Electricians' strike 'a major success' - TEEU

max 73

i would like to know (as a roofing contractor) is the union going to pay me for lost time, production, wages, etc, etc......i think not!

i'm all for rewarding hard work and if its viabable to do pay reviews it is done with the employees input and being honest as to the current situation with workloads, payments, etc...our guys want to work but on certain sites we cant do this and there is nowhere else to send them only home at my cost and puts me behind already tight deadlines added to that there is the unseen cost of clawing back the lost hours to put ourselves back on track

"COMMON SENSE" seem to be the two missing words in any dispute - if theres a will theres a way....from my vantage point there seems to be no will

wexford202

midg23 wrote: »

Im An electrical Apprentice and in Second year, here's the story because we are coming across as the bad guys in this mess,

My wage is 9.33 ph which is €363.87 a week, before tax, where after tax and pension is about €320, im from Limerick and working in Dublin for a company based in Clonmel, we get travel Allowance for staying in Dublin,(national Agreed Rate) of €168.68(approx) a week.

Electricans out of their time 5 years are getting €21.49 ph. On April 1st 2008 that rate was supposed to go to €22.54 and 1st of April 09 up to €23.98.

This wage increase is based on what the top 16 companies in Ireland have RAKED in within the previous year, and Employers signed a legally binding contract every year to say yes to this pay rise, all was going well until the start of the recession when employers realised they could try pull the wool over peoples eyes by asking for a pay cut and not giving the agreed rise, EVEN THOUGH all the jobs are priced on the higher rate €23.98 the increase in funds made by the employers is not passed on.

And now they want us to take a 10% pay cut, accompanied with the 11% rise that they already are hollding back, they are effectively taking 21% of the wages for Qualified Sparks, 70% for 4th year and 40%for second year. and if they succeed in this they also, within the same agreement want to take the lodge/travel money from us, which to me is €330 - 40% leaves me with €200 approx, - €100 for place to stay while in Dublin and €50 for petrol up and down= €50 left to pay bills, rent loans food and i also have a child to take care of.

WOULD YOU TAKE A 21% PAY CUT???

The Employers want this cut but about 90% of Electricians and Apprentices would be happy with a pay freeze, going back to work and keeping our lodge/travel, and coming back in 12-18 months to try resolve this a differnet way BUT the employers are trying to screw us into the ground.

We All want to go back to work aswell because it is costing us money to stay out, BUT you have to realise this is a domino effect, if we lose our agreement, the next one to go is the plumbers rate and agreement and then they'll be on strike, then maybe the bricklayers, then the carpenters, all of whom will all go on Strike as well.

So WE ARE NOT THE BAD GUYS IN THIS MESS!

There ahs been no application for a 10% pay cut with the labour court to date.

I was a threat of if you look for more money I will look to py less. This threat was put to the union who ignorred it. It is the union that are only willing to agree at the moment on one thing a pay rise. They have not been willing to discuss a pay freeze.

It is not looked to cancel the REA but to amend it so that in 10 years time you will not be entitled to 40 euros per hour.

The people that created this agreement didn't even have the licence to do so and therefore the agreement should be null and void.

dbready

the bolt wrote: »

as someone who supports your strike can you tell me why your union didnt call this strike three years ago when the economy was in better condition and they needed you more than they do now? good luck.

They did not take the action 3 years ago because the union chiefs were to busy spending their whopping €150k + for signing a few agreements with employers. But now with union members losing their jobs they may not be getting all their union dues.

Result - they are using the electricians as pawns to keep themselves in a job!! disgraceful

jenzz

Its all a big mess really. I know of a huge company in south Dublin who have put all staff on protective notice because of the Electrician strike. Im not going to get into the whos right whos wrong becuase there is 2 sides to the story . I just know this company employ aprox 3000 people who will not be getting paid tomorrow. Thats an awful lot of euros not entering the economy this week & they will be lucky if they have a job in a weeks / months time due to something they cannot control. ( They were told by their own management not to cross the picket )

wexford202

Another reason why the strike did not happen a few years ago is because all electricians had work then and there was an endless tap of union contributions reaching the TEEU each week.

There are at least 3000 unemployed electricians accross the country which is now losing the union over 10,000.00 per week. All these redundant people are going to the union now and looking for all the courses etc the unions promised them if they ever lost their jobs. The union are now caught out with huge bills and little contributions.

That is why they are striking now to get the employees more money. I would like to ask the TEEU do the intend on freezing the employees contributions for 5 years because my guess is now that will go up by 20% if the increase comes in.

wexford202

jenzz wrote: »

Its all a big mess really. I know of a huge company in south Dublin who have put all staff on protective notice because of the Electrician strike. Im not going to get into the whos right whos wrong becuase there is 2 sides to the story . I just know this company employ aprox 3000 people who will not be getting paid tomorrow. Thats an awful lot of euros not entering the economy this week & they will be lucky if they have a job in a weeks / months time due to something they cannot control. ( They were told by their own management not to cross the picket )

I would be saying to my management that I am willing to work and cross the picket to do so. If you do not want me to cross it will you still pay me.

I am in the elctrical industry and I can promise you that we would not be fighting for you. BATU the brickies union didn't get the electricians support by the electricians are now looking for theirs

dbready

If the unions are so concerned for their members why don't they make a positive contribution to the crisis - they have been creaming their members for years, hiking the union dues (fact!), no one seemed bothered about this in the good times because the unions managed to constantly get unsustainable pay hkes from employers who had to pay them or lose their staff.

Wake up, times have changed there are now pay cuts - are the unions going to reflect this in their dues. Considering there have been no strikes since 1990 from the TEEU the kitty must be overflowing!!

Reduce members dues by 50% to counteract any pay cut - it will work out a lot cheaper than paying strikers €120 a week to strike and jeopardise everybodys future!!!

wexford202

dbready wrote: »

If the unions are so concerned for their members why don't they make a positive contribution to the crisis - they have been creaming their members for years, hiking the union dues (fact!), no one seemed bothered about this in the good times because the unions managed to constantly get unsustainable pay hkes from employers who had to pay them or lose their staff.

Wake up, times have changed there are now pay cuts - are the unions going to reflect this in their dues. Considering there have been no strikes since 1990 from the TEEU the kitty must be overflowing!!

Reduce members dues by 50% to counteract any pay cut - it will work out a lot cheaper than paying strikers €120 a week to strike and jeopardise everybodys future!!!

That would make perfect sense but try explaining this to Eamon Devoy of the TEEU.

If you could get the dick head off his high horse for a minute to listen to something else other than his own voice it would be great.

dbready

wexford202 wrote: »

That would make perfect sense but try explaining this to Eamon Devoy of the TEEU.

If you could get the dick head off his high horse for a minute to listen to something else other than his own voice it would be great.

Eamon Devoy is a dying breed, using disgruntled electricians as pawns to prop his own worthless existence. There are enough labour protections for employees in the workplace. Unions are just a form of bullying.

Question: Why is it illegal to prevent someone joining a union, but not illegal to force someone to join a union, free choice??? not a term the unions understand, biggotted and living in the dark ages.

How can employees not in a union manage to get a pay increase, answer hardwork being rewarded, not a god given right because some members of the union live on the back of hardworking individuals, time to wise up!!

Small Change

midg23 wrote: »

Im An electrical Apprentice and in Second year, here's the story because we are coming across as the bad guys in this mess,

Employers signed a legally binding contract every year to say yes to this pay rise,

Firstly, fair play for coming on here and giving your side.

One thing confuses me in all this...who were the "employers" who signed up to this agreement?
For example, were Diagio and Cadburys party to the agreement?

wexford202

Originally Posted by midg23
Im An electrical Apprentice and in Second year, here's the story because we are coming across as the bad guys in this mess,

Employers signed a legally binding contract every year to say yes to this pay rise,

**********************************************

get your facts right Midg24.

There has been nothing signed and thats why you are striking. It was signed every other year but not since 2007 due to the fact that the AECI and the ECA said no.

The REA was to be signed every year but in fact was not over the last two years. The union couldn't get the others to sign it.

That is the reason why you are striking.

I would have imagined that you would have know that before you go marching around with your picket

wexford202

Small Change wrote: »

Firstly, fair play for coming on here and giving your side.

One thing confuses me in all this...who were the "employers" who signed up to this agreement?
For example, were Diagio and Cadburys party to the agreement?

Yhe people that signed up to 2007 were the TEEU, AECI and the ECA

The TEEU were the only people that signe in 2008 for the increase.

The people picketing Cadbury and Diagio had no right to be thee. They were not woking fr both companies and the people that are working for the two are not union members. It was decided by the union to pick prominent businesses regardless if the were unionised or not for max effect.

Conar

Can I ask a quick question or 2 of electricians that I and others have touched on here.
Do hard working electricians never feel that they should be earning more than those that are quite unproductive?
If not do you feel that all people in all jobs should earn the same wage regardless of area of work or how hard they work?
Would you strike for shop assistants in solidarity or do you only care about people that work on "sites"?
Why do you only care about those that work beside you yet expect people outside of your work to care for your strikes?
Would you like to see all areas of work controlled by the same unions or ones similar to your own?
Who controls the union agenda's to ensure no corruption or ulterior motives?
How would you feel if the buses, petrol station workers, taxi's and toll bridges workers were on a solidarity strike at the time?
Would you get annoyed or just agree that they are using their democratic rights?
Do you think the entire civil service should have gone on strike when their levy was announced?

I know these are mostly rhetorical questions in a sense but hey....worth thinking about.
I really think that its time to regulate unions and limit what they can act on.
get rid of all pay deals and let people work for reward.
Lets have a system that encourages work like the american system yet protects their rights like the well Irish systems.

Jip

Devoy is still deluded. Just heard him on news at one, he's saying that because few people passed the picket all those that didn't are fully supportive of the strike. Sure, it's nothing to do with the hassle and intimidation people who would pass the picket would get. I know of 2 guys personally who won't pass the picket purely for this reason, they completely disagree with the strikers.

Small Change

wexford202 wrote: »

Yhe people that signed up to 2007 were the TEEU, AECI and the ECA
.

So, if I understand this correctly it works as follows;
- I own a construction company and have a requirement for electrical work
- I enter an agreement with a contracting company (Company X) that is a member of ECA and agree a price for the job with that company
- The electricians working on my site dispute their pay agreement with Company X which I have no responsibility for
- The electricians organise a picket of my site and attempt to shut down my production due to their dispute with Company X

Have I got this right?

wexford202

I know a person that passed it and they all started throwing stuff ant him.

Another guy drove down to Cork yesterday and was not let onto site. He didn't even have the choice on whether to enter site or not. He was just told no.

For those that are crossing the picket line you will have the last laugh tomorrow when you get a pay cheque and the guys striking don't

wexford202

Small Change wrote: »

So, if I understand this correctly it works as follows;
- I own a construction company and have a requirement for electrical work
- I enter an agreement with a contracting company (Company X) that is a member of ECA and agree a price for the job with that company
- The electricians working on my site dispute their pay agreement with Company X which I have no responsibility for
- The electricians organise a picket of my site and attempt to shut down my production due to their dispute with Company X

Have I got this right?

That's pretty much right. They can do that if the strike is official which this one is.

As the construction company you actually do have the legal obligation to employ compliant contractors to work on your site. The brickies union BATU actually brought developers to court before for employing what they thought (just assumed) were un compliant contractors to work on their sites as they were so pissed that their own members had no work.

moot

Originally Posted by Small Change
So, if I understand this correctly it works as follows;
- I own a construction company and have a requirement for electrical work
- I enter an agreement with a contracting company (Company X) that is a member of ECA and agree a price for the job with that company
- The electricians working on my site dispute their pay agreement with Company X which I have no responsibility for
- The electricians organise a picket of my site and attempt to shut down my production due to their dispute with Company X

Have I got this right?

Actually it can be worse than that, I've edited your quote below to show how bizarre it can get,

- I own a manufacturing company, nothing to do with construction, and have a requirement for electrical work
- I enter an agreement with a contracting company (Company X) that is a member of ECA and agree a price for the job with that company.
- On a site of approx 400 people there are 3 electricians doing small jobs around the place
- The electricians working on my site dispute their pay agreement with Company X which I have no responsibility for
- The electricians don't picket my site, instead some people I've never seen before and have never worked on my site before picket my site and succeed in shutting down my production due to their dispute with Company X, High court injunctions aren't cheap so we don't go for it.
- Maintenance on my site who are also in the TEEU won't pass the picket. - We have to get on to our US parent co. to explain why we're missing a weeks production. They immediately start looking at "contingency plans" (i.e. how they can get along without the crazy Irish).

Originally Posted by dbready
Question: Why is it illegal to prevent someone joining a union, but not illegal to force someone to join a union, free choice??? not a term the unions understand, biggotted and living in the dark ages.

dbready I couldn't agree more. We need some legislation to make closed shop agreements illegal. NECI don't want to be party to the REA and I hope they win their high court action. This would make the TEEU-CIF talks irrelevant, as NECI contractors would win more tenders (with lower paid electricians) and CIF/TEEU/Eamon Devoy/Tom Parlon and EPACE can all negotiate their way to hell together.

(I've never posted before but this issue makes my blood boil, my job is now at risk because of all of this and it is nothing to do with me).

ceret

dbready wrote: »

Question: Why is it illegal to prevent someone joining a union, but not illegal to force someone to join a union, free choice??? not a term the unions understand, biggotted and living in the dark ages.

That's a closed shop. It's illegal in the UK link. I've heard that it might be illegal under EU law, so it *might* apply here in Ireland.

eamonnm79

I see the employers have taken the 10% pay reduction off the table.
Who would have thought that when the whole industry unites that the employers start to buckle?
All the evidence shows that being in a Union is benificial for both pay and conditions of employment.
The Irish are fairly much alone in cutting wages in europe.
The competitiivemness arguement does not stand up.
Irish exports have stood up much better than any other european country this year. We are down 3%
The next closest is Poland down 9%.
Competitiveness is not our problem at all but the media will tell you very much the oppisite.
Our problem is that we are trying to tax and cut our way out of this.
It doesnt work, never has, never will.

However our problems are so dire that we have very few options.

Jip

eamonnm79 wrote: »

The Irish are fairly much alone in cutting wages in europe.
The competitiivemness arguement does not stand up.

Have you seen the wage comparisons between us and the rest of Europe, there's a reason why most of Europe don't need to. Ask yourself then why would a company that was already based in Ireland, with Irish staff and alot of money invested in property and equipment would leave all this to move elsewhere to Europe ? Do you think it's just for the change of scenery ?

wexford202

The 10% pay cut was only ever used as a weapon and as something to bring to the table when negoiating with the TEEU.

I won't take 10% off wages if you do not increase them

eamonnm79

Jip wrote: »

Have you seen the wage comparisons between us and the rest of Europe, there's a reason why most of Europe don't need to. Ask yourself then why would a company that was already based in Ireland, with Irish staff and alot of money invested in property and equipment would leave all this to move elsewhere to Europe ? Do you think it's just for the change of scenery ?

They mainly wouldnt (for tax reasons).
As shown in our export figures which are the best in Europe by miles. Irelands Exports are down 3% The next nearest is Poland at -9%, the rest are all in minus double figures.

Ok Its true that Dell moved to Poland but the metric evidence suggests that our major problem is the lack of domestic demand in the economy.

How will wage cuts help this?

If Ireland tries to compete on wages of less well off country's we will be starting on a dangerous spiral of contracting demand in the domestic economy
BTW at what point shall we stop? When the industrial wage is similar to that of China?
Some of the best run economies in Europe have high average wages The Nordics Swiss Lux and Austria.

alphamale 1

What needs to be done is to encourage more people to shop local and not up in Ennsikillen and strabane. We all have a part to play in getting ourselves out of the recession. The government needs to do their bit.

Vat should be cut to 18.5 % as the cut in rate should stimulate people to start buying and will offset loss in taxes due to reducing rates

Hasschu

In Ireland the more things change the more they stay the same. From 1922 to 1973 give or take a few years we had a highly protectionist and poverty stricken economy. Manufacturing lost its protection as did some service industries but we still have little groups with a heightened sense of entitlement who have no reservations about strangling the economy. The government acts as if it did not exist and nobody from gov't or opposition voiced an opinion as to what would be a reasonable increase or decrease. A freeze would be a reasonable compromise. It was not easy to pull ourselves out of of poverty but it will be much easier to slide back down the slippery slope we just ascended. If we escape the inevitable results of absentee gov't we will be damn lucky.