Electricians' strike 'a major success' - TEEU

Sparks

Conar wrote: »

Ah cmon. You can honestly believe that statement. Take it back

I might be able to do so more easily if, say for example, Meteor hadn't waited three months before refunding me the thousand euro or so they overcharged me on a bill.
I don't really have much in the way of faith when it comes to people, whether they be on the trade union side or on the employer side, so the whole concept of a signed contract or agreement being binding is something I think is rather important as a result.

chalkitdown

dan_d wrote: »

As a site engineer this sticks in my gut.
I get paid less than these electricians, work longer hours and have far more responsibility. I don't get overtime (for working 50 hours and more a week), travel allowance, anything. I spent 4 years in college and am 4 years on site now. It might be my choice to do this career, but I find it very hard to have sympathy with anyone involved in this strike. Furthermore I have friends (engineers both site and consultant) who have taken 15% pay cuts in the last 6 months alone, and are being told to take more time off so the companies won't have to let people go. And it's a case of take the pay cut or there's the door. No unions involved. It sucks but when it comes down to the cut or the job, most accept that it's necessary.
I know they might be legally right etc, etc, but honestly, electricians are paid obscene money here in comparison to most other countries. If they do get a payrise, it's likely their companies will have to close within a few months because they'll go bankrupt. Otherwise I just don't know where they are going with this strike and more importantly what they think they will get from it.

You need to join a union then.

bladespin

Boston wrote: »

Ah, I see, so you'd love the job, but you wont go after it. A job so easy anyone could do it, but you wont.

Did I say anywhere that anyone could do it?
I don't remember that, I work in that area, generation, and I love it.
I can't go after it, at 34 with a family to support I can't just drop everything to look for an apprenticeship now can I? you're trolling there, are you a union rep by any chance, you're qualified bye the looks of it. They're the ones who let you down, not me.

Be grateful for what you've got, this country is teetering on the edge at the moment, if things continue then the agreements won't be worth anything and wages will be negotiated from scratch, not good for anyone.

Jip

Conar wrote: »

It seems that since this recession hit people feel we should be a socialist country.
Where were all these socialists when we were booming?

Completely agree with you, I raised this exact point about everyone now being socialists some months back in a different thread. All of a sudden 'profit' is a dirty word and it's disgusting how some of the union reps talk about it.

Everyone involved on the TEEU and electricians side seem to be devoid of any sense of basic economics.

wexford202

Jip wrote: »

Completely agree with you, I raised this exact point about everyone now being socialists some months back in a different thread. All of a sudden 'profit' is a dirty word and it's disgusting how some of the union reps talk about it.

Everyone involved on the TEEU and electricians side seem to be devoid of any sense of basic economics.

It is very important for any company to make a profit.

EPACE are the TEEU's cushy way of cashing in on contractors. They made a PROFIT of 80,000.00 LAST YEAR.

Now you may wonder what do EPACE have to do with the TEEU?

This is what they have to do with them:
1. They work out of the same office in Dublin. Side by side hand in hand.
2. Charlie Prizeman is a director of EPACE and also works for the union in fact was marching outside the Corrib Gas site yesterday. What a f&%king hero.
3. Dan Miller also works for Both.
4. Owen Wills also works for both.

The union are ripping you off. They are taking your union contibutions and putting a percentage of it into the EPACE company which is private limited like all businesses and they can spend it any way they like. Also a percentage of your pension goes to these cu%ts so I would be asking my emlloyer to ensure that I am not paying these guys to profit from me.

Over 800,000.00 flowed through their books in 2007, the same year as you say your employers ripped you off. The unions owe you money not the electricial contractors.

Ask them for that 80,000.00 profit. Ask your union reps that when they are dragging you out of work and you are not getting paid for striking.

You all need to open your eyes and see that unlike other unions the TEEU is corrupt and is robbing you blind but because you have been blanketed from the real world you are blind to it.

Conar

Jip wrote: »

Completely agree with you, I raised this exact point about everyone now being socialists some months back in a different thread. All of a sudden 'profit' is a dirty word and it's disgusting how some of the union reps talk about it.

Exactly!

Look at all those fat cat electricians trying to increase their profits, shame on them

Jip

wexford202 wrote: »

The union are ripping you off.

Not ripping me off, I'm not an electician and no union is getting protection money from me.

Are you making your points to the general readers of this thread or me specifically because I've no idea why your reply is in response to my post.

wexford202

Jip wrote: »

Not ripping me off, I'm not an electician and no union is getting protection money from me.

Are you making your points to the general readers of this thread or me specifically because I've no idea why your reply is in response to my post.

Sorry I was started commenting on your profit being a dirty word but I was then intending to make the stiking electricians aware of where the profit is going.

Not intended for you in any direct way at all.

Jip

Ah, I get you !

tbh

most of the sparks I know accept the fact that the money isn't there to pay them, but in fairness I can understand the principles of their argument.

Most of the contractors I know accept the fact that the rise is due, but they just can't afford to pay it.

It would seem to me like both sides need to acknowledge the others position and move forward. For example, something like the sparks being entitled to a share of any profits from the contractor at year end, or something along those lines, and leave the pay where it is. Both sides seem to be painting themselves into a huge corner, someone will have to wiggle eventually.

Sparks

wexford202 wrote: »

They made a PROFIT of 80,000.00 LAST YEAR.

Sorry, they made a total profit (net/gross?) of eighty thousand euro? You do realise that that's peanuts, right?

wexford202

tbh wrote: »

most of the sparks I know accept the fact that the money isn't there to pay them, but in fairness I can understand the principles of their argument.

Most of the contractors I know accept the fact that the rise is due, but they just can't afford to pay it.

It would seem to me like both sides need to acknowledge the others position and move forward. For example, something like the sparks being entitled to a share of any profits from the contractor at year end, or something along those lines, and leave the pay where it is. Both sides seem to be painting themselves into a huge corner, someone will have to wiggle eventually.

Absolutely no way!!!

As a director of a company I am personally liable if the company can't meet it's debts. I can be struck off as a director and I can also face jail for my companies bad decisions if there are any made.

There is absolutely no fricken way that an employee of mine can have a cut of my profits. A director of a company has alot more hours to put into a company than it's employees and are answerable to everyone when anything happens.

What if the electricians of the companies got a percentage of the profit but also had to suffer the cost of the losses that the company incurs when it doesn't get paid. I didn't get paid over 100,000 off a job. I do not think that my guys would be willing to cover those costs.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. That is the most crazy suggestion ever.

A director of the company can't just take money from it's company when they feel like it.

I would close business immediately if that were to be decided.

PROFIT is important in a business. There is no point in having a business unless you make profit.

tbh

wexford202 wrote: »

Absolutely no way!!!

As a director of a company I am personally liable if the company can't meet it's debts. I can be struck off as a director and I can also face jail for my companies bad decisions if there are any made.

There is absolutely no fricken way that an employee of mine can have a cut of my profits. A director of a company has alot more hours to put into a company than it's employees and are answerable to everyone when anything happens.

What if the electricians of the companies got a percentage of the profit but also had to suffer the cost of the losses that the company incurs when it doesn't get paid. I didn't get paid over 100,000 off a job. I do not think that my guys would be willing to cover those costs.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. That is the most crazy suggestion ever.

A director of the company can't just take money from it's company when they feel like it.

I would close business immediately if that were to be decided.

PROFIT is important in a business. There is no point in having a business unless you make profit.

it's just a suggestion man. It's a way for you to acknowledge that the sparks are entitled to more than they are getting, entitled under law. If you did work for me, and I promised to pay you a certain sum, and then told you I couldn't pay, would you be willing to continue working for me on trust? even if there were no other jobs?

wexford202

Sparks wrote: »

Sorry, they made a total profit (net/gross?) of eighty thousand euro? You do realise that that's peanuts, right?

That is pre tax profit.

It isn't peanuts either. With assets of 800,000.00 that is high.

These people do not contract work. they issue certificates. They do not sell anything. You cannot buy anything from this company. It is all just money being trabsfeered from union to them.

You take 800,000.00 given to them and profit of 80,000.00

Where is the rest of the money gone. They do not have to rent a building etc.

They should have no money.

wexford202

tbh wrote: »

it's just a suggestion man. It's a way for you to acknowledge that the sparks are entitled to more than they are getting, entitled under law. If you did work for me, and I promised to pay you a certain sum, and then told you I couldn't pay, would you be willing to continue working for me on trust? even if there were no other jobs?

Personally I do not think that any of the electricians striking have been given any type of a promise by their employers as this agreement was made 19 years ago. Majority of electricians are not working for the same contractor for 19 years.

19 years ago many of the sriking business were not even trading. 16 businesses were looked at when creating this REA and majority are not even trading now. So those that promised were sorry they did.

I am howver not a member of the TEEU, AECI or ECA so I have not promised anything. They created the agreement.

Sparks

wexford202 wrote: »

Absolutely no way!!!

Kinda hard to tell that attitude from the union's attitude from the outside.

Just sayin'...

wexford202

Sparks wrote: »

Kinda hard to tell that attitude from the union's attitude from the outside.

Just sayin'...

As an employer I can say that I do believe the rates should not be cut as these can be maintained at present but it is not known how long. I know I couldn't afford to pay the increase as my electricians have company vehicles which is not my obligation to give but I do value them. If I have to pay the increase I would have to take the vans and deisel back which is costing me 300.00 per week total for each one. They perfer the way things are now that having to go out and buy a van for the sake of a payrise that will really just go to the tax man.

It would be huge work to organise shares etc in a business. The shares would also have to be sold as you cannot just give them out (Unless you happen to die which may well happen due to stress in my case!)

I have had alot of dealings with unions and would dread to think I could be taken in the same regard. The union is not going to move on anything. They are only wiling to take an increase. They are giving no option.

The Labour Court did not pass the pay rise last year and said that it was not to be paid. It wouldn't be right to penalise employers for doing what the labour court have advised them to do.

Small Change

tbh wrote: »

If you did work for me, and I promised to pay you a certain sum, and then told you I couldn't pay, would you be willing to continue working for me on trust? even if there were no other jobs?

Fair enough, but would you then seek to prevent someone else taking on the job? and prevent other people from working there in other parts of the business? and disrupt production in other unrelated businesses?

wexford202

They are striking outside of buildings they have nothing to do wh=ith. I know this for a facta s the went to my site with their pickets and were told by my eletrician to [EMAIL="f@%k"]f@%k[/EMAIL] off as they have no members on our site and then have no right to picket there.

ceret

I've created a wikipedia page for the TEEU. Perhaps people more knowledgeable than me could update it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technical_Engineering_and_Electrical_Union

tbh

Small Change wrote: »

Fair enough, but would you then seek to prevent someone else taking on the job? and prevent other people from working there in other parts of the business? and disrupt production in other unrelated businesses?

honest answer, I'd like to think I wouldn't, but if my livelihood was at risk, I probably would.

midg23

Im An electrical Apprentice and in Second year, here's the story because we are coming across as the bad guys in this mess,

My wage is 9.33 ph which is €363.87 a week, before tax, where after tax and pension is about €320, im from Limerick and working in Dublin for a company based in Clonmel, we get travel Allowance for staying in Dublin,(national Agreed Rate) of €168.68(approx) a week.

Electricans out of their time 5 years are getting €21.49 ph. On April 1st 2008 that rate was supposed to go to €22.54 and 1st of April 09 up to €23.98.

This wage increase is based on what the top 16 companies in Ireland have RAKED in within the previous year, and Employers signed a legally binding contract every year to say yes to this pay rise, all was going well until the start of the recession when employers realised they could try pull the wool over peoples eyes by asking for a pay cut and not giving the agreed rise, EVEN THOUGH all the jobs are priced on the higher rate €23.98 the increase in funds made by the employers is not passed on.

And now they want us to take a 10% pay cut, accompanied with the 11% rise that they already are hollding back, they are effectively taking 21% of the wages for Qualified Sparks, 70% for 4th year and 40%for second year. and if they succeed in this they also, within the same agreement want to take the lodge/travel money from us, which to me is €330 - 40% leaves me with €200 approx, - €100 for place to stay while in Dublin and €50 for petrol up and down= €50 left to pay bills, rent loans food and i also have a child to take care of.

WOULD YOU TAKE A 21% PAY CUT???

The Employers want this cut but about 90% of Electricians and Apprentices would be happy with a pay freeze, going back to work and keeping our lodge/travel, and coming back in 12-18 months to try resolve this a differnet way BUT the employers are trying to screw us into the ground.

We All want to go back to work aswell because it is costing us money to stay out, BUT you have to realise this is a domino effect, if we lose our agreement, the next one to go is the plumbers rate and agreement and then they'll be on strike, then maybe the bricklayers, then the carpenters, all of whom will all go on Strike as well.

So WE ARE NOT THE BAD GUYS IN THIS MESS!

Conar

midg23 wrote: »

And now they want us to take a 10% pay cut, accompanied with the 11% rise that they already are hollding back, they are effectively taking 21% of the wages for Qualified Sparks

WOULD YOU TAKE A 21% PAY CUT???

I thought this was probably where the 21% was coming from.
Thats not a 21% cut the maths is plain wrong.
You think you should be on 111% of what you're on now.
Employers think 90%.
If they got their way you would drop 21 out of the 111 which equates to an 18.9% drop but you never had that other 11%, so you wouldn't be losing it.
Its a 10% drop and no more.

midg23 wrote: »

Employers signed a legally binding contract every year to say yes to this pay rise, all was going well until the start of the recession when employers realised they could try pull the wool over peoples eyes by asking for a pay cut and not giving the agreed rise

I honestly feel that they would never sign up to any such agreement if it wasn't for the constant union threat of strikes, so I can completely understand that they would finally pull out once they realise that they are going to be operating at a loss for the next few years or at best scraping by.

midg23 wrote: »

The Employers want this cut but about 90% of Electricians and Apprentices would be happy with a pay freeze, going back to work and keeping our lodge/travel, and coming back in 12-18 months to try resolve this a differnet way BUT the employers are trying to screw us into the ground.

I'm sorry but this lodge/travel thing just seems insane to me.
Fair play for travelling from Limerick to Dublin to work but why should any employer have to pay for that? It makes no sense. I honestly don't get why an employer should be penalised for people accepting jobs that are far from where they live.

astrofool

I think if the option was no job or a 21% cut, people would take the cut.

Companies are going to start closing up, some due to running out of cash (no more overdrafts) due to lack of work, some because there's not enough profit in it. Many more sparks are going to be out of work as a result of the strike.

irish_bob

every sector in the country will be taking a 21% pay cut at least in the next few years , wages here are close on 30% higher than in other european countries which are wealthier than us

Hoagy

midg23 wrote: »

This wage increase is based on what the top 16 companies in Ireland have RAKED in within the previous year, and Employers signed a legally binding contract every year to say yes to this pay rise, all was going well until the start of the recession when employers realised they could try pull the wool over peoples eyes by asking for a pay cut and not giving the agreed rise, EVEN THOUGH all the jobs are priced on the higher rate €23.98 the increase in funds made by the employers is not passed on.

Two things:
First, the 16 companies in the analogue are industrial employers with maintenance electricians. The point of the excercise is to keep contracting electricians at approx. 110% of the average, however the maintenance guys have various non-core allowances which end up included in the total, which has led to increases well over inflation.

Second, I'm involved in tendering and absolutely nobody has been tendering for contracts with the increases included. Just doesn't happen.
The old public contracts had a price variation clause, so increases were recoverable. The current contracts are all fixed price with no recovery of wage increases, which is one of the reasons the employers are against the increase.

ceret

midg23 wrote: »

WOULD YOU TAKE A 21% PAY CUT???

Yes I pretty much did.

Company I worked for announced 15% pay cuts across the board with no consulation. We didn't have a union (my profession doesn't have any unions), so it was put up or shut up.

This is the reality that lots of people have faced. You're giving yourself a bad rep, and you'll lose goodwill of the general public if it looks like you're just looking out for yourselves. Eventually you'll wind up with a worse deal that you could have got before.

eamonnm79

My opinion is that most people here who are telling the sparkys to take the cut and get on with a very short sighted.
Sure if they lay down for that the employer will be back in 6 months looking for another 10%.
Do you people know anything about the way negotiations take place in craft employment?
As an apprentice mentioned above it is not only the 21%. It is also the cuts in other allowances.

Take a read of Vincent brownes Article in the Times today.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2009/0708/1224250234932.html

All you people are doing is encouraging the a growth of inequality in our society.

I genuinely think that People just repeating the right wing mantras they read in the independent and the tabloids because they are just not informed.
Others are simply jealous that they are not part of an organisation that would stand up for them.
There are a lot of stories on this thread of people going through terrible times on their own and then saying that they dont see why these people should be treated any better.
Its a common even natural but ultimitely self defeating reaction.

A more useful reaction would be to ask yourselves, How can I make sure that I am not deserted and shafted the next time. How can I make sure that I am protected.
Our ecomomy is supposed to be designed to help our society function. Not the other way around.

It is true to say that the economic pie is getting smaller at the moment but the chunk least effected is the large chunk belong to the wealthy and powerful. The one exception is the big developers but nama will look after them.
By continualy arguing that people in a job should just bend over and take whatever poor conditions their employers want to give them we are shrinking the ever more acute angle of the slice of the pie that citizens and workers still have.
Sure feck it. Lets all go live in a Sean O Casey Play.

eamonnm79

ceret wrote: »

Yes I pretty much did.

Company I worked for announced 15% pay cuts across the board with no consulation. We didn't have a union (my profession doesn't have any unions), so it was put up or shut up.

This is the reality that lots of people have faced. You're giving yourself a bad rep, and you'll lose goodwill of the general public if it looks like you're just looking out for yourselves. Eventually you'll wind up with a worse deal that you could have got before.

I hope the general public have more cop on.
But you are probobly right!

Conar

midg23 wrote: »

My wage is 9.33 ph which is €363.87 a week, before tax, where after tax and pension is about €320, im from Limerick and working in Dublin for a company based in Clonmel, we get travel Allowance for staying in Dublin,(national Agreed Rate) of €168.68(approx) a week.

OMG I just actually thought about this now.
Are you actualy telling me that as a 2nd year apprentice you are earning 27.7k per year? (363.87+168.68)x52
Thats just nuts.
I'm sorry but that just seems way too high to me.
I appreciate that you have a child and all that and you probably don't even notice all the money going but I can see now why all my younger brothers friends were let go during their apprenticeships as soon as the recession hit. Thats crazy money to have to pay someone while you're also supposed to be training them.