Lisbon vote October 2nd - How do you intend to vote?

PopeBuckfastXVI

CliodhnaB wrote: »

Its good for the government and bad for us. I hope its not passed cause thats when the hard times will come.

VOTE NO!

Explain please?

passive

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

Explain please?

And why should she have to do a thing like that? It's her opinion, don't ya know!

meglome

CliodhnaB wrote: »

Its good for the government and bad for us. I hope its not passed cause thats when the hard times will come.

VOTE NO!

GO SOXS

Maybe you should say how? Since you're so sure like, might convert the rest of us.

CliodhnaB

it'll bail out the bankers. great for the government make them look like they did something.. yet we will have to pay money for owning a house? Property market wil fall jobs will be lost. We might as well start drawning the dole now cause in a few years those who have a job wont be afford milk. Simple as its good for ireland but bad for the people. any body who votes yes is obviously a fan of banana f**kn republic. its a disgrace.

PopeBuckfastXVI

passive wrote: »

And why should she have to do a thing like that? It's her opinion, don't ya know!

Sorry, I was under the impression that this was a discussion forum, not a blog.

I want to know how Lisbon is 'good for the government, but bad for us'.

I also want to know what disaster will befall Ireland, should we vote yes.

PopeBuckfastXVI

CliodhnaB wrote: »

it'll bail out the bankers. great for the government make them look like they did something.. yet we will have to pay money for owning a house? Property market wil fall jobs will be lost. We might as well start drawning the dole now cause in a few years those who have a job wont be afford milk. Simple as its good for ireland but bad for the people. any body who votes yes is obviously a fan of banana f**kn republic. its a disgrace.

None of this is anything to do with Lisbon, what you need is a General Election, where you can change the Government, which retains control of these policies.

passive

CliodhnaB wrote: »

it'll bail out the bankers. great for the government make them look like they did something.. yet we will have to pay money for owning a house? Property market wil fall jobs will be lost. We might as well start drawning the dole now cause in a few years those who have a job wont be afford milk. Simple as its good for ireland but bad for the people. any body who votes yes is obviously a fan of banana f**kn republic. its a disgrace.

You know that nothing you're saying has anything whatsoever to do with Lisbon, right? Like, you're taking the piss? Please say you're taking the piss. By being in this forum you are surrounded by thousands and thousands of posts explaining what Lisbon is about, and what it ISN'T about (e.g. the crap you've just posted here. Bailing out the bankers? What!?)

You've basically gone really far out of your way to come stand on top of a mountain and say "I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT A MOUNTAIN IS."

Argh...

CliodhnaB

passive wrote: »

And why should she have to do a thing like that? It's her opinion, don't ya know!

ha exactly but sure clearly they dont have a brain asking to explain what good it will do to us.

explain what good it will do for us?
and remember i sed us as people, not as ireland!

CliodhnaB

expressing my opinion.

Moriarty

CliodhnaB wrote: »

expressing my opinion.

Opinions are quite often demonstrably wrong.

Stark

CliodhnaB wrote: »

it'll bail out the bankers. great for the government make them look like they did something.. yet we will have to pay money for owning a house? Property market wil fall jobs will be lost. We might as well start drawning the dole now cause in a few years those who have a job wont be afford milk. Simple as its good for ireland but bad for the people. any body who votes yes is obviously a fan of banana f**kn republic. its a disgrace.

This is a Lisbon treaty thread. If you want to talk about NAMA, there are threads in the Irish Economy forum for that.

CliodhnaB

oooh still voting no!

marco_polo

CliodhnaB wrote: »

it'll bail out the bankers. great for the government make them look like they did something..

Hi this is a Lisbon thread, not one about NAMA.

yet we will have to pay money for owning a house?

Already happens I'm afraid, they are called mortgages

Property market wil fall jobs will be lost. We might as well start drawning the dole now cause in a few years those who have a job wont be afford milk. Simple as its good for ireland but bad for the people. any body who votes yes is obviously a fan of banana f**kn republic. its a disgrace.

None of the above of which has anything to do with Lisbon. And everything to do with our failed economic policies.

CliodhnaB

The name is actually how do you intend to vote. its a poll and im expressing my opinons. so get back to what ever important thing you are doing

passive

CliodhnaB wrote: »

expressing my opinion.

Cute.

But seriously, if you don't care about "us as Ireland" or know anything about the Lisbon Treaty, or the European Union, or want to know about either, do you really think you should be saying Yes or No to a treaty concerning Ireland and the European Union?

Moriarty

CliodhnaB wrote: »

The name is actually how do you intend to vote. its a poll and im expressing my opinons. so get back to what ever important thing you are doing

.. and people are just pointing out that your opinion is worthless as it's got nothing to do with the treaty.

Straying off topic, it's rather interesting that you're so worked up about government not taking responsibility for what they've done over the past few years when you can't even take responsibility for using your vote since you've apparently no idea what you're voting on.

Hypocrisy comes in all forms, I guess.

rumour

Moriarty wrote: »

.. and people are just pointing out that your opinion is worthless as it's got nothing to do with the treaty.

Straying off topic, it's rather interesting that you're so worked up about government not taking responsibility for what they've done over the past few years when you can't even take responsibility for using your vote since you've apparently no idea what you're voting on.

Hypocrisy comes in all forms, I guess.

I'm surprised the moderator hasn't stepped in!!!! Nobodies opinion is worthless if it effects how they will vote.

Zenemy

Hi marco_polo
You guys obviously have an academic understanding of the details of the treaty and I do respect what you are saying. You feel that the EU has done more for Ireland than our own government has. I can understand that. You basically feel that the big business' interests are our interests whether we like it or not - they are the ones who make the jobs for us - and that we can play a role in the future of Europe and its objectives.
But is it also true that the because we are already so deeply entrenched in Europe (like the Euro) our own government is less and less powerful in itself? I think people in general, who previously wouldn't have thought to care about this stuff are suddenly realizing that Europe is becoming a force. Understandably people are suspicious - it comes down to the times we are in right now and the actual state of the world. People in all countries are scared by all the doom and gloom, i mean it really does feel like the arse is going to fall out of the US monetary system for example, and what kind of effect would that have?

Imo, the Lisbon Treaty, and all the hoo haa about it, at a time when the economy is already down the toilet, is really the last thing people give a toss about and that's the real problem here - a country under the duress of economic decline is being asked to turn their attention to Europe?
We don't wanna hear the government talking about 'there will be no jobs if we don't vote yes'. People want to hear about the jobs they're supposed to be creating. Here. Now.


(True in the instance of the Social declaration it is only a political statement. This is not true of the decisions though.) So why doesn't the booklet explain that to me joe public instead of brushing over it? And isn't a little bit of an oxymoron?

(Originaly we had agreed to partake in these areas under the orignal EU Constitution, but once Britain opted out we decided to follow suit.
All the government is saying is that it will review this decision after a period of three years.) Im sorry but that should be out of the question surely? We are talking about neutrality.

(Presumeably nothing since neither Russia or Georgia are EU states. Would you be deeply opposed to sending in principal to sending emergency service workers or Aid to a fellow EU member state in the event of a disaster?)
We already do this don't we? Isn't Ireland one of the most charitable nations in these situations?

How does it give euro politicians more power to act without consent? Lisbon certainly does not move the EU in the direction of a federal state since the fundamental structures of the EU will change very little with the exception some areas of the decision making structure.
Exactly, you answered your own question.


(The only thing that I am aware of that has to be decided upon is the implementation of the Citizens Initative? ) I thought I saw it a few times, it's pretty important though, to have the Citizens Initiative in stone or not have them at all as it just appears to Sex up the document imo


(What are you suggesting as alternatives? It certainly seems that you are advocating an isolationist position for Ireland?)
No, not at all, that's too extreme in the other direction y'know. I was looking at Norway for example, I know they have oil but we have (had) gas and other exportable goods, fish, meat, art, culture. Anyway Norway is reporting increase in economy and they're not in the EU.
They are still in the EEC. Why wouldn't we just let the banks fail (like Iceland) and then try to re-establish our place between Europe and the US. Maybe I'm talking bull, I'm just afraid that Ireland has lost the jobs to eastern Europe already and voting yes is not going to bring them back. Do you think it will? Really? Look I'm not nearly qualified to get too far into the finer points of the treaty but I'm just expressing my feelings and the feelings of those around me, coz I think everyone should do that in these times.

Scofflaw

rumour wrote: »

I'm surprised the moderator hasn't stepped in!!!! Nobodies opinion is worthless if it effects how they will vote.

At the end of the day, this is a discussion forum, not the Oireachtas. We exist to discuss things. While I'd prefer not to have people discussing the value of other people's opinions, simply posting your opinion and stating it's beyond discussion isn't any better.

moderately,
Scofflaw

mattman

voted no last time..


definitely voting no this time..

with comments from that prick cowen..cant rem. exact quote but something like..

I cant see that happening

the arrogant f.

NO NO NO NO NO and NO again.

m.

97i9y3941

if we vote no again we probably hear the usual oh joe public didnt understand the wording thing again and be made to vote again until we get an yes!

meglome

mattman wrote: »

voted no last time..


definitely voting no this time..

with comments from that prick cowen..cant rem. exact quote but something like..

I cant see that happening

the arrogant f.

NO NO NO NO NO and NO again.

m.

Yup Cowan is the only person who thinks it should be a Yes vote, yes siree nothing to see here.

Fred83 wrote: »

if we vote no again we probably hear the usual oh joe public didnt understand the wording thing again and be made to vote again until we get an yes!

You know they did ask people why they voted No and the best part of 50% of them said it was because they didn't understand what was in the treaty. So you'd be hearing the usual as it's true.

97i9y3941

personally i dont think its worth the paper its written on,like with most of europe,influence and power always win out...

mattman

http://unrepentantcommunist.blogspot.com/2009/05/vote-for-no-to-lisbon-candidates-in-eu.html


had a read of this! crazy stuff...i ant no cummunist..but...its interesting reading..

looked up yes and no sides...
lot more no, explaned, why to vote no.

As for the yes, sounds like a hot air and bull.

Must admit i was undecided at 9pm. after on the net for last 3 hours..im def. no no no no no.


bring on the vote...


m.

Scofflaw

mattman wrote: »

http://unrepentantcommunist.blogspot.com/2009/05/vote-for-no-to-lisbon-candidates-in-eu.html


had a read of this! crazy stuff...i ant no cummunist..but...its interesting reading..

looked up yes and no sides...
lot more no, explaned, why to vote no.

As for the yes, sounds like a hot air and bull.

Must admit i was undecided at 9pm. after on the net for last 3 hours..im def. no no no no no.


bring on the vote...


m.

Has it occurred to you that the "lot more no explained" might just be made up?

cordially,
Scofflaw

The Volt

mattman wrote: »

http://unrepentantcommunist.blogspot.com/2009/05/vote-for-no-to-lisbon-candidates-in-eu.html


im def. no no no no no.



m.

are you def in both ears?

Stark

Yeah because communists know what's best. *sigh*

It's late but the first point alone shows them to be misrepresenting the facts:

A constitutional revolution: Lisbon would be a constitutional revolution in the EU and its Member States. It would give Government Ministers and the Big EU States huge new powers, while taking power away from ordinary citizens across the EU, and from the National Parliaments they elect. That is why only Ireland is being allowed a vote on it - because of our Constitution. Only we Irish can save democracy in the EU by refusing to allow ourselves to be bullied or bamboozled into overturning our rejection of Lisbon last year - thereby holding open for the people of Britain and our fellow countrymen and women in Northern Ireland the chance of voting No to Lisbon in a UK referendum next summer.

In fact Lisbon gives more power to ordinary citizens and national parliaments (the more power to national parliaments being something the Dutch in particular requested), and the addition of the double majority concept to the QMV system means small countries have more power to overturn decisions by big countries.

mattman

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6QmH-7fu68

VERY interesting..viewing...

VERY..


m.

mattman

Scofflaw wrote: »

Has it occurred to you that the "lot more no explained" might just be made up?

cordially,
Scofflaw

WHAT? made up? i wont even answer that , cause its such a stupid statment.

mattman

Stark wrote: »

Yeah because communists know what's best. *sigh*

It's late but the first point alone shows them to be misrepresenting the facts:



In fact Lisbon gives more power to ordinary citizens and national parliaments (the more power to national parliaments being something the Dutch in particular requested), and the addition of the double majority concept to the QMV system means small countries have more power to overturn decisions by big countries.

Few lines.....
Why should i believe that? why should i believe no?
Great thing is..ill decide...Both of us have a choice.

please post a few links to information a lay person like myself can understand.

More power? far as i can tell one in every 5 citizens in , for eg Ireland have to agree first, BEFORE it goes to EU headquaters. And how do we do that? call a vote. ok. yes. I CAN NOT SEE THAT HAPPENING. Am i wrong?

Please tell me. I want to understand.

m.

Moriarty

mattman wrote: »

http://unrepentantcommunist.blogspot.com/2009/05/vote-for-no-to-lisbon-candidates-in-eu.html


had a read of this! crazy stuff...i ant no cummunist..but...its interesting reading..

looked up yes and no sides...
lot more no, explaned, why to vote no.

As for the yes, sounds like a hot air and bull.

Must admit i was undecided at 9pm. after on the net for last 3 hours..im def. no no no no no.


bring on the vote...


m.

The least you could have done is made a new account to shill under.

Originally posted June 5th 2008:

mattman wrote: »

fishing industry is in chaos
health care is a disaster
pubs closing
rural business destroyed
increasing suicide in ireland
cost of living has hit an all time high
government are telling us what to do
taxis are a complete rip off
we voted on last referendum ..we rejected ..they re voted(and won)
Lose the right to make our own decision's
Its a joke...Time to reject current government and vote no..

Only problem is most people wont even read it(even our own politicians)

AND THEY ARE TELLING US TO VOTE YES?

WAKE UP...

M.

Undecided indeed.

The Volt

mattman wrote: »

Few lines.....
Why should i believe that? why should i believe no?
Great thing is..ill decide...Both of us have a choice.

please post a few links to information a lay person like myself can understand.

More power? far as i can tell one in every 5 citizens in , for eg Ireland have to agree first, BEFORE it goes to EU headquaters. And how do we do that? call a vote. ok. yes. I CAN NOT SEE THAT HAPPENING. Am i wrong?

Please tell me. I want to understand.

m.

Why are you here if you've clearly already made up your closed mind and are unwilling to listen to any logical arguement? You're certainly not convincing anyone else.

mattman

Moriarty wrote: »

The least you could have done is made a new account to shill under.

Originally posted June 5th 2008:




Undecided indeed.

Honest to f. I was, thinking of voting yes.

goes to show, im not like a fat greedy politician .

the yes camp is flawed. The treaty is for the big guy.

If a no comes "again", acording to some web sites, other governments will put the vote to the people.

Isnt that what its all about? People? Us ?

You , me. We are being bullied into a yes vote. is that the way forward?

m.

mattman

Voltwad wrote: »

Why are you here if you've clearly already made up your closed mind and are unwilling to listen to any logical arguement? You're certainly not convincing anyone else.

you have no answers for me?

Cant u quote a few web sites? Your not even trying.

YOUR the one is in denial. Im hear for the past 3 hours trying to understand. If i was a staunch "no" , why in the name of god would i be researching?

Please, send some links. Some information a lay person can understand. Im open to everything.

So just chill, and come foward with the info please.

What about the 1 in 5 needed to vote to go to EU headquaters? no one answered that yet. But i cant wait for some answers. (posted ..earlier..look up)

m.

marco_polo

mattman wrote: »

Honest to f. I was, thinking of voting yes.

goes to show, im not like a fat greedy politician .

the yes camp is flawed. The treaty is for the big guy.

If a no comes "again", acording to some web sites, other governments will put the vote to the people.

Isnt that what its all about? People? Us ?

You , me. We are being bullied into a yes vote. is that the way forward?

m.

So you are being bullied into a Yes vote, but are voting no? See the flaw in that statement

marco_polo

mattman wrote: »

you have no answers for me?

Cant u quote a few web sites? Your not even trying.

YOUR the one is in denial. Im hear for the past 3 hours trying to understand. If i was a staunch "no" , why in the name of god would i be researching?

Please, send some links. Some information a lay person can understand. Im open to everything.

So just chill, and come foward with the info please.

What about the 1 in 5 needed to vote to go to EU headquaters? no one answered that yet. But i cant wait for some answers. (posted ..earlier..look up)

m.

http://www.lisbontreaty.ie/whitepaper/

http://www.lisbontreaty2009.ie/

http://www.rte.ie/news/features/lisbontreaty/treaty_sections.html

Any question feel free to ask

mattman

again..no answers..just a stupid statment..
no argument..no input...

m.

see post above this....

mattman

marco_polo wrote: »

http://www.lisbontreaty.ie/whitepaper/

http://www.lisbontreaty2009.ie/

http://www.rte.ie/news/features/lisbontreaty/treaty_sections.html

Any question feel free to ask

i will. thanks for the info.

This may take some time.

m.

The Volt

mattman wrote: »

you have no answers for me?

Cant u quote a few web sites? Your not even trying.

YOUR the one is in denial. Im hear for the past 3 hours trying to understand. If i was a staunch "no" , why in the name of god would i be researching?

Please, send some links. Some information a lay person can understand. Im open to everything.

So just chill, and come foward with the info please.

What about the 1 in 5 needed to vote to go to EU headquaters? no one answered that yet. But i cant wait for some answers. (posted ..earlier..look up)

m.

I've already stated my intention to vote yes and my reasons why, here's just a few of my posts.
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=61678415#post61678415
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=61702366#post61702366

Not mine but still this one should be read by all:
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61945811&postcount=155

Read the thread first, or at least look through my contributions before embarrassing yourself.

Scofflaw

mattman wrote: »

i will. thanks for the info.

This may take some time.

m.

Also this - http://www.lisbonexposed.org - which is a searchable and summarised version, with Nice alongside for comparison.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Stark

Summary of changes affecting national parliaments : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_lisbon#National_parliaments

QMV explained: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualified_majority_voting

Yellowsubmarine

Im definitely voting no we voted no the last time and now we have to vote again its like there trying to force everyone to vote yes :mad:

whatdoicare

I hate to repeat myself- I already voted NO - how many more times do we have to say No until they cop on.
As far as I'm concerned something dodgy is going on that were not being told and we wont learn of it till after were all in deep doodoo.

marco_polo

Yellowsubmarine wrote: »

Im definitely voting no we voted no the last time and now we have to vote again its like there trying to force everyone to vote yes :mad:

If you are being forced to vote yes, then how can it be possible for you to vote no?

Yellowsubmarine

marco_polo wrote: »

If you are being forced to vote yes, then how can it be possible for you to vote no?

dont twist my words i said its LIKE ther trying to force people to vote yes ...like if we vote no again this time are they just going to keep getting people to vote until its a yes

The Volt

Yellowsubmarine wrote: »

Im definitely voting no we voted no the last time and now we have to vote again its like there trying to force everyone to vote yes :mad:

There seems to be an endless amount of people who say the same thing on this thread everyday. After a few responses they disappear into the shadows and most don't come back, it's only a matter of time before the next comes. Instead of responding this time I'd just like to say that there are some great arguements to your 'doubts' about the treaty on the previous few pages, again I'll link my favourite Lisbon post yet.
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61945811&postcount=155

The Volt

Yellowsubmarine wrote: »

dont twist my words i said its LIKE ther trying to force people to vote yes ...like if we vote no again this time are they just going to keep getting people to vote until its a yes

That's for your democratically elected Cabinet to decide

Yellowsubmarine

obviously a lot of people are going to be saying the same thing there saying if there voting yes or no that was the question after all

Dinner

Yellowsubmarine wrote: »

obviously a lot of people are going to be saying the same thing there saying if there voting yes or no that was the question after all

If you don't mind me asking, how much research have you done into the events and negotiations that have taken place since the first Lisbon referendum?

Yellowsubmarine

Not that much to be honest I'm looking more into it now on the internet because the leaflet we got in the door was a load of S*** I just don't like what i'm hearing about it so