Wayne Dohertys murder

P.C.

I have not read this whole thread, but I do have a question:

Why did so many people vote to have the death sentence abolished back in 2001?

I am not saying that it needs to be used, but now that it is no longer an option...
the threat of using it is also gone.
You could have sentenced a person to death, and then left them in prison for life.

Now, they get sentenced to life, and are out in 10 to 12 years. :eek::mad:

thelordofcheese

johnny_knoxvile wrote: »

My dear boy, I would never attempt such skulduggery...

You are of course, entirely correct, it was far too crass to be even called an attempt.

Ajos wrote: »

I believe that's his point. Of course he wouldn't be. Nor would I, or anybody else. That's precisely why the victim's family and friends don't and shouldn't have any part in the process of dispensing justice. Justice by definition is impartial. It is not about revenge.

cheers ajos, you're spot on.

I know i've done things in the heat of the moment that are, in hindsight, fucking stupid. everyone has. it human nature.

I'd hate for the Justice system to be influenced by the same kind of boneheaded rage, it's a recipe for disaster.

stekelly wrote:

Did those better men fix the world yet?

Not fix, because that's a stupid idea.
But you could make a good case for them having made the world a better place.

dfx-

Some great posts in amongst the left wing nonsense

gurramok wrote: »

Death penalty for joyriders who seriously injure/kill after the event.

To stop them on the streets screeching around, if they fail to heal warnings, shoot them. Those who heal warnings and stop, serious prison sentences.

I want our kids to be able to play safely on the streets, thats my leaning.


http://www.praguepost.com/print/1584-lax-laws-spur-car-theft.html

Czech Rep has 10 times the rate of Germany, 1800 cars stolen in Germany so far this year.http://www.praguepost.com/print/1584-lax-laws-spur-car-theft.html

Irish stats were 12,000-13,000 a year, now nearly 9,000. i make thats 2.5 times the German rate
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/boyracers-replace-joyriding-car-thieves-1379086.html

Its obvious the Germans are doing something right and that is the deterrent.

It seems this passed by most...very interesting..

Also going by some posts, they could stand by the killer as he pulls the trigger and still say "there's a due process to go through to determine if he's guilty".

Melaniemeep

seamus wrote: »

As time goes on, we can see them getting cockier and cockier and killing people for no reason. They will fnck up soon enough and kill someone who the entire community loves and the community will throw them to the dogs.

This has now happened, I am originally from Hartstown having moved out of the area 4 years ago. The Doherty family have always been very well respected and liked within the community and Waynes death is a shock to all. We had been friends and although I hadn't really seen him since leaving Hartstown it is devastating to hear of his death and how it happened. He really was a much liked man in the area and one of the most decent people you could come across. As stated in the papers he was not known by police and was somebody that the younger community looked up to. He would go out of his way to help people out and keep trouble from taking place, as his terrible death reflects. The whole Hartstown community along with the rest of our country have been outraged and deeply saddened at this senseless and tragic murder and soon enough whoever is hiding the thugs involved will come to realise what they are doing and how it is no longer acceptable. May the fact that his death has highlighted the major problems within our little island and raised many questions to our government and to all of us as to how we are going to deal with this growing gang crime be of some sort of comfort to his family. My deepest sympathies go out to his family and friends and the rest of the shocked community. And I also extend my utmost respect to his father for his brave words of encouragement to take back control and order in our neighbour hoods not through violence and retaliation but by not being afraid to name these mindless thugs trying to take over and turn them in.

Smyth

It's frightening to read some of the comments here.
The solution lies in the justice system, not in the holster of a garda.

For short swift "justice" (read fear), see Salem witch trials.

It didn't end well there...

tbh

An Fear Aniar wrote: »

Principles.

If you're going to let Irish society go to the dogs because of them, at least spell them correctly.

.

tbh wrote: »

I just got it. I'm appalled at myself:) my apologies.

The principal is your pal. I meant, of course, principles.

:rolleyes:

Fink Goddie

RIP_Wayne wrote: »

You just spoke my mind. I don't know how anyone can actually be standing up for people like these murdering scumbags - These people murdered someone, why do you think they have rights. The person who done this was given the oppertunity to come forward to the gardai but he chose to deny this 'right' and go on the run. But I suppose it is his right to do that too?!
I pray to god he is caught soon and I pray to god they throw the key away!!!!!!

I totally agree, as long as we have people like that there'll be no justice for the innocent victims.

Fink Goddie

Keith C wrote: »

Hope your as chilled out if it happens your child or your parent etc...

Exactly the point i made earlier, and these are the very people that wouldnt be.

Puddleduck

I would agree with the death penalty but only for extreme cases ie serial murderers that have admitted to their crimes.

I think the deterrant should be prison. If caught the sentancing should be done quickly, none of this arsing round for months and months. Prison shouldnt be the cushy number it is now. It should be hard. Visits should be kept to the bare minimum if any for serious offenders. There should be no luxuries. Someone who commits murder shouldnt be able to go somewhere to get a 5 star chef cooking breakfast, lunch and dinner. No chill out rooms, no playstations, nothing. Prison guards should have more rights than those they are guarding.

Id also arm the Gardai, bullets are bullets regardless of what they are fired from. I agree with another poster that said if you are known to the gardai you should be put into detention.

A serious overhaul of the justice system is needed. Right now the one we have is failing.

walshb

Arming the gardai is not necessary to tackle these scum. It's not like they
are roaming the streets with guns shooting and maiming. They are selecting
their targets, getting their guns, killing and fleeing. What is needed
is proper garda investigation, surveillance, tough sentences on conviction.
Clamping down and introducing mandatory 30 year sentences if
convicted of aggravated crime. No ifs, buts, you are found guilty
of a serious crime, 30 years minimum!

The current sentences are in no way a deterrent against
serious crime. Why do we have so much drug dealing here?

It is because the dealers and importers know that if caught and
convicted, they are likely to receive a pissy jail term.

How about a 30 year term if convicted of importing/dealing Class A
drugs, 25 years for Class B and 10 years for Class C. Mandatory and minimum!

Now, should a person plead guilty and not fight
the charge, there should maybe be grounds for
a 25 percent reduction in the sentence.

So, 30 becomes 25 and 20 becomes 15 and so on
They are still harsh and at least it will send the clear
message to anyone who is thinking about either dealing
or importing drugs to Ireland.

As it stands, the reward for dealing is a lot more inviting
than the punishment to NOT

bernardo mac

Leading lawyers and solicitors who object to the new anti gang legislation do not live in areas close to where criminal gangs operate.These objectors say the new laws will bring shame upon our nation before International Courts of Human Rights.Better be shamed than dead;better risk embarrassment than be humiliated and condemned to exist on a daily basis,in imminent danger of being shot, assaulted,firebombed if you object to criminal activity,if you try to protect your family or a neighbour,if you tell the Gardai about what's going on.The Gardai are already stretched and cannot provide adequate protection and security.Yes,fully armed state protection is needed in some areas where lawyers and solicitors do not reside.The majority of people living in or near "gangland" cannot afford to move to a secure suburb;unless, one is in fact exceptionally and inexplicably well off.If one is feared, and associates with a rough element one will stay.And if you are one of these privileged people,last mentioned, and in danger of being arrested by the Gardai,you can afford to hire the best legal mind,or know how to seek free legal aid to protect your Human Rights.This is tragic,this country is in economic recession but is really in a much deeper crisis of public trust and confidence in our courts and laws to protect the law abiding citizen.

tbh

Puddleduck wrote: »

I would agree with the death penalty but only for extreme cases ie serial murderers that have admitted to their crimes.

I understand your logic, but why would anyone admit to their crime if they knew they were going to be executed?

smelltheglove

I am not sure about arming the gardai, maybe they should be armed. Put it this way, the man who was in trouble did not have faith in the gardai to protect him but he had faith in Wayne........ doesnt that sum it up really, what could the gards have done if tehy were there when these guys turned up to shoot and kill? Maybe Wayne would not have been shot but one of the Gards would have.

If Gardai were present with guns however it may have been different. All these things are hindsight though and nothing will bring back Wayne but if proper adjustments are made this may prevent another family going through this pain.

Puddleduck

tbh wrote: »

I understand your logic, but why would anyone admit to their crime if they knew they were going to be executed?

Serial killers generally are sick in the head. Some of them are proud of their killings. I suppose by extension you could say if caught with the victims body or whatever. Real solid evidence.

thelordofcheese

Fink Goddie wrote: »

Exactly the point i made earlier, and these are the very people that wouldnt be.

And, if you'd be paying attention, the point was totally missed by you earlier.

thelordofcheese

Fink Goddie wrote: »

I totally agree, as long as we have people like that there'll be no justice for the innocent victims.

you keep using that word, i do not think it means what you think it means.

Fink Goddie

thelordofcheese wrote: »

And, if you'd be paying attention, the point was totally missed by you earlier.

Nope i made the point earlier and then it was made again.
I see your posts are still in favour of the scumbags, still pleading for their rights.

Fink Goddie

thelordofcheese wrote: »

you keep using that word, i do not think it means what you think it means.

You havent shown any examples of Justice that matches up to the gravity of the crime.

Your posts are pro scum!

Pace2008

Fink Goddie wrote: »

Nope i made the point earlier and then it was made again.
I see your posts are still in favour of the scumbags, still pleading for their rights.

And you're still creating these false dilemmas, suggesting that anyone who's in favour of due process and against the death penalty is somehow condoning the actions of these people. Based on your comments in this thread it seems apparent that you have no idea how to construct an argument and don't have the ability to debate this topic.

Using your broken logic I can deduce that since you believe that one waives their human rights by committing the act of murder, you are against human rights and by extension against humanity itself.

thelordofcheese

Fink Goddie wrote: »

Nope i made the point earlier and then it was made again.
I see your posts are still in favour of the scumbags, still pleading for their rights.

And you stunningly missed the point, both of you.

I can't promise i'd be calm if someone in my family was murdered, and i acknowledge that i'd likely do something stupid, given the oppertunity.

the point, you continue to miss (and it's one of many. you're dodging these things like neo) is that i want the law of the land to protect it's citizens from my rage and the poor decision making it would result in.
IF i were the victim i'd be in no position to render a fair judgement because i'd be angry.
It's a retarded idea to let people decide the fate of those that have wronged them, it's WHY we have a justice system in the first place.

Fink Goddie wrote: »

You havent shown any examples of Justice that matches up to the gravity of the crime.

Your posts are pro scum!

if that's how you like to paint me, go ahead. I make no appologies. for believeing that everybody has basic immuatble rights, if that makes me "pro-scum" to you then that's cool.
I don't really give your opinion much weight.
Because the bit you forget in your hissy fit of moral outrage and outright lack of reasoning is the rights i want 'scum' to have are the same rights i want you to have.

You can't strip someone of their rights because your angry and want a simple solution, because if you do that you also remove your own
No due process for scum, no due process for you.

Is this becoming clear or do i need to put on a puppet show?

Fink Goddie

Pace2008 wrote: »

And you're still creating these false dilemmas, suggesting that anyone who's in favour of due process and against the death penalty is somehow condoning the actions of these people. You have no idea how to construct an argument and don't have the ability to debate this topic.

Using your broken logic I can deduce that since you believe that one waives their human rights by committing the act of murder, you are against human rights and by extension against humanity itself.

Are you targeting the poster and not the posts, i think you are, what did Uncle Terry say about that earlier!!!

Pleading for the rights of scumbags and not coming up with anything constructive to in any way compensate the victims of the crime is as bad as condoning the crime.

Yes raping and murdering a little innocent child for example waives your human rights, a person that does that is an animal and should be treated like one.

thelordofcheese

Fink Goddie wrote: »

Pleading for the rights of scumbags and not coming up with anything constructive to in any way compensate the victims of the crime is as bad as condoning the crime.

False dichotomy.
And utter bullshit.

Mainly because your bar for a "constructive way" only amounts to agreeing with you. Remember the "us and them" thing i talked about earlier, this is an even worse example.
And that shit don't fly.

Fink Goddie wrote: »

Yes raping and murdering a little innocent child for example waives your human rights, a person that does that is an animal and should be treated like one.

no it doesn't. Infact that's the time their rights are most important, so we can punish them without becoming like them in terms of cruelty and inhumanity.
if we didn't how are we any better than they?

Pace2008

Fink Goddie wrote: »

Are you targeting the poster and not the posts, i think you are, what did Uncle Terry say about that earlier!!!

Edited as it may have come across as a personal attack.

Although I don't see how your cries of 'pro-scumbag!' are in any way constructive.

Fink Goddie

thelordofcheese wrote: »

And you stunningly missed the point, both of you.

I can't promise i'd be calm if someone in my family was murdered, and i acknowledge that i'd likely do something stupid, given the oppertunity.

the point, you continue to miss (and it's one of many. you're dodging these things like neo) is that i want the law of the land to protect it's citizens from my rage and the poor decision making it would result in.
IF i were the victim i'd be in no position to render a fair judgement because i'd be angry.
It's a retarded idea to let people decide the fate of those that have wronged them, it's WHY we have a justice system in the first place.




if that's how you like to paint me, go ahead. I make no appologies. for believeing that everybody has basic immuatble rights, if that makes me "pro-scum" to you then that's cool.
I don't really give your opinion much weight.
Because the bit you forget in your hissy fit of moral outrage and outright lack of reasoning is the rights i want 'scum' to have are the same rights i want you to have.

You can't strip someone of their rights because your angry and want a simple solution, because if you do that you also remove your own
No due process for scum, no due process for you.

Is this becoming clear or do i need to put on a puppet show?

But who's protecting the victims of the scumbags??
Why should scum have the same rights i have, they should lose those rights when they take away an innocent persons rights, the state should take them away by the death penalty and if the family wish, they should implement the death penalty in whichever way they want.
Our justice system is not working at the moment.

So about that muppet puppet show, should be interesting. Lord of puppets!

Fink Goddie

Pace2008 wrote: »

Edited as it may have come across as a personal attack.

Although I don't see how your cries of 'pro-scumbag!' are in any way constructive.

Neither are personal attacks xxx

Ziggurat

Fink Goddie wrote: »

Yes raping and murdering a little innocent child for example waives your human rights, a person that does that is an animal and should be treated like one.

Says who? You?

Fink Goddie wrote: »

But who's protecting the victims of the scumbags??

Who do you think?

Why should scum have the same rights i have, they should lose those rights when they take away an innocent persons rights,

I'm going to go out on a limb here and ask, why? Give me a reasonable argument why that should be the case.

the state should take them away by the death penalty and if the family wish, they should implement the death penalty in whichever way they want.

Ah, so you want revenge, not justice.

Our justice system is not working at the moment.

See above.

Fink Goddie

thelordofcheese wrote: »

False dichotomy.
And utter bullshit.

Mainly because your bar for a "constructive way" only amounts to agreeing with you. Remember the "us and them" thing i talked about earlier, this is an even worse example.
And that shit don't fly.




no it doesn't. Infact that's the time their rights are most important, so we can punish them without becoming like them in terms of cruelty and inhumanity.
if we didn't how are we any better than they?

And the rights of the child????

Well i can see the difference between a person who rapes and murders a child and someone who sentences that evil person to death to protect other innocent children and society, and to give peace of mind to the family that the monster that killed their child is gone for good.

Can you not spot the difference. This is easier than a game of where's Wally fellas, its not hard!

thelordofcheese

Fink Goddie wrote: »

But who's protecting the victims of the scumbags??

The police. I know you don't believe it, but that's because you're also convinced we're in a state of anarchy. Your grip on events is somewhat less than tight, to put it mildly.


I think you're under the misguided impression that if we removed the rights of 'scum' and had the death penality then we'd be living in some sort of crime free paradise.
This wouldn't be the case and you need only look to any nation (including singapore, before you start) to see this.

Fink Goddie wrote: »

Why should scum have the same rights i have, they should lose those rights when they take away an innocent persons rights, the state should take them away by the death penalty and if the family wish, they should implement the death penalty in whichever way they want.

No, for the last fucking time no. The family should have no say. none what so ever.
This has been explained to you a thousand times, so kindly come up with a reason beyond your childish view of revenge.

Fink Goddie wrote: »

Our justice system is not working at the moment.

yes it is. You're just being a sensationalist whiner now.

tbh

tbh wrote: »

It's not about who makes the law. It's about who sets out the punishment. For example, lets say you were done speeding, 5K over the limit. And your case was heard by a judge who, two days before, had his dog killed by someone driving a similar car to you who was also going 5K over the limit. Your solicitor comes to you five minutes before your case is due to be heard. He says "you can, if you want, request another judge, or you can stick with this one".

Answer me honestly, what would you do?

just wondering if you saw this, fink.

Fink Goddie

Ziggurat wrote: »

Says who? You?



Who do you think?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and ask, why? Give me a reasonable argument why that should be the case.

Ah, so you want revenge, not justice.

See above.

So you dont agree that a person who murders and rapes a child is acting like an animal, no??
They're rights should be taken away because they took the rights of an inocent child away and are a danger to society.

Every child has the right to play on the street and not be in danger, so to satisfy the rights of the majority we'd be taking away the rights of one person.

There's your reasonable argument!

Fink Goddie

thelordofcheese wrote: »

The police. I know you don't believe it, but that's because you're also convinced we're in a state of anarchy. Your grip on events is somewhat less than tight, to put it mildly.


I think you're under the misguided impression that if we removed the rights of 'scum' and had the death penality then we'd be living in some sort of crime free paradise.
This wouldn't be the case and you need only look to any nation (including singapore, before you start) to see this.





No, for the last fucking time no. The family should have no say. none what so ever.
This has been explained to you a thousand times, so kindly come up with a reason beyond your childish view of revenge.




yes it is. You're just being a sensationalist whiner now.

Ah are you getting a little vexed Lord??? Are my arguments too good for you to handle. calm down my friend.

Singapore has a very low crime rate!!! your point??

Fink Goddie

tbh wrote: »

just wondering if you saw this, fink.

Oh here's the guy that thinks the crime is irrelavant again, crimes against AH first, now we have speeding.
We're talking about murder here.

thelordofcheese

Fink Goddie wrote: »

And the rights of the child????

Well i can see the difference between a person who rapes and murders a child and someone who sentences that evil person to death to protect other innocent children and society, and to give peace of mind to the family that the monster that killed their child is gone for good.

Can you not spot the difference. This is easier than a game of where's Wally fellas, its not hard!

I'm done here. We're arguing in circles and your posts are becoming more and more like reading the daily mail.

I don't pay for that lowest common denominator hysteria and bull****, i'm certainly not wasting my time with someone who can't post without screaming "think of the children" inbetween mocing the goalposts, making appeals to fear and pretending that anyone who can see the flaws in every one of your ideas is some kind of monster.

EVERYTHING you've said on this thread is wrong, without exception. Your opinions are without merit or value.

Ziggurat

Fink Goddie wrote: »

So you dont agree that a person who murders and rapes a child is acting like an animal, no??

Acting, perhaps. But if I quack does that make me a duck?

They're rights should be taken away because they took the rights of an inocent child away and are a danger to society.

So you can say for sure they will re-offend?

Every child has the right to play on the street and not be in danger, so too satisfy the rights of the majority we'd be taking away the rights of one person.

There's your reasonable argument!

While prison itself is a case of the state abrogating certain rights (albeit temporarily) this is not done simply on the fear of one person or a group of people.
Certainly, criminals are entitled to repent for their crimes, turn themselves around and become productive members of society - that should be the goal of any justice system.

Another question, though. When you say their rights should be revoked, what rights are you talking about? All or just some.

tbh

Fink Goddie wrote: »

Oh here's the guy that thinks the crime is irrelavant again, crimes against AH first, now we have speeding.
We're talking about murder here.

can you please just answer the question?

edit: actually, LOC is right. Forget it.

Fink Goddie

thelordofcheese wrote: »

I'm done here. We're arguing in circles and your posts are becoming more and more like reading the daily mail.

I don't pay for that lowest common denominator hysteria and bull****, i'm certainly not wasting my time with someone who can't post without screaming "think of the children" inbetween mocing the goalposts, making appeals to fear and pretending that anyone who can see the flaws in every one of your ideas is some kind of monster.

EVERYTHING you've said on this thread is wrong, without exception. Your opinions are without merit or value.

So you're giving up, so i won the argument.
Good stuff, knew i was right.

What about Singapore, they have a very low crime rate, thats not WRONG, its a fact.

Better luck next time anyway Lord!

Fink Goddie

thelordofcheese wrote: »

I'm done here. We're arguing in circles and your posts are becoming more and more like reading the daily mail.

I don't pay for that lowest common denominator hysteria and bull****, i'm certainly not wasting my time with someone who can't post without screaming "think of the children" inbetween mocing the goalposts, making appeals to fear and pretending that anyone who can see the flaws in every one of your ideas is some kind of monster.

EVERYTHING you've said on this thread is wrong, without exception. Your opinions are without merit or value.

OH and this is a personal attack, attack the post not the poster.
Where's uncle Terry??

tbh

Fink Goddie wrote: »

So you're giving up, so i won the argument.
Good stuff, knew i was right.

This is what I hate most about boards. You actually believe that. You come into a thread with a pov and your aim isn't to develop it, it's to defend it at all costs. I have to say, people like you are a cancer on this site, and the worst thing is, you couldn't give a crap.. and if I get banned for that comment, it'll be worth it.

IvyTheTerrible

Fink Goddie wrote: »

So you're giving up, so i won the argument.
Good stuff, knew i was right.

What about Singapore, they have a very low crime rate, thats not WRONG, its a fact.

Better luck next time anyway Lord!

It's not an argument if you don't rebut the points the other people made...

thelordofcheese

Fink Goddie wrote: »

So you're giving up, so i won the argument.
Good stuff, knew i was right.

No, you weren't, but it's cute that you think so. Have fun with that.

Also - because i'm really a nice guy logical fallacies.
READ IT, AND STOP USING THEM.

You'll be a better person.

Fink Goddie

Ziggurat wrote: »

Acting, perhaps. But if I quack does that make me a duck?

So you can say for sure they will re-offend?

While prison itself is a case of the state abrogating certain rights (albeit temporarily) this is not done simply on the fear of one person or a group of people.
Certainly, criminals are entitled to repent for their crimes, turn themselves around and become productive members of society - that should be the goal of any justice system.

Another question, though. When you say their rights should be revoked, what rights are you talking about? All or just some.

Yes and i said they were ACTING like animals so should be treated LIKE aniamls.

Most do reoffend, question is would you risk your child on the off chance that they woudnt reoffend???..............didnt think so.

Productive members of society, could you have seen Rosemary of Fred West becoming productive members of society???

Eh the death penalty kind of takes away all rights dont you think because they stop breathing

Terry

tbh wrote: »

This is what I hate most about boards. You actually believe that. You come into a thread with a pov and your aim isn't to develop it, it's to defend it at all costs. I have to say, people like you are a cancer on this site, and the worst thing is, you couldn't give a crap.. and if I get banned for that comment, it'll be worth it.

Banned.

Fink Goddie, do not post in this thread again or I will ban you.

Fink Goddie

tbh wrote: »

can you please just answer the question?

edit: actually, LOC is right. Forget it.

Ah dont tell me you've given up too. :D
Hard luck, get better arguments next time

Sorry timing difference, didnt see Terry's post!!!!

Terry

Fink Goddie wrote: »

OH and this is a personal attack, attack the post not the poster.
Where's uncle Terry??

He attacked your opinions, not you personally.
If you have a problem with a post, then report it.

Pace2008

thelordofcheese wrote: »

No, you weren't, but it's cute that you think so. Have fun with that.

Also - because i'm really a nice guy logical fallacies.
READ IT, AND STOP USING THEM.

You'll be a better person.

I was actually playing bingo with this throughout the thread. It's been a slow week at work

Anyway, seems like everyone's bailing. Condolences to Wayne Doherty's family.

smelltheglove

Maybe it is time this thread came to an end, where is bickering going to get anyone? Can we not remember Wayne with respect instead of using his death to have an argument.

An Fear Aniar

thelordofcheese wrote: »

if that's how you like to paint me, go ahead. I make no appologies. for believeing that everybody has basic immuatble rights, if that makes me "pro-scum" to you then that's cool.

Rights aren't immutable, whatever gave you that idea? They're a human construct, a political construct, not some law of nature.

We already deprive certain people of their rights by locking them up - except not for long enough in many cases....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8073659.stm

Earlier, Sonnex had tied up and threatened a couple, and could have been returned to jail, but he was given a verbal warning by his probation officer rather than being the subject of a review.

.

irisheddie

I buried you today why does it hurt so much,luv u wayne sensless totally :(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(sensless:(:(:(:(:(:(:(

utick

thelordofcheese wrote: »

The police. I know you don't believe it, but that's because you're also convinced we're in a state of anarchy. Your grip on events is somewhat less than tight, to put it mildly.


.

you may not realise it but, some places are not too far from anarchy.

delmage park is a housing estate in moyross with about 120 occupied houses

http://www.limerickblogger.ie/blog/2006/11/diary-of-a-delmage-park-resident

this is a diary a resident has made detailing shootings and petrol bombs that happened over about a six month period in their estate, if you dont think anarchy exists in some parts of ireland i suggest you read this diary