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Future University Students Interested in Politics
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How has the system failed? We've just come to the end of a huge economic boom... We're hardly a welfare state because in the last few months more people have signed on. Recessions happen. No country can sustain perpetual economic growth.
I'm in favour of the LC. It doesn't determine your life - you can repeat it as many times as you like. The excess pressure comes from the media hype, which I think should be regulated somewhat. And I think our primary schools are excellent. Near to useless my ass. As a counter to what MrPirate said, my mother was a primary teacher and taught in the US for 5 years. She does not look upon the US system favourably. For example, according to her, the level of maths taught in US schools is much lower than here.
I agree recessions do happen, but our is much worse than the rest of the world? why would this be so? true you can blame it on cowen and FF only, but I dont remember the opposition doing much to oppose hi crazy budgetary policy either. The ministers in various departments don't even know what what they are doing and only use ministries as part of their political career growth-thats why the system as it stand right now is not working.
We are very close to welfare state. I'm not talking about people being on the dole. I'm talking about spending 20 bn euro on welfare, and we spent close to this before the recession as well. The system has been abused by those 4-5% of population that refused to get a job and would rather stay at home because it was just more luxurious that way. And with the welfare system we have now many people fall into the welfare trap, when getting a job actually brings them less money home than social welfare from the state.
Argument that you can repeat the LC is not one I would be putting too much weight on. Can you imagine repeating sixth year yet again? Either you'll be stressed out by having to repeat it and knowing you need to do better of you'll take the 'take it easy' approach as you'll feel you know everything. Even more if something happens during the LC examinations and you cant complete them, repeating is your only option which is more than unfair.
I cant argue on the basis of the US maths level, but being able to do just basic fractions after six years of primary school here in ireland is much more then an embarrassment, when in most of the other eu countries you have children at that age solving equations. Also the primary school here aims only to teach irish, maths and english. Maths we've discussed, irish...well lets say that irish is a sole issue that neither primary or secondary schools can address it seems and english? well the only thing you learn in those 6 years is spelling of words. That seems like a waste of time in my opinion0 -
wtf? Did you even attend primary school here??
Primary school maths curriculum:
http://www.curriculumonline.ie/en/Primary_School_Curriculum/Mathematics/Mathematics_Curriculum/Algebra is formally recognised at all levels and covers patterns, sequences, number sentences, directed numbers, rules and properties, variables and equations.
Primary school English curriculum:
http://www.curriculumonline.ie/en/Primary_School_Curriculum/Language/English/English_Curriculum/Aims
The aims of the English language curriculum are to
* promote positive attitudes and develop an appreciation of the value of language spoken, read and written
* create, foster and maintain the child's interest in expression and communication
* develop the child's ability to engage appropriately in listener-speaker relationships
* develop confidence and competence in listening, speaking, reading and writing
* develop cognitive ability and the capacity to clarify thinking through oral language, writing and reading
* enable the child to read and write independently
* enhance emotional, imaginative and aesthetic development throughoral, reading and writing experiences.
Where the hell did you get the idea that all that's taught in Maths and English is basic fractions and the spelling of words? I certainly was solving equations and writing English essays in primary school.
Also, much more is taught than Maths, English and Irish. History, Geography, Science, Arts and others are taught. Again, a link to the curriculum website:
http://www.curriculumonline.ie/en/Primary_School_Curriculum/0 -
wtf? Did you even attend primary school here??
no i didnt but my brother did and i was helping prepare for primary school at the start.Where the hell did you get the idea that all that's taught in Maths and English is basic fractions and the spelling of words? I certainly was solving equations and writing English essays in primary school.
i just went back to my brother's primary school books and indeed in sixth class he was being taught basic fractions and not equations. The english curriculum was based on a few spelling test and reading a book or two.Also, much more is taught than Maths, English and Irish. History, Geography, Science, Arts and others are taught. Again, a link to the curriculum website:
http://www.curriculumonline.ie/en/Primary_School_Curriculum/
History, geography, science, arts are taught in very little dosage, if any. you basically have one subject that covers it all and does not dedicate any time to any of these subject. also the way the primary education is carried out is that there really are is almost no way of assessing knowledge of these subject(i know maths and english spelling are assessed) which is a major fault of the system.0 -
I was doing summer tests in Geography, History and Science in 4th, 5th and 6th class. I frequently wrote English essays, and yes, I was learning maths beyond basic fractions - equations etc.
If reform of primary education is one of your main policies, and you're looking to make this into a serious movement. I suggest you base your ideas on more than just what your brother told you. I've linked you to the official website for the Irish primary school curriculum. Are you saying the website is lying?0 -
I was doing summer tests in Geography, History and Science in 4th, 5th and 6th class. I frequently wrote English essays, and yes, I was learning maths beyond basic fractions - equations etc.
If reform of primary education is one of your main policies, and you're looking to make this into a serious movement. I suggest you base your ideas on more than just what your brother told you. I've linked you to the official website for the Irish primary school curriculum. Are you saying the website is lying?
then you can count yourself lucky to be doing summer tests in the above subjects at such an early level.
I am not suggesting that the website is lying. I am suggesting that if, indeed, there are such demands on students in place then they are not enforced properly. Plus continuous assessment is much more than a summer test at the end of the year.
However I do see that you are intend on the fact that the primary school system, or in fact any system now in place, is the right one to be using. That is fine, however I must ask myself whether a discussion along the lines of 'i'm right'...'no you're not, i am right' will actually lead us to anywhere. as of now we both stated our arguments and it is clear our positions are solid and will not change based on the arguments produced.0 -
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Where did you get your data on primary schools?
Inspectors visit every school in the country. I don't see why you think they're not enforced....
Surely its helpful to you to have someone point out the holes in your arguments?0 -
Where did you get your data on primary schools?
Inspectors visit every school in the country. I don't see why you think they're not enforced....
Surely its helpful to you to have someone point out the holes in your arguments?
The data as such is all i've heard from my friends, people on forums and from my brother's experience.
Regarding inspectors, we had inspectors coming to our school too and well...let's just say that for that one week the school was the best place on earth and then resumed to its usual routine after the inspectors were gone.
oh yes i'm all for constructive debate, but for the last few post were still just standing firmly on our positions so i wanted to direct the discussion to other points:D0 -
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whadabouchasir wrote: »He's not the only one we did Christmas and summer tests every year in Primary school from first class onwards and we even had spelling tests in senior Infants.
really? that is weird you two are the only people i talked who had such an assessment in primary school. kudos to your schools, i suppose0 -
Mario007, I think you're missing the point being made. While both of you have spoken about your personal experiences (ok, so one was personal and one was a brother, I'll treat them equally*) which seem opposite, only one of you have quoted proper documentation and data backing up your point. This is much, much stronger than personal opinion and hearsay, can't you see this?
I also don't see the difference between your 'experts' suggestion and the current system. The 'expert' is elected by the ruling party which is free to choose any 'expert' they like who may or may not choose a cabinet of 'experts' well disposed towards the current ruling party. What makes it any more apolitical than the current system? I agree people with a bit more qualification and/or experience should be in charge but I don't see how you're system would achieve this.
* ok, so myself and JC went to the same primary school and I know personally that what he says is fact, but I think we can safely ignore that... I also recall doing quadratic equations in primary school, not that that's any stronger than any other hearsay!!!0 -
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To those who say we have enough right-wing politicians around: The Budget Deficit INCREASED during the Boom years. If that yeer idea of right wing policies then ye really have to put more thought into it.
We need a welfare cul.0 -
Mario007, I think you're missing the point being made. While both of you have spoken about your personal experiences (ok, so one was personal and one was a brother, I'll treat them equally*) which seem opposite, only one of you have quoted proper documentation and data backing up your point. This is much, much stronger than personal opinion and hearsay, can't you see this?
I also don't see the difference between your 'experts' suggestion and the current system. The 'expert' is elected by the ruling party which is free to choose any 'expert' they like who may or may not choose a cabinet of 'experts' well disposed towards the current ruling party. What makes it any more apolitical than the current system? I agree people with a bit more qualification and/or experience should be in charge but I don't see how you're system would achieve this.
* ok, so myself and JC went to the same primary school and I know personally that what he says is fact, but I think we can safely ignore that... I also recall doing quadratic equations in primary school, not that that's any stronger than any other hearsay!!!
you have a point. But you see the curriculum is vaguely written that it can be taken up differently in each school. fro example let me quote the math's curriculum:
* Applying and problem-solving
Understanding and recalling
* Communicating and expressing
* Integrating and connecting
* Reasoning
* Implementing
* Understanding and recalling
It also includes a number of strands which outline content that is to be included in the mathematics programme at each level. Each strand includes a number of strand units. Depending on the class level, strands can include
* Early mathematical activities
* Number
* Algebra
* Shape and space
* Measures
* Data
these instructions are nothing like the curriculum at secondary school where the curriculum wants you to have exact facts known. here under 'reasoning' i can understand pretty much whatever I want. same with 'early mathematical activities'. and so we arrive at the problem when one school can have a great teaching staff and be really preparing the students for secondary education and giving them enhance knowledge while the other school can be exactly opposite.
To add a few facts of my own: Ireland spends more time than OECD average only on readong, religion and science in the primary education. in all other subjects taught we are behind the OECD average here's the link:
http://www.oecd.org/document/30/0,3343,en_2649_39263238_39251550_1_1_1_37455,00.html#howto0 -
To those who say we have enough right-wing politicians around: The Budget Deficit INCREASED during the Boom years. If that yeer idea of right wing policies then ye really have to put more thought into it.
We need a welfare cul.
yes exactly what i think as well! we need a true right wing political agenda to be advocated0 -
All I want to change is to get experts running this country. I want people who know what they are doing . I want people who have a proven track record of being successful. I want people who dont look at the political capital coming out of such and such decision but look rather whether that decision is helpful to progress the country or not. The basic political system of elections and dail majority stays the same, true, but you have a cabinet of experts and that is the single and most important difference.
I agree with most of your points, apart from the system of experts which you propose, it is inevitable that the experts appointed will look at the political impact of their decisions, if the party that appoints them loses power, they lose their job.
I can see no major difference between the current system and the system you propose.
I also have my doubts about the flat tax rate, I'm not going to go look at all the figures, but I think tax revenue would fall, as said it would be a regressive tax.
Also a stronger standpoint on abortion would be neccessary, your opinion on it above seems quite uninformed.0 -
I agree with most of your points, apart from the system of experts which you propose, it is inevitable that the experts appointed will look at the political impact of their decisions, if the party that appoints them loses power, they lose their job.
I can see no major difference between the current system and the system you propose.
I also have my doubts about the flat tax rate, I'm not going to go look at all the figures, but I think tax revenue would fall, as said it would be a regressive tax.
Also a stronger standpoint on abortion would be neccessary, your opinion on it above seems quite uninformed.
if you want more info about that apolitical cabinet visit my blog, i have a series of posts dealing with it and its benefits. the url address is in my sig.
the flat tax rate would generate more money for people to spend. Thus the revenues from VAT and other 'hidden taxes' would make up for the shortfall. Of course a very stable tax base is needed for this.
well to be honest the question about abortion caught me by surprise and I haven't thought of making abortion an agenda for the movement. I can only repeat that abortion should be allowed, on the basis that we're not living in a religious state, but good deal of consultation and help prior to abortion should be mandatory so the pair knows exactly what abortion is about.
thanks for your support by the way. i'm glad you like the general bulk of the ideas0 -
if you want more info about that apolitical cabinet visit my blog, i have a series of posts dealing with it and its benefits. the url address is in my sig.
the flat tax rate would generate more money for people to spend. Thus the revenues from VAT and other 'hidden taxes' would make up for the shortfall. Of course a very stable tax base is needed for this.
well to be honest the question about abortion caught me by surprise and I haven't thought of making abortion an agenda for the movement. I can only repeat that abortion should be allowed, on the basis that we're not living in a religious state, but good deal of consultation and help prior to abortion should be mandatory so the pair knows exactly what abortion is about.
thanks for your support by the way. i'm glad you like the general bulk of the ideas
I've had a look at your blog, and I understand more now what you mean by your system of experts. It's a good idea as far as ministers are concerned, but in which field would the Taoiseach be an expert? I'm still not entirely sure it will work, and I think the experts should not be chosen by the majority party, as this gives them a more political bias. Not sure who else should chose them though to be honest.
I would still be doubtful about the increase in spending being greater than the fall in income tax revenue to be honest.I suppose it's difficult to predict, big risk to take though I think. To make sure I'm understanding you. you mean both income and VAT to be at 20%?
abortion is becoming an increasingly important issue in Irish society, and something I do believe its important for every political party to have a stance on. Have a read of some non-biased facts about the various abortion processes, its a good issue to be informed on. you're statement above about it being wrong to not abort after a certain number of weeks, and of giving fathers power, is likely to annoy both pro-choice and pro-life groups, which is proablt not your intention.0 -
no i didnt but my brother did and i was helping prepare for primary school at the start.
i just went back to my brother's primary school books and indeed in sixth class he was being taught basic fractions and not equations. The english curriculum was based on a few spelling test and reading a book or two.
History, geography, science, arts are taught in very little dosage, if any. you basically have one subject that covers it all and does not dedicate any time to any of these subject. also the way the primary education is carried out is that there really are is almost no way of assessing knowledge of these subject(i know maths and english spelling are assessed) which is a major fault of the system.
well to be different id have to support this im not exactly long out of primary school i did my LC this year and i recall doing basic algebra but equations were a new thing to me when i arrived in secoundary school.
With the english i had a spelling test every week of my time there the odd essay but nothing compared to the variation of what you do in secoundary school im not saying they should do the same by any means but a little preperation wouldnt go astray.
i did no science whatsoever with basic knowledge of irish geography and history..and summer test were unheard of un anything but english,irish and maths.
feel free to say my primary school was pathetic etc but myself and my class mates did our leaving cert most doing HL subjects.but i fell we were very ill prepared for secoundary schoolyou have a point. But you see the curriculum is vaguely written that it can be taken up differently in each school. fro example let me quote the math's curriculum:
* Applying and problem-solving
Understanding and recalling
* Communicating and expressing
* Integrating and connecting
* Reasoning
* Implementing
* Understanding and recalling
It also includes a number of strands which outline content that is to be included in the mathematics programme at each level. Each strand includes a number of strand units. Depending on the class level, strands can include
* Early mathematical activities
* Number
* Algebra
* Shape and space
* Measures
* Data
these instructions are nothing like the curriculum at secondary school where the curriculum wants you to have exact facts known. here under 'reasoning' i can understand pretty much whatever I want. same with 'early mathematical activities'. and so we arrive at the problem when one school can have a great teaching staff and be really preparing the students for secondary education and giving them enhance knowledge while the other school can be exactly opposite.
To add a few facts of my own: Ireland spends more time than OECD average only on readong, religion and science in the primary education. in all other subjects taught we are behind the OECD average here's the link:
http://www.oecd.org/document/30/0,3343,en_2649_39263238_39251550_1_1_1_37455,00.html#howto
i love how this seems to have been ignored!
its true the secoundary school curriculm is layed out in extrme detail in comparsion to the primary school one.there is no mistake as to what the students must know for secoundary school and not every school is inspected every year to ensure up keep of education levels our year was visted 4-5 times in a 5 year period by inspectors so when the primary one is poorly layed out teachers can make what they wish of it they may barely teach them all these topics while another may teach in great detail putting one group at a significant disadvantage to the other if were layed out in more detail not necessary inspected more it would ensure all students should be on a level playing field apon entry to secoundary education
and about the abortion aspect i totally agree a party should have a view on this major area but surely at this early stage of his plan he dosent need one as he isnt going at ''the masses'' as of now just getting opinions0 -
I've had a look at your blog, and I understand more now what you mean by your system of experts. It's a good idea as far as ministers are concerned, but in which field would the Taoiseach be an expert? I'm still not entirely sure it will work, and I think the experts should not be chosen by the majority party, as this gives them a more political bias. Not sure who else should chose them though to be honest.
The Taoiseach would have to be long time leader of a major organisation or someone with a good background. Right now Pat Cox would be good, i suppose, though he does have political ties.
I agree that it is a bit tricky with the Dail appoitning is making the him/her politically bias a bit, but we can excuse that for expressing the 'people's wish'. You could also argue for the president to be given the power to pick a Taoiseach...I would still be doubtful about the increase in spending being greater than the fall in income tax revenue to be honest.I suppose it's difficult to predict, big risk to take though I think. To make sure I'm understanding you. you mean both income and VAT to be at 20%?
flat rate of tax as such works in many countries. The NIT is a bit different, as it scraps welfare pretty much, but the tax revenues should correspond with those of a simple flat tax procedure.
Yes i am saying to put all taxes at the same level, what level is that, i don't know simply due to the fact that I do have the figures to work it out properly.abortion is becoming an increasingly important issue in Irish society, and something I do believe its important for every political party to have a stance on. Have a read of some non-biased facts about the various abortion processes, its a good issue to be informed on. you're statement above about it being wrong to not abort after a certain number of weeks, and of giving fathers power, is likely to annoy both pro-choice and pro-life groups, which is proablt not your intention.
well as was pointed by the poster above me, at this stage i'm looking for ideas and opinions and the opinion i gave was purely mine and i expect it would be melted down when other people join the movement and express their ideas and opinions.0 -
By the way if anyone is interested in the movement, I have set up a group on facebook. It's called Breakthrough I would welcome anyone who wants to join and contribute.
Here's the link http://www.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#/group.php?gid=129430631662&ref=nf0 -
oh yes Irish primary education is terrible, i never had summer tests in anything at all! Never did science or much history or geography and had very poor Irish!Homicidal_jesus wrote: »well to be different id have to support this im not exactly long out of primary school i did my LC this year and i recall doing basic algebra but equations were a new thing to me when i arrived in secoundary school.
With the english i had a spelling test every week of my time there the odd essay but nothing compared to the variation of what you do in secoundary school im not saying they should do the same by any means but a little preperation wouldnt go astray.
i did no science whatsoever with basic knowledge of irish geography and history..and summer test were unheard of un anything but english,irish and maths.
feel free to say my primary school was pathetic etc but myself and my class mates did our leaving cert most doing HL subjects.but i fell we were very ill prepared for secoundary school
i love how this seems to have been ignored!
its true the secoundary school curriculm is layed out in extrme detail in comparsion to the primary school one.there is no mistake as to what the students must know for secoundary school and not every school is inspected every year to ensure up keep of education levels our year was visted 4-5 times in a 5 year period by inspectors so when the primary one is poorly layed out teachers can make what they wish of it they may barely teach them all these topics while another may teach in great detail putting one group at a significant disadvantage to the other if were layed out in more detail not necessary inspected more it would ensure all students should be on a level playing field apon entry to secoundary education
and about the abortion aspect i totally agree a party should have a view on this major area but surely at this early stage of his plan he dosent need one as he isnt going at ''the masses'' as of now just getting opinions
well i'm not actually asking his opinion on abortion as such, just pointing out that it'd be something to do research on before he does go to "the masses".0 -
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The Taoiseach would have to be long time leader of a major organisation or someone with a good background. Right now Pat Cox would be good, i suppose, though he does have political ties.
I agree that it is a bit tricky with the Dail appoitning is making the him/her politically bias a bit, but we can excuse that for expressing the 'people's wish'. You could also argue for the president to be given the power to pick a Taoiseach...
As you've basically admitted by suggesting Pat Cox, it's quite hard to find anyone with a suitable background for the position of taoiseach, that isn't a political background. would you consider the ministers being "experts", and the taoiseach a political figure?
which countries does the flat tax rate work in? i don't mean that in a challenging way, I'm just interested in some examples as I've never heard that before.flat rate of tax as such works in many countries. The NIT is a bit different, as it scraps welfare pretty much, but the tax revenues should correspond with those of a simple flat tax procedure.
Yes i am saying to put all taxes at the same level, what level is that, i don't know simply due to the fact that I do have the figures to work it out properly.
Fair enough, as I said not necessarily asking your opinion, just suggesting that you form one. You asked for my opinion, and thats what I think you should do.well as was pointed by the poster above me, at this stage i'm looking for ideas and opinions and the opinion i gave was purely mine and i expect it would be melted down when other people join the movement and express their ideas and opinions.
How exactly are you intending on bringing this change about by the way?0 -
As you've basically admitted by suggesting Pat Cox, it's quite hard to find anyone with a suitable background for the position of taoiseach, that isn't a political background. would you consider the ministers being "experts", and the taoiseach a political figure?
Pat Cox was just an example without any thought, to be honest. But i do get your point it is fairly hard to find a good candidate. However, i don't think it is impossible. Having a political Taoiseach is an idea I must consider, and it is interesting. You could aslo argue to give the President the powers of the Taoiseach and thus, if the person needs to be political, it is completely direcly elected.which countries does the flat tax rate work in? i don't mean that in a challenging way, I'm just interested in some examples as I've never heard that before.
Flat rate across the spectrum works in Slovakia. The flat tax on the wages works in Czech Republic, Bulgaria, Russia, Serbia, Kazachstan, Latvia, Lithuania etc(basically most 'eastern bloc' countries...which is pretty ironic...its been used to make them more competitive)Fair enough, as I said not necessarily asking your opinion, just suggesting that you form one. You asked for my opinion, and thats what I think you should do.
How exactly are you intending on bringing this change about by the way?
oh right sorry if i misunderstood you then and thanks for the advice:D
well i would first like to do this by means of lobbying, simply because i'm 18 years old and s future university student and this option seems the best suited. however, should the voice of the lobbying go unheard i would have to move to making the movement fully political, ie ready to contest elections.0
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