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Lisbon vote October 2nd - How do you intend to vote?

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#3362 01-10-2009 4:48pm
nacho libre

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just on that last point and this:

Sam Vimes wrote: »

There ya go:

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/uedocs/cms_data/docs/pressdata/en/ec/108622.pdf

is there every time when international law has been struck down or interpreted differently than what has been stated in a treaty? to be a bit more specific, in the last 50 years has the european court in a test case every ruled on a treaty that was contrary to specific content in that particular treaty.

another words, to finally put this issue to bed, can you state definitively that the guarantees we have gotten, can never be challenged and successfully struck down by the ECJ.

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#3363 01-10-2009 4:49pm
prinz

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Spook_ie wrote: »

The wording to me does not copperfasten any guarantee.. anyone remember this "guarantee"

Do you have any belief or faith in the United Nations as an international body?

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#3364 01-10-2009 4:53pm
poncho000

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it'll be a no vote from me because it puts more power in the hands of the "big" euro states. It seems as though we are moving towards a europe run by france, britainand germany. Essentially they will be making the laws for our country and we'll have no say. So I believe the no campaign are right to reference the people who brought independence to this country because a yes vote would be throwing that away!

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#3365 01-10-2009 4:55pm
oscarBravo

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poncho000 wrote: »

it'll be a no vote from me because it puts more power in the hands of the "gig" euro states.

How does it do that?

It seems as though we are moving towards a europe run by france, britainand germany. Essentially they will be making the laws for our country and we'll have no say.

Eh, no.

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#3366 01-10-2009 4:55pm
Stark

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How do you reckon a no vote is putting more power in the hands of the big states?

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#3367 01-10-2009 4:59pm
fligedlyflick

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prinz wrote: »

These guarantees have nothing to do with Fianna Fáil.

what?
who in gods name was over in Brussels apologising for our ignored no vote? the cast of fame?
of course it has everything to do with fianna fail, it's their slogan, it's their legacy and future boasting material, "i got the legally binding guarantees, vote yes for gold deposits in monaghan",
really

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#3368 01-10-2009 5:01pm
fligedlyflick

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oscarBravo wrote: »

How does it do that? Eh, no.

the yes side say no more times than the actual no voters, no to anything which contradicts their europhilia

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#3369 01-10-2009 5:01pm
Scofflaw

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fligedlyflick wrote: »

what?
who in gods name was over in Brussels apologising for our ignored no vote? the cast of fame?
of course it has everything to do with fianna fail, it's their slogan, it's their legacy and future boasting material, "i got the legally binding guarantees, vote yes for gold deposits in monaghan",
really

It has nothing to do with Fianna Fáil, any more than the GFA. Legally binding international agreements are legally binding international agreements, whoever signs them.

regards,
Scofflaw

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#3370 01-10-2009 5:04pm
fligedlyflick

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Scofflaw wrote: »

It has nothing to do with Fianna Fáil, any more than the GFA. Legally binding international agreements are legally binding international agreements, whoever signs them.

regards,
Scofflaw

regardless, we shall be forever known as pushovers in europe and the world by the cowardice of fianna fail ignoring our vote and a beacon to other semi democratic corrupt states

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#3371 01-10-2009 5:04pm
free-man

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Scofflaw wrote: »

It has nothing to do with Fianna Fáil, any more than the GFA. Legally binding international agreements are legally binding international agreements, whoever signs them.

regards,
Scofflaw

Yes but have the declarations been signed?

Or does that not matter?

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#3372 01-10-2009 5:15pm
K-9

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fligedlyflick wrote: »

regardless, we shall be forever known as pushovers in europe and the world by the cowardice of fianna fail ignoring our vote and a beacon to other semi democratic corrupt states

Indeed, regardless. So even if you accept they are legally binding, it doesn't really matter.

free-man wrote: »

Yes but have the declarations been signed?

Or does that not matter?

I suppose they could conceivably go back on them.

I suppose it is another "conceivable fact" to be added to the others.

Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.

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#3373 01-10-2009 5:18pm
fligedlyflick

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K-9 wrote: »

Indeed, regardless. So even if you accept they are legally binding, it doesn't really matter.

I suppose they could conceivably go back on them.

I suppose it is another "conceivable fact" to be added to the others.

so accepting our role from now on as weaklings is comparible to believing a politicians word.

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#3374 01-10-2009 5:27pm
free-man

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K-9 wrote: »

I suppose they could conceivably go back on them.

Thats right, cos politicians never go back on their word.. right?

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#3375 01-10-2009 5:30pm
marco_polo

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free-man wrote: »

Yes but have the declarations been signed?

Or does that not matter?

I am sick of repeating myself, but a Council Decision is an instrument of EU law. And this one is no different to the countless others in existance.

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#3376 01-10-2009 5:30pm
Sam Vimes

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free-man wrote: »

Thats right, cos politicians never go back on their word.. right?

This is not "their word", this is a legally binding guarantee. It's like the difference between not building you that football pitch he promised and murdering people who were going to vote for his opponent

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#3377 01-10-2009 5:36pm
Stark

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free-man wrote: »

Thats right, cos politicians never go back on their word.. right?

Well they *could* ignore the guarantees. They *could* just ignore everything in the Lisbon treaty (which the guarantees are based on). They *could* just ignore everything in previous treaties. Of course, we then could just ignore any laws they tell us to enforce. "Sorry, we decided to ignore the guarantees on abortion. Please provide abortion services". "No sorry, we're going to ignore your request for us to change our law on abortion because you ignored the guarantee". The whole system is based on everyone keeping to their agreements.

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#3378 01-10-2009 5:40pm
Spook_ie

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prinz wrote: »

Do you have any belief or faith in the United Nations as an international body?

Given their past record on Israel/Palestine/Afghanistan/Iraq/Korea do you?

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#3379 01-10-2009 5:43pm
PopeBuckfastXVI

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Spook_ie wrote: »

Given their past record on Israel/Palestine/Afghanistan/Iraq/Korea do you?

Shows what happens when you give everyone a veto, I suppose...

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#3380 01-10-2009 7:11pm
K-9

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Look, the EU has never gone back on protocols or agreements so, yes, I trust the EU.

Really, people who have this logic musn't get in a car or fly on an airplane. Sure it could crash.

Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.

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#3381 01-10-2009 7:13pm
Rb

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Anyone else get that vile leaflet from Coir through the door today?

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#3382 01-10-2009 7:17pm
PopeBuckfastXVI

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Rb wrote: »

Anyone else get that vile leaflet from Coir through the door today?

No, but I've a feeling I'll be doing the same 'return to sender' thing I did with the UKIP one.

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#3383 01-10-2009 7:18pm
free-man

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K-9 wrote: »

Look, the EU has never gone back on protocols or agreements so, yes, I trust the EU.

Really, people who have this logic musn't get in a car or fly on an airplane. Sure it could crash.

I voted yes for every previous treaty.

When I saw the shameful reaction after the Irish no vote last year that trust has all but disappeared.

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#3384 01-10-2009 7:20pm
RandomName2

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free-man wrote: »

I voted yes for every previous treaty.

When I saw the shameful reaction after the Irish no vote last year that trust has all but disappeared.

It was perfectly within keeping with them not liking us having a vote in the first place.

I suppose there should be at least one link to the debate in this particular thread. Even if Scofflaw and sink didn't surface

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055695799

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#3385 01-10-2009 7:23pm
meglome

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free-man wrote: »

I voted yes for every previous treaty.

When I saw the shameful reaction after the Irish no vote last year that trust has all but disappeared.

he he he ah come on, our habit is voting more than once on our treaty's, where have you been?

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#3386 01-10-2009 7:27pm
Rb

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PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

No, but I've a feeling I'll be doing the same 'return to sender' thing I did with the UKIP one.

It's horrendous.

They also put it through my letter box which has a large "No Junk Mail" sign on it. Ignorant bastards.

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#3387 01-10-2009 7:28pm
PopeBuckfastXVI

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free-man wrote: »

I voted yes for every previous treaty.

When I saw the shameful reaction after the Irish no vote last year that trust has all but disappeared.

Ask Turgon or Rb what they think of having a second vote...

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#3388 01-10-2009 7:39pm
samson09

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuV5JHHYh9g

No means no!

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#3389 01-10-2009 7:41pm
Wendell Gee

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In relation to the reaction to the No vote last year, we are being fairly precious. The No vote was our absolute right, and a free expression of the will of the people, BUT...
1 The vote was preceded by an ugly, narrow, debate, with a significant amount of dishonest claims made.
2 The yes side, largely comprised of our politicians, made a horses ass of their job. They were complacent, bullying, and presumptive.
3 The no side, in particular the extreme right, disregarded all the evidence of our 35 years experience as EU members, and painted Brussels as some kind of cabal hell-bent on stripping Ireland's independence away.
4 We revealed ourselves as a nation of self-obsessed, grabby, and fairly paranoid little nation.
It was this, as much as the result of the referendum, that lowered our standing across Europe and beyond.

This time, the yes campaign, particularly the civil society groupings, have at least addressed the substantive issues.
The no side have consistently claimed that the guarantees hold no water. I would respectfully suggest that if this is the case, that we do not trust the heads of state of our 26 fellow member states to uphold an international agreement, lodged with the UN, a process that has held firm for all such previous international treaties, that we should immediately withdraw from the EU.I'm hoping for a yes vote. I think it will be very close. I have been disappointed with much of the discourse on the subject, on this board as much as on any other fora. God help this little country if we don't grow up- and soon.

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#3390 01-10-2009 8:26pm
Spook_ie

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Wendell Gee wrote: »

In relation to the reaction to the No vote last year, we are being fairly precious. The No vote was our absolute right, and a free expression of the will of the people, BUT...
1 The vote was preceded by an ugly, narrow, debate, with a significant amount of dishonest claims made.
2 The yes side, largely comprised of our politicians, made a horses ass of their job. They were complacent, bullying, and presumptive.
3 The no side, in particular the extreme right, disregarded all the evidence of our 35 years experience as EU members, and painted Brussels as some kind of cabal hell-bent on stripping Ireland's independence away.
4 We revealed ourselves as a nation of self-obsessed, grabby, and fairly paranoid little nation.
It was this, as much as the result of the referendum, that lowered our standing across Europe and beyond.

This time, the yes campaign, particularly the civil society groupings, have at least addressed the substantive issues.
The no side have consistently claimed that the guarantees hold no water. I would respectfully suggest that if this is the case, that we do not trust the heads of state of our 26 fellow member states to uphold an international agreement, lodged with the UN, a process that has held firm for all such previous international treaties, that we should immediately withdraw from the EU.I'm hoping for a yes vote. I think it will be very close. I have been disappointed with much of the discourse on the subject, on this board as much as on any other fora. God help this little country if we don't grow up- and soon.

But it WAS a no vote, not an "Ask me again sometime vote"

EU promises....If the treaty isn't ratified by all states then it will not occur
EU fact..........If you voted no we'll make you vote again and again and again!!

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#3391 01-10-2009 8:29pm
Lockstep

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Just wondering; does anyone complaining about the second referendum feel the same way about the 2 divorce referendums.

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