DFA releases Lisbon white paper

sink

A new white paper on Lisbon plus has been released. I'm reading it now and will give my opinion later but for those who want to read it for themselves here it is.

http://www.lisbontreaty.ie/documents/WhitePaper_English.pdf

Scofflaw

I predict outrage from the predictable quarters...

predictively,
Scofflaw

Iwasfrozen

I find it funny that no matter how much information there is on the internet euroskeptics still claim the treaty is "unreadable".
Is there any chance this could be stickyed ?

K-9

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I find it funny that no matter how much information there is on the internet euroskeptics still claim the treaty is "unreadable".
Is there any chance this could be stickyed ?

No, if your version is different to theirs, it's unreadable.

Scofflaw

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I find it funny that no matter how much information there is on the internet euroskeptics still claim the treaty is "unreadable".
Is there any chance this could be stickyed ?

For the moment, certainly. We might put together a "useful Lisbon downloads" at some point.

cordially,
Scofflaw

conchubhar1

how about the actual treaty texts - as opposed to someone elses views/summary

no matter how impartial it is/supposed to be

you can not summarise something without your own views weighing heavily in it

Iwasfrozen

conchubhar1 wrote:

how about the actual treaty texts - as opposed to someone elses views/summary

no matter how impartial it is/supposed to be

you can not summarise something without your own views weighing heavily in it

The Government is constitutionaly banned from supporting any side in a referendum.
Any document realised by the Department of Foreign Affairs would have been assesed by a team of soliciters to determine its fairness.

conchubhar1

that is not my problem with it

the only way to have a fair and balanced view on this would be to read the actualy treaty and make up your own mind

because with summaries etc - even subconsciously - the writers views are passed on what is being written.

PopeBuckfastXVI

Well the treaty, and more importantly the consolidated versions, are available online already, I guess the DFA could host a mirror, but I don't see the point.

Believe it or not some people actually want a simpler interpretation, and many people trust the civil servants in the DFA who would prepare such a document.

I don't like it myself, I think it speaks 'down' a bit too much, but that's a personal taste thing.

conchubhar1

its not about trust - its the same in anything your viewpoint obviuously has a bearing on what you write about (summarise)

it is the same in journalists, teachers and authors

oscarBravo

conchubhar1 wrote: »

its not about trust - its the same in anything your viewpoint obviuously has a bearing on what you write about (summarise)

it is the same in journalists, teachers and authors

So, nothing is ever trustworthy except the original text?

I shouldn't believe any writings about Newton's laws; instead I should learn Latin and read Principia myself? My physics texts are inherently biased?

conchubhar1

i didnt say that......

---

this isnt a translation for one

they arent changing how the eu and ireland are run for a second

---
modified a bit to suit this discussion but: custodiam ipsos custodes - and you may agree since you have qouted that - which is latin oddly eneough considering your above example

Scofflaw

I have to agree - any translation, summary, or interpretation of a text will almost inevitably involve the exercise of judgement, and that judgement will be influenced by the viewpoint of the person. I don't see how it couldn't, really - although I believe Libertas' argument about the free book they distributed rather relied on the view that Jens-Peter Bonde doesn't suffer from such bias.

That doesn't make the various summaries etc useless, particularly where they are designed specifically for scrutiny in a court or parliament. It does mean that you need to read the summary with an eye on the Treaty itself. If the offered summary doesn't conflict with what's in the Treaty as far as one has read, there does come a point where one can say that the summary is reliable.

cordially,
Scofflaw

bokspring71

conchubhar1 wrote: »

how about the actual treaty texts - as opposed to someone elses views/summary

no matter how impartial it is/supposed to be

you can not summarise something without your own views weighing heavily in it

NO doubt the editoralising by the DFA has been strictly neutral and impartial! The DFA's policy is to support Lisbon and support the EU, so to read their view of the treaty is about as impartial as to read Declan Ganley's version of the treaty.

They only version of the treaty which counts in the treaty itself, and not someone's editorialiased view of it, more especially when they themselves have a partial interest.

Red Sleeping Beauty

The White Paper is available free of charge from the OPW Government Bookshop and also from the European Parliament Information Office in Ireland. Both are on Moleworth St. in Dublin which is off of Dawson St. The European Parliament office has the "Consolidated versions of the Treaty on European Union and the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union", also available free of charge (despite there being a price of "58 EUR" on the front page).


The DFA link above is dead. Here's one that works : http://www.lisbontreaty.ie/documents/WhitePaper_English.pdf

The Lisbon treaty texts can be seen here on this site : http://eur-lex.europa.eu/en/treaties/index.htm
This site has :

• Consolidated versions of the Treaty on European Union and the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union
• Treaty of Lisbon amending the Treaty on European Union and the Treaty establishing the European Community,
• Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union
• EUROPEAN UNION — CONSOLIDATED VERSIONS OF THE TREATY ON EUROPEAN UNION AND OF THE TREATY ESTABLISHING THE EUROPEAN COMMUNITY

The Lisbon Treaty consists of ammendments to the "CONSOLIDATED VERSIONS OF THE TREATY ON EUROPEAN UNION AND OF THE TREATY ESTABLISHING THE EUROPEAN COMMUNITY". The "Consolidated versions of the Treaty on European Union and the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union" is the text that contains these ammendments. The Lisbon Treaty is also available in one full PDF file here.



If any information here is wrong I apologise and am open to correction.

marco_polo

Since this no longer seems to exist on the IIEA site I am uploading the Peadar ó*Broin consolidated version of the treaty. Excellent for comparing what was removed / added at the various stages

PHB

The IIEA Annotated Treaties is available here. It's free to download but costs €50 to buy a printed version.

http://iiea.com/publications/the-consolidated-and-annotated-version-of-the-treaties-as-amended-by-the-treaty-of-lisbon

marco_polo

PHB wrote: »

The IIEA Annotated Treaties is available here. It's free to download but costs €50 to buy a printed version.

http://iiea.com/publications/the-consolidated-and-annotated-version-of-the-treaties-as-amended-by-the-treaty-of-lisbon

That is the one, I have seen a few broken links to it recently on other sites so I thought it had been removed. I even remember being on that page looking for it, didn't notice the link