Is Unarmed Combat of any practical use in an army ?

McArmalite

Ok, I know we've all seen a scene from a movie where two fellows run out of amo and one draws a bayonet and they fight to the death. And then their's the commando sneaking up on an enemy sentry and slitting his throat or knocking him out with a Karate chop.

I'm a martial arts nut myself BTW ( do Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, and also Boxed and done Tae Kwon Do ), but apart from giving a fellow a bit of confidence and keeping him fit, in this day and age with the array of weapons a soldier carries, well, is there much use for unarmed combat ?

Or indeed do army's do much unarmed combat training ( I heard that the Navy SEALS do a fair bit ) ?

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

FIBUA - Fighting in a built up area.

This is where it could come in handy. You could be in a position where you may not be able to shoot. I never heard of our lads getting trained in it. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen though.

I see the French Foreign Legion training in hand to hand still.

A stiuation could arise that you need to fight hand to hand, so it could be a valuable asset, I couldn't see it being used very often though.

enda1

Wasn't there some hostage rescue misson in the last year where non-deadly force was used in case they killed a hostage?
I'm sure its useful in these situations.

Hagar

In E&E situations where you would be un-armed it could be a life saver.

getz

McArmalite wrote: »

Ok, I know we've all seen a scene from a movie where two fellows run out of amo and one draws a bayonet and they fight to the death. And then their's the commando sneaking up on an enemy sentry and slitting his throat or knocking him out with a Karate chop.

I'm a martial arts nut myself BTW ( do Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, and also Boxed and done Tae Kwon Do ), but apart from giving a fellow a bit of confidence and keeping him fit, in this day and age with the array of weapons a soldier carries, well, is there much use for unarmed combat ?

Or indeed do army's do much unarmed combat training ( I heard that the Navy SEALS do a fair bit ) ?

the SAS are trained in judo also many of them train in shotokan, i have worked with two of them on a weapons kata a many years ago

Rujib1

Irish army will not have any money for pea shooters after bord snip nua, so a bit of fisty cuff training could come in handy
Probably not enough money in the pot to train both of them in the first year, so do it over say 10 years or so:cool:

R

arybvtcw0eolkf

Maybe in a special forces unit, but in a line unit IMO its a waste of valuable training time.

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iceage

The Israelis have done a lot with KM. Very effective system and its variations.

arybvtcw0eolkf

iceage wrote: »

The Israelis have done a lot with KM. Very effective system and its variations.

The average Israeli soldier will get at best, an introduction to KM & thats about it - they have 155mm sp gun's and real planes to do the real work :P

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iceage

Thats a fact. And if you ever get THAT close to your enemy your in the ****...there are no rules, Martial Arts go out the window at that point. MMA in my book, anything goes.

Fratton Fred

wasn't there a couple of "Fix Bayonets" orders given in Iraq. I remember one of the Scottish regiments were involved in hand to hand fighting at some point.

Not marshall arts I know, but definately a situation where being able to look after yourself is going to come in very handy.

iceage

There sure was.....also in Afghanistan....

Get Baron James Shortt on the blower, an advocate of the ancient art of Bayonet Fencing.

arybvtcw0eolkf

iceage wrote: »

MMA in my book, anything goes.

Actually it doesn't!.

MMA is a sport, it'll always be a sport and so is fought under a set of rules with a referee to ensure the safety of both fighters.

What martial arts can never replicate is violence, sure you'll fight/spar aggressive & assertive opponents but they'll never have the intent to kill you.

They'll never have weapons to hand, or webbing/smocks to grab. The MMA fighter will never have trained against a kick in the balls, or gouging an eye or against weapons such as your bayonet, or a head butt etc..

However training in a Martial Art should give you an edge over an untrained opponent, but its not realistic to expect an ordinary line unit to provide the constant, regular training necessary to effectly fight on the battle field.

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Dublin_Gunner

iceage wrote: »

There sure was.....also in Afghanistan....

Get Baron James Shortt on the blower, an advocate of the ancient art of Bayonet Fencing.

Special Forces in the Tora Bora mountain / cave network I believe came under a lot of hand to hand combat situations, as there wasn't enough room to use their weapons effectively.

But once again, wasn't regular army.

iceage

You mis-read me Makikomi, Not for second saying that MMA can ever replicate a fight for your life. I used it for referance, MMA combines various arts, but can utilise any of them, but is strictly controlled by rules.

I was just stating that in a true last stand fight for your life anything goes, eye gouging, bollock ripping, biting and such like...you know the stuff, goes on most weekends outside Abrakebabra :P Ahhhh can't beat the glasgow kiss.

Also, I'm fairly sure quite a lot of regular soldiers sort themselves out with a bit of MA training, its good for the soul. What ever takes your fancy.

BigDuffman

iceage wrote: »

I was just stating that in a true last stand fight for your life anything goes, eye gouging, bollock ripping, biting and such like...you know the stuff, goes on most weekends outside Abrakebabra :P Ahhhh can't beat the glasgow kiss.

A bit of KM is handy for that!

The marines use an UAC System called MCMAP Marine Corps Martial Arts Program which is actually fairly practical. I had a roll round a mat with one of the lads who did a bit of work with it and its a mish mash of a few different styles, very American, lots of slogans and Bullsh*t but quite practical to what they do. Their "belting system" is interesting too.

The RMC / BA in general have always been one for implementing some UAC training into what they do (Fairbairn-Sykes etc) in fact the brits have always been on the ball with regards to this.

As they will end up staring down the barrel of an AK when FISH its probably a good idea for them to be able to throw down when necessary.

Also in the case of an unruly populous in a riot / prisoners it would be a benefit to know effective Control & Restraint. But having every Pte. in the Irish army issued with Throwing stars, Katana's and being a master of waxing on and off would be a waste of time as its not hugely practical to their current role.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

enda1 wrote: »

Wasn't there some hostage rescue misson in the last year where non-deadly force was used in case they killed a hostage?
I'm sure its useful in these situations.

Doesn't mean hand to hand though. Could have used tear gas, stun gernads and rubber bullets to subdue their enemies.

the_syco

iceage wrote: »

Thats a fact. And if you ever get THAT close to your enemy your in the ****...there are no rules, Martial Arts go out the window at that point.

Sure, anything goes, but knowing where to hit, and how to deflect can equal winning or losing.

MM will know more about this.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Oh, and no rusty bayonettes O.o... So, not everything goes

Overheal

Its kind of the same logic behind the Dogfight. Nobody thought it would be necessary after the A2A missile. Then they started getting slaughtered. In Dog Fights. Because the big wigs saw no need to keep the planes armed with close-in guns. And ever since, its remained a key design factor both in the planes and the training of their pilots, despite the abject scarceness of actual dogfighting in modern war.

If you wanna try this for yourself, play a bunch of L4D and then go back to CSS and see how many times you try uselessly to hit your enemy with the butt of your rifle

piby

Even when FIBUA how often would it occur that both combatents would end up with no weapons at all? I doubt it happens all that often. Hence for a regular line unit it's a waste of resources and time because the likelihood is you'll never use it. That said even if only once your life as a soldier you needed those skills I'm sure you'd much rather have them then not. That's why I think most soldiers should, and do, train in some martial arts in their own time.

Obviously for more elite units conducting special roles it's far more important but that's a different matter.

AbusesToilets

It's not wide applicable, however it does play a role in CQB. Not really in movie style fighting, more along the lines of controlling any people that you don't kill. Good for building aggression and confidence too. A lot of the programs used by the US have a strong element focused on fighting with your kit on; learning it's advantages and disadvantages.

Poccington

All Army Recruits will go through 2 phases of Unarmed Combat training and depending on your Unit, you'll continue your education throughout your career.

Manic Moran

The difference between sports martial arts, self-defence martial arts, and military combatives, is that sports arts are played for points at which they stop, self defence martial arts don't care much what happens to the other guy as long as you can escape, and military combatives are designed to keep you alive long enough for your buddy to show up with a gun, without particular need for you to either escape or incapacitate the other guy. If you have to be on the receiving end of a pummeling, you can last quite a while when wearing plate armour and a helmet, if you know how to protect yourself.

The main purpose of hand-to-hand in the US Army until recently was really just for a bit of morale and to instill aggressiveness. However, it has since become a lot more practical. Not to defeat the other guy, just to prevent him from defeating you in the close encounters which keep cropping up in urban battles, and it comes in various levels from simple 'guards', through use of weapons such as an empty pistol or rifle, to the sort of thing that serious enthusiasts would get up to. Not least, your mobility is a bit limited when wearing 45lbs of armour, so those fancy Karate or Judo moves may prove tricky.

The bayonet charges mentioned earlier are something of a special case. The vast majority of bayonet charges are won or lost before the two sides make contact, it's primarily a psychological effect.

NTM

Morpheus

I recently underwent bayonette training - again - and it is fun

plenty of screaming and running and when we went one on one with each other (bayonettes in scabards of course!) it actually got quite aggresive.

from grabbing your oponent to headbutt him or knee him/her in the groin to hooking legs when the two weapons are tangled and forcing them onto their backs before running them through, its all over in seconds. I was shocked at how aggressive we got with each other at times and firmly believe in a real situation its aggression and adrenaline combined with very basic/simple techniques that will win or lose the combat.

Had to laugh when we were told that if our weapon wont withdraw from the "target" then fire a shot and the recoil will free it.... honestly if ive any shots left, ill be firing them long before I need to use a bayonette!

They dont like it up em... rings true!!!

Fratton Fred

Morphéus wrote: »

firmly believe in a real situation its aggression and adrenaline combined with very basic/simple techniques that will win or lose the combat.

at the risk of leaving myself open to national stereotyping, that is pretty much the tactics employed by English football fans the world over.

Go in hard, aggressive and with your arms flailing like a window, 9 times out of ten the other ****ers will run.....hopefully

iceage

Ahem...windmills.

Fratton Fred

iceage wrote: »

Ahem...windmills.

nah, feck windmills, hit with a bit of double glazing, that'll learn em

getz

the american army [special forces] learn a martial art called KAJUKENBO its a hybrid form and contains boxing,judo,juijitsu,kempo,kung fu, the british army learn CQC ,[close quarters combat] that contains judo, karate ,and or aikido/juijitu

arybvtcw0eolkf

Morphéus wrote: »

They dont like it up em... rings true!!!

"The Fuzzy Wuzzies sir, they don't like it up em"...



.

AbusesToilets

getz wrote: »

the american army [special forces] learn a martial art called KAJUKENBO its a hybrid form and contains boxing,judo,juijitsu,kempo,kung fu, the british army learn CQC ,[close quarters combat] that contains judo, karate ,and or aikido/juijitu

:rolleyes: sure, that and the ancient art of Eatadik, a fearsome system altogether.

They, along with most of the US military uses Modern Army Combatives as a basic starting point.

punchdrunk

watch this...

Lockstep

The Irish army has an unarmed combat course, Connect had a photo of the lads to got the certificate.

Irish_Army01

kickoutthejams wrote: »

The Irish army has an unarmed combat course, Connect had a photo of the lads to got the certificate.

That is correct..Very intensive 4 week cse for NCO and Officers..At this stage most if not all operational Units will have a good quota of Instructors..

I did my cse 4 years ago and its a great cse to do..

Craigsy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1HcOVTrLRs

The enemy cannot press the button if you disable his hand
:pac::pac:

senordingdong

Well it certainly wouldn't do you any harm.

McArmalite

Denver Purple Smorgasbord wrote: »

Actually it doesn't!.

MMA is a sport, it'll always be a sport and so is fought under a set of rules with a referee to ensure the safety of both fighters.

What martial arts can never replicate is violence, sure you'll fight/spar aggressive & assertive opponents but they'll never have the intent to kill you.

They'll never have weapons to hand, or webbing/smocks to grab. The MMA fighter will never have trained against a kick in the balls, or gouging an eye or against weapons such as your bayonet, or a head butt etc..

However training in a Martial Art should give you an edge over an untrained opponent, but its not realistic to expect an ordinary line unit to provide the constant, regular training necessary to effectly fight on the battle field.

.

I suppose Denver Purple Smorgasbord nails it, " However training in a Martial Art should give you an edge over an untrained opponent, but its not realistic to expect an ordinary line unit to provide the constant, regular training necessary to effectly fight on the battle field. "

twinytwo

McArmalite wrote: »

I suppose Makikomi nails it, " However training in a Martial Art should give you an edge over an untrained opponent, but its not realistic to expect an ordinary line unit to provide the constant, regular training necessary to effectly fight on the battle field. "

if your clearing a house or patroling the jungle... some dude decides to banzi charge you.. and your gun jams...what you going to scream at him??... i think everyone should be trained to a basic standard of unarmed combat

arybvtcw0eolkf

twinytwo wrote: »

if your clearing a house or patroling the jungle... some dude decides to banzi charge you.. and your gun jams...what you going to scream at him??... i think everyone should be trained to a basic standard of unarmed combat

Basic standard..

1, kick in the bollox.

2. Smack the fvcker in the face with (a) your rifle (b) your fist - but probably injury yourself or (c) run your bayonet through his gut.

3. Hope your mate has your back and blows his damn head off.

I'll tell you something, I've a black belt in one style of Martial Arts and a brown in another and in the situ you've described above surprise/fear/adrenline mean's I probably wouldn't do anything fancier than one or more of the above.

But get into a scrap and I'd most likely beat the guy, or at least do enough than I won't be beaten before either killing him, my mate killing him or making an escape.

Unarmed combat is pretty useless unless done regularly and in an 'alive' environment with resisting opponents to test your fitness/skills against.

Tbh, I'd rather see soldiers receive regular and intensive medical training than unarmed combat training. At least they're learning a skill which at some point WILL be useful to either themselves, their unit/comrades or their families & friends.

But hey, thats just me but it might make other's feel good about themselves.

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Burnt

This maybe an aside; but, BA are current running a series of "what would you
do" recruitment videos the latest one has them distrubing food aid and the
crowd starts to get unruly.

The advert gives three options, one of which includes breaking it up, clearly
opening fire into the crowd is not an acceptable response in this situation,
so would crowd control a.) come under combatives B.) be worthwhile or
seriously practised; for an army heavly involved in peacekeeping operations?

I feel the term martial arts of conjures up to many notions of a of ninja's or
samurai wannabe's, which may not be fair to everyone. A similar thread was
posted in the Garda/ES forum; by myself and it was largely dismissed out of
hand.

concussion

You forgot C-everybody back on the truck with the food, try again later

Burnt

concussion wrote: »

You forgot C-everybody back on the truck with the food, try again later

I don't disagree; merely curious if it would have a place?