed to be training and therefore a student.

Fas will not issue any National Craft Certificate until your on the job training instructer has signed a document to say that you have completed your training with them.

wexford202

dan_d wrote: »

As a site engineer this sticks in my gut.
I get paid less than these electricians, work longer hours and have far more responsibility. I don't get overtime (for working 50 hours and more a week), travel allowance, anything. I spent 4 years in college and am 4 years on site now. It might be my choice to do this career, but I find it very hard to have sympathy with anyone involved in this strike. Furthermore I have friends (engineers both site and consultant) who have taken 15% pay cuts in the last 6 months alone, and are being told to take more time off so the companies won't have to let people go. And it's a case of take the pay cut or there's the door. No unions involved. It sucks but when it comes down to the cut or the job, most accept that it's necessary.
I know they might be legally right etc, etc, but honestly, electricians are paid obscene money here in comparison to most other countries. If they do get a payrise, it's likely their companies will have to close within a few months because they'll go bankrupt. Otherwise I just don't know where they are going with this strike and more importantly what they think they will get from it.

I would agree that the engineer gets too little for the work that they do in comparasion tot he electrcian. It probably shold be the same considering you are answerable as the designer on the jobs that the sparks do.

Conar

Sparks wrote: »

That's what's cracking me up about this. They're demanding what was agreed upon. If the boot was on the other foot, I don't believe you'd see too many employers who had no objection to a 10% pay cut instead of an 11% pay rise..

Ok, lets try and reverse the situation so and see what you think of it.
If the unions agreed to a 10% pay cut due to a complete collapse of the sector but dug their heels in about implementing it for a year or 2.....I know this would never happen for a couple of reasons but bear with me.

Now lets say that the economy suddenly recovers and we enter a sector boom. Do you think the unions would stick with the previous agreement and allow it to be implemented even though there was now plenty of cash in the industry?

I know its a serious hypothetical mess of a question but I hope you can get where I'm coming from.

Sparks wrote: »

And if employers can ignore agreements on paying their workers so easily, they can equally ignore payments to clients and suppliers, and then the whole mess comes down about our ears.

Ah cmon. You can honestly believe that statement. Take it back

Sparks wrote: »

I think the most interesting solution I've heard of so far though, is for the pay rise to be realised as an equity stake in the businesses rather than cash.

I hadn't heard that but on first impression it sounds like a possible solution.