Imagine if we all spoke Irish

asdasd

Thats it. Problem solved. Anti-Nationalists should speak Esperanto.

Ajos

asdasd wrote: »

Sure it does. I explained it earlier in the thread.

The anti-nationalists claim that speaking Irish is an nationalist act. I agree, It is.

I also claim that speaking English is an nationalist act. It is hardly a neutral act...

Another thought experiment. A man of English decent is born in Northern Wales where he grows up. learns Welsh, and yet refuses to speak it. The situation is not quite the same as here, as there are many Welsh speakers in Wales. The Welsh speakers would know English too, of course, but would wonder why the guy wants to speak English, having learnt Welsh.

I merely point out that speaking English in this case is a nationalist act. As it is in Ireland.

There is no neutral language.

I see...

Essentially, you're saying that your answer to my original question is "yes"!

And your thought experiment still fails, as I never learned Irish. Sitting in a classroom is not the same as learning. Would that it were!

Precious flower

I was really disappointed when I looked at the T.V guide and looked at the programs on TG4. I really felt that there were barely any Irish programs for young people. The majority of the programs were for older people. How can they encourage the younger generation to become more interested in our native language when it has no Irish programs suitable for them?

jill_valentine

asdasd wrote: »

The anti-nationalists want it both ways. They want to say

1) It is an accident of birth I was born here.
2) Dont question my Irishness becuase I was born here.

So which is it? Pray tell.

Oh it's yourself again. Right.

It's an accident of birth that I was born here. Therefore, I feel no pride in my nationality. It's something I just am. I had no part in this, it was not a decision I made; I can take no blame for the sins of my countrymen, or credit for their success.

The mere fact of my nationality is not an integral part of how I define myself. I don't think "Well, I'm Irish, so I should do x..." But that fact is what it is. I am Irish. Just as I am carbon-based, and air-breathing. This doesn't change according to my behaviour.

This doesn't make it any less annoying to hear somebody try and tell me how I'm supposed to feel or how I'm supposed to act.

If you speak Irish, that's a fine and admirable thing. If you consider it part of how you define yourself, that's cool. But I can't say the same for myself, and I resent the consistent implications that I should.

asdasd

Essentially, you're saying that your answer to my original question is "yes"!

Yes, you are less Irish than someone who knows Irish. In other news you are less Welsh than a Welsh speaker, less Spanish than a fluent Spanish speaker etc.

And your thought experiment still fails, as I never learned Irish. Sitting in a classroom is not the same as learning. Would that it were!

maybe I should have said was thought Irish. Clearly you are brilliant at any number of other languages, and a polyglot of international knowledge.

Just Irish eludes you, any idea why not?

One point I want to make here is that - like myself, a not very good Irish speaker - there are plenty of people in Ireland better at English, needs must. These people are not hostile to the language, though.

The question is why so much hostility to the language? So much so that it becomes impossible to learn.

asdasd

.

If you speak Irish, that's a fine and admirable thing. If you consider it part of how you define yourself, that's cool. But I can't say the same for myself, and I resent the consistent implications that I should.

Iam saying that nationalism is - as all good socilogical teachers point out - a construct.

That means I accpet the point of an accident of birth, but I dont cede your Irishness. That has to be earned culturally, as it does everywhere else. Nor do I think your anti-nationalism to be what you claim. You are not writing in esperanto, and language use is in itself a tribalist act.

Ajos

asdasd wrote: »

Yes, you are less Irish than someone who knows Irish. In other news you are less Welsh than a Welsh speaker, less Spanish than a fluent Spanish speaker etc.

Right. Except, I'm not. You are just wrong!

asdasd wrote: »

maybe I should have said was thought Irish. Clearly you are brilliant at any number of other languages, and a polyglot of international knowledge.

Just Irish eludes you, any idea why not?

I guess you mean "was taught"? And "why" rather than "why not"? I'm not entirely sure what argument you're making here, or what reaction you're trying to elicit. There's a lot of things I don't know, and Irish is one of them, if that's any help to you.

asdasd wrote: »

One point I want to make here is that - like myself, a not very good Irish speaker - there are plenty of people in Ireland better at English, needs must. These people are not hostile to the language, though.

The question is why so much hostility to the language? So much so that it becomes impossible to learn.

I'm mystified that you think I am hostile to the language. I'm not - merely indifferent. My hostility is reserved entirely for people who believe that their own ability or desire to speak Irish in some way entitles them to judge the Irishness of others. Which it doesn't.

asdasd wrote: »

Iam saying that nationalism is - as all good socilogical teachers point out - a construct.

That means I accpet the point of an accident of birth, but I dont cede your Irishness. That has to be earned culturally, as it does everywhere else. Nor do I think your anti-nationalism to be what you claim. You are not writing in esperanto, and language use is in itself a tribalist act.

No, it does not have to be "earned". That is absurd. What do you mean "everywhere else"? Where in the world do people born in a country to parents who are native to that country have to pass some kind of cultural test before they are accepted as citizens? And the idea that speaking the language of your parents - your literal "mother tongue" - is a political act is ridiculous.

Ajos

Stollaire wrote: »

Interesting. No Irish speaker has questioned anyone's "Irishness".
In fact the only reference on this trend to "Irishness" by an Irish Speaker is dlofnep and he/she said "Look, speaking or understanding Gaeilge doesn't make someone more or less Irish"

Your post above is a prime example of what a psychologist would call psychological projection or a projection bias.
Its you who feels your Irishness is being questioned by you lack of Irish. Nobody else.

I would hope that the last page or so of this thread has dispelled the notion that I am in any way "projecting" this attitude!

Hagar

There's some bitter uniformed sad fukkers out there or as we say in Irish "Look, gobshytes".

jill_valentine

Precious flower wrote: »

I was really disappointed when I looked at the T.V guide and looked at the programs on TG4. I really felt that there were barely any Irish programs for young people. The majority of the programs were for older people. How can they encourage the younger generation to become more interested in our native language when it has no Irish programs suitable for them?

Have to say, I think TG4 have notably outclassed RTE on that front. Their dubbing of South Park was genius, and they're the only Irish channel I know with any form regarding music programming.

Paisean Faisean always gets a laugh out of me, a feat not managed by RTE this side of the 1990's, and - although not geared towards young people - their documentaries are consistently excellent.

An Fear Aniar

Yep TG4 rocks. A much better way to reach people than forcing people to learn it in school and just alienating most of them.


.

soccymonster

jill_valentine wrote: »

Have to say, I think TG4 have notably outclassed RTE on that front. Their dubbing of South Park was genius, and they're the only Irish channel I know with any form regarding music programming.

Paisean Faisean always gets a laugh out of me, a feat not managed by RTE this side of the 1990's, and - although not geared towards young people - their documentaries are consistently excellent.

paisean faisean is hilarious. Watch it all the time. The guys on it are so weird. :P

jill_valentine

Always feel very guilty for giggling. Poor lads are trying their best, God love them, but Jaysus, I've nearly laughed myself sick...

wasper

karlog wrote: »

In my opinion it would be a disaster.

English being the most widely spoken language in the world it's lucky we have it as our first language agree?:D

Massive starvation across Ireland.

soccymonster

jill_valentine wrote: »

Always feel very guilty for giggling. Poor lads are trying their best, God love them, but Jaysus, I've nearly laughed myself sick...

and then when the young girl meets the 3 lads at the end of the show, i can just think what is going through her mind.
Brilliant stuff altogether :P

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

asdasd wrote: »

Yes, you are less Irish than someone who knows Irish. In other news you are less Welsh than a Welsh speaker, less Spanish than a fluent Spanish speaker etc.

Oh, sweet zombie Jesus....

Am I more Irish because I suport the Irish football team thansomeone who has no interest in football then...? Who he eff made you judge of the criteria of being Irish?

maybe I should have said was thought Irish.

pity you weren't taught English...

The question is why so much hostility to the language? So much so that it becomes impossible to learn.

Not impossible, just undesireable. The problem is that Gaelgori (sp) need to realise that they are not any more Irish because they are better with one aspect of the cultrue tan everyone else. And being more Irish than someone doesn't make you a more intelligent or better person.

asdasd wrote: »

Iam saying that nationalism is - as all good socilogical teachers point out - a construct.

That means I accpet the point of an accident of birth, but I dont cede your Irishness. That has to be earned culturally, as it does everywhere else. Nor do I think your anti-nationalism to be what you claim. You are not writing in esperanto, and language use is in itself a tribalist act.

It doesn't need to be earned or proven at all. You are born in Ireland, that means you are Irish. No conditions, no exams, no prerequisies, nothing. You are just as Irish as the guy next guy born on the island.

We are all equal, but some are more equal that others, eh Snowball?

Whiskey Devil

I grew up with Irish and I still speak it when I'm with friends or family from back home, but I do think that being a predominantly English speaking country has been hugely benificial to Ireland. It's shameful that the Department of Education has to stuck to it's tired and failing curriculum for so long that the majority of kids leave school without being able to have a basic conversation.

getz

Whiskey Devil wrote: »

I grew up with Irish and I still speak it when I'm with friends or family from back home, but I do think that being a predominantly English speaking country has been hugely benificial to Ireland. It's shameful that the Department of Education has to stuck to it's tired and failing curriculum for so long that the majority of kids leave school without being able to have a basic conversation.

is irish a changing language ?what i mean is that my wife is a native spanish speaker and when talking to her spanish friends they will suddenly say a line or word in english, i am told in the irish language there in not a word for no or yes, so i would think do irish speakers use the english words?i know it has been said that within the next 200 years most world languages will either be talking a spanish /french/ german ect,version of english or their language will be left as a culture curiosity,what do the irish speaking boardies think ?

soccymonster

soccymonster wrote: »

An bhfuil tu ag magadh faoi? An bhfuil tu i ndairire?
Thats the most complicated sentences i can say. :P

Id love to be able to talk fluent irish. Maybe its just me but I love going to London on the tube messing with my sister talking random irish. People look bewildered. I feel 'cool'. Haha

They're probably thinking "another load of bleedin' forigners", in some parts of London (proper) English is rarely heard!

getz

Deleted User wrote: »

They're probably thinking "another load of bleedin' forigners", in some parts of London (proper) English is rarely heard!

thats true in some parts of london/bradford/ rochdale/oldham , you dont hear english at all , in fact you hear more english in dublin and cork than some of the cities in the uk .

As to the original question, I'd be happy with a bi-Lingual country(like Wales).

CelticSpirit

I don't think anyone has the right to judge another Irish man or woman based on the language they speak. You could have someone who speaks English and is willing to die for his country and somebody who speaks Irish and would sooner sell his country out than die for it. Irishness is the collective feeling of belonging to the people of Ireland.

Until the people of Ireland collectively speak Irish again it does not define us. However our consciousness as a nation does have roots in the language. This is why we shape the language in our own style.

I come from Dublin and I learned to speak the language, mainly for work (civil service). I have to say that it does make me sad that this is something I cannot share with all of my country men and country women because to me it is inherently Irish to be able to speak Irish with your countrymen.

Whiskey Devil

Deleted User wrote: »

As to the original question, I'd be happy with a bi-Lingual country(like Wales).

The Welsh are doing slightly better than us, but they are FAR from bi-lingual. About 20% of the population can speak Welsh.

Wibbs

asdasd wrote: »

Yes, you are less Irish than someone who knows Irish. In other news you are less Welsh than a Welsh speaker, less Spanish than a fluent Spanish speaker etc.

Utter bollox. Every Spaniard speaks Spanish. Oh hang on, except they don't. Castillian(Spanish) is the most widespread, yes, but Catalan is another one. Then you have Galician up in the north west which is more like Portuguese and then of course you have Basque. Three major languages, all Spaniards(with a few nationalist types in each region).

Theres been a lot of talk about French types not speaking French etc and that's all fine and dandy but it has little relevance to Ireland for one simple reason. The majority of people in this nation cannot speak fluent Irish. The majority of people in this nation do not have Irish as a first language. The majority of this nation in the generations since the foundation of this state and the mechanisms by that same state to foster the language have not taken it up and have still left us with this language as a minority language. The vast majority of French people speak French. The vast majority of French people have French as their first language. The French language doesn't need propping up by successive governments(and the French can be very twitchy about the language). Compare and contrast. Its a daft comparison.

A better thought experiment would be to imagine France as a country where the majority speak French, yet Breton is considered the "real" "native" and official language of France and you're only a "real" French man or woman if you can speak it. You need it for many careers, millions of Euro are ploughed into it's promotion. It is compulsory in schools. You get preferential treatment in exams if you sit them in Breton. Breton not French is the official language of France as far as the EU is concerned. You have one TV station propped up by taxpayers money that broadcasts in Breton(with French subtitles). You have areas where only Breton speakers can build new homes, where long recognised placenames are Bretonisised. Every government document is written in both Breton and French. The list is long, yet at the end of the day the majority of French people end up speaking French. Which language would one be forced to accept is the real language of the culture that is France?

It is not a case whether one language is better or worse than another. Each language has it's good and bad points, but in the end of the day it is down to communication. That's it.

The question is why so much hostility to the language? So much so that it becomes impossible to learn.

Honestly? From my point of view and a view I've heard repeated a lot? It's not the language so much as many and I do mean many who push it. The usual tossery of "you're not Irish enough" galls for a start. I would suspect a fair amount who pledge support for the language feel somewhat guilted into it because of these attitudes. Of course if they genuinely supported the language they would bloody well learn it. And before anyone pipes in with the usual "they don't have the opportunity", that's utter bollox too. There are Irish language courses all over the place. All of us went through the school system were exposed to it and apparently taught it. It is advantageous and even required for many public careers here, the law, the civil service, the armed forces, the police. Even then it is still the minority language of this nation. Lip service and the wrong kind.

It is also the sense of exclusion that many Irish speakers exhibit. I have many times been around Irish speakers(all urban for the most part) who make a point of speaking in a language they know some of their guests can't understand. That is intolerably rude and very common. The one truly native Irish speaker(he really only picked up english when he started school) I know has commented on this tendency more than once and it písses him off. To the degree that he will refuse to answer them in Irish and instead replies in English. He personally feels this is a major issue when it comes to the promotion of the language. In contrast when I have been with his family, they rarely do that, until they saw I was cool with it and they're more comfortable in the language anyway. If more were like them...

I also think many Irish promoters are more concerned that the other language is English as much as anything.


The proof of the pudding is in the eating. People can crow all day about it as part of their heritage or whatever, but until the majority actually start trying to speak it and actually speaking it and leave their issues at the door(and same goes for anti Irish speakers), it will always be a hobby, an intellectual exercise or a stick to beat non speakers with. It will be more like a working museum piece trotted out on high days and holy days as a curiosity. That's the pity.

getz

the nice thing i like about the irish speakers in ireland when you get lost ,like i did near galway last year,trying to find clifton i went into a pub to ask the way and have a drink,a group of the lads were talking in irish,they came over to tell me the way to my cottage and wish me a good holliday,this isent the kind of thing that happens with northern welsh speakers,

Rodgeb

karlog wrote: »

In my opinion it would be a disaster.

English being the most widely spoken language in the world it's lucky we have it as our first language agree?:D

We would have a situation like in Holland where most people are bilingual.

Most TV programmes, films etc would still be in English so kids would learn to speak English fluently at a very young age even if Irish was the first language spoken in daily life.

English would also be the language of business as it is in much Europe. I work for a large multinational German company. It is a requirement for employment in any of its offices around the world to be fluent in English.

Hardly a disaster.

An Fear Aniar

Yeah, English would be the language of work and Irish would be the language of home and family and the pub.

.

Whiskey Devil

Whiskey Devil wrote: »

The Welsh are doing slightly better than us, but they are FAR from bi-lingual. About 20% of the population can speak Welsh.

Fair point, but in "welsh Wales" they are bi-lingual and can (and do) switch languages at the drop of a hat.

An Fear Aniar

An Fear Aniar wrote: »

Yeah, English would be the language of work and Irish would be the language of home and family and the pub.

.

Essentially, that's how staff of some multi-national companies in places like Holland, India and other countries without an "international" language communicate now.

Kev_ps3

karlog wrote: »

In my opinion it would be a disaster.

English being the most widely spoken language in the world it's lucky we have it as our first language agree?:D

Why exactly? Nearly every country has its own language, so for some reason we would fail as a county if we had ours?
IMO we should discard the language of the invader and learn our native language, those that dont like it can go back to England where their ancestors came from.

Kev_ps3

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

IMO we should discard the language of the invader and learn our native language, those that dont like it can go back to England where their ancestors came from.

Most English (only) speakers are 100% Irish descent and have several generations of English speaking ancestors.

In the 19th century many switched to English as Irish was considered "backward" and prevented people from gaining an education or any chance of a decent job or emigration. That mindset still prevails in many.

Whiskey Devil

Deleted User wrote: »

Fair point, but in "welsh Wales" they are bi-lingual and can (and do) switch languages at the drop of a hat.

I'm not sure I'm with you. If you go into any of the Gaeltacht areas in this country people can (and do) the same. The majority of people I grew up with still speak Irish amongst themselves (I'm 24). The Welsh do use the language more, whereas a lot of Irish people have Gaeilge, but choose not to speak it unless they have to.


The only people who have a problem with the language are those who can't speak it. I've yet to meet a fluent person with that attitude. :rolleyes:

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Why exactly? Nearly every country has its own language, so for some reason we would fail as a county if we had ours?
IMO we should discard the language of the invader and learn our native language, those that dont like it can go back to England where their ancestors came from.

Worst post yet, even by this thread's standards.

"Discard the language of the invader"? Don't you mean "Discard the language that everyone in Europe uses for day-today business on an international level, thereby rendering us economically redundant"?

Whiskey Devil

Deleted User wrote: »

Most English (only) speakers are 100% Irish descent and have several generations of English speaking ancestors.

In the 19th century many switched to English as Irish was considered "backward" and prevented people from gaining an education or any chance of a decent job or emigration. That mindset still prevails in many.

Very true. The language was basically associated with Nationalism and peasantry.

TG4 has been an unbelievable success - they have modernised the language. People like Hector, Neelo, Dáithí Ó Sé, Bláthnaid Ní Chofaigh, the Seoige Sisters and more recently, Des Bishop and John Spillane (regardless of what you think of some of them) have done great things for the language. TG4's programming outdoes RTE more often than not. People now speak Irish with pride.

jill_valentine

I'd trade a million Bláthnaid Ní Chofaighs to get Dara O'Briain back.

Whiskey Devil

jill_valentine wrote: »

I'd trade a million Bláthnaid Ní Chofaighs to get Dara O'Briain back.

She's bad, but that bloke is a completely unfunny bellend. His only redeeming feature is that he has Irish. Worst comedian ever.

asdasd

Worst comedian ever.

He's great, and acknowledged as such in the UK.

Ponster

asdasd wrote: »

He's great, and acknowledged as such in the UK.

Indeed. Seen him twice doing stand-up and is a very funny, witty and fast guy.

Thank god Mock the Week is back !

Whiskey Devil

asdasd wrote: »

He's great, and acknowledged as such in the UK.

He must be funny, then.. :rolleyes:

When are we over going to win the fight against bacteria? I truly can't believe that man can get away with it. Cringeworthy. :pac:

He's the equivalent of Ray D'arcy standing on a stage trying to be 'funny'. The vast majority of comedians out there are shít. If you have the neck to stand up there, some people will laugh because they're told you're funny.


Annoying fúcker.

asdasd

The vast majority of comedians out there are shít. If you have the neck to stand up there, some people will laugh because they're told you're funny.

Feel free to try and be funnier than Dara onstage. It is easy, and free to try your hand at Open Mic events. Thats how he started.

Post your video on YouTube and we can judge it here.

Whiskey Devil

Ok thanks, I'll get to work on that. I really hope you think I'm funny.


:rolleyes:

Dionysus

asdasd wrote: »

He's great, and acknowledged as such in the UK.

What does it matter if he is "acknowledged as such in the UK"? I can think of many supposedly 'great' things 'acknowledged as such in the UK' throughout the centuries that were assuredly not 'great' in the view of the average Irish person.


Dara is very very funny, in my opinion. That's all I need to enjoy him.

Hasschu

Foreign languages are for people who want to get on with life. Irish is for people who cannot let go of the past. I am totally neutral on the subject and neither support or denigrate whatever position one wants to take. I just wish that Irish could rest in peace like Latin to be studied by historians and linguists who would actually get some benefit and enjoyment from it.

Kev_ps3

Hasschu wrote: »

Foreign languages are for people who want to get on with life. Irish is for people who cannot let go of the past. I am totally neutral on the subject and neither support or denigrate whatever position one wants to take. I just wish that Irish could rest in peace like Latin to be studied by historians and linguists who would actually get some benefit and enjoyment from it.

What a load on nonsence. You come across as neutral as the bigot Ian Paisley on the subject tbh.
There is no reason why we cant learn two languages. One for the natives and one for 'people who want to get on with life':rolleyes:

jill_valentine

Dionysus wrote: »

What does it matter if he is "acknowledged as such in the UK"? I can think of many supposedly 'great' things 'acknowledged as such in the UK' throughout the centuries that were assuredly not 'great' in the view of the average Irish person.


Dara is very very funny, in my opinion. That's all I need to enjoy him.

Given the topic at hand, I think it might have been a poor choice of words, but I think what the poster meant is that O'Briain is perhaps more popular abroad than he is here

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

What a load on nonsence. You come across as neutral as the bigot Ian Paisley on the subject tbh.
There is no reason why we cant learn two languages. One for the natives and one for 'people who want to get on with life':rolleyes:

Aren't you the one who said, and I quote, "discard the language of the invader"?

asdasd

What does it matter if he is "acknowledged as such in the UK"?

It matters because were he only famous here, we could put it down to parochialism. He did a star turn in Cananda some time ago, as well. It also matters because the UK has a very very competitive stand up/ Comedic environment at the moment, and there is a hell of a lot of competition out there , most of it very good. So if he holds his own there, he is clearly talented.


This is way off topic, but I really dont get the knocking of a decent Irish sucess story.

3hn2givr7mx1sc

It would be class. Could ya imagine French or Spanish or German children trying ta learn Irish?:D

Kev_ps3

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Aren't you the one who said, and I quote, "discard the language of the invader"?

Eventually;)

dlofnep

Hasschu wrote: »

Irish is for people who cannot let go of the past.

Or it might be just for people who want to speak Irish?