The Sub 3 Support Thread

ecoli

Gringo78 wrote: »

yet put some thought and structure into what goes before the marathon training block and you can then concentrate exclusively on the aerobic stuff during the marathon training knowing you have developed the anaerobic stuff beforehand as much as you could.

This is a point i think alot of people miss. Regardless of what training you do in an 18 week plan (or which ever one you choose) you are not going to be "at your best". Sure you may run a PB but there is still room for improvement which is why people chip away at there times. Consistency is key. Lydiard touches on this in his philosophies. He believes that the benefits you see from increase in mileage alone can be seen as far as 3 years down the line(not taking into account intervals, tempos, etc.) The idea is to train year round regardless what type of training the mileage will stand to you

donothoponpop

Reminder for anyone who may have missed this- ecoli will be starting a mentored sub3 training schedule for the Dublin marathon. Schedule starts next week, is 18 weeks long, with additional input from tergat, anyone interested can put their name down here.

Mick Rice

Folks - An idea just occurred to me. I've been lucky enought to have paced sub-three at Limerick and Cork this year and have enjoyed the experience of pacing immensely. Both races went reasonably well. I don't know how many of the people on this thread are aiming for the Longford Marathon, but if there were a few here that wanted to give it a go I'd be willing to pace a special Boards group to 3:00 hours. Longford is on the 29th of August.

Once we had a few interested it'd be worth a go. Have done Longford a few times and it's perhaps the fastest marathon in the country and a great race generally.

Any takers ?

Mick.

hunnymonster

Ok before I get too old I need to give some serious consideration to a sub 3 attempt. It's currently the only distance where Zuppylurk is faster than me, not that this is a major motivation or anything! A sports physiologist mate has told me that the biggest barrier to me hitting it is weight (which I'm working on slowly - 70 mile days in may helped!!!) 2011 is going to be my year for marathons rather than long stuff so it makes sense to give at least one of them my all. Seville is an option (UTMB is my last 2010 commitment so should be enough time)? Any suggestions are welcome.

bonosmate

hi, so i've ran 3.17 for my first marathon in Paris; only half marathon i've done is 1.31.......Just wondering how far im i from sub 3 hrs......training wise ect?

--amadeus--

hunnymonster wrote: »

Ok before I get too old I need to give some serious consideration to a sub 3 attempt. It's currently the only distance where Zuppylurk is faster than me, not that this is a major motivation or anything! A sports physiologist mate has told me that the biggest barrier to me hitting it is weight (which I'm working on slowly - 70 mile days in may helped!!!) 2011 is going to be my year for marathons rather than long stuff so it makes sense to give at least one of them my all. Seville is an option (UTMB is my last 2010 commitment so should be enough time)? Any suggestions are welcome.

Ahhh yes, I remember this conversation, early in the morning in the middle of nowhere in Cork... "You can run long forever but you can only run fast for a while" I think I said. It must be the only time over the entire event you actually listened to me?!

Anyhoo, my vote would be Rotterdam in April. Your background suggests the speed is there but it's buried under thousands of miles of endurance training. By waiting until April you can start a marathon specific 12 week program in Jan / Feb and use the time between now and then to drive up your speed by focussing on shorter races, halves and maybe even 10ks. Your training for whatever other events pre Xmas will keep your endurance base high but I would guess your comfortable cruising pace now is probably a minute or two slower than your PMP. By concentrating on pace over the autumn and winter you can bring that down so that the intervals in the marathon program are a step down in intensity (from the 10k training) rather than a step up.

And Rotterdam is a great race, flat, fast and usually with ideal weather. You'll get into Pen A which is un-crowded and congestion free at the start and what better way to spend your wedding anniversary?

theboyblunder

Mick Rice wrote: »

Folks - An idea just occurred to me. I've been lucky enought to have paced sub-three at Limerick and Cork this year and have enjoyed the experience of pacing immensely. Both races went reasonably well. I don't know how many of the people on this thread are aiming for the Longford Marathon, but if there were a few here that wanted to give it a go I'd be willing to pace a special Boards group to 3:00 hours. Longford is on the 29th of August.

Once we had a few interested it'd be worth a go. Have done Longford a few times and it's perhaps the fastest marathon in the country and a great race generally.

Any takers ?

Mick.

Brilliant Idea Mick, Fair play to ya. The Cork lads were delighted with your performance. I have been training for sub-3 in longford but picked up an achilles injury last week. I still cant run (but its getting better) and have more or less given up (I did a 1.24 half in may - so I dont have much wiggle room to lose more that a couple of weeks) but if it recovers miraculously I would be on. Would be brilliant to have a pacer of your experience.

Krusty_Clown

bonosmate wrote: »

hi, so i've ran 3.17 for my first marathon in Paris; only half marathon i've done is 1.31.......Just wondering how far im i from sub 3 hrs......

Must resist the urge to say 18 minutes..... Must.....
The unfortunate reality (?) is that everyone is different, so 18 minutes for one runner might mean a year and two marathons (two steps), while for another, it might mean a 12 week program and a single marathon. Others may be unfortunate enough never to break the barrier (but that's just loser talk!).

I went from 3:25 -> 3:00 -> 2:55. Others have debut'ed with a sub-3 (go Tisnotover!). So the rather vague answer is: find yourself a good training program (or good coach), follow it (them), re-assess your target as you go along, and if you don't manage it, try again.

I didn't believe it was very achievable after my first marathon (3:25), but now I can't see what all my fuss was about. It definitely helps if you train all year round, rather than 'run a marathon' then drop the running for three months until the next marathon.

aero2k

hunnymonster wrote: »

Ok before I get too old I need to give some serious consideration to a sub 3 attempt. ...... Any suggestions are welcome.

Hi HM,

Not sure if you meant suggestions for choice of marathon or preparation, so here's my 2 cents on each:
Edinburgh (late May) is the only marathon other than Dublin that I've done. It's definitely a PB course if you get favourable weather. The last two years have been hot, but I believe they've had snow on at least one occasion. It's also very exposed, with about 18 miles at or near the seafront, so a windy day could be miserable.

On preparation, obviously I'm going to recommend the 2 sub-3 threads, and logs from the sub-3 gang - Krusty, tisnotover, Gringo78, Sosa, Mithril, Abhainn etc and those who went close - Misty Floyd, Amadeus, Peckham.
On the weight thing, I've dropped from about 79 to 67kg and that has made a big difference, however I've made no conscious effort to do that. Once I started to include the kind of (relatively) high intensity needed for a (relatively) fast marathon, the weight took care of itself. I've put on 1.5 kg since Edinburgh (4 weeks):)

misty floyd

bumpy bumpy

DCM 5 weeks to go. Who are the sub 3 hopefuls? I'm giving it a lash anyway.

Bump.

robinph

I was fully planning on being sensible and sticking with the 3:15 guys until I got bored of KC's motivational natter and leaving them behind. I've now done another 1:23 half, and it was easy, and my brother who's time I'm aiming to beat seems to be trying to talk me into going for the 3 now. He figures if I'm going to blow up then it really makes no difference if I do it at 20miles after running at 3:15 pace or at 20miles after running at 3 pace.

So now I'm all confused and not quite sure. Half tempted to have a better go at following the 3hr balloons.

theboyblunder

robinph wrote: »

I was fully planning on being sensible and sticking with the 3:15 guys until I got bored of KC's motivational natter and leaving them behind. I've now done another 1:23 half, and it was easy, and my brother who's time I'm aiming to beat seems to be trying to talk me into going for the 3 now. He figures if I'm going to blow up then it really makes no difference if I do it at 20miles after running at 3:15 pace or at 20miles after running at 3 pace.

So now I'm all confused and not quite sure. Half tempted to have a better go at following the 3hr balloons.

2 x 1:23 half marathons = a sub 3 attempt. I ran 3'10 last year off a 1:28 half (a time I was delighted with). I went for sub 3 this year off 1:24 and missed by a good way, but didnt handle my pacing right on a less than ideal day. No point in trundling along at 7'26/mile if you can hold 6'20 ish for 13 IMO. Good luck!

Krusty_Clown

robinph wrote: »

I was fully planning on being sensible and sticking with the 3:15 guys until I got bored of KC's motivational natter and leaving them behind. I've now done another 1:23 half, and it was easy, and my brother who's time I'm aiming to beat seems to be trying to talk me into going for the 3 now. He figures if I'm going to blow up then it really makes no difference if I do it at 20miles after running at 3:15 pace or at 20miles after running at 3 pace.

So now I'm all confused and not quite sure. Half tempted to have a better go at following the 3hr balloons.

If you're willing to accept the risks of blowing up (most aren't) then you should definitely go for it! If It helps, I can chase after you, dressed like this:

ThePiedPiper

Well everyone,
Just found the thread here today, good reading in it.

I ran 1.26 in the Dublin half marathon on Saturday. I'm looking to break 3 hours next month in Amsterdam which is a flat course. Did anyone else feel like Saturday was a tough course and the weather not ideal to fast running? I'm trying to convince myself that on a flat course with better weather, I could've done a 1.24.

robinph

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

If you're willing to accept the risks of blowing up (most aren't) then you should definitely go for it! If It helps, I can chase after you, dressed like this:

:eek:

Now I'm worried.

I am happy to accept the risks of blowing up. Other than blaming my rubbish training plan though, the brother has been doing a bit of research into my capacity for fuelling for the distance and seems to be concluding that if I'm going to fail, then it really doesn't make any difference as to what speed I was doing before it happens, as it will happen regardless if it is going to.

I know I would be finding the 3:15 pace slower than I know I can do, but would be happy to just plod around the distance if I knew that would then result in a safe finish. I would be more annoyed with doing 3:15 pace and blowing up and then making it in about the sub 3:30'ish times I've done before. But I'd be happier with doing 3hr pace and blowing up only to then come in at the same time anyway.

I'm happy to fail, I'm not happy to not have tried.

Peckham

RunForestRun wrote: »

Well everyone,
Just found the thread here today, good reading in it.

I ran 1.26 in the Dublin half marathon on Saturday. I'm looking to break 3 hours next month in Amsterdam which is a flat course. Did anyone else feel like Saturday was a tough course and the weather not ideal to fast running? I'm trying to convince myself that on a flat course with better weather, I could've done a 1.24.

Amsterdam could also have weather not ideal to fast running.....

You need to look at the context in which you ran the 1:26. If you were at the end of a few tough weeks of marathon training, then 1:24 could have happened if you were properly tapered for this race.

However, in order to evaluate your ability to do sub-3 in Amsterdam, you need to look at how your marathon training is going, not whether or not you could run a 1:24 half. A fast half is only an indicator of where you are, it certainly doesn't tell the full picture.....I ran a 1:24 half 2 months before DCM08 and missed out on sub-3.

ThePiedPiper

Peckham wrote: »

Amsterdam could also have weather not ideal to fast running.....

You need to look at the context in which you ran the 1:26. If you were at the end of a few tough weeks of marathon training, then 1:24 could have happened if you were properly tapered for this race.

However, in order to evaluate your ability to do sub-3 in Amsterdam, you need to look at how your marathon training is going, not whether or not you could run a 1:24 half. A fast half is only an indicator of where you are, it certainly doesn't tell the full picture.....I ran a 1:24 half 2 months before DCM08 and missed out on sub-3.

Cheers for the reply Peckham,

Yeah, I didn't taper for the half at all, just using it as a short week training, I only rested on Friday, so I certainly didn't feel too fresh coming into it. I'd say with a proper taper, 1.24 was probably do-able.

I've just been reading the half marathon thread, lots of people ran PBs so my theory on it being a slow course and difficult conditions is out the window!!!

Another two weeks hard training beckon before tapering.

Gringo78

RunForestRun wrote: »

Cheers for the reply Peckham,

Yeah, I didn't taper for the half at all, just using it as a short week training, I only rested on Friday, so I certainly didn't feel too fresh coming into it. I'd say with a proper taper, 1.24 was probably do-able.

I've just been reading the half marathon thread, lots of people ran PBs so my theory on it being a slow course and difficult conditions is out the window!!!

Another two weeks hard training beckon before tapering.

Whether a 1:26 half or a 1:24 half would be enough to say you've a chance of achieving sub 3 is a bit of a how long is a piece of string question. How you came by the 1:26 though probably would enable a reasonable guess of whether you can run sub 3.

Sub 3 pace is only 15sec/mile slower than 1:26 HM pace....therefore if you achieved the 1:26 by good HM training, lots of tempo work, developing an ability to tolerate a pace close to your LT pace (Stamina?), then actually running HM pace +15sec for a full marathon will be tough. Whereas if you were training away for the marathon, doing lots of endurance work, lots of PMP miles, well then your HM time is not going to really be the best it could be, so yeah, a 1:26 HM a few weeks before your marathon probably would suggest a sub 3 shot.

You see, McMillan works both ways.....in an ideal world it says if you can run <1:25 HM then you can run sub 3 if you put in proper marathon training. Conversely, it says if you can run sub 3 marathon you can run <1:25 if you train properly for the HM....so if you have NOT trained very specifically for the HM (and not tapered), you'd be more likely to run 1:26 wouldn't you?

So, if you

a) have been doing very marathon specific training
and
b) set your HM time having not trained specifically for HM (and also not tapered) then you are more likely to be able to sustain sub 3 pace.

Does that make sense?

Krusty_Clown

Gringo78 wrote: »

Does that make sense?

Perfect sense.

ThePiedPiper

Cheers Gringo, that does make perfect sense.

I'd fall into the latter category. I've been training specifically for the marathon only. Lots of long runs, and endurance over past couple of months and adding some speed work over the past two weeks only.

The last 3 weekends before the half, my long runs were 20, 20, and 18, with ten-mile runs (6.25 and 6.30 pace) on the Tuesday and Wednesday the week of the half marathon so I'd say I was a good way from being fresh.

So, I'm probably in with a shot at this stage. Hopefully, the next few weeks can turn that from a possibility to a probability!!! I've been here too many times already!! Need to get rid of that monkey!!

Gringo78

RunForestRun wrote: »

The last 3 weekends before the half, my long runs were 20, 20, and 18, with ten-mile runs (6.25 and 6.30 pace) on the Tuesday and Wednesday the week of the half marathon so I'd say I was a good way from being fresh.

By 6.25 & 6.30 I'm reading that as 6:25 & 6:30, correct?

Are you saying that you ran 10 miles at that pace on consecutive days? Was that a one off or is that something you regularly do? Why I am asking this is that I would consider those more stamina type runs than endurance (I would also say they would definitly have affected your HM time) and if you were doing those on a regular basis I would say you would have a strong ability to sustain HM pace but that wouldn't neccessarily transmit into holding MP for twice the amount of time.

However, I'd question the training plan you are following if you run effectively HM pace on consecutive days?? Thats not very marathon specific....

All that said, if you had dropped those runs on tuesday and wednesday you'd have easily ran 1:24, you have the long runs, I'm now doubting you have the marathon specificity...I'd be running midweek sessions of PMP miles from now on rather than HM pace and I'd say you're good for sub 3

seanynova

misty floyd wrote: »

bumpy bumpy

DCM 5 weeks to go. Who are the sub 3 hopefuls? I'm giving it a lash anyway.

Bump.

count me in as a hopeful for DCM '10! Amsterdam is out the window for another year....

although at this stage, ill be hopeful just to walk without a limp soon....hmmm.....

seanynova

robinph wrote: »

I'm happy to fail, I'm not happy to not have tried.

+1.....different stokes for different folks but if its in you to run faster, then why not run to the best of your ability....what is all the hard training for, if you not going to race hard!

you could always split the difference there will be plenty people to run with(you dont have to run with pacers) looking for times between 3:00 and 3:15....

misty floyd

robinph wrote: »

I'm happy to fail, I'm not happy to not have tried.

We never learn eh? I did 1:24:45 on Saturday but I'm going to try to hang on to the sub 3 pacer too. I'm a bit like yourself, a taliban runner, willing to blow up for the cause.

ThePiedPiper

Gringo78 wrote: »

By 6.25 & 6.30 I'm reading that as 6:25 & 6:30, correct?

Are you saying that you ran 10 miles at that pace on consecutive days? Was that a one off or is that something you regularly do? Why I am asking this is that I would consider those more stamina type runs than endurance (I would also say they would definitly have affected your HM time) and if you were doing those on a regular basis I would say you would have a strong ability to sustain HM pace but that wouldn't neccessarily transmit into holding MP for twice the amount of time.

However, I'd question the training plan you are following if you run effectively HM pace on consecutive days?? Thats not very marathon specific....

All that said, if you had dropped those runs on tuesday and wednesday you'd have easily ran 1:24, you have the long runs, I'm now doubting you have the marathon specificity...I'd be running midweek sessions of PMP miles from now on rather than HM pace and I'd say you're good for sub 3

Cheers Gringo,

No, last week would not have been a typical week. I usually run 10 miles Mondays, 6-8 on Tuesday with some speed work, 12 or so on Wednesday, 6-8 Thursday, Friday off and long runs on Saturdays and/or Sundays. Depends on the week and on how I'm feeling. Weekly mileage has between 50-80

Last week, I did nothing on Monday so I did my Monday work on Tuesday. I run on Wednesdays with my local club so generally do what I'm told those days. Last week didn't follow any logical plan, just trying to do some good middle-distance stamina work with pace towards the end.

Just to clarify, what exactly does PMP stand for? I've seen it a few times in this thread, obviously Something Marathon Pace, is it?

Thanks for the advice again.

Krusty_Clown

RunForestRun wrote: »

Just to clarify, what exactly does PMP stand for? I've seen it a few times in this thread, obviously Something Marathon Pace, is it?

Planned marathon pace.

--amadeus--

Right then after 1 semi serious attempt (Rotterdam 09, 3:06) and 1 failed serious attempt (Amsterdam 09, 3:00:36) I have finally broken 3 (Am'dam 10, 2:58:02) so here is a quick run down of what I learned, what worked and what didn't...

What worked in training:
- More miles. There is no escape from this, IMO. If you want to run fast you have to run long. Average weekly mileage in 09 was high 40s but in the run up to this race my mileage was far higher, on weeks I trained properly I averaged in teh high 50s at least with a couple of weeks in teh 70s

- Long runs. 5 runs of 20miles or more. While I didn't often push to PMP in my LSRs I did a couple of them as progression runs, for example starting at 8 min / miles for 5 miles, then 7:30's for 5, then 7:00 for 5 then down again for teh last five.

- Running easy. Easy days were easy - 8 min miles weren't unusual for standard runs and that kept my legs fresh for teh hard sessions

- Strides. When I tired during the race I concentrated on my form; stay upright, stay loose, maintain stride length & cadence. All stuff that was reinforced in weekly sessions of strides. When I found my pace dropping I focussed a bit and managed to speed up and feel better

What worked in the race:
- Old skool Tech. I ran with my Garmin but I disabled all of it's fancy functions. No HRM. No VP. No AutoLap. I basically used it as an over-priced stopwatch and every time I reached a km marker I manually lapped my watch. This meant that I had almost instant feedback on my pace and knew exactly where I was speedwise at every stage by distance raced rather than distance run. It also kept my focussed - every 4 minutes (or so) I was forced to look back at where I was and it stopped me drifting away into my own little world and losing a lot of time

- The racing line. Starting in pen B (just behind teh elites) meant that I had very little congestion and I either ran on the blue line or hugged the curves all teh way. Result was that the Garmin (when I checked at teh end ) recorded 42.3x kms run rather than the more usual 42.6x. A few hundred metres here or there might not seem much to get excited about but 300m could take a minute or more to run so following the racing line makes sense

- Confidence. I knew I had trained hard and had no doubt in my head I could run sub 3 this time. Every other time it's been a case of hoping, this time it was expected and that mental attitude showed in the pace. There is NO REAL DIFFERENCE between the effort of running 3:00:30 and in running 2:59:30. Sub 3 is an arbitrary line we draw, it's not a real barrier, it's an artificial one (albeit one I think you need to break to understand that)

What didn't work in training:
- Too many missed sessions. Holidays (2 missed weeks) and catching up on work after the holiday (another missed week) plus too many other sessions either lost or curtailed meant that I was always going to find 2:55 a push. Running 26 miles at 6:40 a mile is a big ask for me and hoping to do it off a patchy training cycle was optimistic. If you want to run fast you need to commit to it.

- Not enough fast running. Running easy was great for making sure I stayed injury free and fairly fresh in high mileage weeks. And I made most of my speed sessions but I did miss the two key PMP sessions (the 12 and 15 mile PMP runs). The longest PMP run I managed was 8 and it told. Likewise I had to bail on a couple of speed sessions for a whole range of reasons (a kids birthday party invading teh track midway through one for example). Sub 3 requires speed as well as stamina and that needs to be trained in and while I did enough speed work to get there I needed more to get to where I wanted

What didn't work on teh day
- Gels. I normally run and race with isotonic gels but we had a box of regular gels left over from a sponsor after the ultra event this year so I have been using them. In training they were fine but they didn't work here - the intervals I wanted to take them at didn't match with the water stations and I wasn't able to drink enough water to dilute the gels so they ended up as a gloop in my guts.

- Toenails. I always trim my nails a week ahead of teh race (in case I trim them to close it gives them time to grow out a bit) but this time I managed to leave a sharp edge that I hadn't noticed in teh shorter runs between then and teh race. By 8 or 10 miles in it was rubbing and painful but thankfully it eased after a while.

And that's it! A bit late for DCM this year but hopefully there is something in there that might be of use to someone!

misty floyd

--amadeus-- wrote: »

hopefully there is something in there that might be of use to someone!

...........very much so. Thanks and congratulations Amadeus!

ThePiedPiper

Well done Amadeus, your post is very useful and insightful.

I've just come off a failed sub 3 attempt in Amsterdam also. Was at sub 3 pace until 37 km and then fell off to finish a few minutes over.

What went wrong for me?

1. Stamina over 22 miles. This is a recurring problem for me and something that needs proper attention. In my next training schedule, I am going to incorporate LSRs of 23 or 24 miles. The double step up in the marathon is difficult so my body needs to get used to running closer to race distance in training.

2. Attempting constant pace throughout with no fading margin for error. In other sub 3 attempts, I always was through 13.1 in 1.27 or 1.28. For Sunday's race, I attempted to go exactly 1.30 and 1.30. While this was fine for 35 km, I had no margin for error and when I dropped 20 seconds by 37 km, there was no way back.

3. Base fitness at the start of my programme was not high enough. When I started serious training in August, I was not fit enough. I spent the first month or 6 weeks playing catch up.

What worked:

1. Training with a club.
2. More long runs.
3. More tempo runs.
4. Hydration and pre-race preparation.

Best of luck to all the sub 3 hopefuls in Dublin.

--amadeus--

One other thing I noticed this time... It's natural in a big event to run with and pace off those around you. Between 25 and 35 I ran rock solid consistent km splits (literally the 5k splits were identical to the second) and you would not believe the number of people I went past, almost all of them runners I recognised from my peer group in the earlier stages of the race. I was holding a steady rhythm but they were all slowing in little pockets of 2 and 3 runners. As you get tired it's reassuring to be running with people you know set out at the same pace and with the same goal as you but holding station with a group might mean you are going backwards against the clock. You really do need to be wide awake and on your toes, especially in that dead zone between 22 and 32kms.