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  • 09-07-2009 7:02pm
    #1
    superbad50
    Registered Users Posts: 375 ✭✭


    hi all friend of mine was working with her company for 13 years , as of last week she was sacked for giving some family members her staff discount and serving them at the same time . just wondering has she a leg to stand on with the appeal

    just to add , she has never been in any sort of trouble before - . personally i found it very harsh .

    any info grateful


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    #2
    helimachoptor
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 21,658 Mod ✭✭✭✭helimachoptor


    Most places stipulate that the staff discount on applies to the staff member, i.e. they cant apply that discount to friends/family members.
    But best to get her to contact a solicitor.


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    #3
    gerrycollins
    Registered Users Posts: 1,799 ✭✭✭gerrycollins


    superbad50 wrote: »
    hi all friend of mine was working with her company for 13 years , as of last week she was sacked for giving some family members her staff discount and serving them at the same time . just wondering has she a leg to stand on with the appeal

    just to add , she has never been in any sort of trouble before - . personally i found it very harsh .

    any info grateful

    Probably loads of stuff in her contract preventing her from doing this kinda activity especially the discount. as for serving your own family i know places where it is in the contract but not enforced.

    This activity is called "sweet hearting" and constitutes gross misconduct which is a instant dismissal offence.

    Considering she is there 13 years what ever period of notice she is supposed to give, ie 2 weeks most likely, then she is entitled to her notice paid.


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    #4
    [Jackass]
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,193 ✭✭✭[Jackass]


    What kind of "staff discount" are we talking here? 25% off cloths in a shop? Staff rates with a mortgage? 20% off flights etc...

    I mean how much money is at stake here? For cloths shops etc, I would think it would be very harsh. Technically, she could just purchase the cloths herself and give them to people who gave her the money etc., with rates on loans etc it's more serious.

    Did she sign a contract? Ask for a copy of all employment documentation and see exactly what it states (it may state staff discount is for staff members only, it may say staff discount is for staff members only and any abuse may result in disciplinary action, or it may say staff discount is for staff only and abuse will be deemed as gross neglagence etc...) What it says is very relevant.

    Also, what kind of proceudre was in place? Were they reminded not to use it for anything other than personal use (through email or written notice) or was it just assumed everyone knew?

    How often was she using it, was she giving discounts every day? Occasioanllay? Very rarely?

    How much would you estimate the cost to the company?

    What procedure was put in place to fire her? Was this discussed with her, investigated and she was let go, or did they find out and just fire her?

    Was she ever repremanded or warned for this in the past?

    All of these questions are relevant to if she has a leg to stand on.

    Either report back here and maybe we can help more, or, if no dismissal procedure was put in place (i.e. straight out "you're fired" without investigation and fair platform to explain herself), if it was rare enough that she did it, the cost was not major to the company, and they were never issued warning and it was assumed that once you signed your contract (13 years ago) that this would always be burned into your mind, the exact stipulations of the contract without any refresher on company procedure, then she may have a case.

    It's no harm discussing the exact details with a solicitor anyway....ring for a few quotes around the place, and regardless of the circumstances, should be able to receive very reasonable initial legal advice (i.e. is it worth persuing or not). Just make sure you have every fact and document when getting advice to get the most accurate advice on how to proceed.


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    #5
    x in the city
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,134 ✭✭✭x in the city


    superbad50 wrote: »
    hi all friend of mine was working with her company for 13 years , as of last week she was sacked for giving some family members her staff discount and serving them at the same time . just wondering has she a leg to stand on with the appeal

    just to add , she has never been in any sort of trouble before - . personally i found it very harsh .

    any info grateful



    she must be pretty dumb tbh, 13 yrs of work, she surely knew the drill.


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    #6
    leeroybrown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,563 ✭✭✭leeroybrown


    This tends to be standard practice among a lot of the large retailers and has been for years. The rules for using the staff discount tend to be quite constrained and staff are dismissed on the spot for breaching them. They generally view it an indirect form of theft. If she works for one of these retailers then she was asking for it.

    They might just have taken advantage of the situation to get rid of her for financial reasons. I know of plenty of people who've been getting warned whenever the opportunity arises and let go once procedure has taken it's course.

    As [Jackass] says above, if there aren't clear rules in place regarding the discount then perhaps they've jumped the gun and not followed proper procedure. In that case it may be worth her while getting some professional advice.


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    #7
    jenzz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 986 ✭✭✭jenzz


    superbad50 wrote: »
    hi all friend of mine was working with her company for 13 years , as of last week she was sacked for giving some family members her staff discount and serving them at the same time . just wondering has she a leg to stand on with the appeal

    just to add , she has never been in any sort of trouble before - . personally i found it very harsh .

    any info grateful


    Hi there. It will depend on her contract really & whats in it. Is there a disciplinary proceedure in the contract or company & did they follow it ? Generally there is a 6 or 7 step process & if the company didnt follow it she could have grounds for unfair dismissal. Other way is if the company are classing this as gross mis conduct & then that would also be clearly stated in her contract. Best advise for him/ her is a solicitor or the citizens advice. Best of luck.


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    #8
    dh0661
    Registered Users Posts: 2,630 ✭✭✭dh0661


    superbad50 wrote: »
    just wondering has she a leg to stand on with the appeal

    NO


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    #9
    Corruptedmorals
    Registered Users Posts: 4,194 ✭✭✭Corruptedmorals


    They should really have left it at a written warning/taking away of the privelege card, that's well harsh. Might they be looking for excuses to get rid of staff? She doesn't have a leg to stand on, as mentioned- contracts/handbooks stipulate this.


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    #10
    leeroybrown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,563 ✭✭✭leeroybrown


    Corruptedmorals wrote: »
    They should really have left it at a written warning/taking away of the privelege card, that's well harsh.
    As I pointed out above, at many of the larger retailers it's an instant dismissal and all the staff are aware that it's the one of the few things that guarantees them a P45.


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    #11
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    leeroybrown wrote: »
    As I pointed out above, at many of the larger retailers it's an instant dismissal and all the staff are aware that it's the one of the few things that guarantees them a P45.

    Even so, they are required to follow a disciplinary procedure before dismissing. Failure to follow appropriate procedures, even if she was absolutely guilty of gross misconduct, will mean she has a case.


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    #12
    leeroybrown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,563 ✭✭✭leeroybrown


    Absolam wrote: »
    Even so, they are required to follow a disciplinary procedure before dismissing. Failure to follow appropriate procedures, even if she was absolutely guilty of gross misconduct, will mean she has a case.
    I'm not disagreeing with you for a second. Any company I'm aware of who deals with staff discount abuse in this way have it as a formal part of their disciplinary process. My point was that if the OP was working for one of these retailers then it's not harsh, it's generally just a well defined policy that no one gets away with breaking.


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    #13
    Eoin
    Registered Users Posts: 21,257 ✭✭✭✭Eoin


    Absolam wrote: »
    Even so, they are required to follow a disciplinary procedure before dismissing. Failure to follow appropriate procedures, even if she was absolutely guilty of gross misconduct, will mean she has a case.

    But there's nothing to say what the disciplinary procedure actually is. There are recommendations, but that's about it.


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    #14
    Otis Driftwood
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,925 ✭✭✭Otis Driftwood


    My bro was in exactly the position a couple of years ago.

    Mid level managment in a well known sports retailer.
    A few old pairs of trainers left which he gave to staff members at a discounted rate - note,he didnt buy any himself,the only ones that got them were working in the store on this particular day.
    Someone reported him to head office.
    Suspended with pay for 1 week.
    Disciplinary hearing with HR,sacked within 10 days of the incident occuring.

    He thought he was doing the right thing by getting rid of stock that had been there for 12 months and marked down on numerous occasions but management saw it as basically defrauding the company.

    Im afraid your friend doesnt have any recourse.

    There may be some comeback however depending on how her sacking was handled.
    Everyone is entitled to a fair hearing,representation etc so if she didnt get this then she should speak to a soliciter.


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    #15
    wmpdd3
    Registered Users Posts: 9,624 ✭✭✭wmpdd3


    This is his/her chance to get some value for the 13 years worth of union subs they have paid!

    If she was a member they(or the shop steward) should have been representing her all the way through this.


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    #16
    superbad50
    Registered Users Posts: 375 ✭✭superbad50


    tnx for all the comments lads / ladies . she is still awaiting on the appeal but as far as i got from the comments she is pretty much screwed .
    i will post the results as this might open a few peoples eyes

    tnx again


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    #17
    superbad50
    Registered Users Posts: 375 ✭✭superbad50


    tnx for your comment jackass - sorry about the delay , still awaiting results of the appeal but to answer some of your questions , she used it 3 times , altogether no more then 10 euro each time if that . she was suspended for 2 weeks with pay . at the meeting she told the company she would hand back her supervisory role and take the paycut , and of course pay back the difference to the company . at the moment the union are looking after the appeal , not expecting much from then but maybe you can help me . what would be the best course of action to take if the appeal fails . i know rules are rules but i feel she has been victimised .

    any help appreciated


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    #18
    Otis Driftwood
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,925 ✭✭✭Otis Driftwood


    Im afraid once the company handled it properly (and it sounds like they have done thus far) and she already has the union involved then if the appeal fails then its case closed.Obviously as her friend,you feel that she is being victimised.

    The fact of the matter is,she de-frauded the company.It may have only been for 30 odd quid,but fraud is fraud.

    Thats the management persepctive.

    Things like this are going to become common place what with the current climate.
    They can get rid of her,pay someone less to do the same job,and if its a case that the company (like alot of retailers) have to make redundancies down the line,they are saving themselves a 13 year pay off.

    I think the best she can hope for is to get a decent written reference off the company and move on.

    If she wants to dig her heels in and go to the LRC or something,the danger is that the case will get press coverage,blackballing her with future potential employers.


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    #19
    wmpdd3
    Registered Users Posts: 9,624 ✭✭✭wmpdd3


    Looks like it was handled very well from and the outcome was fair in my opinion.


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    #20
    OrangeDaisy
    Registered Users Posts: 243 ✭✭OrangeDaisy


    I'd have to agree that the situation was handled correctly from a HR point of view if perhaps a little heavy-handed. I'd say there may be a problem with discount abuse already happening in the company and they wanted to make an example of someone


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    #21
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,301 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    superbad50 wrote: »
    she used it 3 times
    Once, sure, most people will overlook it, but 3 times... it sounds like a bad habit.


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    #22
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    If it was specifically prohibited in her contract then it could be seen as fraud and dishonesty. It can then be classed as gross misconduct.

    Unless the company relents, I dont think she can do anything about it.


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    #23
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    superbad50 wrote: »
    tnx for your comment jackass - sorry about the delay , still awaiting results of the appeal but to answer some of your questions , she used it 3 times , altogether no more then 10 euro each time if that . she was suspended for 2 weeks with pay . at the meeting she told the company she would hand back her supervisory role and take the paycut , and of course pay back the difference to the company . at the moment the union are looking after the appeal , not expecting much from then but maybe you can help me . what would be the best course of action to take if the appeal fails . i know rules are rules but i feel she has been victimised .

    any help appreciated

    Okay here is what I would do..... because she is going to be let go anyways.
    When she is asked to have a friend present at the appeal hearing, she should write to the company and tell them that she wants her solicitor to be present.

    They(HR) will automatically refuse this request....

    Then she tells the company that if/she is not allowed to have her solicitor present that the company are acting in an unfair and biased way that she has no other choice but to constructively dismiss herself from their employment.


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