motorised valves for heating radiators

russki

Hi Guys!

I'm looking for motorised valves that would be installed on each radiator and controlled by temperature sensor. The idea is to have a temperature sensor in each room and the sensor would control the valve on the radiator in that room, so I can set temperature for each room rather than upstairs/downstairs like zone controls would do.

Would anybody know if that kind of valve exist? I'm talking to one of the combi boiler installers and they tell me that they haven't come across this thing. The only thing they have to offer is zoning, but I'm after more precise heating :-).

Joey the lips

You have too much money

a simpler way to do it is with a trv manual valve

i dont know of any motorised rad valves sorry

russki

Joey the lips wrote: »

You have too much money

You know the saying: "We are not that rich to buy cheap things "

In fact I don't see why it should be expensive in the first place. All you need is the temperature sensor and a valve with moto. I know we are in Ireland where everything costs as much as a space mission to Mars, but I think it's about time it may change to more realistic prices and installers may just start changing their attitude too :rolleyes:.

I can do it with thermostats on the radiators, but why not to make one more step and make it self contained, when you don't have to go and adjust the valves on the radiators? Set the temperature once on the device that can actually measure it and forget about the rest.

Joey the lips

Well then there you go. There is your market off you pop. just consider 2 things


Your first call is The building regualatuions dept

TRV's do the same effective job

A temperature state on the landing and hall linked to Zone valves can do the same thing

The stat can actually be moved to one room if you like

System link actually invented a system zone device which spreads hot water equally around rads. It ensures the temperature is the same in them all. This is a manual device but guess what, not many are sold, why cause plumbers consider them overkill.

They tend to be fitted to underfloor heating or in large mansions where money is not an issue

darcy.jonny

to install motorised valved an each rad with be usless as well as very expensive and destructive (electrial work )

if your doing a refurbishment . the effective way to have each room regulated would be to have each flow and return on every radiator piped direct back to a hotpress , boiler , etc. and connect then to a manifold with multiple motorised valves . each of which would be wired back to a digital room thermostat .

(very simular to a multi zone underfloor heating system )

trying to use motorised valves direct on the radiator would leed to all sorts of problems , trowing of the balance of the heating syatem for example

youtheman

Russki,

I think you're missing one vital fact. You can get a motorised valve to do anything you want, but you still need to give a signal to the boiler to start stop. I've seen four zone controllers (you can get one, two or three zone, the biggest I've seen is four zone), this would be for for hot water, upstairs, downstairs and one other zone. But then you have to wire all the thermostats back to the controller, and the zone valves to the controller, and then from the controller to the boiler.

They you come to programming the controller, and you'd want a degree is astro physics just to be able to do it.

As advised previously, TRVs are the way to go.

darcy.jonny

ive installed seperate thermostaty controled systems in many houses trust me go to hvac they can get manifolds with up to 20 ports on them if you want .

the wiring isnt a problem for any electrician that ive ever got to do it . all the motorised heads are removable anyway so if one or two are put on wrong its an easy fix.

its a great way to control a system in a large house with big rooms , now a standard house would be a complete waste of time

russki

youtheman wrote: »

Russki,

I think you're missing one vital fact. You can get a motorised valve to do anything you want, but you still need to give a signal to the boiler to start stop.

<skipped>

As advised previously, TRVs are the way to go.

How do the TRVs send the signal to the boiler?

knx

Russki,

Are you building, renovating or looking to fit this into an existing house. I have done something similar to what you are after in a house that I am renovating but used an underfloor heating manifold as already suggested. However as I say I was renovating so separate feeds to all radiators was no problem. I've linked it to a solid fuel and an oil boiler.

PeteHeat

Hi,

There are systems available where you can fit a battery powered motorised head on the existing TRV.

This is radio controlled by an individual wall stat in each room, the wall stat can work alone or can also be linked to a central controller to call the boiler on.

We are looking at importing them, the one issue I see is the cost which would be over €120.00 per room, while they do increase efficiency and comfort levels on a room by room basis the pay back would be very long considering the cost of a standard TRV.

As posted by darcy.jonny if you are fitting a new system the most cost efficient way would be to use a manifold with the actuators controlled from each room in much the same way as underfloor heating.

I would go further and say such systems should be the standard heating controls in all new homes as they are very efficient.

.

russki

PeteHeat wrote: »

We are looking at importing them, the one issue I see is the cost which would be over €120.00 per room, while they do increase efficiency and comfort levels on a room by room basis the pay back would be very long considering the cost of a standard TRV.

I was quoted €50 per TRV last week. Given that I don't see €120 as too much to ask, if the 50 quid price is a real one and not a rip off (as I truly suspect it is). :rolleyes:

On a serious note, would you PM me, when you get the devices in, so I can have a look. Very interesting thing.

russki

knx wrote: »

Are you building, renovating or looking to fit this into an existing house.

Fitting into existing one, so I'm a bit restricted to what I can do. Although, I'd like to renovate the floors upstairs soon (fingers crossed) and then the extra pipework would not be a problem.

Joey the lips

russki wrote: »

How do the TRVs send the signal to the boiler?

They dont, thats his point thats why you use TRV's or else you will have a mile of wireing to lay with the motorised valves which is daft.

10-10-20

Russki, I looked at this in the past too.
There is a Honeywell system available which does this.
http://www.cm-zone.com/
My only concern would be the lifetime on the batteries in the TRV's.

After that, the ROI isn't massive unless you are upgrading a system which has had no control over it. But all the same, it's the way the systems should have been designed in the first place!

PeteHeat

Hi,

We have a CMC system being installed next week, it takes a well informed (some would say brave) customer to agree to the installation of a system that is new to us and this country.

We have every confidence that it will work based on the manufacturers re-assurances and the fact that they are working with us tweaking a few minor issues based on questions we asked.

I will post back and let you know how it performs, this is not advertising as Honeywell products are widely available, sadly they are not exclusive to us.

.

Stratocaster

I am not convinced TRV'S actually work and I would advise against installing them. For a TRV to work correctly the radiator must be unblocked from curtains, beds, furniture, presses, child's toy boxes etc, the list of obstacles is endless. I feel they are another "spend more" "save more" marketing gimmic.

A TRV is designed to reduce the radiators flow should the room heat up above the TRV setting. I don't believe you can take a accurate reading of a room temperature from a location 4" to 8" off the floor, also you have these obstacles to consider. In a ideal situation they could possibly work, no obstacles and away from opening doors but how many of your radiators are located in this situation.

The main reason why I don't seem them fit for purpose, I think the coldest place in a room is located 4" to 8" off the floor directly at the radiator. A radiator works on convection currents. Hot air rises from the radiator, then as it cools it falls to the floor and returns to the radiator and the convection process is repeated. If you can understand this process you'll see how a TRV could actually cause you to use more energy.

This is just how I see it, I could be wrong but the TRV in my room is working 100% but no matter how low I set it, I can never keep the room temperature down.

The only realistic way to control a rooms temperature is to have a dedicated boiler flow and return piped to a manifold with a bypass, from the manifold each radiator must be piped individually and controlled by room thermostats. This type of system is costly to install as there is a lot of electrical work and a lot of extra pipe work, fittings, motorized valves and so on. The cost is too much compared to the savings you will actually make. There is plenty of these type of systems out there and the majority of people I find with these systems installed cant control them correctly and they end up paying a lot of money for the installation and still have large heating bills.

Use your body as a thermostat and your hand as a control, its free and it works.

Xennon

There are TRVs with remote temp sensing heads. Ive no idea how well they work. I have one that I keep meaning to stick in a room to test.

BaZmO*

Xennon wrote: »

There are TRVs with remote temp sensing heads. Ive no idea how well they work. I have one that I keep meaning to stick in a room to test.

Having read through the thread I was just about to post remote sensors.

They'd be the next best thing to use after a central manifold set-up. A central manifold would be used in an Underfloor Heating setup.

Using motorised valves on each rad would be an extreme and expensive measure to take.

Stratocaster

Xennon wrote: »

There are TRVs with remote temp sensing heads. Ive no idea how well they work. I have one that I keep meaning to stick in a room to test.

Have seen those also and the sensor leads only a few feet long if even, sill cant be located in a suitable place so again just a gimmic to me.

If you read my post above I am not the only person who doubts TRVs and the makers know this. They introduced the remote sensor to try and solve the inaccurate reading a typical TRV gives.

I don't think TRV's are a gimmick, when they first came out they were fitted as a add on to a systems which already had a room thermostat and a two port fitted, TRV's fitted in this manor give more control than a normal rad valve and the room stat controls the overall temperature of the house, i fully agree that they are not the most precise heating controls and i would never use them to control the whole house temperature which is a work practice i didn't come across until i started working in Ireland, as a Boiler technician when i have advised TRV's to be fitted to help with installation faults they have not failed to improve the situation( touch wood) and i didn't think twice about fitting them in my own house to save money, so in short they ain't as good as some people say and they ain't as bad as some people say:D, Gary

Zilog

I've been looking at the following TRV's:
Oventrop TRV with remote control. BTW I have no affiliation with this company!

The sensing and adjustment head is connected to the valve by a capillary tube, essentially a hollow pipe, and available in lengths up to 10m. The valve head can be disassembled so the tube can be fed through conduit for hidden installation. Any remaining tube is wound around the back of the remote control.

Have a real life sample, feels quite solid and should work with most radiators. I am a little familiar with commercial heating controls, had been looking at using electric actuators (valve heads) with remote thermostat, until I discovered these. Big plus from my point of view is that they do not require any power supply.

Stratocaster

Just had a look at the link Zilog. As always with TRVs there is factors to consider. Its the first time I've seen something like that available to control the heat source from up to 10mtr away but look at the size of the control that connects to the heat source. Also stated is suitable for hidden radiators.

Cant see them being a success although the ideas great should it work accurately.