Lisbon vote October 2nd - How do you intend to vote?

Elmo

Only idiots will go out an vote for FG instead of FF possible the same idiots who think that this is a ref on EU membership when it clearly isn't.

NO = Some who does not care what other people think of them and understands that we are still part of the EU after a NO vote
NO = A strong country willing to defend itself on behalf of its people

YES = FF, BANKS and Developers
YES = A weak country that can have its arm twisted

I suppose the French and Dutch were wrong to vote NO to the constitution and yet they are still part of the EU.

You would think that we had no influence on bring people out into the light. You would think that Ireland didn't have the first Woman Minister in a government, you would think that Ireland didn't lead the way on smog, lead the way on smoking in public place, Duty Free etc.

Yes people seem to think we can do nothing in the country, with people like FF in power I guess they are sometime right. But that isn't going to change by voting Yes.

It seems to me that Ireland doesn't negotiation it gets whats coming to it, and that is prob the reason we are in the financial situation that we are all in.

ei.sdraob

Sam Vimes wrote: »

When you look at the no campaign you see that it consists almost entirely of the far left, the far right and the far out, the liars, the losers and the lunatics. They're the communists, the fascists, the terrorists, the religious fundamentalists and the guy with the US military contracts. They're the people who've been opposed to the EU since we joined and would love nothing more than to see Ireland pull out to satisfy their various vested interests and some of them want the end of the EU (UKIP).

dude that priceless!

as for the thread its quickly descending into madness

better get the popcorn out

/

Elmo

Saab Ed wrote: »

Well Im sorry for hurting your feelings but if you vote No its what you are. We are nothing without Europe.....NOTHING. Alone we would acheive nothing . We Irish have just bought into our own bullsh!t a little too much over the last years. Europe built us. Sorry to rake the pride of the " Sons of Ireland " but in our years of independance from the UK up to the point where we entrered into th EEC we went backwards not forward. Just get real.

The English Speaking Link to Europe, not that most other EU countries speak not only their own native language but have English as a second, third or forth language.

Again if we VOTE NO we do not leave the EU and no NO voter even wants that.

Elmo

ei.sdraob wrote: »

dude that priceless!

as for the thread its quickly descending into madness

better get the popcorn out

/

But sure its fun.

Saab Ed

Elmo wrote: »

I suppose the French and Dutch were wrong to vote NO to the constitution and yet they are still part of the EU.

Ah the No campaign with half the facts again. Two words Spain and Luxumburg

oscarBravo

It's not fun to moderate. Less of the name-calling, please.

RandomName2

Sam Vimes wrote: »

I wouldn't agree with someone saying that all no voters are idiots but to quote myself:


When you look at the no campaign you see that it consists almost entirely of the far left, the far right and the far out, the liars, the losers and the lunatics. They're the communists, the fascists, the terrorists, the religious fundamentalists and the guy with the US military contracts. They're the people who've been opposed to the EU since we joined and would love nothing more than to see Ireland pull out to satisfy their various vested interests and some of them want the end of the EU (UKIP). There are one or two groups that wouldn't fall into that category but they all have some side issue they're pushing like the taxi drivers and are taking their frustration out on the treaty or when you look at their reasons you see they've been taken in by the lies of the aforementioned lunatics, such as the whole minimum wage and 'race to the bottom' fiction. There are a small minority that have genuine issues with the increased move to QMV but in my opinion their fears are unfounded.

When all of those groups are on the same side as you, the extreme left AND the extreme right, when you're scraping the bottom of the barrel to find any public figure with an ounce of respectability who shares your views, maybe its time to examine your views

When Sinn Fein and the Conservative Party can agree about something I sit up and listen.

Ask a European bureaucrat if he wishes to increase the bureaucracy of the EU. He would have to be a loony to say no!

God, I wish I was on that gravy train. No idea why UKIP want to give it up.

RandomName2

Saab Ed wrote: »

Ah the No campaign with half the facts again. Two words Spain and Luxumburg

One word: unanimity.

ei.sdraob

RandomName2 wrote: »

God, I wish I was on that gravy train. No idea why UKIP want to give it up.

UKIP?

Its hard to implement your fascist ideas and reintroduce the death penalty

if you country is signed up to a charter of human rights

/

Sam Vimes

RandomName2 wrote: »

When Sinn Fein and the Conservative Party can agree about something I sit up and listen.

Ask a European bureaucrat if he wishes to increase the bureaucracy of the EU. He would have to be a loony to say no!

God, I wish I was on that gravy train. No idea why UKIP want to give it up.

I'd be the exact opposite. When both the extreme right and the extreme left oppose something that says to me they've got the balance just right. The centrists support this treaty, the people who are driven by common sense and compromise instead of their own ideology of how the world should be run.

Besides which, the probability of Sinn Fein supporting an EU treaty is hovering somewhere around nil, considering we wouldn't even be in the EU if it was up to them. I'm firmly of the belief that they've got all their posters ready to show all the problems with the next treaty and if you think the fact that it hasn't been written yet should be a hindrance to the production of those posters you don't understand Sinn Fein. Most of their arguments about this treaty are the same ones they gave for Nice and Maastricht

Elmo

Saab Ed wrote: »

Ah the No campaign with half the facts again. Two words Spain and Luxumburg

And that doesn't change the fact that 2 sovereign independent nations voted against it. See it is a Europe of nations with equal power.

RandomName2

Saab Ed wrote: »

Well Im sorry for hurting your feelings but if you vote No its what you are. We are nothing without Europe.....NOTHING. Alone we would acheive nothing . We Irish have just bought into our own bullsh!t a little too much over the last years. Europe built us. Sorry to rake the pride of the " Sons of Ireland " but in our years of independance from the UK up to the point where we entrered into th EEC we went backwards not forward. Just get real.

Ah: the worst 'no' lie of all!

Vote 'no' to leave the EU.

And America built Europe (Marshall Plan, et al). If Obama tells Manuel Barosso he should ratify a law, he should god-damn show his gratitude and sign it!

PopeBuckfastXVI

Elmo wrote: »

And that doesn't change the fact that 2 sovereign independent nations voted against it. See it is a Europe of nations with equal power.

Yep, that's why the constitution was gutted and the institutional reforms were put into Lisbon.

RandomName2

Elmo wrote: »

And that doesn't change the fact that 2 sovereign independent nations voted against it. See it is a Europe of nations with equal power.

Idealist.

Vote Yes or you will be punished!

Lose your veto, move to QMV: because majority matters.

What right have we to hold back the 7,000 European politicians that have pushed Lisbon? A legally-binding vote? Ha!

Spiritoftheseventies

What is the treaty about. One thing. A vote on our economy. Its another bail out. In the short term it will ensure a bit of stability.
But because of our begging bowl tactics we have ceased to be a main player now. And yes foreign investment will come in and then when it suits the multi nationals they will move on.
Multi nationals are there to make profit. A lot of the yes lobbyists are using this treaty for selfish ends.
As already stated there is no way Ryan Air would be voting for a yes vote if they did not think there was not something in it for them.
Sure they create jobs but they are anti union. And any company that is anti union is free to peddle their own agenda.

PopeBuckfastXVI

In fairness BVC. You should separate Ryanairs union stance from MOL's stance on Lisbon.

Unless he knows something the ICTU don't:

Sam Vimes

bayviewclose wrote: »

What is the treaty about. One thing. A vote on our economy. Its another bail out. In the short term it will ensure a bit of stability.
But because of our begging bowl tactics we have ceased to be a main player now. And yes foreign investment will come in and then when it suits the multi nationals they will move on.
Multi nationals are there to make profit. A lot of the yes lobbyists are using this treaty for selfish ends.
As already stated there is no way Ryan Air would be voting for a yes vote if they did not think there was not something in it for them.
Sure they create jobs but they are anti union. And any company that is anti union is free to peddle their own agenda.

Yes Ryanair is anti-union but look at all these groups who support the treaty:

Alliance for Europe
American Chamber of Commerce
Barnado's
Concern(NGO)
Construction Industry Federation (CIF)
Consumer Electronic Distributors Association (CEDA)
Cork Chamber of Commerce
Cork City Business Association
Dublin Chamber of Commerce
Dublin City Business Association
Engineers Ireland
Fashion & Footwear Federation
Financial Services Ireland
Fine Gael
Galway City Business Association
IBEC
ICMSA
ICT Ireland
ICTU
INO
Institute of Chartered Accountants in Ireland
Institute of Professional Auctioneers and Valuers
Irish Banking Federation
Irish Congress of Trade Unions
Irish Consultative Committee of Accountancy Bodies
Irish Dairy Industry Association (IDIA)
Irish Exporters Association (IEA)
Irish Farmers Association
Irish Fish Producers’ Organisation
Irish Franchise Association
Irish Hardware & Building Materials Association
Irish Hotels Federation (IHF)
Irish Medical Devices Association (IMDA)
Irish Sheep and Cattle Farmers Association
Irish Software Association (ISA)
Irish Taxation Institute
Irish Tourist Industry Confederation (ITIC)
Irish Travel Agents Association (ITAA)
Killybegs Fishermen’s Organisation
Labour
Limerick Chamber of Commerce
Limerick City Business Association
Network Dublin
North Dublin Chamber of Commerce
Pharmachemical Ireland
Progressive Democrats
Retail Ireland
SIPTU
Small Firms Association (SFA)
Society of Irish Motor Industry (SIMI)
South Dublin Chamber
Telecoms and Internet Federation (TIF)
Trocaire
Waterford Chamber of Commerce

I doubt they're all anti-union, especially the unions.

K-9

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Besides which, the probability of Sinn Fein supporting an EU treaty is hovering somewhere around nil, considering we wouldn't even be in the EU if it was up to them. I'm firmly of the belief that they've got all their posters ready to show all the problems with the next treaty and if you think the fact that it hasn't been written yet should be a hindrance to the production of those posters you don't understand Sinn Fein. Most of their arguments about this treaty are the same ones they gave for Nice and Maastricht

I read a piece in the Tribune that even some in SF didn't want to campaign for a No this time, Martin McGuinness in particular.

ei.sdraob

K-9 wrote: »

I read a piece in the Tribune that even some in SF didn't want to campaign for a No this time, Martin McGuinness in particular.

SF are being rather quiet this time around so far

/

meglome

Elmo wrote: »

Only idiots will go out an vote for FG instead of FF possible the same idiots who think that this is a ref on EU membership when it clearly isn't.

NO = Some who does not care what other people think of them and understands that we are still part of the EU after a NO vote
NO = A strong country willing to defend itself on behalf of its people

YES = FF, BANKS and Developers
YES = A weak country that can have its arm twisted

You know I just never get tired of being pigeon-holed and insulted. I'm paying attention to what's IN THE TREATY, not listening to our rubbish politicians saying Yes or all the crazies saying No. I'm voting Yes because it's best for Ireland.

Elmo

Construction Industry Federation (CIF)

Irish Banking Federation

Progressive Democrats

Elmo

meglome wrote: »

You know I just never get tired of being pigeon-holed and insulted. I'm paying attention to what's IN THE TREATY, not listening to our rubbish politicians saying Yes or all the crazies saying No. I'm voting Yes because it's best for Ireland.

My point was to the pointless name calling coming from the Yes side. I am voting NO because I believe that it is best for Europe.

meglome

Elmo wrote: »

My point was to the pointless name calling coming from the Yes side. I am voting NO because I believe that it is best for Europe.

By name calling?

Elmo wrote: »

Construction Industry Federation (CIF)

Irish Banking Federation

Progressive Democrats

And?

PopeBuckfastXVI

K-9 wrote: »

I read a piece in the Tribune that even some in SF didn't want to campaign for a No this time, Martin McGuinness in particular.

Got a link?

Did SF vote on Lisbon as a party this time round?

Elmo

meglome wrote: »

By name calling?
And?

If you had read the quote that I gave in that post you would understand that someone had name called the NO side I responded.

I am sure that the people in Construction Industry Federation (CIF), Irish Banking Federation and Progressive Democrats are lovely people I was just pointing out that they would like a Yes vote, indeed those nice people in FF also want one too.

My point being if the YES side want to be critical of the NO side then prehaps they need to take a close look at some of the supporting organisations as they do for the NO side.

In other words the posts are pointless as are many of the arguments coming from both sides of the the discussion in particular those that come down to name calling such as "Your an Idiot".

Sam Vimes

Elmo wrote: »

If you had read the quote that I gave in that post you would understand that someone had name called the NO side I responded.

Being able to give a few possibly questionable organisations on the yes side says nothing because there is such a broad range of support from both questionable but mostly reputable organisations. The distinct lack of reputable organisations on the no side however, speaks volumes. If some dodgy groups agree with you it might just be a coincidence but if only dodgy groups agree with you maybe you've missed something...

andrewdcs

I'll be as brief as I can....

Lisbon wants to streamline and simplify FDI (amongst other trade disciplines) as an EU competence alone, removing ratification of such treaties from national parliaments and giving it to the European parliament* acting via the Commission under the Council (as per a lot of EU business). This will give the commission and its foreign affairs minister a huge amount of influence, equal to that of (greater than?) the state department in the US. This isn't a huge change from status quo admittedly, it formalises it legally.

However, depending on political flavour of the month in the EP (and not domestically) Ireland / Germany or whoever could get "lumped" with trade deal against the current cultural "flow" in whatever country, left right, whatever.
I find this an abstraction of democratic political power in its most direct form, that of international trade, and I am very strongly opposed to it.

I could go on all day, but ultimately its a nuanced political maneuver to ensure "better" quicker trade deals for Europe, you can be for that or agin' it. I'm not sure Europe needs to strong arm a better trade deal from, say various African trade confederations than Ireland may have already and German may have on their own, no matter how justly. Replace African with American above and that changes dramatically in tone, but my principal is the same.

*(also, have you SEEN who gets into the European Parliament? And people don't think they have any power! If Lisbon goes ahead, and perhaps it should and my trade worries are subsumed, we HAVE to start turning out and picking heavy hitters, not jolly seekers, we have to get involved in Europe, as Lisbon gives Europe a real mandate)

RandomName2

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Being able to give a few possibly questionable organisations on the yes side says nothing because there is such a broad range of support from both questionable but mostly reputable organisations. The distinct lack of reputable organisations on the no side however, speaks volumes. If some dodgy groups agree with you it might just be a coincidence but if only dodgy groups agree with you maybe you've missed something...

If you consider the British Conservative Party fascist then this alone shows you clearly have no idea what you are talking about, at all, in terms of reputability. Why am I bothering to engage with your ad hominem based arguments?

Ad rem! Ad rem!

K-9

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

Got a link?

Did SF vote on Lisbon as a party this time round?

Had a quick look there but couldn't find it. It is a crap site.

It was more an opinion piece with "sources".

I'll see if I can get it later.

Sam Vimes

RandomName2 wrote: »

If you consider the British Conservative Party fascist then this alone shows you clearly have no idea what you are talking about, at all, in terms of reputability. Why am I bothering to engage with your ad hominem based arguments?

Ad rem! Ad rem!

I wasn't referring to the British conservative party, I was referring to the other radical right wing groups on the no side such as the UKIP and the German neo-nazis. The conservatives have always been euro sceptic so them being against the treaty is also hardly surprising.