The Sub 3 Support Thread

Dutchie

KielyUnusual wrote: »

I'll be part of the pacing crew this year so I have one very firm target. I nearly feel more pressure than if I was racing.
Re: the marathon paced run a week out from the marathon. I agree with Rolex in saying that there's no great physical benefit from doing this. Last year, I did it before the Dublin Marathon when I was feeling in great shape and was confident I could do it comfortably. For London this year, I had more of a stretch goal so only ran a 6 mile MP run a week out. I sort of knew that a 10 mile would be a bit risky in regard to recovery.
I would just judge it from how your training has gone so far and how quickly you've been recovering between sessions. Best of luck in Dublin.

Talk about pressure KU, Fair play to you. One of the 3 hr pacers last year was in bits with cramp from 10m and afaik did not finish.

Your marathon times have been savage. Well done. See you on the line in DCM.

ainsyjnr

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Hi Ainsyjnr, I'm following the same plan (for the 2nd/3rd time). A couple of things you should be aware of:

1) The plans are written based on a US calendar (where the first day of the week is a Sunday). So typically, the Q1 session (19 mile with 15@pmp) should actually be done three weeks out, rather than two weeks out (with the Q1 taking place on a Sunday). Not to worry though, I'll be doing that exact session tomorrow, so no great harm in doing it two weeks out.

2) I reckon that the week 2 Q2 session is a typo or a cut and paste mistake. Specifically [2 x (35-40 mins easy, +15 to 20 mins T pace) + 2 miles easy]. For me that equates to a 22 mile session, with 7 miles @tempo pace, just 9/10 days out from your goal marathon. In my book, that's nuts. Looking at the elite plan, the equivalent session is far more manageable, so I'll be substituting that one in instead. It's: [2 Miles Easy + 3 x (2 Miles @Threshold with 2 mins easy) + 2 miles easy] = 10/11 miles.

It's a great plan and if you can get through all of those threshold sessions, sub-3 pace will feel like a breeze.

Thanks for the info Krusty,
Re. 1) I guess I missed that... Although I did wonder why my Q1 sessions were second in the week!

I think the extra 2 days over 2 weeks and the fact I have 6 weeks in phase 4 (which feels a lot easier than phase 3, almost a taper ) I should be mostly recovered. I have changed my session 7 days out based on your revelation, no tempo pace just 1.5 hour easy.

Re 2) I had spotted that and adjusted accordingly, it must be a typo as my 2 quality sessions were using up all my mileage for a 60% week.

I have tried a couple of different plans in the past; runners world and hal Higdon and this is by far the most interesting. My favourite session was 2 miles easy, 2 x 11min tempo with 2 min recovery then 80 mins easy, finishing off with 15 min tempo and 2 miles c/d. Quality!

Good luck with your goal Krusty, I imagine you'll be enjoying a pint before I cross the line!

BeepBeep67

61 year old aiming for his 200th sub 3 marathon :eek:
http://www.runnersworld.com/general-interest/61-year-old-aiming-for-200th-sub-300-marathon

rom

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

61 year old aiming for his 200th sub 3 marathon :eek:
http://www.runnersworld.com/general-interest/61-year-old-aiming-for-200th-sub-300-marathon

I am not a sub 3 runner yet but the following is much more impressive:

Kurtis has qualified for five Olympic marathon trials
finished an astonishing 76 marathons under 2:20
Kurtis completed 12 of those sub-2:20s in 1989

He ran his first sub-3:00 in April 1974 and his most recent in May 2013, a span of 39 years and 20 days.

WOW

I love this sport.

TFBubendorfer

rom wrote: »

I am not a sub 3 runner yet but the following is much more impressive:

Kurtis has qualified for five Olympic marathon trials
finished an astonishing 76 marathons under 2:20
Kurtis completed 12 of those sub-2:20s in 1989

He ran his first sub-3:00 in April 1974 and his most recent in May 2013, a span of 39 years and 20 days.

WOW

I love this sport.

Blimey, he's looking a lot older these days than he did 30 years ago

There was a great article by him in the latest issue of Marathon&Beyond about his 12 sub-2:20 marathons in one year. Very much worth reading, I found it highly inspiring.

Krusty_Clown

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

61 year old aiming for his 200th sub 3 marathon :eek:
http://www.runnersworld.com/general-interest/61-year-old-aiming-for-200th-sub-300-marathon

Multi-marathoning never appealed to me personally, but that guy is really inspirational.

BeepBeep67

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Multi-marathoning never appealed to me personally, but that guy is really inspirational.

Stay lucky out there man, not long to go.

Rolex_

Put the ghosts of Berlin 2012 to bed on Monday. A little over 2:56 and a 6+ minute PB.

Main differences:
Better nutrition (upped iron intake and ate better)
Avoided minor illness (probably due to better nutrition)
Similar overall mileage but more intensity (especially in the long runs) and more very easy running in the rest.
Enforced injury break last winter/spring meant it was 13 months between marathons and the body was probably the better for the break.
The intensity in the training got higher but felt easier week-on-week and I picked up a few nice PBs in shorter races along the way.

Looking forward to a nice rest now. Hope everyone else achieved their goals.

ainsyjnr

Congrats Rolex and to every one else who graduated from this thread.

I am newly considering myself a potential sub-3 er. However, I was taught a lesson in Dublin last week, fading to a painful 3:14 after being on for sub-3 till 19 miles. I think it would be a good idea to obtain a bit of assistance from those more experienced. My previous marathon experiences (all Dublin) are 2006 - 4:45 (woefully under-trained) and 2008 - 3:55 (after injury affected training)

Training had been going really well on JD Plan A and a 37:48 10 km in September suggested a sub 3 was on. I had originally been aiming for 3:10 but my race result paces on JDs chart were pointing to a better time. I hit the numbers in each session and had never missed a session. I maxed at 55 miles and had a 2 week taper. I ate and slept well. I went into the race with only a small niggle in my right foot from having my laces too tight on a 15 mile MP run 2 weeks earlier. my only doubt was a 1:25:30 HM in Ferns in late September (the last 3 miles were net uphill and into the wind) which was not fast enough.

I hit the wall at 22 miles after fading from 19 miles to 4:50 pace. I had read that carb loading wasn't about eating everything in sight, just replacing non-carbs with carbs so i was careful about that. however I think I was a bit light on food on Sunday as my day was interrupted with travelling etc. I took 6 gels during the race. I think I know where I went wrong with the nutrition, I just need to eat more the day before!

I have a place in the London marathon which I have been trying to get for ages and was thinking about a sub 3 attempt again. Is London a good place to attempt it? I will be starting in the sub 3:15 pen I think.

Should I try JD again but with higher mileage? I felt I was a bit light in the week on easy miles on top of my 2 sessions. Or should I try something different like the P&D 55>70 plan? Is it just late endurance I am missing and will more miles solve that or could the fading before the wall have been caused by the 15 mile MP run 2 weeks before?

Any thoughts are much appreciated.

Krusty_Clown

ainsyjnr wrote: »

I have a place in the London marathon which I have been trying to get for ages and was thinking about a sub 3 attempt again. Is London a good place to attempt it? I will be starting in the sub 3:15 pen I think.

Should I try JD again but with higher mileage? I felt I was a bit light in the week on easy miles on top of my 2 sessions. Or should I try something different like the P&D 55>70 plan? Is it just late endurance I am missing and will more miles solve that or could the fading before the wall have been caused by the 15 mile MP run 2 weeks before?

London will be fantastic for another crack at sub-3. Hard to say what stimuli will be required for you to hit your target. Sadly it's different for everyone, but your mileage seems extremely low for that specific plan, and relatively low for a sub-3 attempt(*). On that JD plan, nearly all of your weekly mileage would have been allocated to the two weekly quality sessions. What would your average mileage have been?

(*) Yes, I know, there are superheroes out there who managed it on just x miles per week, and your achievements will be carved into the great pantheons of marathon history, but just generally speaking, 55-60 miles per week is a pretty typical weekly mileage for a sub-3 goal.

ainsyjnr

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

What would your average mileage have been?

55-60 miles per week is a pretty typical weekly mileage for a sub-3 goal.[/SIZE]

My average not including taper was 42 miles. Based on the typical mileage I was undercooked.

I will crank up the miles for London then, if the family let me...
Thanks.

Is it worth changing the plan for the sake of change or better to stick to what you know? P&D and JD both have their merits as per the discussion in another thread but am I likely to get bored 12 weeks into the same programme?

Do others prefer to rotate plans to ensure different aspects are being developed?

drquirky

ainsyjnr wrote: »

My average not including taper was 42 miles. Based on the typical mileage I was undercooked.

I will crank up the miles for London then, if the family let me...
Thanks.

Is it worth changing the plan for the sake of change or better to stick to what you know? P&D and JD both have their merits as per the discussion in another thread but am I likely to get bored 12 weeks into the same programme?

Do others prefer to rotate plans to ensure different aspects are being developed?

Just looking at your times there- if you consistently run 55-60 miles I reckon you'll nail it no problem. You were just undertrained last time (as you said). Make sure you are getting in good (slow) long runs 20-24 miles as well

Rolex_

ainsyjnr wrote: »

Congrats Rolex and to every one else who graduated from this thread.

I have a place in the London marathon which I have been trying to get for ages and was thinking about a sub 3 attempt again. Is London a good place to attempt it? I will be starting in the sub 3:15 pen I think.

Should I try JD again but with higher mileage? I felt I was a bit light in the week on easy miles on top of my 2 sessions. Or should I try something different like the P&D 55>70 plan? Is it just late endurance I am missing and will more miles solve that or could the fading before the wall have been caused by the 15 mile MP run 2 weeks before?

Any thoughts are much appreciated.

Well done on what was still a big PB. You obviously have the pace - but not yet the endurance. I'd agree that your weekly mileage looks low- whether using Daniels or another programme you should probably be reaching mid-30s with just 2 quality runs per week- if your were only averaging low 40s would agree with KC not enough easy running done the rest of the week. Most sub-3 runners will be training at least 5 (and probably 6) days a week.

London is a great PB course and a super event- and training in the Spring is usually nice . Personally I prefer to try a different programme each time- otherwise boredeom sets in... but that's just me.

tunguska

ainsyjnr wrote: »

My average not including taper was 42 miles. Based on the typical mileage I was undercooked.

I will crank up the miles for London then, if the family let me...
Thanks.

Is it worth changing the plan for the sake of change or better to stick to what you know? P&D and JD both have their merits as per the discussion in another thread but am I likely to get bored 12 weeks into the same programme?

Do others prefer to rotate plans to ensure different aspects are being developed?

I'd be interested to have a look at your splits for DCM. It could be just a simple case of strategy that was your undoing.

ainsyjnr

tunguska wrote: »

I'd be interested to have a look at your splits for DCM. It could be just a simple case of strategy that was your undoing.

I was following the second 3hr pacer, my mile splits were:
6:40, 6:26; 6:38, 6:34; 6:42, 6:36, 6:15, 6:37, 6:48, 6:57, 6:46, 7:02 (Crumlin), 7:09, 7:11, 6:53, 6:54, 6:44, 6:53, 7:16 (19mile), 7:43, 8:05, 7:47, 8:36, 10:16, 10:13, 8:34

I felt it was too fast for me by about 12 miles and at 16 I was starting to break. The 3rd pacer came up alongside me at about 18 miles and I couldn't hold on. I tried to make time up on fosters avenue as I could see them in the distance but by UCD flyover my head (and legs) were in bits.

Krusty_Clown

ainsyjnr wrote: »

I was following the second 3hr pacer, my mile splits were:
6:40, 6:26; 6:38, 6:34; 6:42, 6:36, 6:15, 6:37, 6:48, 6:57, 6:46, 7:02 (Crumlin), 7:09, 7:11, 6:53, 6:54, 6:44, 6:53, 7:16 (19mile), 7:43, 8:05, 7:47, 8:36, 10:16, 10:13, 8:34

I felt it was too fast for me by about 12 miles and at 16 I was starting to break. The 3rd pacer came up alongside me at about 18 miles and I couldn't hold on. I tried to make time up on fosters avenue as I could see them in the distance but by UCD flyover my head (and legs) were in bits.

I wouldn't rely on your Garmin splits too much, as for some reason (US Army going to war?!) satellite accuracy seemed to be appalling for the early miles of the marathon. What were your official splits?

ainsyjnr

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

What were your official splits?

Here they are:

10km 00:41:50
1st-half 01:29:44
30km 02:19:05
Chip 03:14:40

menoscemo

ainsyjnr wrote: »

Here they are:

10km 00:41:50
1st-half 01:29:44
30km 02:19:05
Chip 03:14:40

I think the '30k' split was actually 20 miles (about 32.2k...)
In any case, it definitely loks like the first 10k were too fast (50 seconds up by my calculations) and a gradual slow down ensued afterwards. I know the first 10k ran quite fast last monday (my own pace group was 20sec up at this point), but perhaps for someone tight on sub 3, 50 seconds up might be a bit too much? (other lads would know better than me).

opus

Just to throw in my own recent experience, after doing a lot of mileage in the first half of the year for Comrades, I've scaled back a lot for the 2nd with just mostly easy running. Nonetheless I thought I might try running with the 3h pacers at the recent Dersden marathon as I really only needed to get under 3:20 for a handy Comrades qualifier for next year. Didn't expect to manage to stick with them but figured what was the worst that could happen?

Unfortunately there turned out to be no 3h pacers there So I ended up just doing my own thing and did the first half somewhat too fast and you guessed it payed the price in the 2nd half! The clock read less than 1:28 when I passed half-way & realised I was doomed at that stage!

End result was:

Hälfte 01:27:54
time total (netto) 03:04:34

dublin runner

ainsyjnr wrote: »

Here they are:

10km 00:41:50
1st-half 01:29:44
30km 02:19:05
Chip 03:14:40

Your 10k split was a bit fast alright (running with pacers?) like mine. But I don't think this is the reason for you not hitting your target. I think if you up the mileage you will comfortably break the 3-hours. Use the race as a lesson learnt and smash the 3-hours in your next marathon.

loughie

A PB of 3:01:26 for Dublin this year (for context, previous PB was 3:03:38 DCM10, last year 3:13:04 DCM12).

Ran 1:24:14 PB for Dublin Half so felt i merited a borderline crack at sub3.

Ran with the 3 hr pacer (3rd group starting out) who was spot on.
Splits:
First half 1:30:07
Second half 1:31:19

Stayed with the group until mile 23 and fell back by a little over 20 sec a mile for last 3 miles. Garmin packed in at mile 21 or so but it was clear the garmin was well off - 7 mile marker was 7.10 mile on Garmin.
Tried to dig in but the legs just tightened for all the will in the word i couldn't maintain the 3 hr pace.
Things I changed this year were joining a club and increasing mileage to 60 mile average weeks incl. more pmp and intervals.
Part of me wishes I ran a couple of minutes quicker in first half but then I know I could have risked blowing up sooner!
All in all was happy, especially with my splits, close as i have got to an even/neg. split for marathon.

So plan another crack in 2014, i have signed up for Berlin. So what to do differently......for next few months would like to get 10K, 10 mile times down and then gauge how i'm doing from that. Think I need at least 1:23 half! So here's to hoping for 2014!!

TFBubendorfer

loughie wrote: »

it was clear the garmin was well off - 7 mile marker was 7.10 mile on Garmin.

That's fairly normal, maybe a tad on the high side but definitely within the accuracy you can expect.

There is just no way round it, you will need to run 6:48 pace on the Garmin to hit sub-3 in the real world.

dublin runner

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

That's fairly normal, maybe a tad on the high side but definitely within the accuracy you can expect.

There is just no way round it, you will need to run 6:48 pace on the Garmin to hit sub-3 in the real world.

When the mile marks are reliable, like Dublin, would you recommend just a stopwatch? Used this myself and don't know if I'll go back to the Garmin. Think the modern day over reliance on Garmins can hinder races at times.

belcarra

dublin runner wrote: »

When the mile marks are reliable, like Dublin, would you recommend just a stopwatch? Used this myself and don't know if I'll go back to the Garmin. Think the modern day over reliance on Garmins can hinder races at times.

GPS watches should be used like Sat Nav systems on cars...use as an aid but always remain alert to surrounding conditions!

loughie

For the race I used my garmin as a stopwatch and a paceband from marathonguide. I'm familiar with the accuracy of garmin\gps. They usually measure my marathons at 26.5+ miles!

tunguska

ainsyjnr wrote: »

I was following the second 3hr pacer, my mile splits were:
6:40, 6:26; 6:38, 6:34; 6:42, 6:36, 6:15, 6:37, 6:48, 6:57, 6:46, 7:02 (Crumlin), 7:09, 7:11, 6:53, 6:54, 6:44, 6:53, 7:16 (19mile), 7:43, 8:05, 7:47, 8:36, 10:16, 10:13, 8:34

I felt it was too fast for me by about 12 miles and at 16 I was starting to break. The 3rd pacer came up alongside me at about 18 miles and I couldn't hold on. I tried to make time up on fosters avenue as I could see them in the distance but by UCD flyover my head (and legs) were in bits.

Im not having a go at pacers but Im just not a fan of letting somebody else dictate the pace for you. It does seem like you went off too fast and trying to hang onto the pacers blew you out. I think had you run your own race and not someones elses you would've nailed it. I think a 91/88 split would've done the job.

Q7

loughie wrote: »

So plan another crack in 2014, i have signed up for Berlin. So what to do differently......for next few months would like to get 10K, 10 mile times down and then gauge how i'm doing from that. Think I need at least 1:23 half! So here's to hoping for 2014!!

I think a sub 85min half should be enough for sub 3 attempt. You probably need to do more endurance training to get your sub 3 rather than trying to get another minute off your half time. Even splits are the way to go for the marathon - banking a few mins for the first half rarely works for borderline sub 3 attempts.
I only managed 1:28:XX for Dublin half in Sept (PB is 1:26) but got my first sub 3hr in DCM this year. Even splits just under 1:30 for each half. I know its the exception with a half of that time but I had the endurance training to keep the sub 3 pace especially in the last 6 miles.

TFBubendorfer

dublin runner wrote: »

When the mile marks are reliable, like Dublin, would you recommend just a stopwatch? Used this myself and don't know if I'll go back to the Garmin. Think the modern day over reliance on Garmins can hinder races at times.

Personally I find it easier to use the Garmin than the mile markers, but I always subtract 4 seconds per mile from the target pace.

I don't pace myself with the Garmin when I'm racing, though. It's on my wrist to measure, not to control my pace.

ainsyjnr

tunguska wrote: »

It does seem like you went off too fast and trying to hang onto the pacers blew you out. I think had you run your own race and not someones elses you would've nailed it.

I should learn from this. If I wasn't comfortable holding the pace at that time I should have had the confidence to back off. I may have felt better later to build up the pace again. I had ran with pacers for my first sub 90 HM so was hoping to just relax and use the help from the group. I think the difference then was that I comfortably came in under 90!

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

I don't pace myself with the Garmin when I'm racing, though. It's on my wrist to measure, not to control my pace.

Interesting, I only worked this out this year. I was using my garmin to control my pace in races and was always meeting my goal. It wasn't until I ran a few xc races by feel that I realised that the garmin had actually been holding me back... Still I paid too much attention to it during the DCM so I think I will adopt a different strategy next time.

ainsyjnr

Thanks for the feedback guys. The 'rough' plan for London 2014 sub-3 attempt is:
Run some Xc races and do club sessions until mid Jan, whilst building mileage to 55 mpw. Then start P&d 55-70 12 week plan to have the average mileage over 55mpw.

For the race, plan my food better the day before and breakfast. Monitor pace on garmin but check mile markers for actual pace. Finally, run my own race.

I saw KC had posted on two different approaches to marathons, 1) get so fast the MP feels easy and the hr stays low or 2) Log some serious miles so the endurance keeps you at pace until the end.

As someone who used to think 800m was 'long distance' I will be mainly aligning myself with approach 1, running fast is much more fun... (but potentially much more difficult at mile 23!)