The Sub 3 Support Thread

Gavlor

This thread has so much potential, can I suggest that those looking to break 3 this year (and those of us that are hovering around just under that time) post race plans for the coming weeks/months along with predicted times? It's a way of avoiding the thread becoming a cluster of training logs and advice can be given around specific questions or suggestions to improve race times??

It'll also keep the thread tipping along to the autumn. I'm on the phone at the minute but will post up a table of my planned races and target times later if people think it's a good idea....

Edit I don't necessarily mean one big table, each poster should have his/her own table for updating as each race passes.

ThebitterLemon

Good idea Gavlor,

I'll use your table template

Not so sure I'll be able to populate predicted times this early though

TbL

ainsyjnr

Name |

5k

|

5m

|

10k

|

10m

|

HM

|

Mara

| Target Race
TbL |19:27|31:xx|39:30|1:04:xx|1:25:xx|3:05:xx|TBC 2016
FBOT|17:42|29:59|38:42|1:00:34|1:26:02|3:00:59|TBC
AMK|17:38|29:13|37:40|1:02:30|1:27:xx|3:00:36|DCM 2016
Tomwaits48|19:17|32:00|39:xx|1:05:45|1:28:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
Duanington|17:35|29:17|36:36|1:01:42|1:23:22|3:03:xx|Berlin 2016
MrMacPhisto|17:23|29:01|36:42|1:01:55|1:22:53|3:00:56|Valencia 2016
snailsong|19:06|31:49|39:11|N/A|1:28:20|3:06:52|TBC 2017
rooneyjm|19:35|N/A|39:20|1:08:xx|1:29:37|3:23:xx|DCM 2016
davedanon|18:34|31:34|39:51|1:06:21|1:30:30|3:14:18|Berlin 2016
Itziger|17:50|29:52|36:48|N/A|1:22:04|3:03:28|TBC 2016
Sandwell|17:24|28:57|37:10|0:59:29|1:22:xx|N/A|TBC 2016
Tomred1N |19:01|32:25|41:40|1:05:57|1:28:30|3:12:41|TBC 2020
Ainsyjnr |18:32|30:07|36:50|1:02:24|1:24:04|3:01:46|TBC


Great to see this thread up and running again. The last year has been eye opening for me as had some input from a coach. Improved a lot to a 3:01 in Limerick after getting injured 5 weeks ago and having to abandon Manchester. I was well on track to break 3 hours, did very little running in last 5 weeks and was only just short. I lost 80 secs in the last 2 miles.

Key for me has been consistency over the last year. Less is more, I was tired on 70 mpw and just didn't improve. Marathon paced miles, and a little above and below...this trained my body to run really well at that pace. I adapted so well that before I got injured my easy run heart rate pace was just 20 secs per mile slower than marathon pace. That changed a little by the time I got to Limerick but I was cruising at sub 3 pace. And this was all at 55mpw max.

davedanon

Great to see this thread up and running again. The last year has been eye opening for me as had some input from a coach. Improved a lot to a 3:01 in Limerick after getting injured 5 weeks ago and having to abandon Manchester. I was well on track to break 3 hours, did very little running in last 5 weeks and was only just short. I lost 80 secs in the last 2 miles.

Key for me has been consistency over the last year. Less is more, I was tired on 70 mpw and just didn't improve. Marathon paced miles, and a little above and below...this trained my body to run really well at that pace. I adapted so well that before I got injured my easy run heart rate pace was just 20 secs per mile slower than marathon pace. That changed a little by the time I got to Limerick but I was cruising at sub 3 pace. And this was all at 55mpw max.

It all goes to show there is no one size that fits all. People on that list with HM times I can only dream of, with slower 5k pb's.

Itziger

Just going to throw this question out there....... What's the slowest HM time for a sub 3 marathon runner that you know of?

averagejoe123

Name |

5k

|

5m

|

10k

|

10m

|

HM

|

Mara

| Target Race
TbL |19:27|31:xx|39:30|1:04:xx|1:25:xx|3:05:xx|TBC 2016
FBOT|17:42|29:59|38:42|1:00:34|1:26:02|3:00:59|TBC
AMK|17:38|29:13|37:40|1:02:30|1:27:xx|3:00:36|DCM 2016
Tomwaits48|19:17|32:00|39:xx|1:05:45|1:28:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
Duanington|17:35|29:17|36:36|1:01:42|1:23:22|3:03:xx|Berlin 2016
MrMacPhisto|17:23|29:01|36:42|1:01:55|1:22:53|3:00:56|Valencia 2016
snailsong|19:06|31:49|39:11|N/A|1:28:20|3:06:52|TBC 2017
rooneyjm|19:35|N/A|39:20|1:08:xx|1:29:37|3:23:xx|DCM 2016
davedanon|18:34|31:34|39:51|1:06:21|1:30:30|3:14:18|Berlin 2016
Itziger|17:50|29:52|36:48|N/A|1:22:04|3:03:28|TBC 2016
Sandwell|17:24|28:57|37:10|0:59:29|1:22:xx|N/A|TBC 2016
Tomred1N |19:01|32:25|41:40|1:05:57|1:28:30|3:12:41|TBC 2020
Ainsyjnr |18:32|30:07|36:50|1:02:24|1:24:04|3:01:46|TBC
Averagejoe123|17:47|30:26|38:41|1:04:45|1:27:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017



Too many life events this year to have a serious crack in 2016 but will be looking to get the shorter stuff down. The 5k time is my most recent PB so that hopefully suggests that the others are there for the taking with some decent training.

Would love to see this thread stay active as there is some seriously good advice from people in their pursuit of a sub 3 marathon.

Coffee Fulled Runner

What would be the best marathon to attempt a sub 3 in Ireland? Weather and elevation gain would play a big part I'm sure?

davedanon

Coffee Fulled Runner wrote: »

What would be the best marathon to attempt a sub 3 in Ireland? Weather and elevation gain would play a big part I'm sure?

Seems Belfast has a handy short cut near the end, lots of runners avail to get that elusive sub-3.

BeepBeep67

Itziger wrote: »

Just going to throw this question out there....... What's the slowest HM time for a sub 3 marathon runner that you know of?

We've an F40 in the club that PB'd in Charleville with 85:30 and the PB'd in Dublin 5 weeks later with 2:58:28.

Itziger

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

Itziger wrote: »

Just going to throw this question out there....... What's the slowest HM time for a sub 3 marathon runner that you know of?

We've an F40 in the club that PB'd in Charleville with 85:30 and the PB'd in Dublin 5 weeks later with 2:58:28.

I know of a very similar case; almost same HM and Full times as those.

AuldManKing

Itziger wrote: »

Just going to throw this question out there....... What's the slowest HM time for a sub 3 marathon runner that you know of?

ClaraLara, once of these parts, ran 1:25:34 in Athlone Flatline and went on to do a 2:57:35 in DCM.

Murph_D

Name|5k|5m|10k|10m|HM|Mara|Target Race
TbL |19:27|31:xx|39:30|1:04:xx|1:25:xx|3:05:xx|TBC 2016
FBOT|17:42|29:59|38:42|1:00:34|1:26:02|3:00:59|TBC
AMK|17:38|29:13|37:40|1:02:30|1:27:xx|3:00:36|DCM 2016
Tomwaits48|19:17|32:00|39:xx|1:05:45|1:28:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
Duanington|17:35|29:17|36:36|1:01:42|1:23:22|3:03:xx|Berlin 2016
MrMacPhisto|17:23|29:01|36:42|1:01:55|1:22:53|3:00:56|Valencia 2016
snailsong|19:06|31:49|39:11|N/A|1:28:20|3:06:52|TBC 2017
rooneyjm|19:35|N/A|39:20|1:08:xx|1:29:37|3:23:xx|DCM 2016
davedanon|18:34|31:34|39:51|1:06:21|1:30:30|3:14:18|Berlin 2016
Itziger|17:50|29:52|36:48|N/A|1:22:04|3:03:28|TBC 2016
Sandwell|17:24|28:57|37:10|0:59:29|1:22:xx|N/A|TBC 2016
Tomred1N |19:01|32:25|41:40|1:05:57|1:28:30|3:12:41|TBC 2020
Ainsyjnr |18:32|30:07|36:50|1:02:24|1:24:04|3:01:46|TBC
Averagejoe123|17:47|30:26|38:41|1:04:45|1:27:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
Kemboi|18:00|29:50|38:00|1:05:50|1:25:30|3:07:xx|DCM 2016

wowzer

Itziger wrote: »

Just going to throw this question out there....... What's the slowest HM time for a sub 3 marathon runner that you know of?

I PB'd 1:27:28 in Athlone two weeks before Berlin. In fairness I didn't race it properly, but I doubt I would have gone under 1:25 if I did.

ainsyjnr

What do we think to these?
http://runsmartproject.com/coaching/training-plans

They say they tweak them to your own needs. Seems like it fits between the standard plans in the books and having your own coach.

I would like to do my own plan but am not sure I want to invest all that time in doing something and then it not to have worked...at least this way you are guaranteed more of a pedigree. Reasonable price too. $70 for 15 weeks.

AuldManKing

ainsyjnr wrote: »

What do we think to these?
http://runsmartproject.com/coaching/training-plans

They say they tweak them to your own needs. Seems like it fits between the standard plans in the books and having your own coach.

I would like to do my own plan but am not sure I want to invest all that time in doing something and then it not to have worked...at least this way you are guaranteed more of a pedigree. Reasonable price too. $70 for 15 weeks.

I would say this this would be a typical JD plan with the paces for each session filled in suited to your pace/goal.
If you think that's worth $70, then go for it.

ainsyjnr

AuldManKing wrote: »

I would say this this would be a typical JD plan with the paces for each session filled in suited to your pace/goal.
If you think that's worth $70, then go for it.

If that's all they do I probably wouldn't bother. They say you fill in a questionnaire and they tailor it, I just wonder how much individuality you get.

Thinking about it, the benefit of knowing how to do you own plan is when something comes up and you need to work around it. A plan like this would go out of the window if you miss a few weeks with injury as you could never catch up to it again.

BeepBeep67

ainsyjnr wrote: »

What do we think to these?
http://runsmartproject.com/coaching/training-plans

They say they tweak them to your own needs. Seems like it fits between the standard plans in the books and having your own coach.

I would like to do my own plan but am not sure I want to invest all that time in doing something and then it not to have worked...at least this way you are guaranteed more of a pedigree. Reasonable price too. $70 for 15 weeks.

The average price range for joining a club and getting access to a coach is probably €50 - €100 - I know where I would send my hard earned!

FBOT01

Murph_D wrote: »

Name|5k|5m|10k|10m|HM|Mara|Target Race
TbL |19:27|31:xx|39:30|1:04:xx|1:25:xx|3:05:xx|TBC 2016
FBOT|17:42|29:59|38:42|1:00:34|1:26:02|3:00:59|TBC
AMK|17:38|29:13|37:40|1:02:30|1:27:xx|3:00:36|DCM 2016
Tomwaits48|19:17|32:00|39:xx|1:05:45|1:28:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
Duanington|17:35|29:17|36:36|1:01:42|1:23:22|3:03:xx|Berlin 2016
MrMacPhisto|17:23|29:01|36:42|1:01:55|1:22:53|3:00:56|Valencia 2016
snailsong|19:06|31:49|39:11|N/A|1:28:20|3:06:52|TBC 2017
rooneyjm|19:35|N/A|39:20|1:08:xx|1:29:37|3:23:xx|DCM 2016
davedanon|18:34|31:34|39:51|1:06:21|1:30:30|3:14:18|Berlin 2016
Itziger|17:50|29:52|36:48|N/A|1:22:04|3:03:28|TBC 2016
Sandwell|17:24|28:57|37:10|0:59:29|1:22:xx|N/A|TBC 2016
Tomred1N |19:01|32:25|41:40|1:05:57|1:28:30|3:12:41|TBC 2020
Ainsyjnr |18:32|30:07|36:50|1:02:24|1:24:04|3:01:46|TBC
Averagejoe123|17:47|30:26|38:41|1:04:45|1:27:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
Kemboi|18:00|29:50|38:00|1:05:50|1:25:30|3:07:xx|DCM 2016

Murph while you were fixing that table should you not have added 2mins to AMK's Marathon PB

AMK I think you and I need to get our fingers out and sort out our 10K and HM times........you coming to Dunshaughlin in June??

demfad

snailsong wrote: »

Really enjoying this thread. Some great advice from experienced guys and I'm particularly interested in the advice of those involved in coaching. A lot of this I haven't heard before, and some I'd have queries about.

Firstly, everyone says to get in 2:55 shape and train for that. Get the half in the low 80's. Now this is all fine and dandy for young fit guys with bags of ability. These guys will break 3 sooner or later anyhow. For myself and, I think, a few others a low 80's half is not a short term option. Probably not long term either. However 1:25 might be doable and when I do it you can bet I'll be going for glory over 42.2. Im all in favour of being in 2:55 shape but if I really believe I'm in 2:59 shape then well....off we go. How does the 2:55 guy approach the marathon? Half in 1:27:30 and keep that pace or 1:30 at halfway and keep a bit in reserve. I would picture myself planning a 1:30:30 halfway split and ramp it up from there. What do ye think?

Also it's interesting to read the contrasting ideas on long run pace. Someone earlier said to run with faster guys to force yourself on. I'm not so keen on this as most of my training group would be in or around 3:30 runners. I like running with my friends and am not inclined to change that. I tell everybody that you can't do the long runs slow enough, I'm the one shouting to slow down on Sunday mornings.
Then I hear 'easy days easy'. I like the sound of that. One of the online calculators gives my easy pace as 5:08/km (8:13/m). I often go a lot slower than that, am I wrong? Is it OK to go slow on the long ones if the midweek sessions are done well?

Believing in the time: I agree that you have to believe in your time. If you don't believe it, it could be due to lack self belief or a realistic subconcious assesment. Either way you need to believe the time and it needs to be a credible time.
The most common time loss IMO in a marathon race is a fade due to muscular endurance or fuel issues. If you've lost a few minutes in a previous marathon in the closing stages then I would immediately subtract the lost time as a starting point for a time prediction. A change in training emphasis will fix this and even lower your time further (than the lost faded time) with no extra workload. That's one easy and reasonable way of believing in a lower time. A previous fade can be a good thing from the point of view of improving time.

How to fix most fades:
The specific paces for a 3 hr marathon are 6:32 - 7:12 (+/- 5%). Most people will focus specific sessions on the HMP (6:32:MP-5%) and MP sessions ignoring the third pillar completely (7:12 MP +5%). You can run a long way at this pace so muscular endurance is enhanced in a very beneficial way for your marathon. Also this pace also has you burning relatively more fat than glycogen and gets you used to burning a mixture of both at a decent clip which HM training does not. So a few runs at this pace helps both muscular endurance and Fuel economy. You'd have built up your long runs slowly (Beep beeps long run guidlines MP + 45s or so). You can identify these runs in most schedule as 'steady'. Don't neglect them IMO they will bag you more time than HM sessions.

*Note1. You will get the muscular endurance from loads of long runs, but even so evolving towards these long steady runs will force your MP down from above for reasons stated.


*Note 2. I'd disagree with some by stating that if you are fast at shorter races but relatively slow at longer stuff. If so I believe your endurance MUST be addressed as the glaring weakness. You may have to build up slower but the marathon is an endurance evident and if one checkpoint needs to be ticked it should be adequate endurance. These runners may be best suited to focus on building endurance for a 10m race, then a HM and then step up a season or so later. They can still succeed though but they must focus on endurance big time for a long time.

Pacing:

If the endurance is there I would see slightly slower first half than second as a likely outcome to an even effort.

Easy runs easy for sure in training for most of us. This is not always the case: If runners are doing Lydiard marathon conditioning then most paces are steady and easy running is actually jogging.

Sure time on the feet runs should be about time on the feet. As mentioned above though, after you build up your long runs I would be of the opinion of doing some faster long runs but still slower than your marathon pace.
Some marathon paced runs are useful but I wouldn't over focus there either.
For example a runner lacking in marathon endurance might be better off doing 18 miles at 3-4% slower than MP than say 13 miles at MP. The first run would actually help the runners time more. They are tweaks a runner can make to his/her schedule as needs be later on when limiters become apparent. Err on the endurance side!

sideswipe

Great to see this thread alive and well! Have been reading it from day one.
Would have hoped to have been closer to giving it a shot at this stage but seem to have plateaued a bit having gone from 4:22 in 09 to 3:12 in 15.
Going to work on lining up my times over the shorter distances up to half marathon before another attempt.

AuldManKing

FBOT01 wrote: »

Murph while you were fixing that table should you not have added 2mins to AMK's Marathon PB

AMK I think you and I need to get our fingers out and sort out our 10K and HM times........you coming to Dunshaughlin in June??

Yes to Dunshaughlin and the only half I'll race this year will probably be Athlone.
Regarding the marathon PB - wheres the middle finger emoticon??

demfad

Name|5k|5m|10k|10m|HM|Mara|Target Race
McMillan |18:28|30:28|38:22|1:04:07|1:25:32|3:00:00|Ref Times
TbL |19:27|31:xx|39:30|1:04:xx|1:25:xx|3:05:xx|TBC 2016
FBOT|17:42|29:59|38:42|1:00:34|1:26:02|3:00:59|TBC
AMK|17:38|29:13|37:40|1:02:30|1:27:xx|3:00:36|DCM 2016
Tomwaits48|19:17|32:00|39:xx|1:05:45|1:28:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
Duanington|17:35|29:17|36:36|1:01:42|1:23:22|3:03:xx|Berlin 2016
MrMacPhisto|17:23|29:01|36:42|1:01:55|1:22:53|3:00:56|Valencia 2016
snailsong|19:06|31:49|39:11|N/A|1:28:20|3:06:52|TBC 2017
rooneyjm|19:35|N/A|39:20|1:08:xx|1:29:37|3:23:xx|DCM 2016
davedanon|18:34|31:34|39:51|1:06:21|1:30:30|3:14:18|Berlin 2016
Itziger|17:50|29:52|36:48|N/A|1:22:04|3:03:28|TBC 2016
Sandwell|17:24|28:57|37:10|0:59:29|1:22:xx|N/A|TBC 2016
Tomred1N |19:01|32:25|41:40|1:05:57|1:28:30|3:12:41|TBC 2020
Ainsyjnr |18:32|30:07|36:50|1:02:24|1:24:04|3:01:46|TBC
Averagejoe123|17:47|30:26|38:41|1:04:45|1:27:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
Kemboi|18:00|29:50|38:00|1:05:50|1:25:30|3:07:xx|DCM 2016


Stuck in young MacMillan's times there for reference

snailsong

Thanks for this reply, demfad. Very helpful. I've added in my thoughts in the gaps, apologies for lack of IT wizardry.

Believing in the time: I agree that you have to believe in your time. If you don't believe it, it could be due to lack self belief or a realistic subconcious assesment. Either way you need to believe the time and it needs to be a credible time.
The most common time loss IMO in a marathon race is a fade due to muscular endurance or fuel issues. If you've lost a few minutes in a previous marathon in the closing stages then I would immediately subtract the lost time as a starting point for a time prediction. A change in training emphasis will fix this and even lower your time further (than the lost faded time) with no extra workload. That's one easy and reasonable way of believing in a lower time. A previous fade can be a good thing from the point of view of improving time.

I think I'm ok in this regard. Normally do a negative split. My thinking is that if you do damage by going too fast early on then you have to carry that damage a long way. More suffering. Suffered a big fade before and learned from that. My most recent marathon was Rotterdam last month. Splits 1:34:03 and 1:32:49. First Km was slowest and last was fastest, all the rest pretty even. Tempted to think I was a bit too conservative but don't know what might have happened if I'd pushed on sooner.

How to fix most fades:
The specific paces for a 3 hr marathon are 6:32 - 7:12 (+/- 5%). Most people will focus specific sessions on the HMP (6:32:MP-5%) and MP sessions ignoring the third pillar completely (7:12 MP +5%). You can run a long way at this pace so muscular endurance is enhanced in a very beneficial way for your marathon. Also this pace also has you burning relatively more fat than glycogen and gets you used to burning a mixture of both at a decent clip which HM training does not. So a few runs at this pace helps both muscular endurance and Fuel economy. You'd have built up your long runs slowly (Beep beeps long run guidlines MP + 45s or so). You can identify these runs in most schedule as 'steady'. Don't neglect them IMO they will bag you more time than HM sessions.

*Note1. You will get the muscular endurance from loads of long runs, but even so evolving towards these long steady runs will force your MP down from above for reasons stated.


*Note 2. I'd disagree with some by stating that if you are fast at shorter races but relatively slow at longer stuff. If so I believe your endurance MUST be addressed as the glaring weakness. You may have to build up slower but the marathon is an endurance evident and if one checkpoint needs to be ticked it should be adequate endurance. These runners may be best suited to focus on building endurance for a 10m race, then a HM and then step up a season or so later. They can still succeed though but they must focus on endurance big time for a long time.


Building MP miles into long runs is definitely something I need to work on. Might have to compromise my schedule as suggested above.






Pacing:

If the endurance is there I would see slightly slower first half than second as a likely outcome to an even effort.

Easy runs easy for sure in training for most of us. This is not always the case: If runners are doing Lydiard marathon conditioning then most paces are steady and easy running is actually jogging.

Sure time on the feet runs should be about time on the feet. As mentioned above though, after you build up your long runs I would be of the opinion of doing some faster long runs but still slower than your marathon pace.
Some marathon paced runs are useful but I wouldn't over focus there either.
For example a runner lacking in marathon endurance might be better off doing 18 miles at 3-4% slower than MP than say 13 miles at MP. The first run would actually help the runners time more. They are tweaks a runner can make to his/her schedule as needs be later on when limiters become apparent. Err on the endurance side!


FWIW I always use P+D plans. 55 mile plans so far but next cycle I might try the 70 mile one, I think I'm ready for it now. Most improvements I've seen seem to come from upping the milage.

snailsong

Putting the McMillan times in the table is very interesting. Tells me two things,

1. I'm uniformly lacking a few per cent over every distance:). So not obvious what to work on.

2. As I'd imagined a 1:25 half might be sufficient. Just as well as I dont have a lot of speed, I'm nearly as old as the Lemon:D.

summit2summit

[font=Verdana","sans-serif]Absolutely great to see this thread come back to life. I have been very busy reading the newest posts over the last few days! It is great to hear about the different approaches people take .[/font]

[font=Verdana","sans-serif]I will be giving a sub 3 a go again this year at DCM. Last year I was half way through a 5 month plan but picked up a strange injury at the start of the Phoenix Park 10 miler which ruled me out for too long, so I had to abandon my goal [/font]L

[font=Verdana","sans-serif]Since Jan 1, I have just been doing a very casual 25K per week up until now with 7 hill races and a park run included in that. I have cycled to work (25K per day) for the past 14 months and I feel that has made my legs strong. As a result, my default comfortable running pace has gone from close to 5 mins/per K last year to 4:20ish mins/per K this year up to HM distance.[/font]

[font=Verdana","sans-serif]I have done 5 DCM s before but was just doing them with no real goals in mind. This time however, I have sub 3 in my firmly in my sights for October 30th. If that does not go to plan, I will sign up for Rotterdam and I have also thrown my name into the ballot for London too for the craic [/font]

[font=Verdana","sans-serif]So that is where I am now and what the plan is. I reckon about 16 weeks out I will start a plan and see how it plays out .[/font]

[font=Verdana","sans-serif]All previous marathons to date[/font]

[font=Verdana","sans-serif]3:54:17 DCM '08[/font]
[font=Verdana","sans-serif]3:54:58 DCM '09[/font]
[font=Verdana","sans-serif]3:43:16 DCM '10[/font]
[font=Verdana","sans-serif]3:32:15 DCM '11[/font]
[font=Verdana","sans-serif]3:14:02 DCM '12[/font]

[font=Verdana","sans-serif]PB's[/font]

[font=Verdana","sans-serif]5k 17:52 Dec 13[/font]
[font=Verdana","sans-serif]5m N/A[/font]
[font=Verdana","sans-serif]10k 38:50 July 15[/font]
[font=Verdana","sans-serif]10m N/A[/font]
[font=Verdana","sans-serif]HM 1:35:34 Oct 12 (I ran a hilly HM last weekend in 1:35:51 as a training run so I am sure I would be closer to 1:25 in a race setting based on current fitness)[/font]
[font=Verdana","sans-serif]Full 3:14:02 Oct 12[/font]

[font=Verdana","sans-serif]Cheers![/font]

[font=Verdana","sans-serif]S2S[/font]

Itziger

snailsong wrote: »

Putting the McMillan times in the table is very interesting. Tells me two things,

1. I'm uniformly lacking a few per cent over every distance:). So not obvious what to work on.

2. As I'd imagined a 1:25 half might be sufficient. Just as well as I dont have a lot of speed, I'm nearly as old as the Lemon:D.

Should we add our ages?

AuldManKing

demfad wrote: »

How to fix most fades:
The specific paces for a 3 hr marathon are 6:32 - 7:12 (+/- 5%). Most people will focus specific sessions on the HMP (6:32:MP-5%) and MP sessions ignoring the third pillar completely (7:12 MP +5%). You can run a long way at this pace so muscular endurance is enhanced in a very beneficial way for your marathon. Also this pace also has you burning relatively more fat than glycogen and gets you used to burning a mixture of both at a decent clip which HM training does not.


For example a runner lacking in marathon endurance might be better off doing 18 miles at 3-4% slower than MP than say 13 miles at MP. The first run would actually help the runners time more.

Great information above.
From a training perspective is it better to have these 'steady' sessions at the beginning of the training plan and build endurance that way - or is it to scatter them throughout the plan to give endurance a shot in the arm at different times?

Gavlor

summit2summit wrote: »

[font=Verdana","sans-serif]Absolutely great to see this thread come back to life. I have been very busy reading the newest posts over the last few days! It is great to hear about the different approaches people take .[/font]

[font=Verdana","sans-serif]I will be giving a sub 3 a go again this year at DCM. Last year I was half way through a 5 month plan but picked up a strange injury at the start of the Phoenix Park 10 miler which ruled me out for too long, so I had to abandon my goal [/font]L

[font=Verdana","sans-serif]Since Jan 1, I have just been doing a very casual 25K per week up until now with 7 hill races and a park run included in that. I have cycled to work (25K per day) for the past 14 months and I feel that has made my legs strong. As a result, my default comfortable running pace has gone from close to 5 mins/per K last year to 4:20ish mins/per K this year up to HM distance.[/font]

[font=Verdana","sans-serif]I have done 5 DCM s before but was just doing them with no real goals in mind. This time however, I have sub 3 in my firmly in my sights for October 30th. If that does not go to plan, I will sign up for Rotterdam and I have also thrown my name into the ballot for London too for the craic [/font]

[font=Verdana","sans-serif]So that is where I am now and what the plan is. I reckon about 16 weeks out I will start a plan and see how it plays out .[/font]

[font=Verdana","sans-serif]All previous marathons to date[/font]

[font=Verdana","sans-serif]3:54:17 DCM '08[/font]
[font=Verdana","sans-serif]3:54:58 DCM '09[/font]
[font=Verdana","sans-serif]3:43:16 DCM '10[/font]
[font=Verdana","sans-serif]3:32:15 DCM '11[/font]
[font=Verdana","sans-serif]3:14:02 DCM '12[/font]

[font=Verdana","sans-serif]PB's[/font]

[font=Verdana","sans-serif]5k 17:52 Dec 13[/font]
[font=Verdana","sans-serif]5m N/A[/font]
[font=Verdana","sans-serif]10k 38:50 July 15[/font]
[font=Verdana","sans-serif]10m N/A[/font]
[font=Verdana","sans-serif]HM 1:35:34 Oct 12 (I ran a hilly HM last weekend in 1:35:51 as a training run so I am sure I would be closer to 1:25 in a race setting based on current fitness)[/font]
[font=Verdana","sans-serif]Full 3:14:02 Oct 12[/font]

[font=Verdana","sans-serif]Cheers![/font]

[font=Verdana","sans-serif]S2S[/font]

I hate to be the barer of bad news, but you have no chance and you do not belong here.












Until you change from km to miles!

summit2summit

Gavlor wrote: »

summit2summit wrote: »

[font=Verdana","sans-serif]Absolutely great to see this thread come back to life. I have been very busy reading the newest posts over the last few days! It is great to hear about the different approaches people take .[/font]

[font=Verdana","sans-serif]I will be giving a sub 3 a go again this year at DCM. Last year I was half way through a 5 month plan but picked up a strange injury at the start of the Phoenix Park 10 miler which ruled me out for too long, so I had to abandon my goal [/font]L

[font=Verdana","sans-serif]Since Jan 1, I have just been doing a very casual 25K per week up until now with 7 hill races and a park run included in that. I have cycled to work (25K per day) for the past 14 months and I feel that has made my legs strong. As a result, my default comfortable running pace has gone from close to 5 mins/per K last year to 4:20ish mins/per K this year up to HM distance.[/font]

[font=Verdana","sans-serif]I have done 5 DCM s before but was just doing them with no real goals in mind. This time however, I have sub 3 in my firmly in my sights for October 30th. If that does not go to plan, I will sign up for Rotterdam and I have also thrown my name into the ballot for London too for the craic [/font]

[font=Verdana","sans-serif]So that is where I am now and what the plan is. I reckon about 16 weeks out I will start a plan and see how it plays out .[/font]

[font=Verdana","sans-serif]All previous marathons to date[/font]

[font=Verdana","sans-serif]3:54:17 DCM '08[/font]
[font=Verdana","sans-serif]3:54:58 DCM '09[/font]
[font=Verdana","sans-serif]3:43:16 DCM '10[/font]
[font=Verdana","sans-serif]3:32:15 DCM '11[/font]
[font=Verdana","sans-serif]3:14:02 DCM '12[/font]

[font=Verdana","sans-serif]PB's[/font]

[font=Verdana","sans-serif]5k 17:52 Dec 13[/font]
[font=Verdana","sans-serif]5m N/A[/font]
[font=Verdana","sans-serif]10k 38:50 July 15[/font]
[font=Verdana","sans-serif]10m N/A[/font]
[font=Verdana","sans-serif]HM 1:35:34 Oct 12 (I ran a hilly HM last weekend in 1:35:51 as a training run so I am sure I would be closer to 1:25 in a race setting based on current fitness)[/font]
[font=Verdana","sans-serif]Full 3:14:02 Oct 12[/font]

[font=Verdana","sans-serif]Cheers![/font]

[font=Verdana","sans-serif]S2S[/font]

I hate to be the barer of bad news, but you have no chance and you do not belong here.












Until you change from km to miles!

I always swap over to miles as the year goes on and my training kicks off proper but thanks for the welcoming post...

FBOT01

Itziger wrote: »

Should we add our ages?

Just go with an over or under 40 option........if you are under 40 you have no excuse and if you are over 40 you probably have more excuses than sub 3 attempts