Inheritance

LegacyUser · 10-07-2009 1:30pm

kiwikid wrote: »

with respect you don't know that for certain. If you hand over your farm lock stock / fair and square it can be sold or leased and there is nothing you can do about it.

Remember "a son is a son 'til he takes a wife" perhaps your golden boy will tell you what you want to hear and then finds a girl who will not tolerate the smell of slurry / silage in her house. It happens.

As for the question that remains unanswered - will your husband be willing to take a hands off approach when he hands over the farm? will the daughter be expected to mind the parents in their old age when independent living gets too much?

Op here. I dont know if he will be able to take a hands off approach. The place wont be signed over to anyone while Im still alive anyway. Thats certain. I doubt she would mind us in our old age knowing that they were going to be left everything. I wouldnt expect her too as I think who gets most should have to do the minding. Thats only fair.

The_Conductor · 10-07-2009 1:39pm

Unregistered wrote: »

Op here. I dont know if he will be able to take a hands off approach. The place wont be signed over to anyone while Im still alive anyway. Thats certain. I doubt she would mind us in our old age knowing that they were going to be left everything. I wouldnt expect her too as I think who gets most should have to do the minding. Thats only fair.

The point I and others have made on this thread- is that it was a legitimate expectation in bygone days that the person taking over the farm would look after their parents in their old age- but that this simply doesn't happen anymore.

As pointed out above- what happens when your elder son gets married and his wife decides she is or is not willing to do many of the things you are expecting of your son.

There are far too many assumptions being made by almost everyone in this situation.......

iguana · 10-07-2009 3:13pm

smccarrick wrote: »

As pointed out above- what happens when your elder son gets married and his wife decides she is or is not willing to do many of the things you are expecting of your son.

Indeed, he could very easily fall in love with someone from a different country and emigrate, or with someone who has no intention of spending weekends on a farm. He himself may find that as a married parent working full-time the last thing on earth he wants to do at weekends is manage a farm. What he wants now is absolutely no indication of what he will want 10 years from now.

The Corinthian · 10-07-2009 3:47pm

Interesting discussion, and when I first started reading it, I must say that I was appalled by the apparent sexism.

Of course things may not be so simple; after all, some practical (if fundamentally traditional) reasons have been voiced for leaving it to the sons. Additionally, it may be that the father genuinely believes that they would make better farmers, regardless of gender. We can't simply assume blind sexism.

Inheritance, I've noticed, tends to be based upon "adequately providing" for one's dependants. For a start, this means that he may leave the farm to his sons, but as long as he leaves adequate compensation to his daughters too, then it's fair. We do not know if this is the case.

Additionally, we are not fully aware of the circumstances. For example, imagine two children. One leaves home and makes a life for themselves and the other one never moves out. Should they both get an equal share? After all, one may argue that the latter child has already spent some of their inheritance, as they have been supported throughout adulthood.

I'm not suggesting any of this is the case here, only that these things are often far more complicated than they first appear.

10-07-2009 4:14pm

Unregistered wrote: »

Op here. I dont know if he will be able to take a hands off approach. The place wont be signed over to anyone while Im still alive anyway. Thats certain.

Even if you live to be well into your 80's or 90's [which touch wood in todays medical world is not improbable] ?
Thats a big ask if they have no profit from it other than what might be in a will [a Will that a person would worry about being changed everytime ye have a disagreement]

think who gets most should have to do the minding. Thats only fair.

I disagree.All your children should put whatever effort they are able, into accomadating your needs when you are old and infirm within reason.
Anything less is definitely unfair in my opinion.

the corinthian wrote:

it may be that the father genuinely believes that they would make better farmers, regardless of gender. We can't simply assume blind sexism.

Subliminably or ingrained or otherwise,thats at the root of a lot of the tradition I've been talking about.
They think it's not a womanly occupation.

LegacyUser · 10-07-2009 4:33pm

We keep talking about the 'children' here like they're infants. All four of them are grown adults.

Why not let them decide how the inheritance should be shared?

Point out that you want it to stay the Murphy (or whatever) farm, and that you cannot divide it as 170 acres is hardly enough to support one family, let alone split two or even four ways.

Tell them that if one of them has a burning passion to inherit it all, they need to come back now, go to ag college, get their green cert, and generally show willing.

They are adults right? Forget you and your husband playing Big Daddy Patriarch. They are grown-ups, find out what they consider fair.

(I really don't get why one man is deciding the fate of his wife and four adult children. You're a family. It's a family farm. Make a family decision. If you can't trust them to discuss this rationally how can you trust them to manage the land when you're gone?)

LegacyUser · 10-07-2009 4:59pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Even if you live to be well into your 80's or 90's [which touch wood in todays medical world is not improbable] ?
Thats a big ask if they have no profit from it other than what might be in a will [a Will that a person would worry about being changed everytime ye have a disagreement] I disagree.All your children should put whatever effort they are able, into accomadating your needs when you are old and infirm within reason.
Anything less is definitely unfair in my opinion. Subliminably or ingrained or otherwise,thats at the root of a lot of the tradition I've been talking about.
They think it's not a womanly occupation.

Op here. Thanks for all your replies. Yeah Il send her in your direction, then she cant complain about no land:L.

Well I dont think that her looking after us will happen not while she feels so strongly. I cant see her changing or my husband. I have done all I can but neither see the other's viewpoint. If she falls out with her father there is no more I can do. She has already made it very clear to him that she is not happy with his decision and he will also have to respect hers. I dont think anything else can be done. She says she will move out in a few months once she starts work so this will either help or make things worse.

The_Conductor · 10-07-2009 5:33pm

Unregistered wrote: »

she will move out in a few months once she starts work so this will either help or make things worse.

She will become far more entrenched in her opinions and more intransient- and very possibly feel that she has been driven from the family home.........

skooterblue · 10-07-2009 10:35pm

kiwikid wrote: »

.

Remember "a son is a son 'til he takes a wife" perhaps your golden boy will tell you what you want to hear and then finds a girl who will not tolerate the smell of slurry / silage in her house. It happens.

As for the question that remains unanswered - will your husband be willing to take a hands off approach when he hands over the farm? will the daughter be expected to mind the parents in their old age when independent living gets too much?

You see its hard for farmers to meet wives. We need to find people of our own background, who will understand there are going to be no romantic dates in the spring with the caving, why tractors need to run 16 hours a day during silage. This is why we have Macra na feirme to "weed out the buyers from the spyers, the needy from the greedy and those shopping from those shoplifting". I couldnt possibly see myself for many reasons being with a person from an urban background because she could never understand mine.

Oh just because you hand over the farm, you can never leave the farm.

As a matter of interest there seem to be two camps here. those who know how a farm runs, season change, what the EU's policy on farming is, what a green cert is and the significance of it. And well those holy joes who are politically correct, shinny shoes who wouldnt know a bale of straw from an AI straw. who think the FAI has something to do with football.

I work for a multi national company, have a degree in medical engineering. Dont have a green cert yet (as I havent been given permission to get one). from a long line of farmers. I hope to inhertit my uncles farms that I have worked on for the last 17 years since I was 15.
Who is next?

skooterblue · 10-07-2009 10:43pm

smccarrick wrote: »

She will become far more entrenched in her opinions and more intransient- and very possibly feel that she has been driven from the family home.........

what a load of codswallop. She is all gob and no substance. its laughable to think she would leave the farm and not come back. the best she will do is move out of home which might be the best thing for her. Once she finds out she is not in control of the situation she will calm down and see the world as it is. There is no reason she cant live on the farm until one of the boys gets married or she gets married. If anyone doesnt believe me try living with a couple that are not your parents!!

She just needs a dose of maturity and a realisation that they as a family are growing up and have to leave the nest at some time. We all were living away from home permanently before the age of 23. No one only her has talked about leaving, its her own decision and wait till she moves out she wont last on her own with out her family. Farm families are close knit, where everyone depends on each other for the running of the farm.

LegacyUser · 10-07-2009 11:07pm

skooterblue wrote: »

what a load of codswallop. She is all gob and no substance. its laughable to think she would leave the farm and not come back. the best she will do is move out of home which might be the best thing for her. Once she finds out she is not in control of the situation she will calm down and see the world as it is. There is no reason she cant live on the farm until one of the boys gets married or she gets married. If anyone doesnt believe me try living with a couple that are not your parents!!

She just needs a dose of maturity and a realisation that they as a family are growing up and have to leave the nest at some time. We all were living away from home permanently before the age of 23.

Op here. Thanks for everyones replies. She was in college till now and its not easy to rent while in college. She had a weekend job but last summer had to leave it to go on an internship to boost her chances of getting a good job when she left college and then was not able to get another job this year. However, that is not the issue. I have no problem supporting her through college as we did with the rest. She can live on the farm after the boys get married because they will be made build their own house.

skooterblue · 10-07-2009 11:10pm

kiwikid wrote: »

Sb,
i would not say it was the same situations for the following reasons,
- Older son got job because you have to wait until a family farm is given to you or else there is no livelyhood to be had. I mean say a 170 acre farm does it support the owners their dependants and the oldest son on a living wage? i don't think so - its been pointed out already anyway its not viable to have both owners at the same time.
- The older son went to ag college (which to me qualifies for one thing only) with a view of taking over the farm, he went out and managed another farm locally and helped on the family farm while his father reared the remaining children on the land. I think the father is wrong in this situation as he raised both to believe they would have the farm. just as op seems to have reared his daughter to think part of the farm was going to be hers - its probably a bitter realization at 20 to think your father thought you were good enough to work the business but you don't have balls so not one scrap can be yours. But that never happened to me thankfully - at best looking back at it as a girl I was probably reared to be a farmers wife moreso than a farmer! my parents were very clear who the farm was going to so nobody was under any illusions from start to finish. But then our farm was bought rather than inherited so i think that made a difference in the approach.

I am totally lost. Agri college is 18 months. 40 years ago 170 acres was a fantastic farm, in the 80's it kept familes going. Today it would not sustain a modern family. In 15 years it is questionable if it will even be viable at that size. There is NO reason why you cant have two courses done. Many of my friends have the green cert just done for tax purposes. I mean the green cert isnt rocket science and is equivalent to the first year of study at an IT. to complete the course all you need are some practical skills, farming knowledege PC skills and some common sense.

Political correctness has no place on a farm. Do as your told, like it or lump it. Your parent did the right thing

kiwikid · 11-07-2009 6:04pm

skooterblue wrote: »

I am totally lost. Agri college is 18 months. 40 years ago 170 acres was a fantastic farm, in the 80's it kept familes going. Today it would not sustain a modern family. In 15 years it is questionable if it will even be viable at that size. There is NO reason why you cant have two courses done. Many of my friends have the green cert just done for tax purposes. I mean the green cert isnt rocket science and is equivalent to the first year of study at an IT. to complete the course all you need are some practical skills, farming knowledege PC skills and some common sense.

Political correctness has no place on a farm. Do as your told, like it or lump it. Your parent did the right thing

this was not in my family thankfully! But - agri college to me is not just 18 months if you do the farm apprentice course don't you have to do apprenticeships for nearly 2/3 years etc?
Who has to give you permission to do the green cert? wouldn't you have been a bit wiser to have done it when it was online off of your own bat and not waited for permission. And judging from some of the beaut's i know who have achieved it - it surely is not rocket science:D

kiwikid · 11-07-2009 6:13pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Even if you live to be well into your 80's or 90's [which touch wood in todays medical world is not improbable] ?
Thats a big ask if they have no profit from it other than what might be in a will [a Will that a person would worry about being changed everytime ye have a disagreement] I disagree.All your children should put whatever effort they are able, into accomadating your needs when you are old and infirm within reason.

I disagree - parents have their own lives and their children are not obliged to take care of them. Tradition me eye - and I am reared on a farm and my mother would say the same thing. Why would it be ok to have the one on the free farm and livelyhood handing over the same as the one on checkout in tesco for the nursing home when the parents had the price of their nursing home if they had to sell their farm or schelp of it? If you get the farm you get the whole deal in my book - and thats between the two who did the deal father and son.

Unregistered wrote: »

She can live on the farm after the boys get married because they will be made build their own house.

i think this is the actual issue. You rear your children, do your best and let them off - you should only have reared one to have been the taking over son or perhaps two and decide at the point of handover who was going to do it and leave them both under no illusions that they needed a supplimentary income because farming income is heavily dependent on factors beyond the farmers control and a second job or outlet is crucial if you want your child to have a comfortable living from the farm - hense the number of teachers/auctioneers/undertakers etc who own farms.
But if you think you can make them do anything they will just as easily turn around and make you do things when you are old and infirm... and thats where it believe it always comes from!

11-07-2009 7:05pm

kiwikid wrote: »

I disagree - parents have their own lives and their children are not obliged to take care of them. Tradition me eye - and I am reared on a farm and my mother would say the same thing. Why would it be ok to have the one on the free farm and livelyhood handing over the same as the one on checkout in tesco for the nursing home when the parents had the price of their nursing home if they had to sell their farm or schelp of it? If you get the farm you get the whole deal in my book - and thats between the two who did the deal father and son.

It's called caring about your parents...
It's a universal principle..not just farming.
I never mentioned nursing homes.
I'm talking about calling in to see them,spending some time with them,driving them to bingo,doing errands for them etc etc etc

Spending a few hours with them on rotation after that fall that broke their hip, while paddy [or jenifer

) is unavoidably tending the land.

There are those who of course would be "once every 6 months or whenever it can't be avoided" visitors to their parents in their old age at home.
Those type of people are low lifes in my book though.

The "big ask" I'm referrring to by the way in the post you quoted is about a situation where the parents expected paddy [or jenifer] junior to work the farm without ever owning it untill the parents died.

iguana · 11-07-2009 7:59pm

skooterblue wrote: »

what a load of codswallop. She is all gob and no substance. its laughable to think she would leave the farm and not come back. the best she will do is move out of home which might be the best thing for her. Once she finds out she is not in control of the situation she will calm down and see the world as it is.

Oh right, so there aren't thousands and thousands of families who are torn apart over wills and never speak again? Or many, many children who leave and never speak to their parent's again. You are living in a fantasy land if you don't accept that there is a vary real chance that the OP may lose her daughter over this. Hopefully she won't, but it is a strong possibility where controversial wills are concerned.

skooterblue · 11-07-2009 8:43pm

kiwikid wrote: »

this was not in my family thankfully! But - agri college to me is not just 18 months if you do the farm apprentice course don't you have to do apprenticeships for nearly 2/3 years etc?
Who has to give you permission to do the green cert? wouldn't you have been a bit wiser to have done it when it was online off of your own bat and not waited for permission. And judging from some of the beaut's i know who have achieved it - it surely is not rocket science:D

Even if you are doing on line you still need farm to take farm accounts from and a farmer to "supervise". If I decided to do my green cert without uncles approval, it would be worse than bringing a U-haul trailer to a funeral. why it is worse is because it means you have already thought and made up your mind and are preparing for his death, which is a very scary concept. My uncle was always generous to SVP, in 3 and 4 figure numbers. One day he got a call from trocaire telling him that they were sending out a form allowing him to donate money to them in his will. This 70 year old man was so upset he ate the face off the wan on the phone and then swore never to donate to charity again. Do you thing me asking him to do my green cert without his advice would be presuming that he without doubt will leave the farm to me. To do you green cert part-time you must have past at least the first year of a level 6 qualification.

skooterblue · 11-07-2009 8:50pm

iguana wrote: »

Oh right, so there aren't thousands and thousands of families who are torn apart over wills and never speak again? Or many, many children who leave and never speak to their parent's again. You are living in a fantasy land if you don't accept that there is a vary real chance that the OP may lose her daughter over this. Hopefully she won't, but it is a strong possibility where controversial wills are concerned.

Yes these thing do happen but they happen to people in later life. the daughter is young and hot headed and headstrong, as I was in my youth. She is barely out of college, is green and naive to industry and what the world holds. No one has asked her to leave she is throwing up all the barriers here. She is the only person who can take them down again. I also believe you should never give in to emotional blackmail or any other kind. That is what emotional blackmail is isnt it? when you play on someones emotions to coerce them into doing what you want?

iguana · 11-07-2009 9:21pm

skooterblue wrote: »

I also believe you should never give in to emotional blackmail or any other kind. That is what emotional blackmail is isnt it? when you play on someones emotions to coerce them into doing what you want?

I don't believe it is emotional blackmail on the part of the OP's daughter, no. I think she is feeling unvalued and angry and responding as such. She feels her father loves the farm more than her. And this could very likely destroy the family. Not all families that fall out, fall out later in life. Plenty of families fall out early in life and never fix things and over less than this.

flynnser19 · 12-07-2009 1:08am

my granda died leavign alot of land to his youngest son and the other 12 children in the family are bitter and they are all talking behind each others backs some dont talk to him or anything???if i were you id divide it evenly and tell your husband to cop on!!we're not living in the dark ages!!realistically if none of them farm it its all gonna be sold no matter who you leave it to so be fair and split it evenly

LegacyUser · 12-07-2009 2:40am

skooterblue wrote: »

I have never seen a girl in 25 years do a bit of work on a farm to deserve it.

Seriously? I've been doing the vast majority of the work on my families farm since I was about 14. I must be a truly rare individual ;o)

The Sweeper · 12-07-2009 3:08am

OP, if the farm is going to be run as a working business consideration, can you take a business approach? E.g. will it run for a profit each year?

So, say one of your four kids is going to run this business. In return for that, he gets to live in the house and gets a higher share of the annual profit (if there is one?!) of the business.

Get a professional to value the farm. Split that value into fifths. The one who lives and works the farm gets two fifths of the annual profit. The four kids each contribute one quarter of the annual expense of the property. The three who aren't working it get a fifth of the profit annually each. They share equal title on the caveat that nobody may ever make anyone else sell up.

There must be a way to offer the kids an equal share along with an equal responsibility? You may find that the idea of having to invest annually and having a responsibility means your unhappy daughter is willing to sell out her share to the others...

The_Conductor · 12-07-2009 8:02am

iguana wrote: »

I don't believe it is emotional blackmail on the part of the OP's daughter, no. I think she is feeling unvalued and angry and responding as such. She feels her father loves the farm more than her. And this could very likely destroy the family. Not all families that fall out, fall out later in life. Plenty of families fall out early in life and never fix things and over less than this.

Irish people do have a preoccupation with property totally unparalleled on a global scale. Of course a lot of it has to do with our historic disinheritance by the Brits- but some decisions the Irish have made of their own accord since independence have only cemented this mindset.

I do agree with what you're saying though.

Skooterblue- I'd more than willingly introduce you to my mother and sisters. They have done more farm work down the years than many of our neighbours ever have. Different people do different tasks and chores according to their abilities. On a sheep farm though- its far more often one of the girls out helping at 3-4AM in the morning during lambing- than anyone else. If you genuinely believe women do not play a very important role in the running of a farm- you are very sadly deluded.

Vis-a-vis green certs- I did mine years ago, over a 4 year period, with zero thoughts whatsoever concerning inheritance rights. To be honest- I was interested in doing some of the courses in the Franciscans in Mountbellew- and participation was exclusively for greencert holders. In our context- it is our parents stated intention to leave the family farm jointly to all the children. Some of my siblings are abroad- all over the world- so be it. That is their choice. I don't do a lot of fulltime farming myself these days either- but I do intend to ultimately get back into farming again (by god, no sheep though......)

The mindset being displayed by the OP's hubby- is alive and well, and we are deluded if we think otherwise. The notion of subdividing a farm- is not seen as a viable option on so many different levels. History is against us. The famine may have started over 150 years ago- but one of the problems was subdivision of holdings to the extent that potatoes were the only crop capable of feeding families was the humble spud. We have very long memories.......

I do think the OP's daughter has a right to feel that her father is being sexist by delibertly excluding her and her daughter from the prospect of inheriting the family farm. I do also understand where her father is coming from.

It really is a clash of different generations and different expectations.

I don't think the OP's daughter is going to be happy with any decision her father is willing to make- come what may. Perhaps in another 20 or 30 years time, we may have moved to a point where most other countries are at.

I don't think there is an issue with the farmer not wanting the farm to be subdivided- the issue is with his absolute refusal to countenance a daughter inheritting the family farm. I can fully understand why he would wish it not subdivided- I can not as readily come to terms with why there is an automatic expectation that a brother who has made a life for himself elsewhere will automatically return and willingly take over the reigns as his father imagines.......

skooterblue · 12-07-2009 11:26am

flynnser19 wrote: »

my granda died leavign alot of land to his youngest son and the other 12 children in the family are bitter and they are all talking behind each others backs some dont talk to him or anything???if i were you id divide it evenly and tell your husband to cop on!!we're not living in the dark ages!!realistically if none of them farm it its all gonna be sold no matter who you leave it to so be fair and split it evenly

When the British and the French were carving up Persia at the treaty of Vesaillies in 1918. Col. TE Lawrence (Laurence of Arabia) argued that Persia should be feudal lords ruled by one leader King Faisel. Instead the split the whole place up, cos they were arguing among each other. The Jews slipped in and got the best part of Israel. Now we have the sham known as the middle east, where you have tribes of illiterate nomads getting excited about the word infidel.

Same on the Farms. you get a family who all put their lifes on hold for the sake of a few acres. they fight over the scraps of life while they ignore the feast that is college, getting married, choosing who to marry rather than who looks best to marry, passing over job promotions to move away, missing out on new business ideas. For what? So some batchelor uncle leaves the farm to someone he never really liked anyway.

"Grab, seize, inheritance", "will, quota, road frontage" sounds like comments Father Jack would make. How much do you love your farm if you were leaving it? Would you give your farm to one strong individual who would be hard working and wise to see it continue several generations or would you leave it several individuals who of various skill sets would have difficultly leaving it to the next generation? now your farm, lifes work is fragmented, lost and that is it.

skooterblue · 12-07-2009 12:01pm

smccarrick wrote: »

Skooterblue- If you genuinely believe women do not play a very important role in the running of a farm- you are very sadly deluded.

Vis-a-vis green certs- I did mine years ago, over a 4 year period, with zero thoughts whatsoever concerning inheritance rights.

I don't think the OP's daughter is going to be happy with any decision her father is willing to make- come what may. Perhaps in another 20 or 30 years time, we may have moved to a point where most other countries are at.

I don't think there is an issue with the farmer not wanting the farm to be subdivided- the issue is with his absolute refusal to countenance a daughter inheritting the family farm.

I believe Women have a hugely important role in the farm keeping accounts, involved in the decision making and supporting their husband. I respect that but I have reservation. I couldnt Imagine me giving my farm to my daughter when the time comes and letting another MAN who strayed in take over MY
farm, which he has no blood right to or has never worked the farm. Before anyone shouts "Neanderthal", its my farm and I can do what ever the hell I want with MY land.

Why would anyone who had no intention of inheriting a farm do a course in farming that she had already covered from the time she was able to pull on wellies? The only reason do the green cert is so they can inherit the farm without having to pay stamp duty and buy more land without stamp duty. A green cert will not make you a better farmer, teach you new skills or give you a new outlook.

I dont see the husband changing his mind on subdiving the farm without compromising common sense. The daughter has lost her footing between tradition and modern feminism.

skooterblue · 12-07-2009 12:19pm

Minesajackdaniels wrote: »

OP, if the farm is going to be run as a working business consideration, can you take a business approach? E.g. will it run for a profit each year?

So, say one of your four kids is going to run this business. In return for that, he gets to live in the house and gets a higher share of the annual profit (if there is one?!) of the business.

Get a professional to value the farm. Split that value into fifths. The one who lives and works the farm gets two fifths of the annual profit. The four kids each contribute one quarter of the annual expense of the property. The three who aren't working it get a fifth of the profit annually each. They share equal title on the caveat that nobody may ever make anyone else sell up.

There must be a way to offer the kids an equal share along with an equal responsibility? You may find that the idea of having to invest annually and having a responsibility means your unhappy daughter is willing to sell out her share to the others...

Way to complex!!! Seen this happen at work, "Work hard and we'll give you all profit sharing". Who gets to make decisions? This is the Plan for the year, oh and
we need a new tractor,
Ca-ching there is minus €70,000.
Now not everyone believes we need a new tractor
which one should be buy?
what can we afford what is quality?
Not out of my share
I cant get off work for the silage
Who is going work the second tractor during the baling?
I want to go on holidays with my friends this year in August!!

Seen it all happen. A farm in Partnership is hard enough why bring a third person into it. the partnership collapses everyone blames each other and the farm is lost and the solicitor gets the fat of the farm. and about the profit its like that scene in "oh brother, Where art thou?"
"Would you like some gopher?"
"No Thankee kindly, why a gopher would only suit to wet my appetite"

I said that I have never seen a woman under 35 do any work on a farm that warranted her inheriting it. Nowdays as from 15 years ago women have the opportunity with free education to do any any course they have points for. That they didnt have 20 years ago, due to social change.

The majority of girls who go doing the green cert is because they are expected to do it for tax purposes, they are doing the nat cert in Horticulture as a fast step to land scaping, or they are using the Equine course as a stepping stone to somewhere else.

LegacyUser · 12-07-2009 1:58pm

skooterblue wrote: »

I believe Women have a hugely important role in the farm keeping accounts, involved in the decision making and supporting their husband. I respect that but I have reservation. I couldnt Imagine me giving my farm to my daughter when the time comes and letting another MAN who strayed in take over MY
farm, which he has no blood right to or has never worked the farm. Before anyone shouts "Neanderthal", its my farm and I can do what ever the hell I want with MY land.

I thought you said you worked in a factory skooterblue?

skooterblue wrote: »

Farming is not a job like general op in a factory or working in the civil service. I am not looking down on these jobs either because I work at a similar job myself.

You need to get out more if you've never seen a woman work hard enough on a farm to deserve it. I am any other commenters know plenty of women who've 'earned' their farm. Dress it up in 'tradition' all you want - your point of view is definitely a minority among farming people these days.

The more I think about this, the less sorry I am for the OP. Look, you have brought this whole mess entirely on yourself. The time to be settling who would inherit was YEARS ago. In my family and every family I know, it was plain since we were teenagers or even before who had the interest and the heart for the work. Our land is going to my middle brother, not because he's a boy but because he's always been the most interested, he's worked alongside my parents since he was 14, he was never a great one for academics. The rest of us don't have a problem with it because we know he's best suited to it and he's worked for it all his life. My parents supported the rest of us in our own ambitions and there's no bad blood.

Why the hell are you only having this conversation now, when your children are in their late twenties? Why haven't you always been thinking about it and seeing which of your children are suited to it and training them up? I'm sorry, I do feel for you because it can't be easy to have such divisions in your family, but it's you and your husband's own fault this is ripping everyone apart, the issue should have been settled years ago.

I wonder what exactly the previous bad blood is? You mentioned you treat your daughters differently (worse) than your sons? How exactly? Some different treatment can be understandable - they're different people after all - but some isn't, and it would help to get a feeling of why your daughter is so upset. Some commenters feel she's just stirring trouble, and maybe she is, but it sounds to me like the parents are the real root of the trouble.

LegacyUser · 12-07-2009 3:30pm

Op here.

Skooterblue: Your mindset regards not leaving the farm to a daughter because another man if she gets married would be on the farm is also my husbands. But even if people leave farms to sons it doesnt mean it will always stay in the family due to not having children, divorce etc. Noone can predict where things will end. As for women not working harding enough to deserve a farm you have never met my daughter. Thats your viewpoint but not one I or my husband would share about our daughter not working hard enough. Thanks for your input though.

My daughter has calmed down a bit. It is an issue that I have no doubt will rise again. I have done my best. I cant get my husband to change his mind or my daughter but if they do fall out over it he cant be surprised. I just hope that wont happen.

skooterblue · 12-07-2009 8:24pm

Unregistered wrote: »

I thought you said you worked in a factory skooterblue?

You need to get out more if you've never seen a woman work hard enough on a farm to deserve it. I am any other commenters know plenty of women who've 'earned' their farm. Dress it up in 'tradition' all you want - your point of view is definitely a minority among farming people these days.

Some commenters feel she's just stirring trouble, and maybe she is, but it sounds to me like the parents are the real root of the trouble.

My farm - the farm will never pay me to work it 4 days a weeks, that is why this arrangement suit the both of us.
What happened if the land was promised to someone who had a drug problem? Dont look shocked, or no not in my family. I know a family one boy and girl. He is a hash smoking junkie and she is the daughter with alcoholic tendancies. Whic one would you leave the farm to?

what would you do if you gave the farm to someone who wasnt interested? Do you realise the burden you are placing on that person? The tradition the legacy the future? As for girls working on a farm Every girl I know would rather be working in an office than working with a "dirty smelly farmer". Any girl you meet not from a agricultural backgound is a gold digger. How do I know they ask how much the farm is valued at!! instead of how they are going to buy extra quota. Dont believe me? It happened to my cousin that he got caught by a girl and she wanted no reconciliation only money. Many years ago she got £50k. My neighbour payed out €450k to get out of another relationship to keep his farm. There are different breeds of people for different jobs. I could never see my self removed from the rural life. I could never see my self working in a pub or being an international maintenance technician. because I am not cut out for that but I couldnt see anyone else fitting into my life style either.

I do work for a very large multinational company that pay me to work long hours 4 days a week. Unfortuately it doesnt pay me over time and I have semi dependent uncles (they are 70-odd year olds working a farm they think they are 25 year olds). This is where I fit in.
My farm - the farm will never pay me to work it 4 days a weeks, that is why this arrangement suit the both of us.

Your daughter will never get the farm, she has to deal with her social limitations, I accepted long ago I was never going to be Taioseach due to my diplomatic, social skills and socail standing and I accepted it. these are based on her sexuality and her social standing on the farm. While she is building up angst, she would be better off going down to Macra and having browse through wants on offer there. She coudl be a brilliant farmers wife on a very successful farm. Give her a few years. some success in a career and some maturity and then she will be ok. I told you when it came to moving out he bark was far worse than her bite.

Why are people who are not the OP going anonymous on this topic? I have never been afraid to show who I am or where I am from

kiwikid · 12-07-2009 8:32pm

skooterblue wrote: »

I believe Women have a hugely important role in the farm keeping accounts, involved in the decision making and supporting their husband.

your farm obviously is not a sheep farm where the dainty wee hands of a girl come in might useful...unless of course you have beautifully slender hands yourself or fancy paying the vet to come out unnecessarily.

I agree with the poster in whose family it was well known growing up - same in our house too. And most of the families i know.

Many people i know did the agri college apprenticeship / green cert because they loved farming/ agriculture/ managing farm units - not just to be in with a shout when someone popped their cloggs.

skooterblue · 12-07-2009 8:44pm

kiwikid wrote: »

Many people i know did the agri college apprenticeship / green cert because they loved farming/ agriculture/ managing farm units - not just to be in with a shout when someone popped their cloggs.

I am from a sheep farm on my fathers side. Yes those people who did the green cert with no interest in agriculture/horticulture/equine studies are called Property developers.

kiwikid · 12-07-2009 9:22pm

As for girls working on a farm Every girl I know would rather be working in an office than working with a "dirty smelly farmer". Any girl you meet not from a agricultural backgound is a gold digger. How do I know they ask how much the farm is valued at!! instead of how they are going to buy extra quota. Dont believe me? It happened to my cousin that he got caught by a girl and she wanted no reconciliation only money. Many years ago she got £50k. My neighbour payed out €450k to get out of another relationship to keep his farm. [/quote]

things have come on since i was being chatted up by hardcore farmers like yerself (obviously worth a shout since i was a farmers daughter...) one mention of what their quota was or what class of road frontage had them had them gone like a hot snot!

Your cousin sounds like someone special. She probably deserved more, and as for your neighbour if he married someone he probably should have mentioned to the priest that the vows for farmers are different "whats yours is mine and whats mine is me own"... like it or not everyone on the planet is in 2009, even farmers.

skooterblue · 12-07-2009 9:31pm

kiwikid wrote: »

Your cousin sounds like someone special. She probably deserved more, and as for your neighbour if he married someone he probably should have mentioned to the priest that the vows for farmers are different "whats yours is mine and whats mine is me own"... like it or not everyone on the planet is in 2009, even farmers.

My cousin was 17 and she was 22, and popped out two kids for him. I dont feel sorry for him, I think he was stupid and naive. As for my neighbour he was due to marry a woman who had 3 kids by two different men and not in my opinion the brightest shilling in the box. And to think his father gave out to me for giving up "my proud heritage working in a factory" .

LegacyUser · 12-07-2009 9:55pm

Op here: Its interesting to see the thoughts of farmers and non farmers. Skooterblue: as for her not getting the farm thats not necessarily true. She might get it. i dont know cos its signed over to me in my husbands will so if anything was to happen to him I would be left to make the decision. I wouldnt base it on gender. I would base it on who I think deserved it.

As for other posters who said this issue should have being dealt with long before now. Its not as simple as that. what if one of my children doesnt do well for themselves maybe due to illhealth or something they might need the farm and house.

LegacyUser · 14-07-2009 3:16am

Hi,

There is no justification for the farmer to be allowed to act as he wishes, it is domineering and controlling. THe wider issue is that its a mans world in this home, and it is sexist and degrading to women. A real man would honour his wife and treat her as if its their home and ever decision made is made together.

The only good thing about this situation is that the tradition will die out because the children will not have the same values, to all the farmers who are justifying it, there will come a day where your precious land will be owned by strangers, this territorial attitude is obsessive.

but in this case something must be said to represent the womans voice.

OP by doing nothing about it and hoping you will out live you husband, you are acting like a victim of this patriarchal society, you have the right to challenge it, although you probably wont, but if you choose not to you are equally responsible for your daughters hurt, doing nothing is as bad IMO.

14-07-2009 11:54am

Unregistered wrote: »

Hi,

There is no justification for the farmer to be allowed to act as he wishes, it is domineering and controlling.

au contraire...The owner of the property has every legal right to do with it as he wishes.He may not sell the family home without the wifes consent though.
You seem to forget about property rights.Children have none while their owner parent is alive as they are not the owners of the property.Thats one thing that isn't mentioned here.
This farmer after looking after his legal obligations to his wife and having educated his children and reared them to 21 can quite validly leave the whole lot of the rest to the Vincent de paul lock stock and barrell if he wants to.
As can you or I.

THe wider issue is that its a mans world in this home, and it is sexist and degrading to women. A real man would honour his wife and treat her as if its their home and ever decision made is made together.

I doubt a tradition like that will completely die out Ever.
It's like religion and the ten commandments where they go on about not coveting another mans goods and another mans wife etc.

OP by doing nothing about it and hoping you will out live you husband, you are acting like a victim of this patriarchal society, you have the right to challenge it, although you probably wont, but if you choose not to you are equally responsible for your daughters hurt, doing nothing is as bad IMO.

You are missing some important facts outlined above.
The only thing the farmers wife can do if she doesnt own the property or have a half share...The only thing she can do to get her hand on some of it legally is through a divorce.
She won't get all of it or even half of it by that method and obviously the marriage is over then.

Some of the rubbish posted in this thread by you and others by the way is as silly as the attitudes that you are giving out about.

CDfm · 14-07-2009 12:56pm

Good on you OP and to your husband for discussing it.

I have come accross situations where farms have been inherited and sold so your husband wanting to keep the land together doesnt nesscessarily mean it will stay in the family.

A friends brother died recently and had left his property to his children. A very inventive and clever guy but they have an equal share and if they dont get on in partnership they can leave the partnership and be bought out by the others at market value. There is a stipulation too that if they dont agree within 12 months then the executor is to sell the property and divide it equally.

When you think about it it is very sensible and there is an incentive for them to get on as the value of the property as a business is worth more thanif it was broken up and sold. Only one of the kids is being difficult but even that was predictable-his late wife had predicted it years back when they put their wills together.

edit: I read lots of posts and people are very nieve on how progressive farmers are

LegacyUser · 15-07-2009 5:34am

Deleted User wrote: »

au contraire...The owner of the property has every legal right to do with it as he wishes.He may not sell the family home without the wifes consent though.
You seem to forget about property rights.Children have none while their owner parent is alive as they are not the owners of the property.Thats one thing that isn't mentioned here.
This farmer after looking after his legal obligations to his wife and having educated his children and reared them to 21 can quite validly leave the whole lot of the rest to the Vincent de paul lock stock and barrell if he wants to.
As can you or I.
I doubt a tradition like that will completely die out Ever.
It's like religion and the ten commandments where they go on about not coveting another mans goods and another mans wife etc.

You are missing some important facts outlined above.
The only thing the farmers wife can do if she doesnt own the property or have a half share...The only thing she can do to get her hand on some of it legally is through a divorce.
She won't get all of it or even half of it by that method and obviously the marriage is over then.

Some of the rubbish posted in this thread by you and others by the way is as silly as the attitudes that you are giving out about.

It is a society that is degrading and oppressive toward woman's values, My partner would never treat me like his home was not mine too even though it is in his name, the moral issue is for equality and fairness,

And in actually fact this kind of oppression is dying out, in the same way religion is in this country, there may be legal rights by the farmer and there may be a mindset that is supported in his community but it is wrong and damaging to the woman's value and role, and it needs to be challenged.

15-07-2009 8:26am

Unregistered wrote: »

It is a society that is degrading and oppressive toward woman's values, My partner would never treat me like his home was not mine too even though it is in his name, the moral issue is for equality and fairness,

And in actually fact this kind of oppression is dying out, in the same way religion is in this country, there may be legal rights by the farmer and there may be a mindset that is supported in his community but it is wrong and damaging to the woman's value and role, and it needs to be challenged.

In fairness I am aware of plenty of farmers,male farmers who have married into places and the husband has no rights to the property either other than the legal third.
What do you think of that? :rolleyes:
This thread does seem to attract militancy.

It is a fact that property rights are constitutionally protected here and world wide in democracies are sacrosanct.
Thats one issue thats barely touched on in this thread.
It is the parents decision and legally mostly the fathers in this particular case and getting his back up with noisy demands and threats of never speaking to him again is not the way to go.It will only entrench his position and help it go to the others-thats human nature.
Thats a universal principle thats usually ignored in situations like inheritance by the type of people who jump up and down screaming womens [or mens] rights.

For the record,my own Grandmothers husband died and she was left to rear 6 young children on a farm and managed pretty well.
However as touched on by the corinthian,it's not an occupation that many farmers would like to see their daughters go into as it's very rough on the body.
Personally I wouldn't be encouraging kids[unless I saw a real passion in it from them] to go into the business at all if they asked my advice given the way it's going un less the farm was very large,was fully kitted out and carried no debts.

LegacyUser · 15-07-2009 9:22am

Deleted User wrote: »

In fairness I am aware of plenty of farmers,male farmers who have married into places and the husband has no rights to the property either other than the legal third.
What do you think of that? :rolleyes:
This thread does seem to attract militancy.

It is a fact that property rights are constitutionally protected here and world wide in democracies are sacrosanct.
Thats one issue thats barely touched on in this thread.
It is the parents decision and legally mostly the fathers in this particular case and getting his back up with noisy demands and threats of never speaking to him again is not the way to go.It will only entrench his position and help it go to the others-thats human nature.
Thats a universal principle thats usually ignored in situations like inheritance by the type of people who jump up and down screaming womens [or mens] rights.

For the record,my own Grandmothers husband died and she was left to rear 6 young children on a farm and managed pretty well.
However as touched on by the corinthian,it's not an occupation that many farmers would like to see their daughters go into as it's very rough on the body.
Personally I wouldn't be encouraging kids[unless I saw a real passion in it from them] to go into the business at all if they asked my advice given the way it's going un less the farm was very large,was fully kitted out and carried no debts.

Both entitled to our opinions, i am commenting on this case at hand and the way the women are being treated unfairly in the home not even about the inheritance but the way the farmers wife is not having an equal say about decisions regarding their home and how she has expressed that the daughters were treated differently growing up because they were women,

you may feel it is just tough because the farmer has the right to do what he wants, this to me is the most childish and small minded behaviour demonstrated of the lot, the excuse that he is a traditional man is a cop out, I do not think that the mother is going to do anything about the situation but this case is still offensive to women.

Nevyn · 15-07-2009 9:53am

A farm is not just the land, a farm is an enity which needs to be taken care of and worked by people who have the gra for it and will put in the hours needed and have the knack and skill for it.

Tradionally it would got to one of the sons who would be the one who had been working the farm and learning the land and how it works but there is not reason why a daughter who had invested herself in the farm and learned all that she needed to could not look at taking it on that is providing she ended up with a partner who was also intrested and who understood the rigors of farming.

Lets face it the real reason women never got the farm was cos they get pregant and have kids and there is no way you can do the same level of work when 7 months pregant as a man or be up all night helping ewes give birth in the sleet and rain at that stage of pregnancy or indeed the 2/3 months after. Once there are kids the priority shifts.

Yes thankfully a farm that is doing well can get in a farm manager or have great hands on it who can take up the slack when that happens but not every farm is profitable enough. It's just the nature of farming.

Children have no garenteed rights to inhert anything from thier parents and a farmer who feels that he was entrusted with the farm when he inherted if he's worth a damn will want it to continue and flourish and will pick the best person as he sees it to ensure that happens and imho if thats a second cousin to his own kids who works and walks the land each day and has the gra for it then they should get the farm.

IF a daughter wants it and thinks she can take on and learn and prove herself to be more then able to run the farm then let her prove it the same as the sons and yes she does have an unequal footing due to her biology it's a fact of life.

15-07-2009 9:56am

Unregistered wrote: »

you may feel it is just tough because the farmer has the right to do what he wants, this to me is the most childish and small minded behaviour demonstrated of the lot, the excuse that he is a traditional man is a cop out, I do not think that the mother is going to do anything about the situation but this case is still offensive to women.

You speak as if the father is doing something unlawfull.
He is not.
What do you want? legislation to control peoples minds?
It's impossible to expect every parent to treat every child equally,it's not unique or indeed more prevalent on farms than anywhere else.

The tradition that this particular farmer wants to uphold is his right.
He has the right to choose

CDfm · 15-07-2009 9:57am

Unregistered wrote: »

Both entitled to our opinions, i am commenting on this case at hand and the way the women are being treated unfairly in the home not even about the inheritance but the way the farmers wife is not having an equal say about decisions regarding their home and how she has expressed that the daughters were treated differently growing up because they were women,

you may feel it is just tough because the farmer has the right to do what he wants, this to me is the most childish and small minded behaviour demonstrated of the lot, the excuse that he is a traditional man is a cop out, I do not think that the mother is going to do anything about the situation but this case is still offensive to women.

In fairness I think the gender issue is a bit of a red herring.

It would stand to reason that if they leave the land to their children as a working farm that they have to pick one and that excludes the others. The husband wants to leave it to someone who will work it or even who needs it and whose career hasn't gone to plan. Its like looking into the future and its also his lifes work and he wants it in the family as his legacy.

He may feel that neither daughter will take up farming. I am a man and I was once offered a farm and wild horses couldn't drag me to a cow calving-Ugh- or milking at 6 in the morning. THats the livestyle.

I think its more likely that none of the children will want to take up farming and its likely the farm will end up being sold. Thats probably an issue the OP's husband has to come to terms with.

Beruthiel · 15-07-2009 2:41pm

This thread is 10 pages long and I don't have time to read it all.

Were I in the OP's shoes, I'd wait till the prices went up a bit and sell the lot.
I'd then live the high life till I dropped dead, or at the very least, buy a nice little villa in the south of France, with a pool of course, and would spend my days lazing in the sun.
Problem solved.

btw
I have 3 sisters.
One of them lives near my parents.
She will be getting the house.
None of us have a problem with that. That house has been in the family for over a 100 years and my mother wants it to stay that way.
It always amuses me that people 'expect' handouts.

LegacyUser · 15-07-2009 6:07pm

CDfm wrote: »

In fairness I think the gender issue is a bit of a red herring.

It would stand to reason that if they leave the land to their children as a working farm that they have to pick one and that excludes the others. The husband wants to leave it to someone who will work it or even who needs it and whose career hasn't gone to plan. Its like looking into the future and its also his lifes work and he wants it in the family as his legacy.

He may feel that neither daughter will take up farming. I am a man and I was once offered a farm and wild horses couldn't drag me to a cow calving-Ugh- or milking at 6 in the morning. THats the livestyle.

I think its more likely that none of the children will want to take up farming and its likely the farm will end up being sold. Thats probably an issue the OP's husband has to come to terms with.

Dont know if you read the thread but the mother said that her daughter was well capable of running the farm and she was working on it at present, but the father has said he is leaving it to the two boys even though they do not want to work on the farm and may even sell it themselves in the future. The reason is because she is a woman and the father wants it to go to the men to keep the family name, she has a passion for farming but is ignored, the mother also feels it is unfair on her two daughters, and it has caused a division in the family.

15-07-2009 10:19pm

Unregistered wrote: »

Dont know if you read the thread but the mother said that her daughter was well capable of running the farm and she was working on it at present, but the father has said he is leaving it to the two boys even though they do not want to work on the farm and may even sell it themselves in the future. The reason is because she is a woman and the father wants it to go to the men to keep the family name, she has a passion for farming but is ignored, the mother also feels it is unfair on her two daughters, and it has caused a division in the family.

You lost a bit in translation there I think.
I thought one of the sons was interested and that son and the daughter were fighting about it.

Regardless-Only the Mum and Dad will be able to judge properly who's genuinely interested.

I have to agree with Beruthiels point,it also amuses me when kids "expect" hand outs.
Getting something from your parents while they are alive is a privilege and not a right
I think this thread has ran it's course to be honest as every possible idea has been trashed out over the last several pages.

I wish that family the best of luck and hope common sense will prevail.

Oh and I have to throw in the old saying... " After a gatherer comes a scatterer".

CDfm · 16-07-2009 11:30am

OP - can I ask - do any of the children work on the farm at all and what type of work do they do for a living?

I can appreciate your husbands point of view about the land and the nature of farming is that you love it.

Has he considered that his children dont feel the same and look on it as an asset and a quite a sizeable one at that. My aunt gave her farm to a cousin who got planning permission and sold it off to builders. She was fairly devastated but the reality is that you cant really control it when you are gone and I am inclined towards the view that as none of them are at home they havent demonstrated that they really want it and that your husband should reconsider his position.

what do you think?

LegacyUser · 16-07-2009 12:14pm

Op here. CDFM- none of them are at home because the farm couldnt support that. I know I said it was profitable and someone pointed out that that is probably because of payments from EU/govt which probably is the case. We have had 2 children in college at once and that costs alot with rent etc. The farm wouldnt support one child and us especially as all my children live at home. I know people keep saying it will be sold off but I can assure you it wont. I know people dont believe that but I know my children. As for it being sold off a stipualtion can be put in the will that if its sold the profits must be split. i konw that that wont happen so that wont solve the problem.

CDfm · 16-07-2009 12:26pm

Unregistered wrote: »

Op here. CDFM- none of them are at home because the farm couldnt support that. I know I said it was profitable and someone pointed out that that is probably because of payments from EU/govt which probably is the case. We have had 2 children in college at once and that costs alot with rent etc. The farm wouldnt support one child and us especially as all my children live at home. I know people keep saying it will be sold off but I can assure you it wont. I know people dont believe that but I know my children. As for it being sold off a stipualtion can be put in the will that if its sold the profits must be split. i konw that that wont happen so that wont solve the problem.

OK OP - one thing you are not counting on is marriages etc and partners which changes everything.

Based on what they are doing at the moment what do you see each of your children doing in 10 years time?

Inheritance

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