The Sub 3 Support Thread

Alberto17

AuldManKing wrote: »

I'm very interested to see how this marathon training cycle ends up.

Previously I would have done about 6-7 20+ mile runs and some solid sessions (14-15m midweek).

This cycle with a new coach is an eye opener - I've just 1x20m done and 1 more to come - Both of those 20m runs will be with a lot of it at 'Steady Effort' e.g. last sunday was 7 Steady / 2E/ 6Steady/2E / 4 Steady - so 17 miles at 7-7.10/mile pace.

Weekly mileage is about 70 miles - so the volume is high enough and spread out over the week. I add on a couple of miles to the midweek sessions just to bring them up past 10m in an effort to make it look like I'm marathon training .

I don't have that permanent fatigued state that I was in for previous marathon cycles and I actually quizzed my coach recently about this

But I'm feeling very confident due to the recent HM I done (a comfortable 1.24) and the good session last weekend on the 2nd half of the DCM route.

Hi there, what does your week look like as a matter of interest? Curious to see how you are hitting that 70mpw.

BlacknWhite86

Has anyone got experience running with the 3hr pacers in Dublin before, or do you know how they have tended to approach it?
As in the first half of the course is regarded as tougher so would they tend to go through half over 1.30 and up the pace in a little in the second half then...

Looking forward to the day now!

RayCun

BlacknWhite86 wrote: »

Has anyone got experience running with the 3hr pacers in Dublin before, or do you know how they have tended to approach it?
As in the first half of the course is regarded as tougher so would they tend to go through half over 1.30 and up the pace in a little in the second half then...

they go for even splits between first half and second half

edited to add -
this is at least partly because anything else would be too complicated to explain to all the people following them, and would just result in a lot of complaints.

But if you are planning to follow the pacers, you can take this into account yourself, and aim to be a bit behind them at the end of the first half, and close the gap in the second

AuldManKing

Alberto17 wrote: »

Hi there, what does your week look like as a matter of interest? Curious to see how you are hitting that 70mpw.

No Problem - its quite a structured week actually.
Strava link below - its 2 sessions mostly - 1 if a race week.
7m is the lowest daily mileage in the cycle (apart from a race week shakeout)

Alberto17

AuldManKing wrote: »

No Problem - its quite a structured week actually.
Strava link below - its 2 sessions mostly - 1 if a race week.
7m is the lowest daily mileage in the cycle (apart from a race week shakeout)

Thanks.
3 double digit runs per week, that will stand to you.
Many speed sessions at all – tempo/track?

squinn2912

RayCun wrote: »

Sub 3 pace is about 4:14/km, so you seem well set, with a decent block of training behind you. I would aim to run the first half a little slower, 1:30 to 1:31, and pick it up in the second half. That would mean letting the 3 hour pacers move away from you a bit in the first half, especially on the uphills, but reeling them in on the second half.

Excellent advice and my regret during some of my unsuccessful attempts (failed seems inappropriate). On your question you’ve done better thajjn me in training and 10k when I’ve got sub3s so I say blow the doors off. Control your race and save the aggression for mile 16 on would be my advice

AuldManKing

Alberto17 wrote: »

Thanks.
3 double digit runs per week, that will stand to you.
Many speed sessions at all – tempo/track?

Plenty of sessions k reps / 1200's / tempos / short hills / HMP / - a very multi paced approach.

It all in here:

Alberto17

AuldManKing wrote: »

Plenty of sessions k reps / 1200's / tempos / short hills / HMP / - a very multi paced approach.

It all in here:

Cheers

thomas anderson.

For anyone who may have missed this nugget :

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I think we have to sub-categorize two types of long run:
The long easy run - where the goal is primarily endurance, but for some, may have sub-goals like adaptation, running long on tired feet, etc.
The long run with 'stuff' - Focus is speed endurance, dialing in race pace, simulation, etc.

In my view, the long easy run is an important part of adaptation, particularly when you are new to marathoning and long runs are a pretty new component of your training. But eventually they have a diminishing return and ultimately as you go through marathon cycles, continuing to do them will result in some level of junk miles. The good news is that it's not hard to adapt them so that they are once again providing benefit. Examples would be:
Progression run: Start easy, gradually increase the pace, finish at a faster pace (perhaps up to half marathon pace, if you've paced it well)
Steady long run: MP + 10%, increase to MP + 5%
Long run finishing with strides with a focus on form
Long run with no water/nutrition

Long run with stuff: Like I said, goal is speed-endurance (and some of the above examples would be a nod towards speed-endurance - like the Canova long steady run). Other common examples (usually you progress to a point where you can complete these sessions):
5 + 4 + 3 + 2 + 1 @MP (Tergat @Boards)
4 x 3 Miles @MP with 800 steady (Magness)
18 miles with last 12 @MP (P&D)
3 x 5 miles with 800 steady (Daniels?)
15 miles @MP (Daniels - handle with care!)

Essentially, when you progress to a point in your plan, where you are no longer getting any significant benefit from increasing the distance, or naturally increasing the pace, you've got to question what the value is. Like every run, the long run should have a purpose and you should know what the purpose is, before you head out.

So for example, I've just started a 21 week marathon plan for Rotterdam, based on Magness marathon template (for high mileage runners (100mpw+). Early long runs (base building period) start at 14 miles and progress over 5-6 weeks to around 20 miles. For these long runs, I'll be happy enough to 'go with the pace' while I adapt to doing long runs again, but after that I'll try to have a specific plan for each long run. Some weeks won't have a long run, in favour of doing a hard session. Well, that's the philosophy anyway. I don't always stick to the plan, and that's usually where the injuries start for me.

We all feel good about ourselves after doing a long run (my family are sick of hearing about my long runs!), but apart form the feel-good factor, we have to be able to identify a specific benefit. Maybe if you haven't followed a marathon plan for a long time, the benefit is simply to build up endurance again and that's perfectly ok - because it has a specific goal. Hell, maybe like me, you enjoy running in nature, running with pals or just want to get your head right and those reasons are ok too, just don't expect the same level of benefit as having a long run focused on achieving a specific goal.

This got me a sub 3

squinn2912

I've always just got time on my feet for the long runs. This programme I'll have done 4 in a row with MP (or maybe faster) finishes - tomorrow it's 5 miles at the end and I dread it but I'll do my best. It'll be interesting to see how that works out on the big day.
Saw a question about pacers. I got told off a bit before for mouthing about pacers and in fairness I was a bit out of line. They're there to be used to your advantage. I've always bemoaned the fact that none seem to run slower than target pace with a view to finishing stronger as I think that suits me better - but I know that and can't expect them to. I've done my best by keeping them in sight and then attacking late on, overtaking about mile 23 and then clinging on. This year I'm going to ask the coach about strategy and target time but I'll leave it until closer to the race.

kerrylad1

I have been reading all week,but said I will wait till after today's m.p long run to update.Usually do this 21 days out but had to push it forward,or wait until next Wednesday,which I think is too near the marathon.I picked a hilly route of 4 mile loops.3 slow warm up 8:44,then 16 at MP,which came in at 6:40 ave,1 cool down at 8:05.I have averaged 65/70 miles per week.Was hoping for more,but sh*t happens.Best of luck to everyone doing the last tough session this weekend.Great reading through everyone's different approaches.

jfh

kerrylad1 wrote: »

I have been reading all week,but said I will wait till after today's m.p long run to update.Usually do this 21 days out but had to push it forward,or wait until next Wednesday,which I think is too near the marathon.I picked a hilly route of 4 mile loops.3 slow warm up 8:44,then 16 at MP,which came in at 6:40 ave,1 cool down at 8:05.I have averaged 65/70 miles per week.Was hoping for more,but sh*t happens.Best of luck to everyone doing the last tough session this weekend.Great reading through everyone's different approaches.

16 miles @ 6:40 on a hilly route on your own is impressive. Sub 2:54 target?

squinn2912

I’ll second that. Super running! I’m doing 7:45s tops tomorrow before the last 5 at pace

kerrylad1

jfh wrote: »

16 miles @ 6:40 on a hilly route on your own is impressive. Sub 2:54 target?

No jfh,I will be over the moon with 2:56:59.Anything lower than that would be a bonus.The last time I did Dublin in 2016,got the sub 3 bye a few seconds.Hit the wall hard last few miles.Rotten feeling.What is your target?

kerrylad1

squinn2912 wrote: »

I’ll second that. Super running! I’m doing 7:45s tops tomorrow before the last 5 at pace

Did you do any recent 10K or half?

squinn2912

kerrylad1 wrote: »

squinn2912 wrote: »

I’ll second that. Super running! I’m doing 7:45s tops tomorrow before the last 5 at pace

Did you do any recent 10K or half?

Only race during the programme was the rock n roll. 1:23 a minute off pb more than happy with it. You?

kerrylad1

squinn2912 wrote: »

Only race during the programme was the rock n roll. 1:23 a minute off pb more than happy with it. You?

Great stuff.No nothing.Really wanted to do st Michael's 10K,here in Limerick this Sunday,but my wife is on nights till middle of next week.So stuck on the treadmill until then,looking at a baby monitor,losing the will to live.

squinn2912

Haha don’t say that lad it’s a great day any day you’re fit to do it! What’s the aim in Dublin?

kerrylad1

squinn2912 wrote: »

Haha don’t say that lad it’s a great day any day you’re fit to do it! What’s the aim in Dublin?

2:56:59.And you?

squinn2912

kerrylad1 wrote: »

squinn2912 wrote: »

Haha don’t say that lad it’s a great day any day you’re fit to do it! What’s the aim in Dublin?

2:56:59.And you?

Anything like that would be brilliant too. I’m not too sure. I’ve done so many more miles this time around I’d like to see some reward I suppose. Have you got a strategy In mind?

kerrylad1

squinn2912 wrote: »

Anything like that would be brilliant too. I’m not too sure. I’ve done so many more miles this time around I’d like to see some reward I suppose. Have you got a strategy In mind?

Plan is to go through halfway behind schedule,maybe even with the sub 3 pacers,and (IF) I can,start slowly bring down the pace to 6:38/40.That might do it.I always nearly run 26.5 in Dublin,so that has to be factored in aswell.Sure as we all know in here,this could easily turn into a 3:20 death march.

squinn2912

Quite similar to how I’m thinking

kerrylad1

squinn2912 wrote: »

Quite similar to how I’m thinking

If we can stay injury free,between now and the big day.we mite work together?I will pm you as the day approaches and sort something out.

squinn2912

Might not be a bad plan pal pm me surely!

22 miler done and dusted with final 5 at 6:30 pace. Tongue was out but did it. 7:24 average. Pleased with that

kerrylad1

squinn2912 wrote: »

Might not be a bad plan pal pm me surely!

22 miler done and dusted with final 5 at 6:30 pace. Tongue was out but did it. 7:24 average. Pleased with that

Great going.Let the taper maddness begin.

squinn2912

kerrylad1 wrote: »

squinn2912 wrote: »

Might not be a bad plan pal pm me surely!

22 miler done and dusted with final 5 at 6:30 pace. Tongue was out but did it. 7:24 average. Pleased with that

Great going.Let the taper maddness begin.

Haha I know! Still plenty of training to do but the heaviest stuff is done thank God. Be interesting to see what people are doing

kerrylad1

squinn2912 wrote: »

Haha I know! Still plenty of training to do but the heaviest stuff is done thank God. Be interesting to see what people are doing

I will do 15miles on treadmill tomorrow.20 miles around 7:45 pace,outside Thursday.5K timetrial Tuesday week.(Hoping for a low 18,or 17:50,s.)7 days out its 13miles around 7:45 pace again.4 days out then,it is 7 miles with 3 at MP.Every other run then,will be around 10/11 miles easy.What sort of taper is everyone else in this tread doing?

squinn2912

HAHa I can just about work that out boy! Em I’m cutting long run to 16 next week then 12. The tues/thurs sessions are both tempos 8, 6 with wu/cd and then the week after it’s very little

jfh

kerrylad1 wrote: »

No jfh,I will be over the moon with 2:56:59.Anything lower than that would be a bonus.The last time I did Dublin in 2016,got the sub 3 bye a few seconds.Hit the wall hard last few miles.Rotten feeling.What is your target?

Hoping for 2:55, according to mcmillan with my current race times, I'm bang on but no room for error.
The last marathon will stand to you

kerrylad1

jfh wrote: »

Hoping for 2:55, according to mcmillan with my current race times, I'm bang on but no room for error.
The last marathon will stand to you

Here's hoping I stagger over the line a minute or so behind you.Best of luck.