The Sub 3 Support Thread

TFBubendorfer

ainsyjnr wrote: »

As someone who used to think 800m was 'long distance' I will be mainly aligning myself with approach 1, running fast is much more fun... (but potentially much more difficult at mile 23!)

You're forgetting that you should focus on your weaknesses, not the things you are already good at.

Running fast may be more fun for you, but you should focus on endurance for exactly that reason.

Krusty_Clown

ainsyjnr wrote: »

I saw KC had posted on two different approaches to marathons, 1) get so fast the MP feels easy and the hr stays low or 2) Log some serious miles so the endurance keeps you at pace until the end.

Well that was kind of the jist of it. In the first instance it is less of a training approach and more of a theory, that a 5k - 10 mile specialist could go out and run a very decent marathon on relatively low mileage (60-65mpw), because marathon pace is a comfortable pace for them (compared to their 5k - 10 mile pace). In this scenario I hypothesized that they could do just enough training to get them to the 20-22 mile mark and hang on to the finish. In this scenario they would also be very much under-selling themselves, as they would not have trained to their potential. But here I was referring to a runner who clocks up 60-70 mpw all year round, who can run 15:xx for 5k, rather than someone shooting for their first sub-3 marathon.

The second approach is called 'marathon training'! Specifically: taking whatever speed gains you have made across shorter distances and focussing on endurance and speed endurance to make sure you can cover the distance at the prescribed pace.

dekbhoy

Really interesting thread. I didnt train specifically for a 3 Hr marathon but quietly had my eye on it(went out with 3 Hr pacer to see if I could last) stayed with him until around 18 miles but couldn't sustain pace. Ended up finishing 3:09 but last 6 mile where horrendous . When I finished my confidence was shot and I thought a 3 Hr marathon was a pipe dream. Looking back I was lucky if I put in 30 miles per week . think its Time I changed my training programme drastically.

ainsyjnr

ainsyjnr wrote: »

I saw KC had posted on two different approaches to marathons, 1) get so fast the MP feels easy and the hr stays low or 2) Log some serious miles so the endurance keeps you at pace until the end.

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Well that was kind of the jist of it.

Apols KC I should have made it clearer I was paraphrasing what you had said, I didn't mean for you to have to re-explain it. Although it was helpful.

ainsyjnr wrote: »

As someone who used to think 800m was 'long distance' I will be mainly aligning myself with approach 1

I suppose what I meant was that I will have limited time to crank up the miles so therefore would need to make sure I am quicker than I am now, hence my aligning with option 1.

Before I started training for DCM 13 my highest week was about 30 miles and I had never got above 45 miles without injury, so to do a few 55 mile weeks before DCM was new territory. I am therefore dubious about my body's ability to run over 55 miles on average, peaking at 70, let alone anything more. I have heard and read lots to support that getting quicker over shorter distances improves race times in endurance events so I think I will need to bring some speed into my buildup as well.

I would in fact be doing a bit of both by building my average mileage up from 42 mpw to 60 mpw but also trying to make myself a more 'efficient' runner over the next few months before that, rather than just solely working on endurance.

I think a bit of freedom over the next few months is what I need as I can't face starting another 24 week JD schedule any time soon. Hopefully a bit of 'fun', with one eye on building my weekly mileage followed by a higher mileage 12 week P&D schedule should put me in a stronger position come April than I was for DCM.

If that fails then I will have to face facts and add even more mileage, the body should be in a better position to accept it by then! But I'm not sure if the family will

tunguska

ainsyjnr wrote: »

I think a bit of freedom over the next few months is what I need as I can't face starting another 24 week JD schedule any time soon. Hopefully a bit of 'fun', with one eye on building my weekly mileage followed by a higher mileage 12 week P&D schedule should put me in a stronger position come April than I was for DCM.

If that fails then I will have to face facts and add even more mileage, the body should be in a better position to accept it by then! But I'm not sure if the family will

Bouncing from one marathon to another isnt the best way to improve your base line speed. Why not focus on your short game for now and forget about another marathon until this time next year. That way you'll have a good whack at the 5 - 15k stuff which you could use as a foundation for an autumn marathon.

ainsyjnr

tunguska wrote: »

Bouncing from one marathon to another isnt the best way to improve your base line speed. Why not focus on your short game for now and forget about another marathon until this time next year. That way you'll have a good whack at the 5 - 15k stuff which you could use as a foundation for an autumn marathon.

You make a good point, time is a bit tight after recovering from one marathon before starting quality training for the next. Realistically how much am i going to improve my base line speed in just a few weeks! Probably not much when I also want to increase my mileage.

I think I would be better suited to concentrate on upping my mileage only. I have the speed but endurance was the problem so this course of action seems most suitable. As KC put it...i'll do some 'Marathon Training' And as Thomas noted, I should concentrate on my weaknesses. Thanks lads, it took some time, but the message finally got through.

I'll let you know how I am getting on.

ps. I can't skip London next year, I've been trying for ages to get into it and everything is booked!

Rolex_

ainsyjnr wrote: »

You make a good point, time is a bit tight after recovering from one marathon before starting quality training for the next. Realistically how much am i going to improve my base line speed in just a few weeks! Probably not much when I also want to increase my mileage.

I think I would be better suited to concentrate on upping my mileage only. I have the speed but endurance was the problem so this course of action seems most suitable. As KC put it...i'll do some 'Marathon Training' And as Thomas noted, I should concentrate on my weaknesses. Thanks lads, it took some time, but the message finally got through.

I'll let you know how I am getting on.

ps. I can't skip London next year, I've been trying for ages to get into it and everything is booked!

Why don't you do London as a "Tourist Marathon"? i.e. Go there fit but not chasing a PB. Start easy ( at least a minute a mile slower than you would race it) to dispel any last minute ideas about chasing a PB. Pick the pace up very gradually and run a big negative split. You'll be passing runners the whole way home and you can truly savour the brilliant atmosphere in London.

I followed that plan in Dublin last year having raced Berlin (badly) the month before. It was the most enjoyable marathon I have done by a distance. Ran a 6 minute negative split and really enjoyed the day.

Having got the sub-3 box ticked in Dublin last month (2:56) I'm going to have another "tourist" marathon in Boston before giving an Autumn marathon a serious lash.

ainsyjnr

Rolex_ wrote: »

Why don't you do London as a "Tourist Marathon"? i.e. Go there fit but not chasing a PB. Start easy ( at least a minute a mile slower than you would race it) to dispel any last minute ideas about chasing a PB. Pick the pace up very gradually and run a big negative split. You'll be passing runners the whole way home and you can truly savour the brilliant atmosphere in London.

I followed that plan in Dublin last year having raced Berlin (badly) the month before. It was the most enjoyable marathon I have done by a distance. Ran a 6 minute negative split and really enjoyed the day.

Having got the sub-3 box ticked in Dublin last month (2:56) I'm going to have another "tourist" marathon in Boston before giving an Autumn marathon a serious lash.

That's definitely something to consider. I'll see how things are going in the build up. Another option is to run it easier and aim for a gfa time. Then use the next 12 months to work on speed and got for it again in 2015.

The first thing I need to achieve is to make the distance without blowing up! 3 marathons and 3 walls hit. Starting a bit slower and doing a negative split may be just what I need to accomplish that.

ThePiedPiper

Ainsyjnr,

If the endurance over 20 miles is your downfall in marathons, you should focus on that massively in your training. A couple of years ago, after I think my 10th marathon (with only 1 negative split), I targeted endurance in the tail end of the marathon by pushing the longest run out to 23 miles, and focusing on fast, MP miles in the tail end of the long run, as well as doing one or two long runs on tired legs. It worked well for me, with a 2 minute negative split and first sub-3 on marathon #11.

The slow start has worked very well for me in 2 of my sub-3 efforts. In my first one, Mile #1 was clocked at 7:50, with the average after that being 6:43 I think, and in the most recent one, the first three miles were MP+30, MP + 20, MP+10, before settling in at MP-5 for most of the rest (apart from 25&26!!!)

Jmcmen

Any advise on what pace one should be targeting for running 1mile interval repeats at? And What kind of number repeats should you be building to?

Also Tempo run pace, and distance. Was reckoning tempo pace should be about 6:40

Only in the infancy of my sub3 training and want to get it right

Thanks in advance

ecoli

Jmcmen wrote: »

Any advise on what pace one should be targeting for running 1mile interval repeats at? And What kind of number repeats should you be building to?

Also Tempo run pace, and distance. Was reckoning tempo pace should be about 6:40

Only in the infancy of my sub3 training and want to get it right

Thanks in advance

What kind of mileage are you running now? How long are you running? What kind of PBs do you have at the moment?

Set your paces around your current fitness not your target one

Jmcmen

Cheers Ecoli

Have done 9 marathons to date. Never done serious training for them, only the bare minimum between playing football. Had done some good work coming up to Barcelona last March but I had a horrible week before with no sleep and alot of stress due to family reasons. Went out too far to fast and paid for it in last 10km and came in with 3:14. Ran with emotion instead of the head.

Entered Dublin this year more for the run around as I really enjoyed the previous year and did 3.13(7 days after I ran the Amsterdam Marathon). Had done minimal training, got married, honeymoon, 3 stags and 2 other weddings in the 9 weeks before DCM. Lined up and felt good so I said I would run as fast as I could and see how I could push it and use it as a learning curve. Was with the 3:10 lads up to mile 20 then had to let them go. Dragged myself home in 3.27 after one and a bit of the most horrible hours of running I have ever had to endure.

finished up playing GAA now too so want to give it a serious crack. Might not get there but will give it a good proper go. I may sound mental but both of the above have gave me heart that I can do it.

Trying to drop the pounds and get faster too. Been doing 1mile intervals at 6:20min pace with 3min rest in between.

Did a 10km a couple of weeks back and clocked a 38:45min

I have alot to do I know, may not get there but looking forward to the challenge.

Would appreciate any pearls of wisdom.

Ta

ecoli

My advice would be to take a step back on the mile reps and tempo runs for 6-8 weeks and focus on your aerobic capacity as this is where you look to be lacking. The focus should be on getting your body strong enough to be able to handle the training and getting the most benefit from it.

Spend the next 6-8 weeks doing no sessions but rather aim to build your mileage up to the point where you are running roughly 5-6 days a week and 40-50 miles a week consistently. This should be done in a progressive manner and not just jumped into. My advice would be not to raise your mileage by more than one mile per run per week (this would give you a 5-6 mile increased week on week which is plenty).

Initially you may feel tired off this increase as it will take your body some time to adjust the paces. Don't be afraid to slow your runs down a little if needed. You should feel comfortably tired as a week goes on but not anticipating your next rest day with sheer delight due to exhaustion.

Once a week up the pace to steady effort which I tend to advocate as half way between Easy and (Current) Marathon pace so for example;

Your MP is 7.20-7.30
Easy Pace normally 8.30 - 9 min
Steady pace would be 7.50-8 min

These should be as by end of these you should feel like you are working but that you could continue for another few miles if needed.

On top of this keep one run of 10-12 miles as well as one run as a short recovery run.

Your other two easy days should be finished up with 6-8*60-100m strides. The length doesn't have to be exact and just stride them at 3k to 5k pace as this should help with leg turnover and running efficiency. Some approaches alternate these with hill efforts of 8-12 seconds. In both cases the recovery should be substantial (i.e up to 2 min) as these are not about fitness but rather leg turnover and running economy.

After the 6-8 weeks you will see improvement but more importantly your body will be prepared to start more specific training if you plan on a Spring marathon.

You must train your body to be able to train before you start on the specific work (this is a template I would use for any aerobic event from 1500m to the marathon and is one which will yield major benefits long term)

rom

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Personally I find it easier to use the Garmin than the mile markers, but I always subtract 4 seconds per mile from the target pace.

I don't pace myself with the Garmin when I'm racing, though. It's on my wrist to measure, not to control my pace.

Or set the Garmin to autolap at 1.01 miles.

Krusty_Clown

rom wrote: »

Or set the Garmin to autolap at 1.01 miles.

The problem is that sometimes the Garmin will cut a course short (which is why so many people complain about short courses (this happens more typically when travelling around a corner with some tree cover)), while other times it will measure a course long. As long as the mile-markers are known to be true, the only accurate way of establishing your pace/progress accurately is to use a pace band and a stop-watch (unless you have a Jones counter and a bicycle handy, in which case, you're probably cheating).

Badreputation

Great thread with a lot of info. Only half way through reading it but was looking for some help!

Starting week after next on JD A plan 18wks. Plan to hit 70/75miles peak.Was just looking for some advice. I am planning the Q1 & Q2 sessions on Wed and Sat of each week (sat for Q1 with the long runs and MP runs).
I plan to run easy/recovery miles on Tues/Thurs/Fri around the Q sessions. Hope to do am & pm runs to build mileage here. Take Sun off or use it for easy miles on weeks I need to peak.
On the Monday of each week the club use the track for miles repeats/interval sessions. Would it be wise to include this session? Usually 5-6 1ml repeats. Or is a tempo session/MP session a better idea on Mondays? Or have I the structure right overall?

Thanks in advance

Krusty_Clown

Badreputation wrote: »

Great thread with a lot of info. Only half way through reading it but was looking for some help!

Starting week after next on JD A plan 18wks. Plan to hit 70/75miles peak.Was just looking for some advice. I am planning the Q1 & Q2 sessions on Wed and Sat of each week (sat for Q1 with the long runs and MP runs).
I plan to run easy/recovery miles on Tues/Thurs/Fri around the Q sessions. Hope to do am & pm runs to build mileage here. Take Sun off or use it for easy miles on weeks I need to peak.
On the Monday of each week the club use the track for miles repeats/interval sessions. Would it be wise to include this session? Usually 5-6 1ml repeats. Or is a tempo session/MP session a better idea on Mondays? Or have I the structure right overall?

Thanks in advance

Hi Badreputation, sounds like you have the structure right, but I reckon trying to squeeze in a third session (the club session) in a week will be too taxing, if that's what you were proposing? You could certainly substitute some of the JD quality sessions for the club sessions if they were a close match. For example, there are a number of 5x1 mile, 6 x 1 mile, 2 x 2 mile type sessions in the JD plan. Just make sure to leave a sufficient gap from the longer/harder JD sessions, such as the 15 miles @mp, or some of the other sessions that include tempo sections that can add up to 20-22 miles.

By the way, maxing out on 70-75 miles per week, you may find that most of your week's mileage will be made up of the two quality sessions. There are only three weeks of 100% mileage, so perhaps you could consider raising your max mileage to 80 miles per week?

For example week 18 (7 weeks to marathon), is a 70% mileage week (in your case: 49 miles). The two sessions that week are: 19 miles + 12 miles = 31 miles. That'll leave you 18 miles to spread across the remaining 5 days. Don't get too fixated on which day of the week you're going to run the sessions on. Be flexible base don how you are feeling and how much rest you need, and don't be afraid to swap around the two sessions if it makes more sense to do so.

Badreputation

Tks for that KC. Appreciate your thoughts as you are the resident expert on it at this stage.:)
I have Dungarvan and Ballycotton in my schedule as well so I plan to just drop one of the Q sessions that week.
Its going to be a tough ask but Ill give it everything over the next few months & hopefully the body will hold up.
Thanks again

viperlogic

I may give this sub 3hr marathon a go for the Limerick Marathon this year. History so far....

Dublin City Marathon 2012
- Training plan: Hal Higdon Novice
- Goal: 3:30
- Result: 4:16:11
Was on target (hit half at 1:45:38) until around mile 16 when I had a slight speed wobble and over stretched my IT band to hobble home for a 4:16:11

Cork City Marathon 2013
- Training plan: Hal Higdon Novice
- Goal: 3:25
- Result: 3:34:34
Was on target until around mile 18 when the heat and humidity began to soar and so did my HR so had to back off.

Waterford Marathon 2013 - 4 weeks later, determined to break 3:30!
- Training plan: Hal Higdon Novice
- Goal: 3:25
- Result: 3:28:13 (Garmin was 3:26:29 - course was 400m too long)
Was on target but lost a bit of time from the hills in Tramore

Dublin City Marathon 2013
- Training plan: FIRST with extra runs
- Goal: 3:05
- Result: didn't run
Training was go very well and was on target. First time doing speed work and the results were amazing. Getting PB after PB in 5K, 4M, 5M, 8K, 10K races. Unfortunately got a cold at end of September and couldn't get rid of it for weeks. Missed too many runs so said I will save myself for a future attempt.

And so here I am now. Ran a 64:50 yesterday (avg HR of 170, 92% of Max) in John Treacy Dungarvan 10 mile. Aiming to do the Limerick Marathon in May but not going to set my heart on a sub 3hr. Will see how training goes and that I can avoid sickness. I'm following the JD Plan A training program.

So with my current result, is sub 3hr reasonable in 14 weeks?

Krusty_Clown

viperlogic wrote: »

So with my current result, is sub 3hr reasonable in 14 weeks?

Have you already started the plan? At this stage you should probably be at around week 5/6? While the 10 mile might suggest you're pretty close (did you train specifically for the 10 mile race?), I'd reserve judgement until you hit that 12/13 mile marathon pace session, which is 10 weeks out from your goal marathon.

When training for DCM13, what were your 10k and 5k pbs?

Clearlier

viperlogic wrote: »

So with my current result, is sub 3hr reasonable in 14 weeks?

Borderline I'd say. Very doable but you'll need to improve your speed a little and your endurance needs a bit of work too. What's your mileage like compared to previous programmes?

See how your training goes but unless it goes really well you're probably looking at something just marginally over the 3 hours if you pace it correctly. Good training and a good day could change that though.

TFBubendorfer

viperlogic wrote: »

So with my current result, is sub 3hr reasonable in 14 weeks?

64:50 doesn't scream sub-3 to me. It's not completely out of the question but it's a big ask!

viperlogic

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Have you already started the plan? At this stage you should probably be at around week 5/6? While the 10 mile might suggest you're pretty close (did you train specifically for the 10 mile race?), I'd reserve judgement until you hit that 12/13 mile marathon pace session, which is 10 weeks out from your goal marathon.

When training for DCM13, what were your 10k and 5k pbs?

5K was 18:55 and 10K was 40 (off top of my head). Started marathon training in first week of January

Clearlier wrote: »

Borderline I'd say. Very doable but you'll need to improve your speed a little and your endurance needs a bit of work too. What's your mileage like compared to previous programmes?

See how your training goes but unless it goes really well you're probably looking at something just marginally over the 3 hours if you pace it correctly. Good training and a good day could change that though.

Mileage is up on previous programs but not very high as I cycle also, hence used the FIRST program for DCM 13 (~ran 35 miles per week).

I'm currently upping the mileage slowly as I really need to get it up to ~50 miles per week.

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

64:50 doesn't scream sub-3 to me. It's not completely out of the question but it's a big ask!

As you say, I will re-asses again in a 6 weeks time to see how I'm progressing. I have given myself the goal of sub 3 in Amsterdam this year, if all goes well and on the day and I get it in Limerick then that's a bonus but will set my expectations closer to the event.

Clearlier

viperlogic wrote: »

Mileage is up on previous programs but not very high as I cycle also, hence used the FIRST program for DCM 13 (~ran 35 miles per week).

I'm currently upping the mileage slowly as I really need to get it up to ~50 miles per week.

Everything points towards 3:00 - 3:05 at the moment but you're right to look at reassessing in 6 weeks time. The extra miles will definitely help and may be the tipping point but in the longer term it's your measured approach that will stand to you and if you don't get sub-3 this time your slow and steady increase in training load approach should see you there in the autumn.

belcarra

The extra mileage will hugely benefit you no doubt.
Also, if you maintain your training consistency all the way to Amsterdam and continue to see the PBs tumble throughout the year you could have a decent chance.
But you will probably know the trend by mid Summer and if it is possible or not.

So I think you have the right attitude - Train for Sub-3 anyways and it's all in the bank for next Spring if it doesn't happen this year!*

* These are thoughts of a runner with a similar goal as you but still just over 20 mins off sub 3, so feel free to disregard!!

Krusty_Clown

viperlogic wrote: »

I'm currently upping the mileage slowly as I really need to get it up to ~50 miles per week.

That is very low mileage for the JD Plan A. To put it into perspective, on week 20 (5 weeks to go), after you do the two quality sessions, you'll have three miles left to spread out over the course of the rest of the week.

Badreputation

Have a question re-gels/fueling. I haven't taken any yet as part of the training. Just sticking to water on long runs. When would be the best time to start? Is it better to train without them until the 22m runs/closer to the marathon? Is there a benefit in using them sooner on 13m/15m MP runs or is it better to avoid them until its necessary? I know it might be a personal choice but would be interested to know at what stage you would start using them during your training.
Tks in advance

Clearlier

Badreputation wrote: »

Have a question re-gels/fueling. I haven't taken any yet as part of the training. Just sticking to water on long runs. When would be the best time to start? Is it better to train without them until the 22m runs/closer to the marathon? Is there a benefit in using them sooner on 13m/15m MP runs or is it better to avoid them until its necessary? I know it might be a personal choice but would be interested to know at what stage you would start using them during your training.
Tks in advance

In general you take gels in training in order to test how your stomach tolerates gels. I wouldn't take them with the aim of enhancing training. With that in mind I'd try one a few months out during a long run so that you have plenty of time to try different types of gels if you have any difficulties. Maybe during a long run with a shorter marathon pace segment if you were following P&D.

ecoli

Badreputation wrote: »

Have a question re-gels/fueling. I haven't taken any yet as part of the training. Just sticking to water on long runs. When would be the best time to start? Is it better to train without them until the 22m runs/closer to the marathon? Is there a benefit in using them sooner on 13m/15m MP runs or is it better to avoid them until its necessary? I know it might be a personal choice but would be interested to know at what stage you would start using them during your training.
Tks in advance

First time running the marathon properly myself so its an aspect which I have little experience. What I have been doing is trying different gels on my long runs to see which sits best with me. Up until now I have only been taking one gel on a long run but as I make my choice I will start to incorporate them into my longer runs (have it narrowed down to two gels I think at this stage)

RayCun

ecoli wrote: »

Up until now I have only been taking one gel on a long run but as I make my choice I will start to incorporate them into my longer runs (have it narrowed down to two gels I think at this stage)

Do you plan to take gels on every run once you make your choice, and take multiple gels?