Lisbon vote October 2nd - How do you intend to vote?

Sam Vimes

RandomName2 wrote: »

Saying that democracy will end isn't a threat because Libertas has no political power. At all. It is a jeremiad.

And the government have no control over companies coming in and providing jobs or market confidence created by a yes vote so that's not a threat either

RandomName2 wrote: »

But voting down a bill will make all the hard nosed multinationals think that Ireland is going to secede from the Union and go on its merry way. Must be why they all fled from France and Holland.

France and Holland did not vote no to three treaties. France and Holland gave their reasons why they voted no and they were rational and reasonable. Ireland's fictional reasons give a very clear impression that a substantial number of people in this country see the EU as some kind of dictatorship who's trying to steal our fish, control our lives and trample our constitution. There's a difference

johnwillnot

gubby wrote: »

A lot of the No people are going on and on about the fact that we voted before on this... actually we didnt actually vote on this. There are changes made. and besides, with something as important as this. we have to get it right. the vote the last time was by no means a resounding no.
I am voting yes for many reasons one of which is taking look at the people who are telling us to vote no.

This is still the same treaty you are voting on. The legal guarntees agreed at the June 2009 European Council make provisions of the Decision will be annexed to the Treaty on European Union and the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union as a Protocol as a Protocol at the time of the next accession treaty. This will probably be the accession of Croatia (or possibly Iceland) in 2010 or 2011.

Basically, these legal guarntees don't come into place till the next treaty is passed. Does that make sense?

Sam Vimes

johnwillnot wrote: »

This is still the same treaty you are voting on. The legal guarntees agreed at the June 2009 European Council make provisions of the Decision will be annexed to the Treaty on European Union and the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union as a Protocol as a Protocol at the time of the next accession treaty. This will probably be the accession of Croatia (or possibly Iceland) in 2010 or 2011.

Basically, these legal guarntees don't come into place till the next treaty is passed. Does that make sense?

(iii) the Decision is legally binding and will take effect on the date of entry into force of the Treaty of Lisbon;

No it doesn't because it's not true

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/uedocs/cms_data/docs/pressdata/en/ec/108622.pdf

Mad_Max

Is there not supposed to be a Media blackout today?

Todays herald am is plastered with Yes vote campaigning. I'm not arguing either way just wondering if this is legal/fair?

I know I wouldn't call the metro/herald am as quality news reporters but they have a huge media platform in the city.

meditraitor

Mad_Max wrote: »

Is there not supposed to be a Media blackout today?

Todays herald am is plastered with Yes vote campaigning. I'm not arguing either way just wondering if this is legal/fair?

I know I wouldn't call the metro/herald am as quality news reporters but they have a huge media platform in the city.

Is it not just the national brooadcasting media, RTE,TV3 etc?

Mad_Max

To be honest I never heard of the rule until yesterday.

I just took media blackout as all forms of media, could well have been mistaken

meditraitor

Only heard it last night as well but I understood it as television media.... The irish independent this morning page 12 to 21 is mainly countdown to Lisbon

marco_polo

And radio AFAIK

1der

?

Kimono-Girl

and the reasons businessmen are pro lisbon....





EU clears €54.5m Polish aid for Dell plant

Wednesday, 23 September 2009 12:25
Poland has won approval from the European Commission for its plan to grant €54.5m in aid for a factory to which US company Dell is moving production from Ireland.

After an in-depth investigation, the EU competition authority said the aid was compatible with the bloc's rules, despite protests from Ireland, where Dell is closing its factory in Limerick.



to read the full article here

:http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0923/dell.html


but i suppose the EU are still concerned with helping ireland yes? they only 'changed' the treaty because they need us, once we give them the yes vote there will be alot more of the above.
we are no longer considered by the EU to be needing help, they now want us to help poland...etc by sending all our resources and international companies there and the EU is helping POLAND not us! we owe them nothing...they are taking away all they have given us including jobs....VOTE NO!

Stark

Poland is helping itself. The EU has simply agreed not to interfere. If the EU blocked the efforts of the IDA in attracting business to Ireland, there'd be uproar.

fligedlyflick

you'll be branded a liar for telling such truths...

ei.sdraob

candlelover wrote: »

and the reasons businessmen are pro lisbon....





EU clears €54.5m Polish aid for Dell plant

Wednesday, 23 September 2009 12:25
Poland has won approval from the European Commission for its plan to grant €54.5m in aid for a factory to which US company Dell is moving production from Ireland.

After an in-depth investigation, the EU competition authority said the aid was compatible with the bloc's rules, despite protests from Ireland, where Dell is closing its factory in Limerick.



to read the full article here

:http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0923/dell.html


but i suppose the EU are still concerned with helping ireland yes? they only 'changed' the treaty because they need us, once we give them the yes vote there will be alot more of the above.
we are no longer considered by the EU to be needing help, they now want us to help poland...etc by sending all our resources and international companies there and the EU is helping POLAND not us! we owe them nothing...they are taking away all they have given us including jobs....VOTE NO!

what do you have to say about EU handing over 15 million to DELL Ireland workers

while giving 0 cents to Poland

?

fligedlyflick

ei.sdraob wrote: »

what do you have to say about EU handing over 15 million to DELL Ireland workers

while giving 0 cents to Poland

?

a bribe

ei.sdraob

fligedlyflick wrote: »

a bribe

Is the EU responsible for Dell moving or is it the Irish workers (and their trade unions) for pricing themselves out of competition?

One of the reasons for Dell moving here was our competitiveness, something that we lost in meantime

Voting NO only ensure that we have more cases like Dell happening in this country a few years down the road

go ahead cut your nose to spite your face!

/

fligedlyflick

and a yes vote will change this? how.
i'm intrigued to hear your synapses on this abhorrence that yes means jobs

ei.sdraob

fligedlyflick wrote: »

and a yes vote will change this? how.
i'm intrigued to hear your synapses on this abhorrence that yes means jobs

90.8% of independent economists feel that a YES is good for economy and FDI

dearg lady

how soon do the results usually come out for referndums? I can't remember from last time.

ei.sdraob

dearg lady wrote: »

how soon do the results usually come out for referndums? I can't remember from last time.

about midday on Saturday

/

fligedlyflick

ei.sdraob wrote: »

90.8% of independent economists feel that a YES is good for economy and FDI

and for themselves.

as for the result. it's not the vote that counts, it's who counts the votes

The Volt

fligedlyflick wrote: »

and for themselves.

as for the result. it's not the vote that counts, it's who counts the votes

So EVERYONE who represents anyone is ultimately just out for themselves?

K-9

gubby wrote: »

A lot of the No people are going on and on about the fact that we voted before on this... actually we didnt actually vote on this. There are changes made. and besides, with something as important as this. we have to get it right. the vote the last time was by no means a resounding no.
I am voting yes for many reasons one of which is taking look at the people who are telling us to vote no.

They have to argue there is no changes so they can repeat the same FUD as last time. One good thing about this campaign is there has been less FUD, exactly because of the Guarantees. That is a change in itself and has made the No side more desperate with calls about Freedom, etc.

Stark wrote: »

Poland is helping itself. The EU has simply agreed not to interfere. If the EU blocked the efforts of the IDA in attracting business to Ireland, there'd be uproar.

It is amazing how people didn't have a problem when we did this, now having it when Poland do it.

Do people seriously expect Poland and others not to copy us? It's a big world out there, not everything revolves around Ireland.

This has the same logic as saying other countries shouldn't have lower Corporation Tax than us, the cheek!

fligedlyflick

K-9 wrote: »

Do people seriously expect Poland and others not to copy us? It's a big world out there, not everything revolves around Ireland.

well the yes camp and the brussels eu are making out that this is exclusively about ireland

Spook_ie

Rb wrote: »

No, the text hasn't changed, not that it needed to be. However, the best possible solution has been found.

Do you realise how many countries have ratified this treaty? Do you realise how much money has been spent on this treaty? And you think that they should go back, re-draft it and make everyone else re-ratify it based on the fears of a bunch of people who've little idea what they're voting about?!

They weren't legitimate causes for a re-drafting, they could be solved by guarantees, which we have gotten now.

So, happy mondays, what part of the treaty text are you voting against?

What guarantees are they then? Have you seen these guarantees printed/published at all on any kind of legaly binding document? or are they just promises?

Sam Vimes

Spook_ie wrote: »

What guarantees are they then? Have you seen these guarantees printed/published at all on any kind of legaly binding document? or are they just promises?

There ya go:

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/uedocs/cms_data/docs/pressdata/en/ec/108622.pdf

prinz

Spook_ie wrote: »

What guarantees are they then? Have you seen these guarantees printed/published at all on any kind of legaly binding document? or are they just promises?

This is just bewildering at this late stage.... given the amount of attention they have received.

Spook_ie

Ireland and the Treaty of Lisbon
1. The European Council recalls that the entry into force of the Treaty of Lisbon requires ratification by each of the 27 Member States in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements. It reaffirms its wish to see the Treaty enter into force by the end of 2009.
2. Having carefully noted the concerns of the Irish people as set out by the Taoiseach, the European Council, at its meeting of 11-12 December 2008, agreed that, provided the Treaty of Lisbon enters into force, a decision would be taken, in accordance with the necessary legal procedures, to the effect that the Commission shall continue to include one national of each
Member State.
3. The European Council also agreed that other concerns of the Irish people, as presented by the Taoiseach, relating to taxation policy, the right to life, education and the family, and Ireland's traditional policy of military neutrality, would be addressed to the mutual satisfaction of Ireland and the other Member States, by way of the necessary legal guarantees. It was also
agreed that the high importance attached to a number of social issues, including workers' rights, would be confirmed.

The wording to me does not copperfasten any guarantee.. anyone remember this "guarantee"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lxb0FGhs5GI

Sam Vimes

Spook_ie wrote: »

The wording to me does not copperfasten any guarantee.. anyone remember this "guarantee"

The guarantees are as binding as any treaty. If you don't believe them then you have no reason to believe they will abide by the treaty and therefore no reason to vote no to it or for that matter no reason to vote yes to it. There's no reason to read a single word of any document ever written by the European Union if you don't believe those guarantees. Legal agreements are irrelevant if the parties have no intention of sticking to them. They're just a waste of paper

fligedlyflick

emmmmmmmmm.....
i can recall another guarantee by fianna fail, this was an unnerving promise to the irish people bewildered by fianna fail incompetence, this guarantee promised a speedy return to posperous times and jobs, it was off course the bank guarantee.
now we know how it has done nothing of the sort and he still expects us to believe another guarantee which promises a speedy return to prosperous times and jobs.
i'm begginning to detect an awful lot of bull**** from fianna fail

prinz

fligedlyflick wrote: »

emmmmmmmmm.....
i can recall another guarantee by fianna fail...

These guarantees have nothing to do with Fianna Fáil.