Couch surfers refused entry to Ireland

DamoDLK

Captain Morgan wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

It actually doesn't matter we cant afford any bad publicity! The fact that they complained - they shouldn't be condemned for it! If it happened me in NYC for sure i'd be on to Joe Duffy when i got back!!

Quint

“If they want us to go to their country, they shouldn’t do this,” said Colin Zwirko, 21, who sold his Volkswagen to help pay for the trip. “They should step up and apologize or help.”

Magnus wrote: »

F U P O F F

The arrogance and stupitidy from this guy is astounding! And he's being rewarded for it by D4 hotels! :mad:

Spiritoftheseventies

DamoDLK wrote: »

It actually doesn't matter we cant afford any bad publicity! The fact that they complained - they shouldn't be condemned for it! If it happened me in NYC for sure i'd be on to Joe Duffy when i got back!!

can't have been a pleasant experience for them. And as back packers they were travelling from country to country so a bit of lattitude should have been afforded. reminds of a case where a pregnant woman was not allowed on a return flight because she was near the end of her pregnancy. She had to get the boat home in the end.

Mimikyu

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The_Conductor

bayviewclose wrote: »

can't have been a pleasant experience for them. And as back packers they were travelling from country to country so a bit of lattitude should have been afforded. reminds of a case where a pregnant woman was not allowed on a return flight because she was near the end of her pregnancy. She had to get the boat home in the end.

Whats the problem?
Aerlingus turn away pregnant women all the time- you are not allowed to fly after 26 weeks. They have one of the lowest limits of any commercial airline. Fair enough- if you're over 26 weeks- don't fly aerlingus- or even better, don't fly. They probably did the pregnant woman a favour by making her take a boat home instead......

I've back packed around Europe. You do your research in advance- you bring with you what you need, you are polite and helpful to immigration officers etc. These guys bolloxed up, plain and simple. Were they ever abroad in their lives?

Quint

bayviewclose wrote: »

can't have been a pleasant experience for them. And as back packers they were travelling from country to country so a bit of lattitude should have been afforded. reminds of a case where a pregnant woman was not allowed on a return flight because she was near the end of her pregnancy. She had to get the boat home in the end.

The pregnant woman shouldn't have flown away in the first place. People should take responsibility for their own stupidity.
I bet these guys did research on what pubs to go to, what cheap hostels to go to, sites to see etc. Why on earth they didn't check what they needed to gain entry is beyond me. That's the first thing I check before I go anywhere!

Bob Z

c'mon though this Ireland. Its very unlikely that Americans are going to emigrate here illegally

Spiritoftheseventies

Quint wrote: »

The pregnant woman shouldn't have flown away in the first place. People should take responsibility for their own stupidity.
I bet these guys did research on what pubs to go to, what cheap hostels to go to, sites to see etc. Why on earth they didn't check what they needed to gain entry is beyond me. That's the first thing I check before I go anywhere!

Yes we should have a separate post on the stupid things tourists do. and it would go on for ages.

The_Conductor

Bob Z wrote: »

c'mon though this Ireland. Its very unlikely that Americans are going to emigrate here illegally

There used to be plenty of them working here shortterm in temp jobs (bar work, shop work, child minding etc) without permits. Some of them had really crap times here- others thought it was a wonderful experience. We've several members on this site from across the water who've had very mixed experiences. Thats life- you take the good with the bad. You'd be surprised.

Mimikyu

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SeaFields

Watched a news video a couple of posts back about how they thought thy were treated like criminals - an Irish person entering the states is going to be interrogated, fingerprinted and have a retinal scan. Pot calling the kettle black on that one.

I was in Australia last year. Didn't write down an address where i was staying either. Myself and the girlfriend went up to immigration guy with our immigration cards. Firstly I had the date I was entering oz wrong. Immigration guy joked that it was because of the jet lag and asked me to change it. Secondly he asked where we were staying. We said we didnt know yet, we were going to book into a hostel and then hire a campervan for the holiday.

"no problem mate, enjoy your trip!"

In all seriousness wasn't Ireland criticized recently by the EU because of the "care free" manner of our immigration guys at Dublin airport?

Duckjob

First of all, border and immigration staff in general are anal, rulebook-following creatures, and to be honest, when watching shows like Border Control I often wonder about the personal motivations of people who apply for such jobs.

Having said that, it's be no means unique to Ireland. It's the same the world over, and that's their job - to be emotionless rule-book sticklers.

With this simple fact in mind, anybody who turns up at a border without appropriate documentation with i's dotted and t's crossed is an idiot and doesn't have any right to whinge when they are refused entry.

Also, they (and some people here by the looks of it) really need to lose the "We're american, bend over" attitude.

Spiritoftheseventies

SeaFields wrote: »

Watched a news video a couple of posts back about how they thought thy were treated like criminals - an Irish person entering the states is going to be interrogated, fingerprinted and have a retinal scan. Pot calling the kettle black on that one.

I was in Australia last year. Didn't write down an address where i was staying either. Myself and the girlfriend went up to immigration guy with our immigration cards. Firstly I had the date I was entering oz wrong. Immigration guy joked that it was because of the jet lag and asked me to change it. Secondly he asked where we were staying. We said we didnt know yet, we were going to book into a hostel and then hire a campervan for the holiday.

"no problem mate, enjoy your trip!"

In all seriousness wasn't Ireland criticized recently by the EU because of the "care free" manner of our immigration guys at Dublin airport?

how can EU criticise us for care free manner of our immigration guys. we were only one of three countries that opened our borders to the accession states. So we provided employment to members of other states. regardless of what followed in terms of wage rates i would think EU would be if anything thanking us.

Quint

Duckjob wrote: »

Also, they (and some people here by the looks of it) really need to lose the "We're american, bend over" attitude.

If these guys were from any other country this wouldn't make the news. How dare we refuse americans!

SeaFields

bayviewclose wrote: »

how can EU criticise us for care free manner of our immigration guys. we were only one of three countries that opened our borders to the accession states. So we provided employment to members of other states. regardless of what followed in terms of wage rates i would think EU would be if anything thanking us.

Dont ask me, ask them!!

It was a buddy of mine said that to me as we had the usual quick wave through passport control without the remotest look at our passports after a trip to england recently. That was in Cork tho!

hidinginthebush

tough break but serves em right for tryin to take the pis$, should've done their research.

munchkin_utd

Whats the fuss about.

If these eejits had a simple hostel booking for a couple of euro then they would have been grand.

i have a friend with a Serbian passport and literally a confirmed booking for a hostel for the first few nights was alway enough to get a visa in advance for ireland .
Unlike the yanks, they dont get the priviledge of just turning up at the immigration in Dublin and looking for a visa waiver on the spot

If you chat to anyone from eastern europe you'll begin to realise what a serious matter border checks can be and that the very miniumum you should have is to have your paperwork in order.

gazzer

Am I missing something here? The guys had enough funds with them (the fact they had to fork out €1300 each for flights home showed this). On top of this a call to the number they guys had confirmed that they would be staying at that persons house. One of the guys had his laptop with him and offered to show his bank statements.

The mad thing is that if the guys had have lied and said they were staying at "X Hotel" in Dublin city they would have got through no problem. One of the guys mentioned that an american backpacker in front of them at the q said she was staying in a hostel and was waved through. There was no check done to see if she actually was staying there.

Run_to_da_hills

"Couch surfing"a new buzz word for the Irish authorities, Hmmm, "How can we tax those freeloding knuts?"

Ardent

gazzer wrote: »

The mad thing is that if the guys had have lied and said they were staying at "X Hotel" in Dublin city they would have got through no problem. One of the guys mentioned that an american backpacker in front of them at the q said she was staying in a hostel and was waved through.

Forgetting for a second how downright dumb they were, the above would drive anyone mad tbf.

Bob the Seducer

Quint wrote: »

If these guys were from any other country this wouldn't make the news. How dare we refuse americans!

That's basically it, isn't it?

If it was three Chinese or Russian students who turned up with no departure date/ticket, no address where they were staying and no official proof of finances would we (a) bend the rules to let them in, (b) spend 9 pages talking about them if we didn't and (c) have hotels falling over themselves to bring them back and put them up because we didn't let them in?

I doubt it on all three counts.

IvyTheTerrible

Bob the Seducer wrote: »

That's basically it, isn't it?

If it was three Chinese or Russian students who turned up with no departure date/ticket, no address where they were staying and no official proof of finances would we (a) bend the rules to let them in, (b) spend 9 pages talking about them if we didn't and (c) have hotels falling over themselves to bring them back and put them up because we didn't let them in?

I doubt it on all three counts.

Yeah people would come on shouting "Those goddamn immigints!" :rolleyes:

Spiritoftheseventies

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

Yeah people would come on shouting "Those goddamn immigints!" :rolleyes:

Still not a great advertisement for the country when we need all the tourists we can get. Americans have provided a lot of jobs here.

IvyTheTerrible

bayviewclose wrote: »

Still not a great advertisement for the country when we need all the tourists we can get. Americans have provided a lot of jobs here.

I don't care. Those are the rules. We bend the rules for them, we'll have to bend the rules for everybody. It's not that hard to find out what documents you need for immigration control. You'd never hear this fuss over someone not getting into the us.

PS and no US company is going to change a decision to locate here based on a few couch surfers, in fairness.

Spiritoftheseventies

how many days where they going to be staying in all. maybe a week in all. Much ado about nothing?

spurious

I doubt they were huge spenders.

IvyTheTerrible

bayviewclose wrote: »

how many days where they going to be staying in all. maybe a week in all. Much ado about nothing?

They didn't have a return ticket as they were doing a round Europe trip. AFAIK they were planning to leave in a week but had no concrete plans.

IvyTheTerrible

spurious wrote: »

I doubt they were huge spenders.

And now they're getting their hotel for free...great benefit to the economy there!! :rolleyes:

Run_to_da_hills

spurious wrote: »

I doubt they were huge spenders.

It works both ways, freeloaders from Ireland "Couch surf" in the States and visa versa, the real loosers are the hotels, youth hostels and B&B's. High accomodation charges in Ireland and elsewhere only encouraged and this in the first place.

spurious

There will be a 'whole story' somewhere. I've had couchsurfers checked up on many times by immigration, in at least one case immigration were aware one surfer's brother had already over-stayed here and still they let my surfer in. He didn't over stay and all was well.
These guys must have given an odd answer or something if immigration checked with their host and still didn't let them in.

Zoodlebop

Here, could the people who've never couchsurfed before and know absolutely nothing about it please refrain from calling it "freeloading". That just shows ignorance.

Mimikyu

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Zoodlebop

These guys had:

- Sufficient funds

- Shown where they we're going to be staying (admittedly, they could have done better. I don't usually give 'surfers my address as I like to meet them in town and make sure they're legit first). What is insufficient about a phone call to an Irish resident who confirms that Colin Zwirko and his friends will indeed be staying with him.

- No criminal convictions

So why turn them away? Even if they were cheeky or whatever, there is no immigration law about that. I am the only person on the whole forum who actually talked to the immigration officer in question and from our conversation she sounded like a power-tripping idiot.

My verdict: Immigration let down some perfectly legitimate tourists.

mickoneill30

Zoodlebop wrote: »

I am the only person on the whole forum who actually talked to the immigration officer in question ......

And she explained the whole decision making process to you and everything that happened between immigration and the 3 guys? Or not?

Zoodlebop

mickoneill30 wrote: »

And she explained the whole decision making process to you? Or not?

No. All she asked me was whether I knew them, where I was staying and was I expecting them. She asked how I knew them. There was then a long pause and she said, snappishly, that she was probably not going to let them in anyway.

I just take issue with all the people on here assuming that the 3 backpackers are idiots. Having talked to the other half of the occurrence, I think, and from more solid ground than the internet character judges on here, that she was the idiot in the situation.

I have heard Colin's side of the story first hand and the treatment seems incredibly unfair.

spurious

Sounds like she had already made her mind up before she spoke to you.

mickoneill30

Zoodlebop wrote: »

I just take issue with all the people on here assuming that the 3 backpackers are idiots. Having talked to the other half of the occurrence, I think, and from more solid ground than the internet character judges on here, that she was the idiot in the situation.

Fair enough if the immigration person was the idiot would we not be hearing of more backpackers being shipped back to the U.S. though.

Paparazzo

Zoodlebop wrote: »

No. All she asked me was whether I knew them, where I was staying and was I expecting them. She asked how I knew them. There was then a long pause and she said, snappishly, that she was probably not going to let them in anyway.

I just take issue with all the people on here assuming that the 3 backpackers are idiots. Having talked to the other half of the occurrence, I think, and from more solid ground than the internet character judges on here, that she was the idiot in the situation.

I have heard Colin's side of the story first hand and the treatment seems incredibly unfair.

If they weren't idiots they would have had bank statements, had a ticket out of the country, and wrote down the name of a random hotel.

Zoodlebop

mickoneill30 wrote: »

Fair enough if the immigration person was the idiot would we not be hearing of more backpackers being shipped back to the U.S. though.

That's a really good fecking point. How hadn't I thought about that. I suppose it's possible that she was new on the job or something. You'd think that there would be a chain of command backing up decisions like that though. I suppose the lack of a ticket out of Ireland was the clincher. I've never had to have one going either way across the Atlantic as I'm a dual national. Sigh.

Is that really the rule though. Do you have to have proof of onward travel? Aren't sufficient funds good enough? Can someone who actually knows tell us?

Mimikyu

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asdasd

Judging from what Zoodlebop is saying the immigration officer was somewhat at fault. That said, the idea that this is news is beyond me. How many people were turned away that day at some EU port of entry? How many in the US? Why are some stories newsworthy?

They seem a bit connected.

Zoodlebop being on boards is an example of how this forum is better than most newspapers.

Spiritoftheseventies

asdasd wrote: »

Judging from what Zoodlebop is saying the immigration officer was somewhat at fault. That said, the idea that this is news is beyond me. How many people were turned away that day at some EU port of entry? How many in the US? Why are some stories newsworthy?

They seem a bit connected.

Zoodlebop being on boards is an example of how this forum is better than most newspapers.

Its clear these guys were merely here on holiday. Was a bit mean minded of them to send them all the way back to New York.

Thirdfox

Two wrongs don't make a right but...

At least they weren't arrested and put in jail - Italian lawyer locked up for 10 days without legal counsel after flying to the US to see his girlfriend:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/14/us/14visa.html

NYTimes wrote:

Italian’s Detention Illustrates Dangers Foreign Visitors Face
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By NINA BERNSTEIN
Published: May 14, 2008

He was a carefree Italian with a recent law degree from a Roman university. She was “a totally Virginia girl,” as she puts it, raised across the road from George Washington’s home. Their romance, sparked by a 2006 meeting in a supermarket in Rome, soon brought the Italian, Domenico Salerno, on frequent visits to Alexandria, Va., where he was welcomed like a favorite son by the parents and neighbors of his girlfriend, Caitlin Cooper.
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Chris Warde-Jones for The New York Times

Domenico Salerno, with his girlfriend, Caitlin Cooper, in Rome on Sunday. He was held for 10 days in the United States after being denied entry.

But on April 29, when Mr. Salerno, 35, presented his passport at Washington Dulles International Airport, a Customs and Border Protection agent refused to let him into the United States. And after hours of questioning, agents would not let him travel back to Rome, either; over his protests in fractured English, he said, they insisted that he had expressed a fear of returning to Italy and had asked for asylum.

Ms. Cooper, 23, who had promised to show her boyfriend another side of her country on this visit — meaning Las Vegas and the Grand Canyon — eventually learned that he had been sent in shackles to a rural Virginia jail. And there he remained for more than 10 days, locked up without charges or legal recourse while Ms. Cooper, her parents and their well-connected neighbors tried everything to get him out.

Mr. Salerno’s case may be extreme, but it underscores the real but little-known dangers that many travelers from Europe and other first-world nations face when they arrive in the United States — problems that can startle Americans as much as their foreign visitors.

“We have a lot of government people here and lobbyists and lawyers and very educated, very savvy Washingtonians,” said Jim Cooper, Ms. Cooper’s father, a businessman, describing the reaction in his neighborhood, the Wessynton subdivision of Alexandria. “They were pretty shocked that the government could do this sort of thing, because it doesn’t happen that often, except to people you never hear about, like Haitians and Guatemalans.”

Each year, thousands of would-be visitors from 27 so-called visa waiver countries are turned away when they present their passports, said Angelica De Cima, a spokeswoman for Customs and Border Protection, who said she could not discuss any individual case. In the last seven months, 3,300 people have been rejected and more than 8 million admitted, she said.

Though citizens of those nations do not need visas to enter the United States for as long as 90 days, their admission is up to the discretion of border agents. There are more than 60 grounds for finding someone inadmissible, including a hunch that the person plans to work or immigrate, or evidence of an overstay, however brief, on an earlier visit.

While those turned away are generally sent home on the next flight, “there are occasional circumstances which require further detention to review their cases,” Ms. De Cima said. And because such “arriving aliens” are not considered to be in the United States at all, even if they are in custody, they have none of the legal rights that even illegal immigrants can claim.

Government officials have acknowledged that intensified security since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks has sometimes led to the heavy-handed treatment of foreigners caught in a bureaucratic tangle or paperwork errors. But despite encouraging officers to resolve such cases quickly, excesses continue to come to light.

One recent case involved an Icelandic woman who was refused entry at Kennedy Airport because, a dozen years earlier, she had overstayed her visa by three weeks. The woman, Erla Osk Arnardottir Lillendahl, was deported Dec. 10 after what she described as 24 hours of interrogation and humiliating treatment — locked in a cell and barred from making phone calls. The Department of Homeland Security later issued a letter of regret.

In questioning Mr. Salerno, customs agents seemed to suspect that he intended to work here. Ms. Cooper, a copy editor for an educational publication, said she was in the airport lobby when an agent called to ask about Mr. Salerno’s income and why he visited so often.

The youngest son of a prosperous contractor in Calabria, Mr. Salerno helps out in his brother’s law firm in Rome and is able to visit the United States several times a year. Neighbors said he joined volunteers in refurbishing the Wessynton recreation center in 2006, then became one of its summer attractions, kicking a soccer ball with the kids and playing tennis with the adults.

“He just is a very open, fun and helpful guy,” said Christopher M. Porter, a resident of Wessynton.

Ms. Cooper said that at the airport, when she begged to know what was happening to Mr. Salerno, an agent told her, “You know, he should try spending a little more time in his own country.”

Another agent eventually told her to go home because Mr. Salerno was being detained as an asylum-seeker.

“The border patrol officer said to my face that Domenico said he would be killed if he went back to Italy,” she recalled, voicing incredulity that, in his halting English, he could express such a thought. “Also, who on earth would ever seek asylum from Italy?”

Twelve hours later, when Mr. Salerno was granted a five-minute phone call, he called Ms. Cooper and denied saying anything of the kind. Instead, he said, the asylum story seemed to be retaliation for his insisting on speaking to his embassy.

After being turned over to Immigration and Customs Enforcement, he was taken to the Pamunkey Regional Jail in Hanover, Va., where he ended up in a barracks with 75 other men, including asylum-seekers who told him they had been waiting a year.

Ten days after he landed in Washington, Mr. Salerno was still incarcerated, despite efforts by Senator John W. Warner, Republican of Virginia, and two former immigration prosecutors hired by the Coopers.

“He’s just really scared,” Ms. Cooper said in an interview last Thursday. “He asked me if Virginia has the death penalty.”

Luis Paoli, a lawyer hired by the Coopers, said there was no limit on detention while waiting for an asylum interview. But even after officials agreed the asylum issue had been a mistake, Mr. Salerno was not released.

“Now an innocent European, who has never broken any laws, committed any crimes, or overstayed his visa, is being held in a county jail,” Ms. Cooper wrote in an e-mail message to The New York Times last Wednesday, prompting a reporter’s inquiries.

Less than 24 hours later, immigration officials intervened and arranged to deliver Mr. Salerno to Dulles, where last Friday he flew to Rome. Ms. Cooper, who said she was now considering moving to Italy, was by his side.

Mr. Salerno was still shaken. “In America,” he said, “there are so many good people and beautiful people that don’t deserve to be showing these terrible things to the world.”

I rarely post on AH - but listening to Newstalk today just made me so angry that stupidity is rewarded with a free trip.

edit:
Having said that - after visiting 15 countries and 104 cities, I find that once you are prepared and have all documentation in order, customs and border patrol is a breeze.

You have idiots everywhere though - I've heard of lots of stories about Irish people who turn up at the embassy the day before their flight looking for a visa *facepalm*.

the_syco

Captain Morgan wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Proves that you plan to stay there for a holiday, and not illegally work there. Not too much of a problem, but we're in a recession, so the rules may have changed.

donkey balls

i was recently in the usa before i travelled i had to apply for a visa with the embassey. this meant calling a 1580 nbr to make an apiontment where calls where charged at 3.60 e a min(last on average 12 mins)

then you go to the interveiw where they ask you a **** load of questions&issue you the visa its only when you get to customs in the usa where they ask you a load of questions say anything wrong and your on the next flight home.
most of the border patrol&dhs staff are rude as well treating everyone like a criminal

Spiritoftheseventies

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/free-holiday-offer-for-us-trio-denied-entry-1815687.html
update on three americans read the last line.

mickoneill30

bayviewclose wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/free-holiday-offer-for-us-trio-denied-entry-1815687.html
update on three americans read the last line.

Read the third paragraph.

Is this thread not dead yet. Everybodys said every possible thing about these three guys and immigration.

RedmondM

ArseBurger wrote: »

I'd probably start with the Irish Naturalisation & Immigration Service http://www.inis.gov.ie/

But, that's just me. And Google.

Well, smarty-pants, did you actually look at the site, and look for the requirements for visitors who do not need a visa?

It says NOTHING about what is required from those visitors who don't need a visa.

No-where does it say: Bring bank statements, return tickets, proof of address, or such.

Compare that with the UK Border Agency;
http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/visitingtheuk/visitors/eligibility/
To come to the United Kingdom as a general visitor you must be able to show that you:

• only want to visit the United Kingdom for up to six months;
• plan to leave the United Kingdom at the end of your visit;
• have enough money to support and accommodate yourself without working, help from public funds or you will be supported and accommodated by relatives or friends;
• do not intend to charge members of the public for services provided or goods received;
• do not intend to study; and
• can meet the cost of the return or onward journey.
• do not intend to carry out business, sport or entertainer visitor activities;
• do not intend to marry or form a civil partnership or give notice of marriage or civil partnership;
• do not intend to receive private medical treatment during your visit , and
• are not in transit to a country outside the Common Travel Area.

Stephen

Holsten wrote: »

Would an Irish person be let into the states without a return ticket?

They let me in on a 1-way ticket last week! But then I had to go to the embassy beforehand and get an appropriate (and expensive) visa, etc.

This is the very definiton of a storm in a tea cup. Will Immigration turning away 3 of the great unwashed masses have a negative effect on the economy as many are claiming. Will it stop other Americans from travelling here. No it won't. How many Irish people have been turned away by American Immigration, yet no one has ever made a big deal about it.

No one knows what they did or didn't do but I have my doubts that Immigration were the bad guys here. Why would they pick on 3 innocent American travellers and leave the hundreds of thousands of other Americans who routinly fly here alonw. Someone spoke of hearing about the dreadful experience they suffered first hand. Not exaclty proof of any wrong doing by Immigration, for all we know the 3 of them were abusive to the staff.

As for those saying that couch surfers are freeloaders, well a lot of them are but like eveything in like it's a mixed bunch. In my old house one of my housemates let a couch surfer stay. He was supposed to stay for 2 nights, ended up staying for 2 weeks. He took everything he could and gave absolutly nothing back. He would invite himself out with us and then get into rounds until it was his turn where he would disappear to the bar and return with a drink for himself and what ever girl was there he liked. He did it once to me and from there out I excluded him in every round. He told one of my housemates that I was cheap for excluding him in rounds.