The Sub 3 Support Thread

MisterDrak

Amadeus,

Superb advice in the last couple of posts. In particular #388 contains most of the stuff that any serious runner needs to know for a sub 3 attempt. Going to print that one out and put on the mirror (See Rocky 4) for my sub 3 attempt next year.

Tks...

Krusty_Clown

--amadeus-- wrote: »

One other thing I noticed this time... It's natural in a big event to run with and pace off those around you. Between 25 and 35 I ran rock solid consistent km splits (literally the 5k splits were identical to the second) and you would not believe the number of people I went past, almost all of them runners I recognised from my peer group in the earlier stages of the race. I was holding a steady rhythm but they were all slowing in little pockets of 2 and 3 runners. As you get tired it's reassuring to be running with people you know set out at the same pace and with the same goal as you but holding station with a group might mean you are going backwards against the clock. You really do need to be wide awake and on your toes, especially in that dead zone between 22 and 32kms.

Good point. I fell asleep at the wheel at around mile 21 in Berlin, and because I wasn't strictly adhering to a pacing strategy (only occasionally checking my time against the pace band) I didn't notice that those around me had slowed. So many people get their pacing strategy incorrect (positive split aficionados) that it becomes a real danger. Once you recognise the fact though, it's easy to identify those that are picking up speed versus those that are falling off the pace.

ELFOYZER

Sound advice Amadeus and well done on sub3.

Dutchie

I'm a first time marathon runner. My head is melted at the moment.

I finished the Adidas HM in 1.24.30.

Training has been going well, I've completed 3 x 20 mile and 1 x 22miler (2.36) LSR.

One question, am I being to ambitious trying to run DCM under 3 hours?

thanks and good luck to everyone.

--amadeus--

TBH that really depends on a whole host of other factors such as how long you have been running, how many races you've run, how hard the half was, if you tapered for it, how many miles you've been logging per week, etc.

The 22 was done at a really good clip though, which is a very good sign. The generic advice is to start slow and speed up but maybe trying to hang off teh back of the 3hr pacers would be worth a shot. You sound like you have sub 3 in you, but first maras are hard enough without that kind of pressure.

Tough one to call!

Krusty_Clown

Dutchie wrote: »

I'm a first time marathon runner. My head is melted at the moment.

I finished the Adidas HM in 1.24.30.

Training has been going well, I've completed 3 x 20 mile and 1 x 22miler (2.36) LSR.

One question, am I being to ambitious trying to run DCM under 3 hours?

thanks and good luck to everyone.

Sounds like you're in decent shape to make a very good go of it. Is it risky? Sure it is, but your training sounds spot on.

theboyblunder

Dutchie wrote: »

I'm a first time marathon runner. My head is melted at the moment.

I finished the Adidas HM in 1.24.30.

Training has been going well, I've completed 3 x 20 mile and 1 x 22miler (2.36) LSR.

One question, am I being to ambitious trying to run DCM under 3 hours?

thanks and good luck to everyone.

Probably IMO. Sorry, dont want to be negative, but that half time is on the cusp of what is suppposed to be required (everyone if different of course and there are exceptions, but that is what i ran in may and I didnt make it in august).

If this wasnt your first marathon id say by all means go for it - excellent chance of getting it, but this is your first marathon.

I would suggest running the first half with the pacers. If you are beginning to fade at that point, back off and enjoy the race, you will still run a super time.

If you feel strong at that point, then go for it!

Hope you get your time, but more importantly enjoy the race - you only get one first marathon.

bart simpson

Dutchie wrote: »

I'm a first time marathon runner. My head is melted at the moment.

I finished the Adidas HM in 1.24.30.

Training has been going well, I've completed 3 x 20 mile and 1 x 22miler (2.36) LSR.

One question, am I being to ambitious trying to run DCM under 3 hours?

thanks and good luck to everyone.

how did you race the half? if your pace was all over the place and you got that time, then there is good room for imrovement hanging onto the coatails of the sub 3 pacers. best of luck

Krusty_Clown

Everyone has their own interpretation of what kind of equivalent time you would need to run in a half marathon in order to achieve a sub 3. McMillan says 1:25, and I would tend to agree. If runners can successfully run under 1:25 for a half and still not achieve a sub 3, it can be based on any number of reasons, for example:
1) Lack of endurance
2) Lack of long distance training runs
3) Greater aptitude (physiology) for shorter distances
4) Illness (as was the case for theboyblunder)
5) Nutrition
6) Pacing
7) bad luck
I would have been delighted with a 1:24 half in the weeks leading up to the marathon where i broke 3 hours (2:55). 1:24 and the training that Dutchie has done is a great launch-pad for a sub-3 attempt.

kennyb3

Also here is an oldie but a goodie thread, discussing same

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055722603#post62724199

Edit: I should add there wasnt many sub 3's on there but it's still useful but probably more so for novices

seanynova

kennyb3 wrote: »

Also here is an oldie but a goodie thread, discussing same

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055722603#post62724199

Edit: I should add there wasnt many sub 3's on there but it's still useful but probably more so for novices

i shouldnt be reading this thread at all!
be giving me ideas of trying to run for 2:55 on monday...:rolleyes:

best of luck to those trying to break sub3 anyways...see ye up there.

aero2k

A huge congratulations to the latest member or the sub-3 gang, Amadeus. Your regular posts were a huge inspiration to my attempt last year.

I'm hoping your recent perfomance will inspire all the sub-3 hopefuls on Monday morning.

Best of luck lads, I'll be at the 6 mile mark.

Dutchie

Hi Guys thanks for all the advice.

I finished DCM in 3.01.45!!

i was over the moon seeing it was my first time out. Strategy was to hang on to the back of the 3 hour pacer until 17-18mile and then get up with them.

But when I went to up the pace I couldn't make up the ground. Still i didn't blow-up. I went through the 10k in 42mins and through the half in 1.30.22

What a day, what a crowd! It was so emotional crossing the line.

Can't wait for DCM 2011. The sub 3 hour is going to be 'taken down to Chinatown'

Congrats to all the guys who ran sub 3, what an achievement!

Slogger Jogger

Another example for us 3+ers knocking at the door to get in. Quite a difficult admissions policy on that door.

Up to this year I was neck and neck with a friend of mine who this year got it right in terms of training dedication - tempo runs, races, intervals, LSRs and rest. In foul weather in Cork in June he got under 3 hrs for the first time, 2:58ish. He's since ran 1:17ish for a half marathon and sub 36 for a 10k. Hard work and dedication.

Myself and himself lined up for Dublin yesteday, both uncertain starters - me with a aching groin, he with a sore hamstring. Sore hamstring my arse He only went out and ran 2:49.

1 minute your knocking on the door of sub 3, the next the sky is the limit. We've seen that with other dedicated boardsies too. For the rest of us the message is keep it going and believe in yourself.

misty floyd

Disclaimer: Obviously, some of this is my opinion, what works/worked for me.

Learnings.

Bit of Background: I learned a lot on Monday and during training but I also learned a lot about the race I had in Rotterdam (April 2010). All the way through training for DCM, I never felt like I was running as free or as strong as back in April. My 10m time in March (62'12 finishing like a train) was a lot better than my Dublin half time in Sept (1'24'45 ok but finishing sick and horrible). Not only that, Rotterdam was way way easier than DCM. What I mean here is, I was way fitter for Rotterdam...I just know it.

So how'd I do it this time?

- The pacers at DCM. A hugh benefit. I won't say I wouldn't have done it without them, I think I would if I'm honest but who knows. All I know is that it was so much easier to zone out come mile 18 when I was right up next to him. I'm so greatful for the pacer and I think its a really generous thing to do. Major thanks for that.

- The experience of running 3'00'30 in Rotterdam. Not stressing too much over time and knowing I could run a 3hr marathon (with negative split) and not blow up was big. Being sick on the last week of taper, I wouldn't have gone for sub 3 if I didn't know this. I was injured after Rotterdam for about 8weeks and had a bad time of things but that marathon and the training was still in my legs. Muscle memory and all that? In a way, being sick took the pressure off. I had nothing to loose but still I was desperate for sub 3.

- Home town marathon. Knowing the route helps big time and Tunguska's post detailing all of the miles was very useful. It meant there was no 'ah sh!t' thoughts when you come across a hill. You expect to see it and get on with it. I also had a good nights sleep the two nights before the race, in my own bed and ate all of the food I was used to. Lovely.

- I'm not sure if this helped. I had a better final two days of eating and drinking water. I made more of an effort with this than previous times making sure I ate lots of smaller size carb meals and drinking lots of water. I sipped on water all week because I figured I was loosing lots of water with the very runny nose I had. Might have been nothing but I'll stick to this next time.

- I now think (and I'm going back on what I said) that it is better to go for close to even splits. Thinking back, I ran out of miles in Rotterdam trying to pull back ~90 seconds from 18miles. I think if doing this, you need to go for it at half way. I do think that a negative split is the way to go but so long as you don't leave too much work to do too late. Might be different for a course like NY or Boston where there are though hills at the end. I don't know.

- Note to self. I need to stop looking back at how I felt before and comparing to the present. I moaned a lot during training this time and wanted to bin the sub 3 attempt because I felt I wasn't as stong as when I had a 3hr marathon at a flat course. This is silly stuff. Every race has its own story and you never know what can happen. Be positive.

- A general point we all hear. So much of marathon running is in the head. I always thought that this was a load of crap. Its not crap. Obviously, you need serious training to run sub 3 and you need to not blow up. I think its important to point out that if you blow up, your mind can get you home and that in itself is a serious acheivement. I'm talking more about the later stages of the race were you haven't blown up, when you are hurting like hell and you really want to slow down, your mind is telling you to ease off. Don't listen to that sh1t at mile 23. It is so important to be positive during the race, believe you can do it and don't give into the demons. I had bad thougths during the race on Monday. I mean I was hurting but its amazing how your mind can snap you out of it.

- You need to be comfortable for the first 6 miles or so. I mean I think it really should feel like you are holding right back.

- As per training for Rotterdam what worked for me was the 2 big workouts per week. The LSR was either long and slow or slow with PMP miles at the end. See training attached. There is also a worksheet for my Rotterdam training. The med/long run during the week was a mix of Brendan O'Sheas Fartlek advice or Tergats big workout of 4x2m @ HMP. A brilliant session I did was a 4x3m @ MP with 2m warm up and 2m cool down on the thurs of the 3rd last week. EDIT: forgot to add: Lots of easy miles on days between the big workouts. This time around easy felt like 8:00 - 8:15.

- Believe in the training you have bagged.

- Lunaracers. I wore these on Monday and I gotta say, they are brilliant. So cushioned and light. B O'Shea recommended wearing racing shoes so thats what I did. Don't know if they made a difference but I'll wear them again only because I had no problems with them. Although I have got bruises on my feet now but feck it.

Thats all I can think of right now.

misty floyd

Forgot to attach the training.

Dutchie

Great post Misty.

I know i haven't joined the sub 3hr club yet, but for what its worth I did a VO2 max test in a lab about 10 weeks out from the DCM. I found this really helped when using my garmin HRM during my training sessions and the DCM itself.

The one thing I found strange was the small amount of weight i lost throughout my training. I went from 90kg to 88kg!

seanynova

for the dublin marathon, i stuck to daniels plan....i did so because:

a) a had lot more planned long LSR's and on top of that, some of the LSRs had tempo miles-(if i could get through them, then i could get through the marathon kind of thing)

b) i didnt do as much speed work, mainly tempo runs, but the tempos ranged from 10-13miles total with 5-8m of tempo running, so they were big sessions.

c) only did 2 quality sessions per week.

d) overall mileage was higher with lots and lots of easy/slow miles

some of the sessions i did also:
3x VO2max workouts (1per week for the 1st 3weeks)
11x tempo runs (1per week thereafter)
7x mid week med long runs (10-15m)
3 LSR's in the build up to the "long" ones (11/12/16)
5x “long” LSR (18/20/18/22/20)
3x "long" LSR with tempo miles (17/21/22)
2x "long" PMP (20 with 15@PMP)
1x half marathon race (week 10 of 16 – 1:21:56mins)

hope this helps..
(also the training log "i amsterdam 2010" has the full details if interested)

misty floyd

Dutchie wrote: »

Great post Misty.

I know i haven't joined the sub 3hr club yet, but for what its worth I did a VO2 max test in a lab about 10 weeks out from the DCM. I found this really helped when using my garmin HRM during my training sessions and the DCM itself.

The one thing I found strange was the small amount of weight i lost throughout my training. I went from 90kg to 88kg!

Thats another thing I noticed, I was heavier by 4lbs doing DCM but I did gain a lot of weight after my Spring attempt so I did loose about 5lbs in the 12 weeks prior to DCM.
I'm not mad on the HRM wearing. I can see why its useful but I like to go by feel and I hate wearing the thing. Its also another thing to think about. People seem to benefit from them in a big way I know. Good luck with the attempt Dutchie.

tisnotover

misty floyd wrote: »

Forgot to attach the training.

great post Misty and thanks for posting your training log, I really like all those HMP/tempo sessions you did, especially that 4*2mile :-)

well done again!

--amadeus--

Which Daniels plan did you follow Sean? How did you find teh LSRs with threshold miles?

I used P&Ds 70 mile plan last time but didn't stick well to it most of the time. This time out I'm hoping to take a big chunk of time off so I am dropping the P&D speed and LSR sessions and replacing them with Daniels sessions which involve an awful lot more significantly faster running and teh LSRs that sandwich a T mile in between 2 * 6@ PMP look great on paper but must be bloody hard to run.

dermCu

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Which Daniels plan did you follow Sean? How did you find teh LSRs with threshold miles?

I used P&Ds 70 mile plan last time but didn't stick well to it most of the time. This time out I'm hoping to take a big chunk of time off so I am dropping the P&D speed and LSR sessions and replacing them with Daniels sessions which involve an awful lot more significantly faster running and teh LSRs that sandwich a T mile in between 2 * 6@ PMP look great on paper but must be bloody hard to run.

If I'm not mistaken that's the elite training plan from Daniels??
There is a world of difference between P&D 70 mile plan and Daniels elite.
Daniels marathon plan A would be a much better bridge between the two - even that is bloody hard in places.

--amadeus--

dermCu wrote: »

If I'm not mistaken that's the elite training plan from Daniels??
There is a world of difference between P&D 70 mile plan and Daniels elite.
Daniels marathon plan A would be a much better bridge between the two - even that is bloody hard in places.

Well spotted! It is the elite plan but I'm picking it for a couple of reasons. Firstly I'm combining it with the P&D plan so it's more of a hybrid than an out an out Daniels plan. I also have a very erratic work schedule - I can have loads of free time one week and be doing 60 hours+ the next so I tend to plan a hard schedule in teh expectation that sessions will get missed or shortened. If they don't then great, I get a tough week but if they do I still get a solid weeks training in - planning a 70 mile week and missing 20% still sees me doing 56 miles. Planning a 50 mile week and missing 20% means doing 40 miles which just isn't enough for me to stay at this level.

My main reason though is that the elite plan very neatly addresses all of my current weaknesses. I have absolutely no problem running a session of sub 6 min miles so simple leg speed is not a problem. Likewise I can run easy all day long so outright stamina is not an issue. What I specifically lack are speed stamina and mental toughness.

Every single marathon I have faded badly towards the end. By running significantly more PMP and threshold miles in training as well as increasing the number of 22 mile runs I will be directly addressing this. And reading the logs and race reports it is clear that I am far, far too relaxed when I race - there is no way I put in anything like the effort that the recent sub 3 runners did; when my legs started to ache a bit I just relaxed and enjoyed the ride. Tougher and faster weekly speed sessions and short sharpish bursts of speed in the middle of LSRs should re-educate me on what my legs can do and hopefully give me the mental edge to tough it out in a race.

robinph

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Every single marathon I have faded badly towards the end. By running significantly more PMP and threshold miles in training as well as increasing the number of 22 mile runs I will be directly addressing this. And reading the logs and race reports it is clear that I am far, far too relaxed when I race - there is no way I put in anything like the effort that the recent sub 3 runners did; when my legs started to ache a bit I just relaxed and enjoyed the ride. Tougher and faster weekly speed sessions and short sharpish bursts of speed in the middle of LSRs should re-educate me on what my legs can do and hopefully give me the mental edge to tough it out in a race.

Not going to claim any knowledge on any training plans, but the last miles are definitely about the mental challenge rather than the physical. You clearly need to be physically capable of keeping going and things can still go wrong with that aspect, but convincing your head that your body can survive the pain, or just ignoring the pain, is a big part of it. I'm not sure how much actual speed I have gained from the speed sessions I was doing with the club, but I do think that the chasing really speedy guys around in those sessions trying not to be last each time helped me get through the pain of keeping going towards the end.

If your enjoying it then your not trying hard enough.

seanynova

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Which Daniels plan did you follow Sean? How did you find teh LSRs with threshold miles?

I used P&Ds 70 mile plan last time but didn't stick well to it most of the time. This time out I'm hoping to take a big chunk of time off so I am dropping the P&D speed and LSR sessions and replacing them with Daniels sessions which involve an awful lot more significantly faster running and teh LSRs that sandwich a T mile in between 2 * 6@ PMP look great on paper but must be bloody hard to run.

dermCu wrote: »

If I'm not mistaken that's the elite training plan from Daniels??
There is a world of difference between P&D 70 mile plan and Daniels elite.
Daniels marathon plan A would be a much better bridge between the two - even that is bloody hard in places.

as dermCu says, your looking at the elite plan, i followed the Plan A. the LSR with tempo miles were tough but it was very much on the mental side of things as well as physical. the 4x6min are ok cos its just 6min of tempo running each, but the 12 and 15min were a lot harder....

if you are going to follow the elite plan look at daniels suggested times for each "part" of the session. i think a tempo is 4min, PMP is 5min etc....

--amadeus-- wrote: »

My main reason though is that the elite plan very neatly addresses all of my current weaknesses. I have absolutely no problem running a session of sub 6 min miles so simple leg speed is not a problem. Likewise I can run easy all day long so outright stamina is not an issue. What I specifically lack are speed stamina and mental toughness.

Every single marathon I have faded badly towards the end. By running significantly more PMP and threshold miles in training as well as increasing the number of 22 mile runs I will be directly addressing this. And reading the logs and race reports it is clear that I am far, far too relaxed when I race - there is no way I put in anything like the effort that the recent sub 3 runners did; when my legs started to ache a bit I just relaxed and enjoyed the ride. Tougher and faster weekly speed sessions and short sharpish bursts of speed in the middle of LSRs should re-educate me on what my legs can do and hopefully give me the mental edge to tough it out in a race.

robinph wrote: »

Not going to claim any knowledge on any training plans, but the last miles are definitely about the mental challenge rather than the physical. You clearly need to be physically capable of keeping going and things can still go wrong with that aspect, but convincing your head that your body can survive the pain, or just ignoring the pain, is a big part of it. I'm not sure how much actual speed I have gained from the speed sessions I was doing with the club, but I do think that the chasing really speedy guys around in those sessions trying not to be last each time helped me get through the pain of keeping going towards the end.

If your enjoying it then your not trying hard enough.

the last 2 races i ran, i did negative splits with the last few miles amoung the fastest of the miles per race...
following on from what robinph said above, DCM for me; the last few miles were 100% physical challenge, not effort or anything either but my feet were sore! (they were my fastest miles splits too) but the "ease"(you know what i mean) of the race has to be attributed to the sessions id did follwoing the daniels plan.

a side note, turns out i was in better shape than i thought...
i know of 2 others who ran over 1min slower than me in the cork half marathon got 2:53 & 2:54 respectively in DCM.
if i didnt get injured i would have attempted an assault on low 2:5X too, but next time round maybe.

ThePiedPiper

Background

Some of you might remember from my previous posts that I've had a couple of near misses with sub 3 including a 3.00.21 a couple of years back. My last proper attempt at it was last October in Amsterdam when I was on pace until 37km before falling back 5 minutes. All of my failures always came in the last 5-8km of races so I needed to change things. Here's what I did:

Base level of fitness

For my last sub 3 attempt, my base fitness level was too low. 1.26 in the Dublin half marathon suggested I was in with a chance of sub-3 but would be hoping for the best. After my 3.05 in October, I took just 10 days rest and got back to it.

More focused training

1. Interval training. Twice weekly, I'd do a session of 1/4 and 1/2 mile reps and the odd mile. Over the course of a few weeks, my times for those distances came down to 1.05, 2.25 and 5.18.

2. Tempo miles in the longer runs. All long runs included PMP miles. In November, this would be maybe 5 miles tempo, by mid-January, 12-14 miles tempo. Always nearing the end of the long runs.

3. Longer and slower LSRs. To address my constant fading at 20-23 miles in marathons, I stretched out some of the LSRs to 21-23 miles incorporating tempo.

4. Slow recovery runs. Especially on Sundays after a long Saturday session and one other weekday slow run after a tough previous day.

5. Garmin 405 was absolutely essential to all of the above. I'd been slow to embrace technology but I'm a big fan now, wouldn't consider going running without it now.

6. Pacing and intensity in shorter distance races. Ran strongly in a 6k cross-country a 1.23 half marathon. These were the early indicators that my different training was working.

7. Embrace the treadmill!!! With the December we had, I had to stick to the threadmill for a few weeks. This included 15 & 16 mile LSRs, tempo sessions, reps, hills and obviously heat to prepare me for the possibility of a warm Spring day in Seville. I'm not the biggest fan of treadmills but I'd have been lost without it this winter.

Pre race

Pre-race preparation is down to a fine art at this stage. I always travel 2 days prior to raceday (lesson learnt from a 3.05 in Berlin). Carbo loading lasts for 3 days. I don't stuff myself for a week because there's no real need. I drink lots of water and have my last big meal in mid-afternoon the day before the race. I always take my own cornflakes with me on foreign marathons. Eating dry doughey bagels in Boston taught me that lesson. About a pint of water 3 hours before the race is enough to make sure I'm not de-hydrated and gives enough time to ensure bladder is empty pre-race to avoid pitstops.

The race

The race in Seville starts and finishes in the Olympic Stadium. There were no pens for fast runners so I got a bit boxed in. The first mile was a terrible 7.52 because of the volume of runners on the track, the narrow tunnel out of the stadium and general crowds. Mile 2 was 6.42 and from there on in, pace was steady (6.40 - 6.48). I took gels at 6, 11, 17 and 22 miles. Again, this was a first for me but I'd taken them on my LSRs so I was happy enough. The course is flat and fast. The temp was about 5 at the start and 13 at the end with no wind. I was through the half in 1.29.50 so I'd made up the time lost on the first mile. At mile 23, I was confident I wasn't going to tire at the end so dropped the pace to 6.32 per mile for the last 3. Going into the stadium, my watch was approaching 2.58 so it was in the bag. I probably covered the last 300m in about 40 seconds of sprinting and punching the air. Job done!!!

theboyblunder

great post. well done

TFBubendorfer

Congratulations! I really hope I will be able to write a very similar post in 2 months' time...

TFBubendorfer

Well, as I said 2 months ago I hoped to be able to write a similar post 2 months later, and now, 2 months later, I was indeed able to write a similar post.

http://rubbishrunner.blogspot.com/2011/04/what-i-always-wanted.html

seanynova

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Well, as I said 2 months ago I hoped to be able to write a similar post 2 months later, and now, 2 months later, I was indeed able to write a similar post.

http://rubbishrunner.blogspot.com/2011/04/what-i-always-wanted.html

great report!
looking at your marathon history, you have come a long way, well done!

wouldnt worry about the HR levels, very similar to Ryan Hall's marathon HR