The Sub 3 Support Thread

yaboya1

From my own perspective, firstly I tried to line all the shorter race times up with McMillan/Vdot that pointed to a sub 3. I managed to do that with a fairly significant cushion and also trained towards 2:55, running MP miles at 6:40 pace. That gave me a lot of confidence, especially the times in the longer races which proved to me I could hold a much faster pace for 10m/HM.

I think if you do that and training goes well, you've got every chance. I do think building in the cushion is essential though. If you train for 2:59:59, you need absolutely everything to go to plan on the day and that very rarely happens. There's a lot of things that can go wrong in the marathon, and generally at least one (if not more) of them does. The cushion allows you to be slightly slower than you've trained for, for whatever reason.

I also got into an excellent habit of completing a routine of light stretching after every single training run. Nothing fancy, but it seemed to prevent any niggles or injuries. It's something I've neglected since and can definitely feel the effects of not doing it. Other than being a bit tired the odd time, I never had any other physical complaints. I also did two core work sessions per week. I absolutely hate(d) it, but it probably helped too. Another thing I've not been doing recently. Regular foam rolling also helped keep the legs in good nick.

Itziger

Name

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5k

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5m

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10k

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10m

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HM

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Mara

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Target Race

TbL | 19:27 | 31:xx | 39:30 | 01:04:xx | 01:25:xx | 03:05:xx | TBC 2016
FBOT | 17:42 | 29:59 | 38:42 | 01:00:34 | 01:26:02 | 03:00:59 | TBC
AMK | 17:38 | 29:13 | 37:40 | 01:02:30 | 01:27:xx | 03:00:36 | DCM 2016
Tomwaits48 | 19:17 | 32:00 | 39:xx |01:05:45| 01:28:xx | 03:17:xx | TBC 2017
Duanington |17:35|29:17|36:36|61:42|1:23:22|3:03:xx| Berlin 2016
MrMacPhisto | 17:23 | 29:01 | 36:42 | 01:01:55 | 1:22:53 | 3:00:56 | Valencia 2016
snailsong |19:06|31:49|39:11|NA|1:28:20|3:06:52|TBC 2017
rooneyjm |19:35||39:20|1:08|1:29:37|3:23|DCM 2016
davedanon|18:34|31:34|39:51|1:06:21|1:30:30|3:14:18|Berlin 2016
Itziger|17:50|29:52|36:48|NA|1:22:04|3:03:28|TBC 2016

robinph

As others have said do not believe the watch and do not go out trying to run 2:59:59, unless you are one of the official pacers. Everyone else should be setting the watch to around 2:55'ish pace and trying to hit that which should allow for traffic and running longer than the watch expects. After the first 5 miles, when the crowds thin out, stick to the blue line, but also watch where the road actually goes as there is probably a shorter route than even the blue line on many corners or where the road just takes slight wriggles. Do not get caught up in the mele of the first drink station, leave the rest of them to it and run down the middle of the road, hold your hand out and take a bottle off someone else a bit further down the road if really needed.

Do not trust the pacers at London Marathon, they are pretty unreliable as I saw 4:15, 4:00, 4:30 and 5:00 pacers go past me in the opposite direction within 5 minutes and in that order, the 3hr guys may be a bit more on the money but with multiple starts I'd not trust them. Dublin pacers are obviously spot on with the timings.

ClashCityRocker

I went from a 3:18 PB in Chicago 2014 to sub 3 (by seven seconds!) in Berlin 2015. Looking back on it i think the main things for me were

a) joining a club post-Chicago. I think i got pretty immediate benefits from training with others and pushing myself not to get left behind on group runs, gaining knowledge etc. Training with people with similar aims gave me a much better grip of what sort of paces i should be doing different runs at.

b) regular long tempo runs. Tuesday night club runs we do are around nine miles over an undulating course around hampstead heath. I think doing these made me much stronger and much less daunted by running "fast" for a prolonged period of time

c) sort of linked to this is running on hills, either sessions or just as part of LSRs. I'd probably avoided this in the past. Even if it's just a mental thing, i felt running on the flat in Berlin was much less intimidating as a result.

d) consistency, as many have mentioned. I would run six days a week, and regularly seven. Previously i may have done four or five. Over the space of a year this really built up the engine. Most weeks in i'd clock up 55+ miles, peaking around the 70 mark in the build up to Berlin

In a way, i'm not sure how helpful this is to others in the thread - it worked for me but i was coming from a long way behind in terms of current marathon PBs compared to a lot of the low three hour times in the table. I'm sure "joining a club" isn't earth shattering advice for anyone! I think the main thing is just to try to keep the consistency there, that for me was the largest part of it i think. Build it up slowly but surely.

gucci

I am really enjoying reading the experience and advice in this thread. Having just run my first marathon (3:16) my next "long term" goal is the Sub 3.....good to see there are plenty of folks here who have followed a similar route.
I am probably a good 12 months off giving it a proper crack (I will try break the 3:10 first) but all going well I will get there in time (and try to learn from all of you in the mean time!)

dublin runner

The main things I learned from the last marathon training cycle:

-Keep the speed in the legs. You need to work beyond MP throughout the cycle, particularly in the early stages.
-Marathon pace should feel comfortable. In the last few weeks I never once worried about hitting MP. The great aspect of the Magness plan was that he 'demystified' marathon pace. It didn't feel hard. By the end running, for example, 7 miles at marathon pace didn't even feel like a session.
-Build up to 3x(5@MP, 800m @Steady). That was the kept session for me. While I went out slower on the day, that session proved to me I was in decent shape. I would highly recommend that session, even more than the usual 5,4,3,2,1.
-Don't over race.
-Don't over emphasis the importance of your HM time in relation to your target marathon time. Likewise, a 5km has virtually no relation to a possible marathon time in my opinion.
-Get the sessions in. Everything should revolve around the key session of the week. Nothing else really matters. Run as many easy/recovery miles as you can while hitting the sessions. Slow down your easy runs.
-Long run peaked at just over 24 miles. I really do not believe the traditional 20 is enough (novice runners the exception)
-Lastly, do not race your sessions! A big common mistake made by so many.

Gavlor

dublin runner wrote: »

The main things I learned from the last marathon training cycle:

-Keep the speed in the legs. You need to work beyond MP throughout the cycle, particularly in the early stages.
-Marathon pace should feel comfortable. In the last few weeks I never once worried about hitting MP. The great aspect of the Magness plan was that he 'demystified' marathon pace. It didn't feel hard. By the end running, for example, 7 miles at marathon pace didn't even feel like a session.
-Build up to 3x(5@MP, 800m @Steady). That was the kept session for me. While I went out slower on the day, that session proved to me I was in decent shape. I would highly recommend that session, even more than the usual 5,4,3,2,1.
-Don't over race.
-Don't over emphasis the importance of your HM time in relation to your target marathon time. Likewise, a 5km has virtually no relation to a possible marathon time in my opinion.
-Get the sessions in. Everything should revolve around the key session of the week. Nothing else really matters. Run as many easy/recovery miles as you can while hitting the sessions. Slow down your easy runs.
-Long run peaked at just over 24 miles. I really do not believe the traditional 20 is enough (novice runners the exception)
-Lastly, do not race your sessions! A big common mistake made by so many.

Could you elaborate on the last point? It's an interesting observation!

tipping

Great thread. Keep the advice coming although sub 3 isn't nearly on the agenda.

Anyone got an opinion on pre-marathon cycle training? I've about 6 weeks to go before training for dcm begins in earnest and am currently building up the long runs to about 2 hours 10 minutes (15 miles) . Aim is to get to 2 1/2 hours easy (about 17 miles) over the the next while to improve endurance.

BeepBeep67

Gavlor wrote: »

Could you elaborate on the last point? It's an interesting observation!

Guess he means as the fitness improves it's quite easy to get carried away and run your sessions too hard and you hear of plenty of examples where someone 'wins' in training, but never seems to be able to replicate in a race environment.

Every session has a purpose, it your target is 10 miles @ MP pace (6:40) are you more likely to hit your race target if you run 10 @ 6:30 pace and be overcooked and fatigued come race day.

BeepBeep67

Marathon racing history:
Rotterdam April 2012 DNF @ 17: Sub 3 attempt, started the year injured, only ran my 1st 20 5 weeks before the race. Made it to 13 on plan, stomach was at me, made a conscious decision to stop.

Kildare May 2012 3:09:02: Got another 20 in and rolled the dice, ran with the pacers until 16, wheels slowly came off, lack of training exposed.

Rotterdam April 2013 DNF @ 17: Training was as good as it could be, 7 x 20+, hit all the LT and Vo2max work, trained through a very cold winter, to be hit 20+ degrees on race day, was about a minute up at 12 miles, and then wilted in the midday sun, passing a walking Maria Cambridge. Preservation was key and I didn't see any point in slogging myself for another 10 miles.

Kildare May 2013 2:57:50: Rolled the training over, supplemented with some shorter races. Felt great on race day, stayed off the back of the pacers and apart from 1 wobble about 21 finished very strong with a 20min last 5k.

London 2014 DNF @ 16: Bruised my ribs 9 days before the race, should have rested up kept to the plan. on the day my legs were running @ MP, my HR was @ T, was fooked by 10, jumped on the tube, passed out and came to on Westminster platform before being escorted back to my family.

Manchester 2016 2:55:51: Great training cycle apart for a glute niggle and a chest infection, had a stomach bug on race day and left 2-3 mins behind me.

tbc

Sandwell

Name

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5k

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5m

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10k

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10m

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HM

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Mara

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Target Race

TbL | 19:27 | 31:xx | 39:30 | 01:04:xx | 01:25:xx | 03:05:xx | TBC 2016
FBOT | 17:42 | 29:59 | 38:42 | 01:00:34 | 01:26:02 | 03:00:59 | TBC
AMK | 17:38 | 29:13 | 37:40 | 01:02:30 | 01:27:xx | 03:00:36 | DCM 2016
Tomwaits48 | 19:17 | 32:00 | 39:xx |01:05:45| 01:28:xx | 03:17:xx | TBC 2017
Duanington |17:35|29:17|36:36|61:42|1:23:22|3:03:xx| Berlin 2016
MrMacPhisto | 17:23 | 29:01 | 36:42 | 01:01:55 | 1:22:53 | 3:00:56 | Valencia 2016
snailsong |19:06|31:49|39:11|NA|1:28:20|3:06:52|TBC 2017
rooneyjm |19:35||39:20|1:08|1:29:37|3:23|DCM 2016
davedanon|18:34|31:34|39:51|1:06:21|1:30:30|3:14:18|Berlin 2016
Itziger|17:50|29:52|36:48|NA|1:22:04|3:03:28|TBC 2016
Sandwell|17:24|28:57|37:10|59:29|1:22:xx|NA|TBC 2016

I'll throw my hat in the ring too. I've been saying all year that I'd make a call in June if I could stay injury free. I've been plagued with a foot injury for the past month but if I can that sorted over the next few weeks then I'll start thinking about Dublin in earnest. Reading this thread has really whetted my appetite.

davedanon

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

Marathon racing history:
Rotterdam April 2012 DNF @ 17: Sub 3 attempt, started the year injured, only ran my 1st 20 5 weeks before the race. Made it to 13 on plan, stomach was at me, made a conscious decision to stop.

Kildare May 2012 3:09:02: Got another 20 in and rolled the dice, ran with the pacers until 16, wheels slowly came off, lack of training exposed.

Rotterdam April 2013 DNF @ 17: Training was as good as it could be, 7 x 20+, hit all the LT and Vo2max work, trained through a very cold winter, to be hit 20+ degrees on race day, was about a minute up at 12 miles, and then wilted in the midday sun, passing a walking Maria Cambridge. Preservation was key and I didn't see any point in slogging myself for another 10 miles.

Kildare May 2013 2:57:50: Rolled the training over, supplemented with some shorter races. Felt great on race day, stayed off the back of the pacers and apart from 1 wobble about 21 finished very strong with a 20min last 5k.

London 2014 DNF @ 16: Bruised my ribs 9 days before the race, should have rested up kept to the plan. on the day my legs were running @ MP, my HR was @ T, was fooked by 10, jumped on the tube, passed out and came to on Westminster platform before being escorted back to my family.

Manchester 2016 2:55:51: Great training cycle apart for a glute niggle and a chest infection, had a stomach bug on race day and left 2-3 mins behind me.

tbc

Jaysus, that's a chequered history! I thought I was bad, but at least I manage to finish my marathons. (I do understand that DNF'ing allows one to come back a month later, as you did).

BeepBeep67

davedanon wrote: »

Jaysus, that's a chequered history! I thought I was bad, but at least I manage to finish my marathons. (I do understand that DNF'ing allows one to come back a month later, as you did).

There's a bit of a pattern there all right, need to find another DNF before another PB attempt

davedanon

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

There's a bit of a pattern there all right, need to find another DNF before another PB attempt

DCM Kaboom, followed by 2.50 in San Sebastian...

Murph_D

Name |

5k

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5m

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10k

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10m

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HM

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Mara

| Target Race
TbL |19:27|31:xx|39:30|1:04:xx|1:25:xx|3:05:xx|TBC 2016
FBOT|17:42|29:59|38:42|1:00:34|1:26:02|3:00:59|TBC
AMK|17:38|29:13|37:40|1:02:30|1:27:xx|3:00:36|DCM 2016
Tomwaits48|19:17|32:00|39:xx|1:05:45|1:28:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
Duanington|17:35|29:17|36:36|1:01:42|1:23:22|3:03:xx|Berlin 2016
MrMacPhisto|17:23|29:01|36:42|1:01:55|1:22:53|3:00:56|Valencia 2016
snailsong|19:06|31:49|39:11|N/A|1:28:20|3:06:52|TBC 2017
rooneyjm|19:35|N/A|39:20|1:08:xx|1:29:37|3:23:xx|DCM 2016
davedanon|18:34|31:34|39:51|1:06:21|1:30:30|3:14:18|Berlin 2016
Itziger|17:50|29:52|36:48|N/A|1:22:04|3:03:28|TBC 2016
Sandwell|17:24|28:57|37:10|0:59:29|1:22:xx|N/A|TBC 2016

Lurking here, on the assumption that most of what is said, scaled accordingly, might also apply to breaking 3:15-ish targets. So I fancied up your table a bit, to autosort by existing marathon PB.

dublin runner

Gavlor wrote:

Could you elaborate on the last point? It's an interesting observation!

BeepBeep67 wrote:

Guess he means as the fitness improves it's quite easy to get carried away and run your sessions too hard and you hear of plenty of examples where someone 'wins' in training, but never seems to be able to replicate in a race environment.

Every session has a purpose, it your target is 10 miles @ MP pace (6:40) are you more likely to hit your race target if you run 10 @ 6:30 pace and be overcooked and fatigued come race day.

That pretty much sums it up.

Listen, I am as guilty as the next regarding sessions. Put simply, if your race times do not match up with your training something is not right. The idea is to hit the correct training zone, be it a mundane easy run or a track session. I constantly go through spells of overcooking sessions, granted I am getting better in this regard but I still make mistakes (this will perhaps never change!). In my experience most will end up running themselves into the ground, while not seeing much (or any) improvement in races and on the clock.

99% of he people I train are good in this regard. Sure, the last rep might be a small big quicker but it's not a free-for-all! Everyone knows someone who hammers all around them in training but cannot get near that in races. Don't be that guy or girl! Keep it for the races. After all, no one asks you for your training pbs!

Myles Splitz

Interesting to see the different approaches on what worked for different people.

In terms of coaching people everytime I think I have it cracked with people and have a recipe for marathon running I end up changing the approach slightly. It has gotten to the approach where I feel like the best approach is based on where the athlete is. Many times this is simply broken down to stronger or faster athletes and they focus on the area weakest to tackle (9/10 times its strength)

I have got to the stage now where I categorize runners into 3 different sections

1) New to sport/aerobically lacking

These people tend to be relatively new to the sport or have ran some good times at shorter distances but you can see that performances drop off dramatically at each step along the distance spectrum. These people don't have the miles in the legs to do marathon specific training so the focus is just on getting them aerobically lacking. With these people Easy Long runs, Progression runs and steady runs seem to work best for people and would aim to keep them from running excessively long (Maxing at on 2.45-3hr run) The steady runs will be mid length so that the athlete doesn't buckle structurally from long runs week in week out. (HADD or other plans of styles like this can be great for this type of training)

2) Relatively strong athletes with fairly linear decline going up distances

These are the runners who are usually viewed as strong athletes. Times become more competitive relative to people around them going up in distance. For these people they are closer to there aerobic roof than they should be meaning there is little room for error (a fast mile can hurt more than it should on marathon day in terms of fueling and generating lactate and causing excessive fatigue) For these people you want to make them all round fitter so 10k paced reps, Tempos and Long runs all play a focus and will get the best out of the runner. For these type of people the likes of P&D and Hanson or Lydiard Plans can be great for development.

3) Higher mileage guys with good 10k/HM ability

These are the guys who have a good aerobic background of a few years and have dedicated a good bit of time to 5k/10k work in the build up to the marathon training. If you were to look at a LT test these would be the guys who have managed to push the threshold out to higher paces or as mentioned their Vdot/other calculators equivalent times are in line after a specific blok. These are the guys who should be focus on bringing their HM and MP levels as close as possible. There training is focused about becoming more efficient in fueling and economy at race pace. For these people the likes of Daniels style training or Canova could work particularly well.

When looking at plans in the coming weeks and months it is worth having a look at what kinda runner you are in relation to those who are also aiming for the target and chose a plan which best suits your needs rather than the plan that got X to sub 3

Other than this general tips

- Easy Runs EASY. Can't stress enough that these are just about getting miles in legs. Make your session days big and the rest is filler

- Run consistent and run often. Try to get out for atleast 30 min every day. Its the day after day, week after week and month after month that the gains come from not any one key session

- Sleep, Hydration and Diet make a different. Not always noticeable in terms of the watch but for recovery and motivation these aspects can be the game changer in terms of mentally getting through marathon training

- Run at right paces. Tempo's and MP runs are designed for a specific response at a particular effort. Running them harder than planned might be good for confidence but it changes the dynamics of the training session. Don't let your own ego sabotage your training by kidding yourself

demfad

overpronator wrote: »

I managed to go from 3.15.45 in London 2014 to 2.58.20 in London 2015. What did it for me was consistency and increased mileage. I was very focused for 6 months beforehand and went into the marathon phase in a strong place 15 or 16 weeks out.

wowzer wrote: »

.......
I was determined to get it first time around so I really put my everything into the training. I was given a little help with regards to a plan that consisted of 2 key sessions a week, the rest of my running was very easy and I generally hit 65-70 miles per week.

PaulieYifter wrote: »

......
Consistency in training is also key - 6 days a week running injury free - I didn't get above 60 miles a week for my 1st sub 3 but after spraining my ankle I then didn't miss a scheduled run for 14 weeks up to the day. Don't murder yourself and put consistency at risk ....

Gavlor wrote: »

.......

I really only took the whole training thing seriously for London 14.
I Increased the quantity and quality for London to over 50 miles per week at the business end of the plan and did my training based on 2.55 even though I targeted 2.57/8 on the day.

ClashCityRocker wrote: »

......

d) consistency, as many have mentioned. I would run six days a week, and regularly seven. Previously i may have done four or five.

As far as I can see many key limiters/enablers are emerging. Just to initially highlight one point here consistant throughout from the runners who have succeeded in the goal. Krusty clearly fits into this category also. Beep Beep had a long period of consistancy before his Kildare marathon. (Just to note that many of the breakthroughs seem to have occurred after consistancy over a longer period than the actual marathon schedule. The runner was in a 'good place' when the schedule began.)

We sacrifice a lot to the cause and if consistency is so vital surely we can't leave it to chance. If we can be consistent we have clearly made a huge stride towards the goal. What do runners do to ensure consistancy?




Ill just throw one idea out for scrutiny:

IMO you can greatly aid consistancy by actually reducing the weekly load. It sounds ridiculous but bear with me.
Say a runner is running 50 miles a week inc. 2 sessions and feels this is close to his/her limit. This is normal. It's testing the runner but with a bit of luck they'll get through unscathed. Could the runner manage many many weeks of this? Probably not. Tired body, tired mind sooner or later an injury will happen, mistake will be made.
Now what if this 50 miles per week wi. 2 sessions was more comfortable, further from the runners limit, luck plays a much diminished role. The weeks is more sustainable and consistancy much more likley.
How can this be achieved? Say he drops down to 40 per week now. This week will feel very easy, controlled. He then builds slowly back up to 50 per week over 4-5 weeks. This slow increase means it still feels like the 40 mile week, still feels easy and sustainable.
The runner is not back where he/she started. The external load (actual work done) is the same. But the internal load is less. The runner can do the same amount of work with less effort. The likelihood of injury and burnout are greatly reduced so consistancy is very likely. If they do this before their marathon buildup they would be starting from a 'good place' IMO and have a great chance of succeeding.

You will still have to face the key few weeks of tough stuff that Beep Beep mentioned, but with this approach IMO you'll get there in one piece and strong as an ox.

charkee

I am probably passed my marathon best. I have run a stack of 3.01s and 3.02s
but have gone under a few times with 2.56 my best.
For my best times, looking back Tuesday 2k or 2mile intervals, tempo 10m on a thursday and the weekend LSR were the staple. Whether the LSR is sat or sun does not make a difference.

in 2011,I ran two sub 3s. steady LSRs in spring and faster more interval type LSR in the autumn. My times were virtually the same.

My core advice is don't overtrain or stretch the programme too long. 12-16 weeks is enough.

I have seen too many doing too much in May and thus getting injured in Sept.

mcmiilan times 10k up are a good guide,38 mins 10k,1.04 10 mile 1.23 half.
Anything above and it does not look on.

lastly, join a club or marathon group, Its the only way. shared training experience will be all the better when you can meet up post race and full of blisters to share stories of the day and have a blast.

Gavlor

demfad wrote: »

Ill just throw one idea out for scrutiny:

IMO you can greatly aid consistancy by actually reducing the weekly load. It sounds ridiculous but bear with me.
Say a runner is running 50 miles a week inc. 2 sessions and feels this is close to his/her limit. This is normal. It's testing the runner but with a bit of luck they'll get through unscathed. Could the runner manage many many weeks of this? Probably not. Tired body, tired mind sooner or later an injury will happen, mistake will be made.
Now what if this 50 miles per week wi. 2 sessions was more comfortable, further from the runners limit, luck plays a much diminished role. The weeks is more sustainable and consistancy much more likley.
How can this be achieved? Say he drops down to 40 per week now. This week will feel very easy, controlled. He then builds slowly back up to 50 per week over 4-5 weeks. This slow increase means it still feels like the 40 mile week, still feels easy and sustainable.
The runner is not back where he/she started. The external load (actual work done) is the same. But the internal load is less. The runner can do the same amount of work with less effort. The likelihood of injury and burnout are greatly reduced so consistancy is very likely. If they do this before their marathon buildup they would be starting from a 'good place' IMO and have a great chance of succeeding.

You will still have to face the key few weeks of tough stuff that Beep Beep mentioned, but with this approach IMO you'll get there in one piece and strong as an ox.

Sold!!

Coffee Fulled Runner

What percentage of your maximum heart rate do you keep them easy runs at lads? Also depending on how I calculate my MHR it can be between 183-188 I guess using a formula isn't the most accurate way to find your maximum heart rate.

snailsong

Really enjoying this thread. Some great advice from experienced guys and I'm particularly interested in the advice of those involved in coaching. A lot of this I haven't heard before, and some I'd have queries about.

Firstly, everyone says to get in 2:55 shape and train for that. Get the half in the low 80's. Now this is all fine and dandy for young fit guys with bags of ability. These guys will break 3 sooner or later anyhow. For myself and, I think, a few others a low 80's half is not a short term option. Probably not long term either. However 1:25 might be doable and when I do it you can bet I'll be going for glory over 42.2. Im all in favour of being in 2:55 shape but if I really believe I'm in 2:59 shape then well....off we go. How does the 2:55 guy approach the marathon? Half in 1:27:30 and keep that pace or 1:30 at halfway and keep a bit in reserve. I would picture myself planning a 1:30:30 halfway split and ramp it up from there. What do ye think?

Also it's interesting to read the contrasting ideas on long run pace. Someone earlier said to run with faster guys to force yourself on. I'm not so keen on this as most of my training group would be in or around 3:30 runners. I like running with my friends and am not inclined to change that. I tell everybody that you can't do the long runs slow enough, I'm the one shouting to slow down on Sunday mornings.
Then I hear 'easy days easy'. I like the sound of that. One of the online calculators gives my easy pace as 5:08/km (8:13/m). I often go a lot slower than that, am I wrong? Is it OK to go slow on the long ones if the midweek sessions are done well?

charkee

snailsong re marathon splits.

I have done my best on negative splits or very even.ie 1.29 at halfway.

I prefer to hold a little back and in the 4-10 miles ,If I am too quick coming up to the marker,I will ease down to the marker.

It was only Rotterdam 2011 that I did a 2.58 on a 1.28 split. That day I ran with a group for the first 20.

I have had more blow ups at 1.27.1,28 splits eg New York 2007 3.01 ,rotterdam 2013,3.03.

Cant answer re heart rate, I still run on a cheap casio.

ps
I am not convinced re gels other than placebo ..

BeepBeep67

snailsong wrote: »

Really enjoying this thread. Some great advice from experienced guys and I'm particularly interested in the advice of those involved in coaching. A lot of this I haven't heard before, and some I'd have queries about.

Firstly, everyone says to get in 2:55 shape and train for that. Get the half in the low 80's. Now this is all fine and dandy for young fit guys with bags of ability. These guys will break 3 sooner or later anyhow. For myself and, I think, a few others a low 80's half is not a short term option. Probably not long term either. However 1:25 might be doable and when I do it you can bet I'll be going for glory over 42.2. Im all in favour of being in 2:55 shape but if I really believe I'm in 2:59 shape then well....off we go. How does the 2:55 guy approach the marathon? Half in 1:27:30 and keep that pace or 1:30 at halfway and keep a bit in reserve. I would picture myself planning a 1:30:30 halfway split and ramp it up from there. What do ye think?

Also it's interesting to read the contrasting ideas on long run pace. Someone earlier said to run with faster guys to force yourself on. I'm not so keen on this as most of my training group would be in or around 3:30 runners. I like running with my friends and am not inclined to change that. I tell everybody that you can't do the long runs slow enough, I'm the one shouting to slow down on Sunday mornings.
Then I hear 'easy days easy'. I like the sound of that. One of the online calculators gives my easy pace as 5:08/km (8:13/m). I often go a lot slower than that, am I wrong? Is it OK to go slow on the long ones if the midweek sessions are done well?

With regard to long run paces, I think this is critical and where you may need to sacrifice, but also there are options to compromise.
If it's just an easy long run and time on the feet is the goal then I would suggest anywhere from MP + 45secs to 90secs is fine depending on how hard your week has been - the pace should feel easy for the duration of the run.
If it contains MP specific paces, you are better doing that as part of a long run as you are educating your body to cope at that pace when fatigued.

I mainly train on my own, but I do also train with both faster and slower runners, the slower ones help me keep my discipline on long slow run and I can compromise with the faster ones. Example I have to do 20 with the last 10 @ MP, I'll pick a 10 mile loop, run easy for 10, then meet up with a sub 2:40 guy for the 2nd lap.

davedanon

snailsong wrote: »

One of the online calculators gives my easy pace as 5:08/km (8:13/m). I often go a lot slower than that, am I wrong? Is it OK to go slow on the long ones if the midweek sessions are done well?

You can't go too slow. P&D give a range for easy runs. Mine might be from 8.15 - 9.00 or so. Depending on how I feel I'll be nearer one end than another. My approach (wrongheaded) used to be to try and run my long runs faster and faster. I would congratulate myself on an 18-plus mile run at sub-8 pace. Of course I was just flogging myself, and eventually the penny dropped after one too many indifferent marathons. Now however the long run will feature MP sections, longer and longer as the goal race approaches. These make the difference, so I'm happy to do 'ordinary' long runs at whatever pace suits me.

Bez Bing

Excellent thread, some great advice. I'm a marathon cycle or 2 away from sub 3 at the moment but seeing the progression people have made give me hope.

Need to break the 90min HM and 40 min 10k and then to go under 3:20 in Chicago and we'll see from there.

demfad

Gavlor wrote: »

Sold!!

I was going to mention it to you re. the young family.
Last year it worked very well for me while kids were 1 and 3 (I made a PB and breakthrough run in a 10k race). Just to add, initially I made the 'sessions' easier, basically whatever I could adapt to comfortably with the sleep I was getting. I was able to slowly adapt the sessions with this philosophy till they looked tough on paper (but felt relatively easy). Also, I only did something 'harder' once every 3 days at most to make sure I got max adaption.
I worried that this rate of change would be too slow to produce any adaptions. But there was no need. No matter how you get there if you're training has you covering consistent solid weeks. You're strong. If these weeks feel relatively easy. You're very strong.

RayCun

Coffee Fulled Runner wrote: »

What percentage of your maximum heart rate do you keep them easy runs at lads? Also depending on how I calculate my MHR it can be between 183-188 I guess using a formula isn't the most accurate way to find your maximum heart rate.

No,there's no point in using a formula. Get a real MHR, either by being tested or from measuring max effort sprints

Kemboi

Going to add my name in here. I've been lurking around the forum and logs for a while. Was thinking about starting a log but this will do nicely as sub 3 at DCM 2016 the main aim.

Marathon times to date
3:27 DCM '14
3:07 DCM '15

PB's
5k 18:00 May '16
5m 29:50 Aug '15
10k 38:00 April '16
10m 65.50 March '14
HM 1:25:30 Sept '15
Full 3:07:00 Oct '15

Been concentrating the training towards 5k/10k since January and will build it up over the summer. Followed P&D up to 50miles (2013) and 50-70 (2014) for previous marathons but no plan decided on yet.

Great info on this thread and if someone could add me to the table please.

tomred1N

Name |

5k

|

5m

|

10k

|

10m

|

HM

|

Mara

| Target Race
TbL |19:27|31:xx|39:30|1:04:xx|1:25:xx|3:05:xx|TBC 2016
FBOT|17:42|29:59|38:42|1:00:34|1:26:02|3:00:59|TBC
AMK|17:38|29:13|37:40|1:02:30|1:27:xx|3:00:36|DCM 2016
Tomwaits48|19:17|32:00|39:xx|1:05:45|1:28:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
Duanington|17:35|29:17|36:36|1:01:42|1:23:22|3:03:xx|Berlin 2016
MrMacPhisto|17:23|29:01|36:42|1:01:55|1:22:53|3:00:56|Valencia 2016
snailsong|19:06|31:49|39:11|N/A|1:28:20|3:06:52|TBC 2017
rooneyjm|19:35|N/A|39:20|1:08:xx|1:29:37|3:23:xx|DCM 2016
davedanon|18:34|31:34|39:51|1:06:21|1:30:30|3:14:18|Berlin 2016
Itziger|17:50|29:52|36:48|N/A|1:22:04|3:03:28|TBC 2016
Sandwell|17:24|28:57|37:10|0:59:29|1:22:xx|N/A|TBC 2016
Tomred1N |19:01|32:25|41:40|1:05:57|1:28:30|3:12:41|TBC 2020

This was not a good thread for me to come across as I try to reduce my dependence on running related endorphins. I have missed my AA club meeting tonight as well so probably on the slippery slope again............
They say an unreachable target demotivates even the best but looking on the positives as usual this might give me another 5 years based on that most common of running related pass requests " i'll pack it up honey when I see 2:59 on that clock "