The Sub 3 Support Thread

aero2k

seanynova wrote: »

great report!
looking at your marathon history, you have come a long way, well done!

wouldnt worry about the HR levels, very similar to Ryan Hall's marathon HR

+1^, absolutely delighted for you TFB, and your blog report is as impressive as your race performance.

On the HR thing, I never look at it in races - one of the (few) benefits of increasing age is the numbers at the top right of the Garmin screen are too small to see!

Good to see you also proved the worth in JD's advice: "If you're struggling, speed up!" I'll have to try that myself someday.....

Gringo78

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Well, as I said 2 months ago I hoped to be able to write a similar post 2 months later, and now, 2 months later, I was indeed able to write a similar post.

http://rubbishrunner.blogspot.com/2011/04/what-i-always-wanted.html

I looked up the results on Monday, saw the routine 1:29:xx splits for both halves, the 2:59:xx finish and just assumed you had a routine, run within yourself conservative, get it in the bag, sub 3 marathon. I expected a race report along the lines of....ran at 6:48 pace, felt comfortable all the way, crossed the line with 2:59 showing..yay....how wrong was I!

Well done TFB, delighted for you and impressed the way you dug in. Its funny, you were probably in 2:55 shape shape during training but whatever happened on the day, it seems you were well off form and were maybe not in sub 3 shape at all (if that makes any sense considering you ran sub 3) yet you overcame a pain threshold and the only way you were able to overcome it was because you knew the pain of not doing it afterwards was going to be worse. Probably something you can only do when a goal means a hell of a lot to you and you'll probably never be able to push yourself so hard again i.e I think you will run a marathon faster but you will never run a marathon harder

brownian

Wow TFB. I've enjoyed reading the odd entry in your blog (soon to be renamed, I assume), but that was a serious lay-it-on-the-line race and report. A real page-turner, if this machine had a page. Congratulations on going sub-3!! Delighted for you.:)

shotgunmcos

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

That night, when I brushed my teeth, I looked into the mirror and saw a sub-3 marathon runner looking back at me.

Loved that line Super report and well done on your sub3, thoroughly deserved and delighted for you.

TFBubendorfer

Gringo78 wrote: »

Well done TFB, delighted for you and impressed the way you dug in. Its funny, you were probably in 2:55 shape shape during training but whatever happened on the day, it seems you were well off form and were maybe not in sub 3 shape at all (if that makes any sense considering you ran sub 3) yet you overcame a pain threshold and the only way you were able to overcome it was because you knew the pain of not doing it afterwards was going to be worse. Probably something you can only do when a goal means a hell of a lot to you and you'll probably never be able to push yourself so hard again i.e I think you will run a marathon faster but you will never run a marathon harder

Thanks everyone! I agree with the above, I'm pretty sure I was in 2:55 shape before the marathon but I think travelling for 12 hours on Wednesday and then a few stressful sightseeing days in Vienna with 4 kids left me a bit worn out. But if you're in 2:55 shape you can have a bad day and still break 3 hours, and I think that's exactly what happened on Sunday.

In the end it came down to one thing only, I had to want it badly enough to push through the pain barrier and run right at the edge of my abilities on the day.

Rebelrunner

Well done TFB, inspiration to all runners reading that. Have you stopped smiling since :-)

TFBubendorfer

Rebelrunner wrote: »

Well done TFB, inspiration to all runners reading that. Have you stopped smiling since :-)

I think they will have to surgically remove that permanent grin off my face eventually

ecoli

Thought this thread could do with a bit of a revival as there is some great information for people and it would be a shame to lose it (especially for people who didnt know about it and are now seeing it for the first time)

shotgunmcos

Nice timing ecoli, I'm 24 days from a crack at it. Must have a read back over the gems for a bit of inspiration

robinph

A month and a bit from doing another marathon, yes I know I said after the last that I'd never do another one and now I'm currently signed up for two. <shrugs>

Not quite sure yet what kind of pace to aim for, I have actually done more training than ever before but I expect I'm still a way off any reccomended level of mileage in the various training plans. It was the doing a couple of 1:23 halfs before Dublin that played a part in convinving me I could do the required pace for sub 3 and I then got lucky on the day.

Have another half in a week and a bit so wil be trying for around 1:21'ish. The idea of going starting off a marathon at 6:30'ish pace is a bit daunting though and that would be the equivalent kind of full marathon pace I should then be aiming for according to the likes of McMillan.

Just need to HTFU and go for it.

TFBubendorfer

Thanks ecoli for the reminder. The satisfied perma-smile from Vienna was just about to fade away when reading the last few entries here brought it all back again.

KielyUnusual

Thought I might bump this up. Had a good gawk back over the posts and there's some great information for those going for sub 3 in a marathon.

RayCun

I was going to resurrect this in the new year

ThePiedPiper

This is a great old thread, nice reading over some of the older posts in it.

I'm probably back where I was a couple of years back, getting ready for an attempt at sub-3 in Budapest on 7th October.

I did London in April this year, but it was never a goal race. Life, work, college and sickness all ganged up on me in a perfect storm to stop what was a reasonable build-up in February. I then managed the amazing total of 8 training sessions in 8 weeks leading up to the race, targeted a 3.15 and finished in 3.22, but enjoyed it all.

However, from June, I've been really able to step up the training. I put in a serious block of 300+ miles in 3 weeks of July when I was supposed to be immersing myself in the Irish language in Gaoth Dobhair. Even though most of that training was at easy pace (7:30 - 8:00), it seems to have done wonders for my aerobic and general conditioning. I've got my 5k time down to high 17s, half marathon in Athenry was done in 1.23.30 and the long runs are at a similar pace and quality prior to my 2.58 in Seville 2011.

Ultimately, I'd love to take a crack at sub 2.55 in Budapest in October. I tried for that time in DCM 2011, but the gamble backfired badly with a Milltown meltdown and a 3.07 finish. I don't want to drag my wife the whole way to Hungary to blow up in the race, so unless I'm totally confident of 2.55, I'll stick to 2.57/58 pace and see what's in the tank in the home stretch. There've been too many inglorious blowouts; 3.00.21, 3.05 x 2 and a 3.07. I want to see 2:xx:xx on the clock again!

Dutchie

RunForestRun wrote: »

This is a great old thread, nice reading over some of the older posts in it.

I'm probably back where I was a couple of years back, getting ready for an attempt at sub-3 in Budapest on 7th October.

I did London in April this year, but it was never a goal race. Life, work, college and sickness all ganged up on me in a perfect storm to stop what was a reasonable build-up in February. I then managed the amazing total of 8 training sessions in 8 weeks leading up to the race, targeted a 3.15 and finished in 3.22, but enjoyed it all.

However, from June, I've been really able to step up the training. I put in a serious block of 300+ miles in 3 weeks of July when I was supposed to be immersing myself in the Irish language in Gaoth Dobhair. Even though most of that training was at easy pace (7:30 - 8:00), it seems to have done wonders for my aerobic and general conditioning. I've got my 5k time down to high 17s, half marathon in Athenry was done in 1.23.30 and the long runs are at a similar pace and quality prior to my 2.58 in Seville 2011.

Ultimately, I'd love to take a crack at sub 2.55 in Budapest in October. I tried for that time in DCM 2011, but the gamble backfired badly with a Milltown meltdown and a 3.07 finish. I don't want to drag my wife the whole way to Hungary to blow up in the race, so unless I'm totally confident of 2.55, I'll stick to 2.57/58 pace and see what's in the tank in the home stretch. There've been too many inglorious blowouts; 3.00.21, 3.05 x 2 and a 3.07. I want to see 2:xx:xx on the clock again!

I've been lurking for a while now. Training is going well now or so i thought. I did a lactate stress test on Wednesday. Lactate levels were higher at the same speeds than when I last tested 2 years ago. However HR was lower! I don't understand my stupid body.

I ran 5k a month ago in 17.50 and the frank duffy last month in 61.30 knocking 5 mins of my last PB set in 2010.

My LSR's have been strong avg pace is below 7.30 and I'm up to 20miles. I've finished them all strong unlike 2010. Tomorrow I've got to do 22m.

I was really disappointed with the test on Wednesday. Am I thinking to much about it? I really want to break the 3 hours in Dublin. I finished DCM 2010 in 3.01.45 expecting to do a 3.15.

Any advice would be great. Many thanks.

ThePiedPiper

I don't really understand the whole lactate thing, I've never gotton tested. I also stopped using my HR monitor about 4 years ago, so train only on pace. If I was you, I wouldn't get hung up on the test results. The proof of your training is in the results you've been getting.

On pace alone, you're 30 seconds a mile faster than when you ran 3:01 in 2010. That's a huge improvement. What way are you approaching the long runs at the moment? Are you doing PMP miles or is it more steady?

I'm structuring my long runs something like this at the minute: 7:25 pace for 9 miles, 6:30-6:50 for 9 and couple of miles recovery. As I haven't really decided on whether marathon pace is going to be 6:39 or 6:49, I'm doing the PMP sections of the long runs at various paces. I'm not sure how much sense it makes, but that's the logic.

Have you set yourself a goal for the half Dutchie? I reckon sub 1.25 is an absolute must for a sub-3 marathon. You doing the Race Series half?

Krusty_Clown

+1. Forget about the test. I ran the Frank Duffy one year in 60:01, and then ran Berlin marathon a few weeks later in 2:48, so it sounds like you're right up there where you need to be.

Dutchie

Thanks Lads, I've been feeling strong in training as said before the Lactate profile testing really set me back. I'm hoping to do the half next Saturday sub 63 mins. After reading TFBubendorfer's excellent blog, anything can happen and usually does in the run-up and during the marathon. And this is coming from a veteran on 1 marathon All I want to do is break 3 hours aaaaaaaaaah.

opus

Dutchie wrote: »

I've been lurking for a while now. Training is going well now or so i thought. I did a lactate stress test on Wednesday. Lactate levels were higher at the same speeds than when I last tested 2 years ago. However HR was lower! I don't understand my stupid body.

I ran 5k a month ago in 17.50 and the frank duffy last month in 61.30 knocking 5 mins of my last PB set in 2010.

My LSR's have been strong avg pace is below 7.30 and I'm up to 20miles. I've finished them all strong unlike 2010. Tomorrow I've got to do 22m.

I was really disappointed with the test on Wednesday. Am I thinking to much about it? I really want to break the 3 hours in Dublin. I finished DCM 2010 in 3.01.45 expecting to do a 3.15.

Any advice would be great. Many thanks.

Will admit my ignorance of the lactate test up-front, I've no idea what that result means! My own experience was that a 62:04 10m race gave me the confidence to chance my arm in a marathon a month later to try and stick with the 3-hour pacer from the off. It certainly wasn't an easy run and I lost the pacer in the last few k but I just made it over the line around 10 secs under the three hours.

So I'd certainly say to give it a lash based on your time at the Frank Duffy run. Best of luck!

Dutchie

opus wrote: »

Will admit my ignorance of the lactate test up-front, I've no idea what that result means! My own experience was that a 62:04 10m race gave me the confidence to chance my arm in a marathon a month later to try and stick with the 3-hour pacer from the off. It certainly wasn't an easy run and I lost the pacer in the last few k but I just made it over the line around 10 secs under the three hours.

So I'd certainly say to give it a lash based on your time at the Frank Duffy run. Best of luck!

How many marathons had you completed prior to your sub-3?

KielyUnusual

Dutchie wrote: »

Thanks Lads, I've been feeling strong in training as said before the Lactate profile testing really set me back. I'm hoping to do the half next Saturday sub 63 mins. After reading TFBubendorfer's excellent blog, anything can happen and usually does in the run-up and during the marathon. And this is coming from a veteran on 1 marathon All I want to do is break 3 hours aaaaaaaaaah.

From my limited understanding of Lactate Threshold, it is more of an issue for short and middle distance runners as the marathon is 99% aerobic. Your heart rate would be much more of an endurance indicator so since your training is marathon specific, it makes sense that this is where you would see the improvement.

Your times seem well on line for a sub 3, so as long you get the proper training in, I'm sure you'll make it. There's some great advice on training back over this thread. I particularly liked some of Tergat's marathon sepcific sessions. There's a 5/4/3/2/1 interval session at marathon pace that I'm going to try in a few weeks after the half. If I could do 15 miles at marathon pace in that format, I'm sure it would be a good indicator that I'm on target.

By the way, if you plan to do 63 minutes in the half, I'd have ideas about winning the marathon:D.

Dutchie

KielyUnusual wrote: »

By the way, if you plan to do 63 minutes in the half, I'd have ideas about winning the marathon:D.

ha ha, of course i meant 83.

TFBubendorfer

Dutchie wrote: »

I ran 5k a month ago in 17.50 and the frank duffy last month in 61.30 knocking 5 mins of my last PB set in 2010.

You have nothing to worry about. The sub-3 is yours as long as you don't do anything stupid between now and the marathon that would destroy your form!

opus

Dutchie wrote: »

How many marathons had you completed prior to your sub-3?

It was #4, Cork -> Berlin -> Dublin -> Leipzig. Cause Dublin was so close to Berlin I took it handy and ran around a bit slower with a friend of mine.

ThePiedPiper

I had to wait until my 11th marathon to hit sub 3. I ran 3:00.21 on in my 5th marathon, 3:05 in my 6th and 10th and put it together properly on #11. In my early marathons, my training wasn't particularly smart. I used to try to do 20 mile LSRs always under 2 hours 20. I didn't do enough easy days and didn't use gels until my 11th marathon. I think smarter training is what got me under 3.

TFBubendorfer

Dutchie wrote: »

How many marathons had you completed prior to your sub-3?

opus wrote: »

It was #4, Cork -> Berlin -> Dublin -> Leipzig.

RunForestRun wrote: »

I had to wait until my 11th marathon to hit sub 3

You guys don't know how lucky you are. It took me 15 to break 3. :rolleyes:

liamo123

Dutchie wrote: »

Thanks Lads, I've been feeling strong in training as said before the Lactate profile testing really set me back. I'm hoping to do the half next Saturday sub 63 mins. After reading TFBubendorfer's excellent blog, anything can happen and usually does in the run-up and during the marathon. And this is coming from a veteran on 1 marathon All I want to do is break 3 hours aaaaaaaaaah.

As Thomas says sub 3 is well within ur grasp....Enjoy the half and hopefully ul hit ur projected time... I presume ur running DCM ? . If so my advice to u is simple ( worked for me anyway in 2010 ; 4th marathon ). Find the 3 hr pacers at the start and simply follow the lads around... Dont worry about ur watch, let them do the work..

If things get tough ( might happen around miles 20-22 ) dip deep and ease off a little but dont panic.. keep the pacers in view and hopefully ul get a 2nd wind and can make ur way back to them


On the other hand if ur feeling good push anywhere from Fosters Ave on as its flat from there to finish..


Best of luck.

Krusty_Clown

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

You guys don't know how lucky you are. It took me 15 to break 3. :rolleyes:

Maybe if you had incorporated some speed-work, it wouldn't have taken so long.

My progression was:
2008: Longford: 3:25
2009: Berlin: 3:00
2010: Barcelona: 2:55

There were a couple more marathons in there (three to be exact), but they were pacing or dossing.

menoscemo

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

You guys don't know how lucky you are. It took me 15 to break 3. :rolleyes:

Haha, my first 'attempt' will be my 19th marathon though that includes a fair few Pacing Gigs and Ultras.

My progression on the marathons I have raced so far has been:
DCM 2009: 4:15;
DCM 2010: 3:32;
Barcelona 2011: 3:24;
Berlin 2011: 3:26 (blow up going for 3:10)
Blackpool 2012: 3:10

In Berlin 2012 I will be shooting for low 3's, so it will likely be my 20+ marathon before I go sub 3, hopefully spring 2013.

EauRouge79

Berlin will be my 12th Marathon but 1st real attempt a sub 3.
Progress over the years as follows:
2007 - 3:45 (Dublin)
2008 - 3:21 (Berlin)
2009 - BABIES, SO NO RUNNING!
2010 - 3:14 (Cork)
2011 - 3:05 (Dublin)
2012- 3:06 (Connemara) (obvioulsy tougher course so i think progress has been made)

5 x 20+ mile LSR's for Berlin all between 7:20-7:30 pace.
Recent 5k: 17:55
5 Mile: 29:02

Im just looking for you all to tell me ill be fine! :rolleyes: