The Sub 3 Support Thread

viperlogic

Tested a few and found the high5 energy plus ones work best for me. On race day, I take one at 1hour in and then every 30mins. Will only bring them on a LSR that is 2hours or more

ecoli

RayCun wrote: »

Do you plan to take gels on every run once you make your choice, and take multiple gels?

Probably take one on long easy runs and possibly multiples (2-3) on long sessions i.e +18 miles at steady or faster paces just to ensure that stomach tolerates them correctly

BeepBeep67

Running my long runs empty at the moment to get the body used to burning fat as an energy source, will start introducing gels 6 weeks out and for Donedea.

ThePiedPiper

Good strategy BeepBeep67. I wouldn't recommend it too highly, as it might be a bit risky, but I would also do the odd long run in a dehydrated state as well to prepare your body for the state it is in in the tail end of the marathon..

Gringo78

I wouldn't be a great fan of experimenting too much with gels on a long run - stomach trouble could really wreck a long run and they're tough enough to schedule to get out and do without f**king it up unneccesarily. Do a 90min Run midweek taking a gel every 15min from the start and that'll sort out if your stomach can tolerate them. Just because it doesn't from the get go doesn't mean you can't stomach them - the stomach can be trained to tolerate anything just by week on week repeating it.

RayCun

Gringo78 wrote: »

Do a 90min Run midweek taking a gel every 15min from the start and that'll sort out if your stomach can tolerate them.

:eek:
I've never had trouble with gels before, so I might just try
one on a regular long run as a reminder
one in Bohermeen to make sure I'm still okay with them at race pace

but in general I'm trying to do the longer runs on empty rather than get into the habit of taking gels

ThePiedPiper

Dunno about trying one in half marathon, for me, there's a world of difference between what I could handle at MP to HMP... unless that is you're doing the half as a MP run..

RJM85

Hi,

Hoping some of the experienced runners in this thread might be able to give me some advice. I'm 28 male, did my first marathon in 2013 (DCM) with a time of 03:20:05. I'm hoping to either go sub 3 this year, or at least get significantly closer. I've been running for a little over 3 years at this stage having started to lose weight (went from 17.5st to a little over 11st now).
I was very disappointed with my time after DCM 2013 having thought I was able for at least 3:10. This year my big goal is to give a proper account of myself!

Couple of things I identified as places I went wrong last year were:
- spent the first half of the year focussed on cycling, only getting in 20 miles of running per week up to June or so. So far (since November / December ish) I've aimed to get at least 40 miles per week.
- I had weight to lose. I did DCM at roughly 12st 4lbs; I've dropped a stone since then, and I'm hoping to get down to something approaching 'race weight' of under 11st.
- Possible lack of endurance / speed endurance. My running PB's seem to get 'worse' as the distances go up. I'm guessing that weight loss might help this, but I also thought that maybe increasing my long run mileage might help? Last year my longest run was 20 miles - thinking 3 x 22 for this year.
- I got a cold a couple of days out from the marathon - not much I could do about it, but I think eating right and looking after myself might hopefully avoid a repeat.

My PBs are:
5k 17:52
10k 38:10
HM 1:25:24
Mara 03:20:05

As I understand it, I have the speed (or thereabouts) over shorter distances to suggest that I could pull off a sub 3 given the right preparation etc.

I've done up a draft training plan for myself based on bits and pieces cobbled together from here and there and also what I think will be manageable given work and family commitments. Obviously, DCM is 38 weeks away, so I have plenty of time before the real focussed training starts, but I want to put myself in the best possible position. Between now & 18 weeks out (when I've started my draft plan) I'm planning some cycle races and some duathlon / triathlons. However, I'm planning on prioritising my run training and ensuring I'm there or thereabouts on 40 miles per week.

I'd love if anyone would cast an eye over the plan and give some pointers / suggestions.

Thanks.

ArtieFufkin

Your times would actually be very similar to mine but my times are just a little bit faster. My only advice is that you really need to get the high mileage in coming up to race day. I haven't done a sub 3 marathon but I should be able to on the right day and so should you. Given that you are lighter than you were last time I think it's within your grasp. Just pace yourself correctly during the race and make sure you get the right nutrition/gels.

My next race is an ultra so my sub 3 marathon will have to wait

menoscemo

Just looking at your plan; you have 4 hard workouts every week.
Tempo Tuesday, Intervals thursday, MP saturday and Long Run sunday.
That's way too much 'quality' miles for a plan peaking at just over 60 mpw. I doubt even guys running 110+ per week would run that many sessions.

I think you can focus on 5-10k work in the for a few months but then from 10 weeks out focus almost exclusively on HMP-MP running. A quality session midweek and a Long run is probably all you need. Otherwise do plenty of strides/hill sprints and try to max out your mileage doing plenty of easy running.

viperlogic

On topic of race weight, is there a calculator for this or ? I'm 6'1 and 82KG/180lbs at present

Clearlier

RJM85 wrote: »

Hi,

Hoping some of the experienced runners in this thread might be able to give me some advice. I'm 28 male, did my first marathon in 2013 (DCM) with a time of 03:20:05. I'm hoping to either go sub 3 this year, or at least get significantly closer. I've been running for a little over 3 years at this stage having started to lose weight (went from 17.5st to a little over 11st now).
I was very disappointed with my time after DCM 2013 having thought I was able for at least 3:10. This year my big goal is to give a proper account of myself!

Couple of things I identified as places I went wrong last year were:
- spent the first half of the year focussed on cycling, only getting in 20 miles of running per week up to June or so. So far (since November / December ish) I've aimed to get at least 40 miles per week.
- I had weight to lose. I did DCM at roughly 12st 4lbs; I've dropped a stone since then, and I'm hoping to get down to something approaching 'race weight' of under 11st.
- Possible lack of endurance / speed endurance. My running PB's seem to get 'worse' as the distances go up. I'm guessing that weight loss might help this, but I also thought that maybe increasing my long run mileage might help? Last year my longest run was 20 miles - thinking 3 x 22 for this year.
- I got a cold a couple of days out from the marathon - not much I could do about it, but I think eating right and looking after myself might hopefully avoid a repeat.

My PBs are:
5k 17:52
10k 38:10
HM 1:25:24
Mara 03:20:05

As I understand it, I have the speed (or thereabouts) over shorter distances to suggest that I could pull off a sub 3 given the right preparation etc.

I've done up a draft training plan for myself based on bits and pieces cobbled together from here and there and also what I think will be manageable given work and family commitments. Obviously, DCM is 38 weeks away, so I have plenty of time before the real focussed training starts, but I want to put myself in the best possible position. Between now & 18 weeks out (when I've started my draft plan) I'm planning some cycle races and some duathlon / triathlons. However, I'm planning on prioritising my run training and ensuring I'm there or thereabouts on 40 miles per week.

I'd love if anyone would cast an eye over the plan and give some pointers / suggestions.

Thanks.

There's not enough progression in your plan. Your long run and MP are fine but the intervals and tempo runs don't change. As Meno said you have too many tough runs in the week and your taper looks too severe. It's not essential but given that endurance is your biggest issue you'd benefit from a longer midweek run if you can fit it in.

You seem like an ideal candidate for the plans in the book 'Advanced Marathoning' by Pete Pftizinger and Scott Douglas. They have several plans but the one that you should target is the 18 week 55-70 (miles) plan. It's only slightly more miles than what you have but the overall training load will be lower as there aren't as many intense sessions and if you read the whole book you'll get a good idea of the different types of runs that go into putting a plan together.

If you were able to follow the 55-70 plan I'd be astonished if you didn't go under 3 hours.

menoscemo

Clearlier wrote: »

There's not enough progression in your plan. Your long run and MP are fine but the intervals and tempo runs don't change. As Meno said you have too many tough runs in the week and your taper looks too severe. It's not essential but given that endurance is your biggest issue you'd benefit from a longer midweek run if you can fit it in.

You seem like an ideal candidate for the plans in the book 'Advanced Marathoning' by Pete Pftizinger and Scott Douglas. They have several plans but the one that you should target is the 18 week 55-70 (miles) plan. It's only slightly more miles than what you have but the overall training load will be lower as there aren't as many intense sessions and if you read the whole book you'll get a good idea of the different types of runs that go into putting a plan together.

If you were able to follow the 55-70 plan I'd be astonished if you didn't go under 3 hours.

I agree, was going to suggest P&D after i'd written my own post. I even think he'd go sub 3 with the 55 mile week Plan but the 55-70 would be ideal..

opus

viperlogic wrote: »

On topic of race weight, is there a calculator for this or ? I'm 6'1 and 82KG/180lbs at present

Check out Fellrnr's calculator - http://fellrnr.com/wiki/VDOT_Calculator

viperlogic

opus wrote: »

Check out Fellrnr's calculator - http://fellrnr.com/wiki/VDOT_Calculator

Thanks. I'm a regular reader and user of Jonathan's page. He does show the potential impact of performance to a certain weight but doesn't show what race weight is. I understand it is difficult to determine as everyone's build is different. Maybe someone has a guide on percentage body fat?

statss

viperlogic wrote: »

Thanks. I'm a regular reader and user of Jonathan's page. He does show the potential impact of performance to a certain weight but doesn't show what race weight is. I understand it is difficult to determine as everyone's build is different. Maybe someone has a guide on percentage body fat?

I was advised previously to try and get to <10% body fat.

RayCun

viperlogic wrote: »

On topic of race weight, is there a calculator for this or ? I'm 6'1 and 82KG/180lbs at present

http://www.serpentine.org.uk/pages/advice_frank02.html

Dr Stillman's height/weight ratio table. He fixes the non-active man's average weight for height with a simple formula. He allocates 110lbs (56.2kg) for the first five feet (1.524m) in height and 5 1/2lbs (2.296kg) for every inch (0.025m) thereafter. He is harsher with women, giving them 100lbs (45.3kg) for the first five feet and 5lbs (2.268kg) for every inch above this.

Having established the average, he then speculates on the ideal weight for athletic performance, as follows:
Sprinters (100-400m): 2½ per cent lighter than average (6ft/176lbs - 2½% = 4lbs)
Hurdlers (100-400m): 6 per cent lighter (or 9lbs) Middle-distance runners (800m - 10K): 12 per cent lighter (or 19lbs)
Long-distance runners (10 miles onwards): 15 per cent lighter (or 25½lbs)

Which puts me about a stone overweight, so must be wrong

RJM85

Thanks folks - exactly what I was looking for. I'll pick up the P&D book during the week and take it from there.

Jmcmen

How ya all,
Been going well in 2014 so far. getting the miles in and not missing many if any sessions a week.
I had kind of postponed a Sub 3 attempt until the summer to give me more time and go for 3:05-3:10 in Paris in 5 weeks time.
But I ran Carlingford HM on Saturday and made it home in 1:21.41, Albeit the course may have been a min short or so. Gave it a good rattle and Felt good after. More importantly it has given me renewed belief in my training and dieting as I can see definite progress.
I am tempted to give it another 3 weeks hard miles before Paris marathon, 2 weeks good taper, and throw caution to the wind and go for it.
Am I mad? Or am I even in the right ball park?
Any advise welcome from the Wise and Wonderful?
Thanks again

Krusty_Clown

Jmcmen wrote: »

How ya all,
Been going well in 2014 so far. getting the miles in and not missing many if any sessions a week.
I had kind of postponed a Sub 3 attempt until the summer to give me more time and go for 3:05-3:10 in Paris in 5 weeks time.
But I ran Carlingford HM on Saturday and made it home in 1:21.41, Albeit the course may have been a min short or so. Gave it a good rattle and Felt good after. More importantly it has given me renewed belief in my training and dieting as I can see definite progress.
I am tempted to give it another 3 weeks hard miles before Paris marathon, 2 weeks good taper, and throw caution to the wind and go for it.
Am I mad? Or am I even in the right ball park?
Any advise welcome from the Wise and Wonderful?
Thanks again

Sounds like you're certainly in the ball-park. Do you have any marathon pace sessions planned over the next few weeks? It would be an idea to get some miles at the target pace and see how it feels (e.g. 18 miles with 12 @MP).

Jmcmen

I have 3 Long runs penciled in to complete on the next 3 Fridays. Was hoping to do 3no 20m+ runs. Should I factor the pace miles into those runs or maybe a midweek medium run?

BeepBeep67

Jmcmen wrote: »

I have 3 Long runs penciled in to complete on the next 3 Fridays. Was hoping to do 3no 20m+ runs. Should I factor the pace miles into those runs or maybe a midweek medium run?

Sounds like you are in great shape to go under 3.
Stick those MP specific miles into your long run, not every week, every 2nd or 3rd.

Jmcmen

Thanks very much BeepBeep and Krusty. All advise and Encouragement is gratefully received

iancairns

Jmcmen wrote: »

How ya all,
Been going well in 2014 so far. getting the miles in and not missing many if any sessions a week.
I had kind of postponed a Sub 3 attempt until the summer to give me more time and go for 3:05-3:10 in Paris in 5 weeks time.
But I ran Carlingford HM on Saturday and made it home in 1:21.41, Albeit the course may have been a min short or so. Gave it a good rattle and Felt good after. More importantly it has given me renewed belief in my training and dieting as I can see definite progress.
I am tempted to give it another 3 weeks hard miles before Paris marathon, 2 weeks good taper, and throw caution to the wind and go for it.
Am I mad? Or am I even in the right ball park?
Any advise welcome from the Wise and Wonderful?
Thanks again

Hey, i'm also heading over for Paris Marathon! Your HM pace is amazing and well inside what you need to run sub 3hrs i would have thought??

Did you break a PB with your HM?

My last HM was 1:31 but reckon i could get to about 1:27 now after recent training.

Your target 3:10 is what i'm also hoping for.

Did a 20miler last week including Howth hill and did in 7min08 per mile which was delighted with so hoping i can keep that pace for another 6 miles! Eek!

You say also gonna do another 3 x 20milers?

Which will be your last one? I was only thinking of one on weekend of 15th March. Do you reckon 2 weeks is enough time to taper?

Is a week gap between 20milers enough to recover also considering the mid week runs you'll be doing also?

Sorry for all the q's!

Thanks

Jmcmen

Hey Ian,
Yeah was delighted with it. Was a PB for sure. Only ever done 1HM before but it was a disaster given I was on the lash for the 2 days previous.
My best Half Pace in a Marathon was 1:31 at the turn around but paid the Price in the last 6m given that I went out too hard.

Only feeling fully recovered this morning after last Saturday. Pushed a bit too hard I suppose. But did 8m This morning and legs turning alot better.

7m08sec pace is savage going I would have thought for your LSR.

Mine have been averaging about 7:50 I'd say.

Yeah one 20m tomorrow, 22m Next Thursday and final one on 21st. I dont mind the recovery of the slow runs to be honest. Maybe I am going too slow. I find it harder to recover from Speed work.

Personally I think 2 weeks is enough but I would not take that as Gospel, I am only a novice at this

KielyUnusual

Jmcmen wrote: »

Hey Ian,
Yeah was delighted with it. Was a PB for sure. Only ever done 1HM before but it was a disaster given I was on the lash for the 2 days previous.
My best Half Pace in a Marathon was 1:31 at the turn around but paid the Price in the last 6m given that I went out too hard.

Only feeling fully recovered this morning after last Saturday. Pushed a bit too hard I suppose. But did 8m This morning and legs turning alot better.

7m08sec pace is savage going I would have thought for your LSR.

Mine have been averaging about 7:50 I'd say.

Yeah one 20m tomorrow, 22m Next Thursday and final one on 21st. I dont mind the recovery of the slow runs to be honest. Maybe I am going too slow. I find it harder to recover from Speed work.

Personally I think 2 weeks is enough but I would not take that as Gospel, I am only a novice at this

I think you are on the right track definitely. Your long runs shouldn't be too fast that you find yourself taking a long time to recover. Marathon pace + 1 min is ideal. The speed work is where you should be feeling the aches and the muscle tightness next day so in my opinion, you're getting it spot on. Getting in a good volume of long runs will really stand to you on the day.

Jmcmen

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Sounds like you're certainly in the ball-park. Do you have any marathon pace sessions planned over the next few weeks? It would be an idea to get some miles at the target pace and see how it feels (e.g. 18 miles with 12 @MP).

It feels like Death, Did a 23miler last night. Did mile 6 to 17 at MP. Then got to 21 and started to fade. Felt not too bad then got into the shower and started shivering like a leaf, Was in bits till I got warm and my good wife got me a cuppa with sugar in it, never got out of the bed though. That said I am not too bad today and not too stiff, albeit a little tired.
One more 20Miler next Friday and that will be 5 x 20+milers. Feeling good how the training has gone

BeepBeep67

Jmcmen wrote: »

It feels like Death, Did a 23miler last night. Did mile 6 to 17 at MP. Then got to 21 and started to fade. Felt not too bad then got into the shower and started shivering like a leaf, Was in bits till I got warm and my good wife got me a cuppa with sugar in it, never got out of the bed though. That said I am not too bad today and not too stiff, albeit a little tired.
One more 20Miler next Friday and that will be 5 x 20+milers. Feeling good how the training has gone

IMO mid-week long runs after work are the toughest to get through, definitely tougher than rocking out of bed on Sunday morning, so I wouldn't worry too much about starting to fade.
6 x 20+milers under the belt by race day is fantastic work.

likestosmile

Ok, so I'm aiming for sub 3 in Manchester in less than 3 weeks. My question to any of you who have regularly broke 3 is what average per mile is the best. My previous attempt of sub 3 in Franfurt ended at 3.02, but my garmin watch was telling me i was on target doing consistent 6.48-6.50 per mile. I didn't actually realise i was out until i saw the marker at mile 25 and my watch had beeped approx half a mile before that. And for anyone that asked i though i ran the "thin blue line". How do i overcome this in Manchester? Go out at 6.45?

Krusty_Clown

likestosmile wrote: »

Ok, so I'm aiming for sub 3 in Manchester in less than 3 weeks. My question to any of you who have regularly broke 3 is what average per mile is the best. My previous attempt of sub 3 in Franfurt ended at 3.02, but my garmin watch was telling me i was on target doing consistent 6.48-6.50 per mile. I didn't actually realise i was out until i saw the marker at mile 25 and my watch had beeped approx half a mile before that. And for anyone that asked i though i ran the "thin blue line". How do i overcome this in Manchester? Go out at 6.45?

To be absolutely frank, the best way to break 3 hours, is to train for 2:55, however, assuming you're in good shape, the optimal approach (assuming both halves of the Manchester course are pretty similar in terms of difficulty and profile) would be to aim for a minor negative split. Specifically:
First half: 1:30:30
Second half: 1:29:00 (or less)

Banking time (by running 6:45 per mile or faster) doesn't work. Personally, if you are cutting it fine, I wouldn't base my pace on Garmin mile splits. Instead, I'd print off a pace band for 2:59, and check your splits against the pace-band at every mile (I'm assuming Manchester is based on miles). I previously ran Berlin marathon at 6:50/mile (based on my Garmin) and crossed the finish line in 3:00:50.