Off topic discussion (Jakkass and Iwasfrozen)

Iwasfrozen

Jakkass wrote:

I don't think this is the case. Many Christian thinkers have been open to logic if you merely read their material. I personally think that not many can beat Thomas Aquinas in terms of his logic, particularly on morality and ethics. Likewise C.S Lewis in terms of his logic in Mere Christianity and Miracles is quite extraordinary

Christian theologians are restricting them selves due to their vary nature as Christian theologians.
Let me give an example: If a Christian theologian found undoubted proof that God did not exist then they would have to ignore this evidence becuas eif they didn't they would not be "Christian" theologians.

Jakkass wrote:

As for the Bible being proven wrong on creation that also depends on how one views Genesis. You know that and I know that.

Another example, once Christians where proven wrong on creationism they took the theory of evolution, inserted it into their belifes, and said that Genesis must be a paroble, despite the fact it was treated as truth by the Abramic religions for hundreds of year.

"Hmm, this whole creation thing doesn't seem to be working in our favour lads, what should we do ?"
*Commence head scratching*
"I know, why don't we take this Darwin fellows theory and fit it nice and snuggly into our own religion, by saying Genesis is a story not to be taken seriously and that Adam was some form of Monkey man, we can carry on as normal."
*Commence appulse from Christians, Jews and Muslims around the world.*

Jakkass wrote:

As for extraterrestial life, you should really look to the Christianity forum for a thread on this. Most Christian posters do not see it as a problem at all. Rather it means that God's creation is much more sophisticated than we ever could have imagined. I think it's a bit of a leap on your part to say that it is "inevitable" though.

But if Man was made in Gods image, and these Alians don't look like Humans, then surely these Alians don't look like God.
Or is that another part of Genesis that is a story ?

Jakkass wrote:

I don't see how. I mean most atheists will rarely give the supernatural any serious consideration. So aren't they not also restricting their understanding on the same note?

You're confusing Atheism with Humanism.
Atheists don't believe in a creator, Humanists ignore all supernatural phonomina. Many Atheists are also Humanists, but not all.
I am an Atheist but not a Humanist.

Jakkass wrote:

Restriction? I think it is a freedom that I am able to be free of the negative pressures of this world and that I am able to live a fulfilling life in the knowledge of God. Have you ever noticed that the theme that runs through the New Testament is actually freedom rather than restriction.

You didn't answer my question, why did God give us the freedom to see right form wrong only to bombard us with countless rules such as no sex before marrige, don't drink, don't smoke, etc.

Jakkass wrote:

Atheists don't have a monopoly on logic. Many Christian thinkers have shown themselves to be logical, and many Christians have been involved in science over the centuries. I consider it highly illogical to even employ this argument.

To consider something is illogical.

Jakkass wrote:

Likewise anyone who claims to have a purely rational assessment of the world is just plain wrong. Humans are emotional beings and emotions will always impact how they are doing. Even if they were purely rational, reason isn't the source of all knowledge. Empiricism is needed before we even reason in the first place. The different between atheists and theists is not reason, but rather their sources of empiricism which they use to begin with.

If God is perfect then why didn't he allow us to understand his endless ego that needs to be constantly praised ?

Jakkass wrote:

I have yet to see what is remotely childish about God giving us laws to protect us.

To protect us from what ? Himself ?
Surely he doesn't need to give us laws to protect us from himself ?
And yes, your picture of God is childish. He creates us, gives us freedom of choice, askes us to worship him by our own choice, and if we choose not to he has a hissy fit and sends us to hell.
Why did he bother giving us free will at all ?

Jakkass wrote:

Due to the fact that God is both a God of justice and mercy. God reconciled mercy and justice on the Cross where Jesus was offered to pay the price of our sins on the understanding that we remain loyal to God before the Final Judgement. If one does not accept this atonement for ones sins, one will have to pay for them ones self by eternal punishment.

Torturing someone forever is hardly for not believing in you is hardly justice.

Jakkass wrote:

1. We do not know that Peter was the first Pope. We do not even know if Peter died in Rome

1. We don't know that God exists but that hasn't stopped Christians before.

Jakkass wrote:

2. Protestantism is descended from independence and free reading and interpretation of the Bible.

2. Protestantism is descended from the movement of Martain Luther, a German monk who rightly accused the RC church of heresy for charging people money to get into heaven.

Jakkass wrote:

Some people think that Catholicism was the sole Christian church from day one, it simply wasn't. We have the Jewish Church of James the Righteous, the Armenian Apostolic Church of Barnabas and Jude, the Indian Church of Thomas, the Gentile Church of Paul all of these existed before the Roman Catholic Church.

Actually, I didn't know this.
Thanks for the information.

Nerin

Just edited the title so people dont think its just a random chat thread, and its a follow on from where you guys were.

Thanks for making the new thread.

philologos

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Christian theologians are restricting them selves due to their vary nature as Christian theologians.
Let me give an example: If a Christian theologian found undoubted proof that God did not exist then they would have to ignore this evidence becuas eif they didn't they would not be "Christian" theologians.

I disagree with you here, I don't think just because you are a Christian means you have to be closed to other forms of thought. I think it is important for people irrespective of religion to consider other ideas.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Another example, once Christians where proven wrong on creationism they took the theory of evolution, inserted it into their belifes, and said that Genesis must be a paroble, despite the fact it was treated as truth by the Abramic religions for hundreds of year.

Actually, this is factually incorrect. Augustine in the 4th century AD discussed an alternate view to the Creation apart from the 7 days hypothesis.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

But if Man was made in Gods image, and these Alians don't look like Humans, then surely these Alians don't look like God.
Or is that another part of Genesis that is a story ?

That isn't an issue. BTW, being in the image or likeness of God has been interpreted by most Jewish authorities, and most Christian theologians to mean that there was a spiritual likeness between man and God rather than a likeness in appearance. The likeness between man and God means that humanity can have a meaningful relationship with Him.

However, there is nothing concerning aliens in the Biblical text, which leaves a lot open rather than closed.

As I say for most Christians the presence of aliens would not change their faith at all.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You're confusing Atheism with Humanism.
Atheists don't believe in a creator, Humanists ignore all supernatural phonomina. Many Atheists are also Humanists, but not all.
I am an Atheist but not a Humanist.

I never said that they did. Many humanists don't believe in a creator. I'm saying that if there were a creator, I'd find it very strange that one would not be thankful to said creator for the creation.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You didn't answer my question, why did God give us the freedom to see right form wrong only to bombard us with countless rules such as no sex before marrige, don't drink, don't smoke, etc.

God gave us rational faculties. However, God knows everything about His creation, therefore I'd find His advice about how to live in it as entirely welcome.

There is no prohibition against drinking in the Bible. There is only a prohibition against drunkenness. Likewise there is no explicit prohibition against smoking. However the Bible does say to regard ones body as a temple to the Lord.

As for no sex before marriage there are plenty of rational reasons as to why this is a wise practice.

Anyhow, you seem to view the Bible as merely a rule book. I see the Bible as more than rules, I see the Bible as an entire relationship between Him and us. I follow Christianity not because I feel forced to or that I feel that I must follow commandments x, y and z or out of fear, I follow Christianity because I've come to respect the character of God, and how I have come to relate to this God as a reality in my every day existence.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

To consider something is illogical.

What?

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

If God is perfect then why didn't he allow us to understand his endless ego that needs to be constantly praised?

I don't believe God is there just to receive praise, I do think that he is deserving of it, but God plays more of a role in my life than just someone I praise. It is things like this that make me think that a lot of people don't understand what faith for the average Christian involves.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

To protect us from what ? Himself ?
Surely he doesn't need to give us laws to protect us from himself ?
And yes, your picture of God is childish. He creates us, gives us freedom of choice, askes us to worship him by our own choice, and if we choose not to he has a hissy fit and sends us to hell.
Why did he bother giving us free will at all ?

To protect us from the hazards of the world.

I don't think God has gotten into a hissy fit with me or anyone else. Rather I believe that his protection, and His guidance are entirely justified. I'd easily favour them over the guidance of many men.

Again, I don't agree that following God is all about praise and worship, it's about understanding as well.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Torturing someone forever is hardly for not believing in you is hardly justice.

It isn't just for not believing.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Protestantism is descended from the movement of Martain Luther, a German monk who rightly accused the RC church of heresy for charging people money to get into heaven.

This is a terribly simplistic view of Protestantism.

Protestantism has resulted from several different movements throughout history. The first four major movements took place in Europe.

1. The German Reformation. (Lutheranism)
2. The English Reformation. (Anglicanism)
3. The French Reformation. (Calvinism / Presbyterianism)
4. The Swiss Reformation - Ulrich Zwingli

Then there were other movements.
1. Puritanism - very very Sola Scriptura, no images in church, no music.
2. Scottish Presbyterianism based from the French Reformation when John Knox met with Calvin.
3. Methodism - a break away from Anglicanism with emphasis on a personal relationship with Jesus expressed by John and Charles Wesley.
4. Baptists - emphasised that baptism should be a personal commitment by those who have full knowledge of it.
5. Pentecostalism / Evangelicalism / Charismatic - emphasises the Holy Spirit interacting in peoples lives.

There are many many many more. Many seperate reformations, many separate people. Martin Luther was a key person in promoting Protestant understanding in Europe, but many more influenced Protestant understanding since.

If you want to know more about the English Reformation, a brilliant documentary deals with it here:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6101527704063312894

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Actually, I didn't know this.
Thanks for the information.

No problem.

Iwasfrozen

Jakkass wrote:

I disagree with you here, I don't think just because you are a Christian means you have to be closed to other forms of thought. I think it is important for people irrespective of religion to consider other ideas.

By their very nature they must be restricted to Christian thought. If they move out of those boundaries then they aren't "Christian" anymore.

Jakkass wrote:

Actually, this is factually incorrect. Augustine in the 4th century AD discussed an alternate view to the Creation apart from the 7 days hypothesis.

Opposing an idea is compleatly different from changing the way the entire first couple of chapters of Genesis are interpreted.

Jakkass wrote:

That isn't an issue. BTW, being in the image or likeness of God has been interpreted by most Jewish authorities, and most Christian theologians to mean that there was a spiritual likeness between man and God rather than a likeness in appearance. The likeness between man and God means that humanity can have a meaningful relationship with Him.

Another example of Christians changing their belifes to fit in with mainstream thought.

Jakkass wrote:

I never said that they did. Many humanists don't believe in a creator. I'm saying that if there were a creator, I'd find it very strange that one would not be thankful to said creator for the creation.

People offering their praise to God is one thing, God demanding praise is another.

Jakkass wrote:

There is no prohibition against drinking in the Bible. There is only a prohibition against drunkenness. Likewise there is no explicit prohibition against smoking. However the Bible does say to regard ones body as a temple to the Lord.

Then shouldn't these decisions come from people themselves rather than from God ?

Jakkass wrote:

Anyhow, you seem to view the Bible as merely a rule book. I see the Bible as more than rules, I see the Bible as an entire relationship between Him and us. I follow Christianity not because I feel forced to or that I feel that I must follow commandments x, y and z or out of fear, I follow Christianity because I've come to respect the character of God, and how I have come to relate to this God as a reality in my every day existence.

That doesn't answer my question: Why does God torture people forever for not following his very strict rules ?

Jakkass wrote:

To protect us from the hazards of the world.

What hazards ?

I don't think God has gotten into a hissy fit with me or anyone else. Rather I believe that his protection, and His guidance are entirely justified. I'd easily favour them over the guidance of many men.

Again, I don't agree that following God is all about praise and worship, it's about understanding as well.

Why do you need to follow Gods rules to protect you from God ? God is the one who will turn you to a lake of fire for not following him. By the sounds of it Men are quite pacifist by comparison.
Understanding what ? Understanding that he will punish you forever if you don't worship his Son [who is allso God].

Jakkass wrote:

It isn't just for not believing.

The bible says the only way to God is through Jesus, not believing in Jesus = Sulfer Lake.


Wow Protestantismis complicated.

philologos

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

By their very nature they must be restricted to Christian thought. If they move out of those boundaries then they aren't "Christian" anymore.

This is absolutely absurd. People can read and think about other worldviews without departing from their own. I can think about Islamic thought without leaving Christian thought. Likewise I can think about secular thought without leaving Christian thought behind.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Opposing an idea is compleatly different from changing the way the entire first couple of chapters of Genesis are interpreted.

Who says that people changed it? That's my problem with the logic of your post. There were differing views on the Creation in Christianity from Origen of Jerusalem, and Augustine, both of which were Church Fathers from the 4th century AD.

You claim on the other hand that this view emerged after Darwin. That claim isn't entirely true. Many people may have explored other views of the creation then, but that doesn't mean that these views didn't exist beforehand.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Another example of Christians changing their belifes to fit in with mainstream thought.

If you are going to make accusations against Jewish or Christian thought please back it up or show that it was changed. I have never read anything that suggests that people thought that they shared likeness in appearance to God.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

People offering their praise to God is one thing, God demanding praise is another.

Let me put it simply. If one does not respect and honour God, why should one expect God to respect and honour them? God offers His love to those who accept it. Those who do not will be judged entirely based on the price of their sin.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Then shouldn't these decisions come from people themselves rather than from God ?

I'm failing to see your point here. Drinking and smoking are not prohibited explicitly in the Bible. Drunkenness is prohibited in the Bible several times. As for smoking, a lot of Christians regard it as not regarding ones body as a temple of the Lord as the Christian texts suggest one does, however other Christians do smoke. It isn't clear. I personally do not think one should divide the church over what is not clear.

So I'd advise personal discretion in asking:
1) Should I drink?
or
2) Should I smoke?

When things are clear though, I think it has been made clear for a reason.

Phillippians 3:15-16 wrote:

Let those of us then who are mature be of the same mind; and if you think differently about anything, this too God will reveal to you. Only let us hold fast to what we have attained

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That doesn't answer my question: Why does God torture people forever for not following his very strict rules ?

Are the rules of the New Covenant strict?

You seem to expect that God's rules are intended to be a burden unto us, but infact they are meant to be freedom.

Christians are not expected to be perfect, infact they are expected to make a lot of mistakes until we grow more in God. Infact, Christianity doesn't expect perfection at all. Christians have been offered forgiveness, the New Testament says that those who have accepted Jesus as their Saviour and believe in Him will be forgiven of all of their sin so that they can put themselves right with God before the final days.

I'm not perfect, I will mess up time to time, but my intention is always to repent and put myself right with God again. It's through messing up that one learns more and more about what one should do. Learning from mistakes is better than dwelling in them.

You seem to have some notion that Christians follow God out of fear of hell. I personally don't. I follow God because I honour His existence as a reality and I respect who He is.

If people don't honour God, God will not honour them.

Matthew 10:32-33 wrote:

'Everyone therefore who acknowledges me before others, I also will acknowledge before my Father in heaven; but whoever denies me before others, I will also deny before my Father in heaven.'

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

What hazards ?

Have you not been in this world long enough to see what is dangerous about it?

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Why do you need to follow Gods rules to protect you from God ? God is the one who will turn you to a lake of fire for not following him. By the sounds of it Men are quite pacifist by comparison.
Understanding what ? Understanding that he will punish you forever if you don't worship his Son [who is allso God].

I have nothing to fear. I've accepted Jesus Christ. However, you seem to have this notion that I accepted Jesus Christ out of fear. I am currently living this life for what this life is, I am not going to live the next life until it comes. I'm not all that concerned about it. My life now is about living out the Gospel in my every day existence, and leaving this world a better place than what the world was when I started out in it.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The bible says the only way to God is through Jesus, not believing in Jesus = Sulfer Lake.

I'm aware that Jesus is the only way to God, I'm really not seeing your point here? I mean nobody is being punished purely for disbelief, but rather what they have done wrong in their life time. God has offered all mankind a chance to put themselves right with Him before Judgement Day, but some are too stubborn to accept it. I still do not see how this is God being cruel rather than God being just. He has authority over this world because it is His creation.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Wow Protestantismis complicated.

Anything to do with independence is complicated. Protestantism brought out more independent Christianity which in turn also affected Catholicism after a while if you look to Vatican II, and the fact the Catholic Church uses the Bible in English and does an English mass.

Iwasfrozen

Jakkass wrote: »

This is absolutely absurd. People can read and think about other worldviews without departing from their own. I can think about Islamic thought without leaving Christian thought. Likewise I can think about secular thought without leaving Christian thought behind.

Yes but they cannot act on their thoughts or add them to their collections. For example if C.S Lewis wrote an essay about the likelyhood of God not existing, well he isn't a Christian theologian anymore is he.
Christian theologians are so clouded by their own religion they cannot see past it.

Jakkass wrote:

Who says that people changed it? That's my problem with the logic of your post. There were differing views on the Creation in Christianity from Origen of Jerusalem, and Augustine, both of which were Church Fathers from the 4th century AD.

Augustine opposed the idea of a seven day creation, Darwin forced the several churchs of the world to chance the way we see the first chapters of Genesis.
One is an Emporer displaying common sense but not acting on it, and other is forcing the most powerful institute at the time [the RC church] to do a complete dogmatic U turn after aprox 1.5k years.

Jakkass wrote:

You claim on the other hand that this view emerged after Darwin. That claim isn't entirely true. Many people may have explored other views of the creation then, but that doesn't mean that these views didn't exist beforehand.

But such views where never proved and didn't cause Christians to question their own creation myths.

Jakkass wrote:

If you are going to make accusations against Jewish or Christian thought please back it up or show that it was changed. I have never read anything that suggests that people thought that they shared likeness in appearance to God.

I have backed up all claims I made:
[QUOTE=Genesis 1:26]Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."[/QUOTE]
This clearly says man is made in Gods image.

Jakkass wrote:

Let me put it simply. If one does not respect and honour God, why should one expect God to respect and honour them? God offers His love to those who accept it. Those who do not will be judged entirely based on the price of their sin.

You're making God sound even more childish, a proverbial a sort of "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours." God is supposed to be mercyful and forgiving far beyond human standards. But the more I hear about his personality by Christians the more I am certain that he is a Human concept displaying Human characteristics or selfishness and vanity.

Jakkass wrote:

I'm failing to see your point here. Drinking and smoking are not prohibited explicitly in the Bible. Drunkenness is prohibited in the Bible several times. As for smoking, a lot of Christians regard it as not regarding ones body as a temple of the Lord as the Christian texts suggest one does, however other Christians do smoke. It isn't clear. I personally do not think one should divide the church over what is not clear.

It may not be wrote in the Bile but it is commonly accepted as part of christian dogma not to drink or smoke, just as burkas or haijabs are not mentioned per say in the Qur'an.
But that isn't my question, my question is simple:
Why does an all powerful being care about what humans do in their leisure time as long as it does not curropt the worship he say vainly needs.

Jakkass wrote:

Are the rules of the New Covenant strict?

You seem to expect that God's rules are intended to be a burden unto us, but infact they are meant to be freedom.

Christians are not expected to be perfect, infact they are expected to make a lot of mistakes until we grow more in God. Infact, Christianity doesn't expect perfection at all. Christians have been offered forgiveness, the New Testament says that those who have accepted Jesus as their Saviour and believe in Him will be forgiven of all of their sin so that they can put themselves right with God before the final days.

God said the only way to him was through Christ, therefore we must pray to Christ to get to heaven, so yes. I would say that's strict.
Atheists, Jews, Muslims, Buddists, Hindu's, Shiks etc. are all going to hell because they don't worship Jesus.

Jakkass wrote:

I'm not perfect, I will mess up time to time, but my intention is always to repent and put myself right with God again. It's through messing up that one learns more and more about what one should do. Learning from mistakes is better than dwelling in them.

You seem to have some notion that Christians follow God out of fear of hell. I personally don't. I follow God because I honour His existence as a reality and I respect who He is.

If people don't honour God, God will not honour them.

You still haven't answered my question: Why does God torture people forever for not following his very strict rules ?

Jakkass wrote:

Have you not been in this world long enough to see what is dangerous about it?

Apparently not, please do explain why I need protection from an imaginary friend ?

Jakkass wrote:

I have nothing to fear. I've accepted Jesus Christ. However, you seem to have this notion that I accepted Jesus Christ out of fear. I am currently living this life for what this life is, I am not going to live the next life until it comes. I'm not all that concerned about it. My life now is about living out the Gospel in my every day existence, and leaving this world a better place than what the world was when I started out in it.

I never said you converted to Christianity out of fear, I asked you why do you need Gods rules to protect you from hell. If God really loved you then wouldn't he not throw you into the lake of fire for not following his rules that he made up.

Jakkass wrote:

I'm aware that Jesus is the only way to God, I'm really not seeing your point here? I mean nobody is being punished purely for disbelief, but rather what they have done wrong in their life time. God has offered all mankind a chance to put themselves right with Him before Judgement Day, but some are too stubborn to accept it. I still do not see how this is God being cruel rather than God being just. He has authority over this world because it is His creation.

See above:

Iwasfrozen wrote:

God said the only way to him was through Christ, therefore we must pray to Christ to get to heaven, so yes. I would say that's strict.
Atheists, Jews, Muslims, Buddists, Hindu's, Shiks etc. are all going to hell because they don't worship Jesus.

Jakass wrote:

Anything to do with independence is complicated. Protestantism brought out more independent Christianity which in turn also affected Catholicism after a while if you look to Vatican II, and the fact the Catholic Church uses the Bible in English and does an English mass.

I agree with that fully, Protestantism was the single greatest thing that happened in Christianity. It allowed people to interparate the Bible personally and challenged the RC monopoly on the faith.

philologos

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Yes but they cannot act on their thoughts or add them to their collections. For example if C.S Lewis wrote an essay about the likelyhood of God not existing, well he isn't a Christian theologian anymore is he.

Christian theologians are so clouded by their own religion they cannot see past it.

C.S Lewis was never a Christian theologian to start with. He was a layperson in the Anglican Church with no formal theological training apart from his own readings. He is a Christian apologist.

You can discuss other forms of thought without losing your faith. What you are saying is you can't discuss God not existing while still believing it? Seriously how do you come to such views about academic discourse.

What you really mean is that you can't not believe in God while still being a Christian, but you can certainly discuss it without believing in it yourself.

Again, your point doesn't make much sense at all. Your accusation about Christian theologians is merely generalising, and it is only an ad-hominem attack.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Augustine opposed the idea of a seven day creation, Darwin forced the several churchs of the world to chance the way we see the first chapters of Genesis.

I think you'll find that Darwin didn't force anyone to do anything. Rather people decided to on their own accord. I'm sure you know as well as I do that there are a lot of people out there who still believe in a 7 day creation event. How come they weren't forced to change?

Different viewpoints on the Genesis accounts had existed hundreds of years before Darwin even was born.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

One is an Emporer displaying common sense but not acting on it, and other is forcing the most powerful institute at the time [the RC church] to do a complete dogmatic U turn after aprox 1.5k years.

Neither Augustine or Origen were ever emperors of any Empire

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

But such views where never proved and didn't cause Christians to question their own creation myths.

Christians through academic pursuits had questioned the meanings of Genesis for hundreds of years before Darwin. I'm failing to see your point or it's relevance.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I have backed up all claims I made:

You have not.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

This clearly says man is made in Gods image.

You do realise Genesis was written in Hebrew not English originally? Translation can make things seem more "clear". However a translator has to pick the best word possible for the word "B'tselem" which is the word used for image in Genesis.

You would have to show me that the understanding changed. You have not backed this up and you have failed to do so.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You're making God sound even more childish, a proverbial a sort of "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours." God is supposed to be mercyful and forgiving far beyond human standards. But the more I hear about his personality by Christians the more I am certain that he is a Human concept displaying Human characteristics or selfishness and vanity.

God is merciful to those who seek His mercy. Humans are not always merciful to those who seek their mercy, we sometimes find it hard to forgive. God never finds it hard to forgive someone who is truly sorry. We do. I don't see how this is in any way childish. Infact, out of all the claims you have made about God, when put into normal contexts it seems much more to me that atheists refer to God as childish, arrogant, and so on. Yet what is arrogant about saying that the Creator is superior to the Creation? Nothing at all!

Rather what is arrogant would be if a creator exists of course, that this Creator has done everything that we see around us in the world, and yet people are not even willing to acknowledge His mere existence.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

It may not be wrote in the Bile but it is commonly accepted as part of christian dogma not to drink or smoke, just as burkas or haijabs are not mentioned per say in the Qur'an.
But that isn't my question, my question is simple:
Why does an all powerful being care about what humans do in their leisure time as long as it does not curropt the worship he say vainly needs.

Again, you'd need to back this up. Where is it said in Christianity in general that smoking or drinking anything is a sin? Infact there are Biblical passages which encourage moderate drinking.

As for why God cares about us, I've already explained that on the other thread. I would find it much stranger that if there was a supernatural Creator and that Creator did not take an interest in the Creation, particularly intelligent life who could sustain a living relationship with Him. That is what doesn't make sense.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

God said the only way to him was through Christ, therefore we must pray to Christ to get to heaven, so yes. I would say that's strict.

I don't see that as strict in the slighest to accept the truth and to enter a meaningful relationship with God. What is strict about that actually?

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You still haven't answered my question: Why does God torture people forever for not following his very strict rules ?

I have answered your question. They are deserving of it for their sins. Infact I am also deserving of hell as I have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). However, God has offered me and all mankind mercy. If one does not accept this mercy, one will be subject to ones own fate.

I don't accept your notion that God's commandments are strict, particularly if He has offered you grace from them by just accepting Jesus Christ. If you accept Jesus Christ you are no longer under the Law. "There is no condemnation in Christ Jesus" (Romans 8:1) Hence your sins have been wiped away, and man has freedom to put Himself right with God. That's the entire point of the Gospel.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Apparently not, please do explain why I need protection from an imaginary friend ?

The danger of the world, the wickedness of man in particular. How man has abused God's creation. If one is truly loyal to God, one will be protected from evil.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I never said you converted to Christianity out of fear, I asked you why do you need Gods rules to protect you from hell. If God really loved you then wouldn't he not throw you into the lake of fire for not following his rules that he made up.

I've explained to you already so many times. I follow God's commandments out of respect for Him. I don't see eternal damnation as a risk. I am concerned with the life that God has given me. For now I am not concerned with heaven and hell from a personal perspective, I am seeking to live for Jesus in the here and now.

Your question amounts to: Why do you want to follow God rather than follow atheism?

My answer is roughly the same answer you'd give me if I asked the other way around. I prefer to accept reality, the way things really are. God is a part of the way things really are in this world from what I've experienced in my life.

God to me is a far better judge of good and evil than mankind will ever be. I don't follow His commandments because I have to. One who believes in Christ is already saved from destruction. Their sins have been wiped away. It is those who do not believe in Christ whose sins still remain.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I agree with that fully, Protestantism was the single greatest thing that happened in Christianity. It allowed people to interparate the Bible personally and challenged the RC monopoly on the faith.

One thing we agree on.

Iwasfrozen, I want you to answer some of my questions now. I think it is only fair since you have thrown quite a number at me:

Why do you as an atheist feel obliged to ask these questions if you are not truly interested in your heart? Surely if you have put up barriers in your mind, you wouldn't even allow God in even if God existed? What's the point? Why does it matter? Just curious?

Iwasfrozen

Jakkass wrote:

C.S Lewis was never a Christian theologian to start with. He was a layperson in the Anglican Church with no formal theological training apart from his own readings. He is a Christian apologist.

You can discuss other forms of thought without losing your faith. What you are saying is you can't discuss God not existing while still believing it? Seriously how do you come to such views about academic discourse.

What you really mean is that you can't not believe in God while still being a Christian, but you can certainly discuss it without believing in it yourself.

You don't have to have formal training in theology to be a theologian, anyone who exands religious thoughts is a theologian. By the merit C.S Lewis was a Christian theologian.

Yes you can from thoughts write essay's based on others religions without commiting to that Religion but you cannot act on those ideas.

Jakkass wrote:

I think you'll find that Darwin didn't force anyone to do anything. Rather people decided to on their own accord. I'm sure you know as well as I do that there are a lot of people out there who still believe in a 7 day creation event. How come they weren't forced to change?

Different viewpoints on the Genesis accounts had existed hundreds of years before Darwin even was born.

Darwin didn't force them to rewrite anything himself, but as evidence mounted in support for his theory of evolution Christianity couldn't do anything but change their teachings on the origin of life. Sure other theories had existed before but none that caused such an embarrassing U-turn.

Jakkass wrote:

Neither Augustine or Origen were ever emperors of any Empire

My mistake, I read as far as August and my brain filled in "us" instead of "tine".

Jakkass wrote:

Christians through academic pursuits had questioned the meanings of Genesis for hundreds of years before Darwin. I'm failing to see your point or it's relevance.

Again there's a difference in disscussing an alternative to creationism, it's another to cause a compleate U-turn in the worlds largest religion.

Jakkass wrote:

You have not.

Yes I have.

Jakkass wrote:

You do realise Genesis was written in Hebrew not English originally? Translation can make things seem more "clear". However a translator has to pick the best word possible for the word "B'tselem" which is the word used for image in Genesis.

I don't speak Biblical Hebrew and I'm not going to pretend that I do. But there are many experts who can, the translations we have today are the best we are going to get.
Though that does make an interesting change of plot, if the word "image" was translated wrongly or the meaning of words change over time then what else might be wrong ?
1. No virgin birth,
2. No resurrection,
3. God not actually being three dudes in one,
4. God not actually being a dude ! :eek:
After all if "image" is wrong, what else might be wrong ?

Jakkass wrote:

Again, you'd need to back this up. Where is it said in Christianity in general that smoking or drinking anything is a sin? Infact there are Biblical passages which encourage moderate drinking.

As for why God cares about us, I've already explained that on the other thread. I would find it much stranger that if there was a supernatural Creator and that Creator did not take an interest in the Creation, particularly intelligent life who could sustain a living relationship with Him. That is what doesn't make sense.

Well smoking wasn't around in those days dude, but it would fall under that "body is a temple" thing you referred to.
But anyway, you wanted quotes for not drinking:

Daniel 1:8 wrote:

But Daniel resolved not to defile himself with the royal food and wine, and he asked the chief official for permission not to defile himself this way.

Jeremiah 35:6-14 wrote:

But they replied, "We do not drink wine, because our forefather Jonadab son of Recab gave us this command: 'Neither you nor your descendants must ever drink wine.

[QUOTE=Luke 1:15]
for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from birth.
[/QUOTE]
I thrust three quotes will be sufficent ?

Jakkass wrote:

I've explained to you already so many times. I follow God's commandments out of respect for Him. I don't see eternal damnation as a risk. I am concerned with the life that God has given me. For now I am not concerned with heaven and hell from a personal perspective, I am seeking to live for Jesus in the here and now.

Your question amounts to: Why do you want to follow God rather than follow atheism?

My answer is roughly the same answer you'd give me if I asked the other way around. I prefer to accept reality, the way things really are. God is a part of the way things really are in this world from what I've experienced in my life.

God to me is a far better judge of good and evil than mankind will ever be. I don't follow His commandments because I have to. One who believes in Christ is already saved from destruction. Their sins have been wiped away. It is those who do not believe in Christ whose sins still remain.

I'm sorry did you explain it ? It must be buried somewhere in all that fanatic rhetoric.
No, my question boils down to: Why, if God loves you does he throw you into hell for not following his rules that he made up.

You have absolutely no proof that God exists yet you seem to live in a dreamy wonderland full of make believe friends that have the power to torture your soul.

Jakkass wrote:

I don't see that as strict in the slighest to accept the truth and to enter a meaningful relationship with God. What is strict about that actually?

And what of Jews, Muslims, Hindus etc.
Do they go to hell because they didn't accept Christ ?

Jakkass wrote:

I have answered your question. They are deserving of it for their sins. Infact I am also deserving of hell as I have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). However, God has offered me and all mankind mercy. If one does not accept this mercy, one will be subject to ones own fate.

I don't accept your notion that God's commandments are strict, particularly if He has offered you grace from them by just accepting Jesus Christ. If you accept Jesus Christ you are no longer under the Law. "There is no condemnation in Christ Jesus" (Romans 8:1) Hence your sins have been wiped away, and man has freedom to put Himself right with God. That's the entire point of the Gospel.

Jews, Muslims, Hindus deserve to go to hell for the sin of not worshipping Christ ? How can you consider that fair ? How can you say they are not strict when you yourself have fallen short of them are you are a devout Christian ?

Jakkass wrote:

The danger of the world, the wickedness of man in particular. How man has abused God's creation. If one is truly loyal to God, one will be protected from evil.

You see, thats the difference between Christians and Atheists.
Christians say that Humans are inherently Evil.
Atheists say that Humans are inherently Good.

Jakkass wrote:

Why do you as an atheist feel obliged to ask these questions if you are not truly interested in your heart? Surely if you have put up barriers in your mind, you wouldn't even allow God in even if God existed? What's the point? Why does it matter? Just curious?

I joined this topic to defend the position that belife in Gos is ludicrous, just as you joined it to attack that position.

philologos

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Darwin didn't force them to rewrite anything himself, but as evidence mounted in support for his theory of evolution Christianity couldn't do anything but change their teachings on the origin of life. Sure other theories had existed before but none that caused such an embarrassing U-turn.

I don't think they pulled a U-turn. There was already a whole sphere of religious discussion on the Creation well before Darwin. Perhaps it made people think twice about the Genesis passage but I don't see it as being hugely dramatic as you do.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

My mistake, I read as far as August and my brain filled in "us" instead of "tine".

No problem.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Again there's a difference in disscussing an alternative to creationism, it's another to cause a compleate U-turn in the worlds largest religion.

I'm not sure if it made a U-turn, it merely caused people to think differently than they once did. In other cases it strengthened people in the belief that God created the world in 7 days.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I don't speak Biblical Hebrew and I'm not going to pretend that I do. But there are many experts who can, the translations we have today are the best we are going to get.
Though that does make an interesting change of plot, if the word "image" was translated wrongly or the meaning of words change over time then what else might be wrong ?

You have presented no reason to say that Jewish interpretation changed on "image" in Genesis 1:26-27. Most theologians hold the view that image refers to a spiritual likeness with God, and they have done for a long time now. This isn't a modern change.

You seem to think that people said that "Humans looked like God" and then we changed it. That belief wasn't ever held, and there is no evidence to suggest that the Bible says that humans look like God.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

1. No virgin birth,
2. No resurrection,
3. God not actually being three dudes in one,
4. God not actually being a dude ! :eek:
After all if "image" is wrong, what else might be wrong ?

4. God isn't physically male or female. People relate to God as a Father figure, but God doesn't have a body. The Bible makes this clear in both Jewish and Christian thought.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Well smoking wasn't around in those days dude, but it would fall under that "body is a temple" thing you referred to.
But anyway, you wanted quotes for not drinking:

It could be interpreted that way.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I thrust three quotes will be sufficent ?

These quotes you gave have been taken out of context: (Daniel 1:8)

Daniel ate vegetables and did not drink the royal wine, because they were not kosher. See Leviticus 11. In Jewish law both wine and meat has to reach rabbinical standards before a Jew is allowed to eat them. It is not because it was forbidden to drink.

David and Solomon both encouraged moderate drinking in their writings.

Lucky you quoted Jeremiah, I had just read that very passage a few days ago. Nowhere in that is it said that it is a divine commandment, rather it was a cultural tradition of the Rechabites.

Jeremiah 35:6 wrote:

But they answered, "We will drink no wine, for our ancestor Jonadab son of Rechab commanded us, "You shall never drink wine, neither you nor your children; nor shall you ever build a house, or sow seed; nor shall you plant a vineyard or even own one; but you shall live in tents all your days in the land where you reside."

Read the bold. This was not God's commandment, but the commandment of Jonadab son of Rechab.

God told Jeremiah to speak to these people, as these people had been faithful to their ancestors. However the Judeans had rejected God, and God was about to punish them. The Chaladeans and the Babylonians had beseiged Jerusalem. The point of the passage is right here:

Jeremiah 35:13-16 wrote:

Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: Go and say to the people of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, Can you not learn a lesson and obey my words? says the LORD. The command has been carried out that Jonadab son of Rechab gave to his decendants to drink no wine, and they drink none to this day, for they have obeyed their ancestors command. But I myself have spoken to you consistently, and you have not obeyed me. I have sent you all my servants, the prophets, sending them persistently saying "Turn now everyone of you from your evil way, and amend your doings, and do not go after other gods to serve them, and then you shall live in the land I gave to you and your ancestors". But you did not incline your ear to obey me.

God is comparing the obedience of the Rechabites to the disobedience of Israel. God did not command the Israelites not to drink.

As for John the Baptist and Luke chapter 1. This is another confusion. Note how God is speaking only about John. He is not saying that all of us will have to stop drinking.

Luke 1:15 wrote:

He must never drink wine or strong drink; even before his birth he will be filled with the Holy Spirit.

This is because John the Baptist was a Nazirite.

Many prophets were Nazirites, but it was not expected of the general population. This is mentioned in Numbers chapter 6:

Numbers 6:1-4 wrote:

The LORD spoke to Moses, saying: Speak to the Israelites and say to them: When either men or women make a special vow the vow of a nazirite, to separate themselves to the LORD, they shall seperate themselves from wine and strong drink; they shall drink no wine vinegar or other vinegar, and shall not drink any grape juice of drink grapes, fresh or dried. All their days as nazirites they shall eat nothing that is produced of the grape-vine, not even the seeds or the skins.

If drinking was prohibited why was Christ's first miracle to turn water into wine (John chapter 2), or why does David praise wine in the Psalms as something that "gladdens the heart" (Psalm 104:15)? You have to ask questions sometimes and look for the context in Biblical passages. To get a deeper understanding of a Biblical passage you need to look around it too.

Reading in context is very important when reading the Bible. Some passages relate to others, and some seem like something on a first glance but you have to read further to understand the context.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I'm sorry did you explain it ? It must be buried somewhere in all that fanatic rhetoric.
No, my question boils down to: Why, if God loves you does he throw you into hell for not following his rules that he made up.

God is never going to throw me into Hell. I've accepted His offer.

Romans 10:13 wrote:

For, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved"

We aren't saved by following rules. We are saved by believing in Jesus. Following His commandments comes after forgiveness, and we follow His commandments because we love Him. Nobody has ever been saved from the Law. Man is saved by His faith.

Romans 3:20 wrote:

For 'no human being will be justified in His sight' by deeds proscribed by the law, for through the law comes knowledge of sin. But now irrespective of the law, the righteousness of God has been disclosed, and is attested by the law and the prophets, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.

Righteousness comes through faith not by works. However faith must bear fruit, works come from faith, but we are not saved by it.

Romans 4:3 wrote:

For what does the Scripture say? 'Abraham believed God and it was reckoned onto Him righteousness.

We are not justified by the law, but through belief in salvation. If you do not believe in Christ, your sins have not and will not be forgiven according to the Bible.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You have absolutely no proof that God exists yet you seem to live in a dreamy wonderland full of make believe friends that have the power to torture your soul.

I have no reason to believe it is a dreamworld. I would have held the same skepticism as you did before God clicked, and God made sense with me. God was a reality that I had never known before.

I have no absolute proof for God, that's true. However, I do have indication. I have things that suggest to me that God is more likely to exist than not. Many many people have argued why they believe God is more probable than not such as C.S Lewis, William Lane Craig, Lee Strobel, Ravi Zacharias and so on. It is not hard to find people who can show you these things, it is up to you whether you want to see them.

If you do not want to find God, you will not find Him. However, if you do, and if you are open minded, you most certainly will, like I did. The ball is in your court.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

And what of Jews, Muslims, Hindus etc.
Do they go to hell because they didn't accept Christ ?

That is up to God. However the Bible seems to suggest that if you have heard the Gospel and reject it that one will not be saved.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Jews, Muslims, Hindus deserve to go to hell for the sin of not worshipping Christ ? How can you consider that fair ? How can you say they are not strict when you yourself have fallen short of them are you are a devout Christian ?

I'm not the one who decides who deserves to go to Hell. God is. According to God's standards we have all sinned, and we are all guilty before Him. There are two options.

1) Accept the price that Jesus Christ paid on the cross.
2) Attempt to pay the price yourself.

As for me falling short of God's rules. Sure I have. However, they are far from strict, if all you have to do is accept that you are wrong, and accept that Jesus Christ was the truth like He has proclaimed Himself to be, and that God the Father is the Creator and Sustainer of the world to be saved that is not strict. That is the best news that the world has ever heard infact.

That post took me a long time to write :pac: