The Sub 3 Support Thread

demfad

AuldManKing wrote: »

Great information above.
From a training perspective is it better to have these 'steady' sessions at the beginning of the training plan and build endurance that way - or is it to scatter them throughout the plan to give endurance a shot in the arm at different times?

You can do either.

Typically, you could do one every 2-3 weeks starting early e.g 14-18 miles (Mark Hadley). It would be 3-4 miles shorter than long run. As you get closer to the race you might do a big one of 20 miles as a base for the MP stuff and other fast long runs you might do. Now 20 miles @ MP + 5% is a hard run but if you can get close to that pace you can probably see how beneficial that would be to the subsequent training. The MP runs are a lot easier when the legs are already trained to running far and fastish. This means that steady runs are really a base for MP runs and other long fast runs.
(You could also so one long run of 22 miles but just a little slower (>90% MP) in the specific phase.)

So early on it's interspersed with the genaral training and you'd only need to do one or two early in the specific stuff. You could also so one long run of 22 miles but just a little slower.

You can do that type of run at all times. It compliments other sessions. So if you were doing a session now say 8 x 1k @ 10k pace. You could try a 10k fastish run. Not eyeballs out just controlled. This will give you a taste.
You could add 2k each time from now.

Looking at your DCM time last year youll nail the sub 3hr this time. Just be consistant and relaxed. Dont train too hard and let it build slowly.

snailsong

Itziger wrote: »

Should we add our ages?

Once you use age as an excuse you're already beaten.












And we wouldn't want to embarrass the Lemon.;-)

Myles Splitz

AuldManKing wrote: »

Great information above.
From a training perspective is it better to have these 'steady' sessions at the beginning of the training plan and build endurance that way - or is it to scatter them throughout the plan to give endurance a shot in the arm at different times?

Personally I opt to alternate between time on your feet runs and these steady runs.

I think this helps combat some of the structural stresses on the body. Even though the pace is higher these can actually be structurally less taxing than longer easy runs.

For example a progression could go

Week 1 18 miles easy
Week 2 14 miles steady
Week 3 20 miles easy
Week 4 15 miles steady

Gavlor

Here's another question...

As mentioned previously I haven't included S & C in any of my previous marathon cycles. Given that I'll be running most days, what is the best time to throw in some core work? Obviously rest day is one but I need to do at least 20 mins on my glute pretty much every day, should I do it on recovery/easy/steady days or limit it to easy & rest days.

BeepBeep67

I would agree with the long steady runs, I did run 24 and change at what was effectively MP+3% (6:55), followed by 20 with 12 @ MP, a bog standard 22 (7:25) and then my 5-4-3.... session which was 6:47 average for 21.4, and then dropped the LSR the following to allow myself to recover and adapt. I was also experimenting with a 4 up, 1 down cycle as I was on a short marathon specific plan.

But having had race target time (2:52) in my legs @ a decent clip for 24.8 miles, the MP sessions didn't hold any fear.
But in my opinion these should be early enough in the cycle, mine was 8 weeks out.

CR 7

Name|5k|5m|10k|10m|HM|Mara|Target Race
McMillan |18:28|30:28|38:22|1:04:07|1:25:32|3:00:00|Ref Times
TbL |19:27|31:xx|39:30|1:04:xx|1:25:xx|3:05:xx|TBC 2016
FBOT|17:42|29:59|38:42|1:00:34|1:26:02|3:00:59|TBC
AMK|17:38|29:13|37:40|1:02:30|1:27:xx|3:00:36|DCM 2016
Tomwaits48|19:17|32:00|39:xx|1:05:45|1:28:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
Duanington|17:35|29:17|36:36|1:01:42|1:23:22|3:03:xx|Berlin 2016
MrMacPhisto|17:23|29:01|36:42|1:01:55|1:22:53|3:00:56|Valencia 2016
snailsong|19:06|31:49|39:11|N/A|1:28:20|3:06:52|TBC 2017
rooneyjm|19:35|N/A|39:20|1:08:xx|1:29:37|3:23:xx|DCM 2016
davedanon|18:34|31:34|39:51|1:06:21|1:30:30|3:14:18|Berlin 2016
Itziger|17:50|29:52|36:48|N/A|1:22:04|3:03:28|TBC 2016
Sandwell|17:24|28:57|37:10|0:59:29|1:22:xx|N/A|TBC 2016
Tomred1N |19:01|32:25|41:40|1:05:57|1:28:30|3:12:41|TBC 2020
Ainsyjnr |18:32|30:07|36:50|1:02:24|1:24:04|3:01:46|TBC
Averagejoe123|17:47|30:26|38:41|1:04:45|1:27:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
Kemboi|18:00|29:50|38:00|1:05:50|1:25:30|3:07:xx|DCM 2016
CR 7|17:45|30:30|37:21|1:04:50|1:23:25|5:04:xx|TBC 2016



Perfect timing for this thread to be reactivated.:) I just finished my first marathon over the weekend in 5:04*, and I'm planning on breaking 3 in a late summer/early autumn marathon. Taking this week to recover and will be starting some plan next week if I think I've recovered.

Training for the last marathon consisted of 4 20+ mile runs added into the usual weekly training I've been maintaining since the end of racing last year. Typically 2 speedwork sessions or 1 speed/1 hill/tempo and a 13+ easy long run and a faster/harder ~10 mile usually in a Sat/Sun combination. The 20 mile runs weren't too much of a struggle when I started adding them, so I'll try to keep the long runs at least over 16 miles from now on. And, of course, tweaking the plan as I go based on advice/anecdotes from here.;)

(*The 5:04 was from the Ballyhoura Mountain Marathon, so may be slightly skewed.)

El Caballo

Name|5k|5m|10k|10m|HM|Mara|Target Race
McMillan |18:28|30:28|38:22|1:04:07|1:25:32|3:00:00|Ref Times
TbL |19:27|31:xx|39:30|1:04:xx|1:25:xx|3:05:xx|TBC 2016
FBOT|17:42|29:59|38:42|1:00:34|1:26:02|3:00:59|TBC
AMK|17:38|29:13|37:40|1:02:30|1:27:xx|3:00:36|DCM 2016
Tomwaits48|19:17|32:00|39:xx|1:05:45|1:28:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
Duanington|17:35|29:17|36:36|1:01:42|1:23:22|3:03:xx|Berlin 2016
MrMacPhisto|17:23|29:01|36:42|1:01:55|1:22:53|3:00:56|Valencia 2016
snailsong|19:06|31:49|39:11|N/A|1:28:20|3:06:52|TBC 2017
rooneyjm|19:35|N/A|39:20|1:08:xx|1:29:37|3:23:xx|DCM 2016
davedanon|18:34|31:34|39:51|1:06:21|1:30:30|3:14:18|Berlin 2016
Itziger|17:50|29:52|36:48|N/A|1:22:04|3:03:28|TBC 2016
Sandwell|17:24|28:57|37:10|0:59:29|1:22:xx|N/A|TBC 2016
Tomred1N |19:01|32:25|41:40|1:05:57|1:28:30|3:12:41|TBC 2020
Ainsyjnr |18:32|30:07|36:50|1:02:24|1:24:04|3:01:46|TBC
Averagejoe123|17:47|30:26|38:41|1:04:45|1:27:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
Kemboi|18:00|29:50|38:00|1:05:50|1:25:30|3:07:xx|DCM 2016
CR 7|17:45|30:30|37:21|1:04:50|1:23:25|5:04:xx|TBC 2016
El Caballo|18:34|31:15|39:46|1:05:xx|1:26:26|3:15:29|TBC 2017


Just putting my name in the table. Haven't had a chance to go through the thread fully yet since the other day but there looks a wealth of information been posted and would like to say Fairplay for all the effort been put in by all.

My story at the minute is trying to regain some forms after a decent enough patch of inconsistency. Managed a low 1:33 half at the weekend pretty early in my building back up stage off fairly low mileage for me which is encouraging. My approach is going to be pretty longterm with a very slow gradual increase in mileage to really get my consistency going and locked down so I'm running a lot less than usual but hope to be running more than I ever have by the end of the year and start of marathon training if my body holds up. Just trying to stay patient!:)

Krusty_Clown

Gavlor wrote: »

Here's another question...

As mentioned previously I haven't included S & C in any of my previous marathon cycles. Given that I'll be running most days, what is the best time to throw in some core work? Obviously rest day is one but I need to do at least 20 mins on my glute pretty much every day, should I do it on recovery/easy/steady days or limit it to easy & rest days.

Whenever you can fit it in! I don't think you need to focus too heavily on S&C when the goal is sub 3, but it certainly doesn't hurt (much!). If you have a condition that you need to look after, that's a little different - you do it when you need to. For example you may need to work on the glute the night before sessions etc.

I always plan to do my non-running stuff on recovery/easy days, but it never works out like that (everything falls together at the weekend). You just have to remember that the S&C stuff, while beneficial, is just there to support the main goal, which is the running. So don't compromise on the running, and ease back on the S&C if you have to choose between the two. If you can manage both, great. Just don't over-strain yourself. There's many a runner never started the race because of hurting themselves doing S&C and few that missed the start line because they didn't do any.

Bulmers74

Name|5k|5m|10k|10m|HM|Mara|Target Race
McMillan |18:28|30:28|38:22|1:04:07|1:25:32|3:00:00|Ref Times
TbL |19:27|31:xx|39:30|1:04:xx|1:25:xx|3:05:xx|TBC 2016
FBOT|17:42|29:59|38:42|1:00:34|1:26:02|3:00:59|TBC
AMK|17:38|29:13|37:40|1:02:30|1:27:xx|3:00:36|DCM 2016
Tomwaits48|19:17|32:00|39:xx|1:05:45|1:28:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
Duanington|17:35|29:17|36:36|1:01:42|1:23:22|3:03:xx|Berlin 2016
MrMacPhisto|17:23|29:01|36:42|1:01:55|1:22:53|3:00:56|Valencia 2016
snailsong|19:06|31:49|39:11|N/A|1:28:20|3:06:52|TBC 2017
rooneyjm|19:35|N/A|39:20|1:08:xx|1:29:37|3:23:xx|DCM 2016
davedanon|18:34|31:34|39:51|1:06:21|1:30:30|3:14:18|Berlin 2016
Itziger|17:50|29:52|36:48|N/A|1:22:04|3:03:28|TBC 2016
Sandwell|17:24|28:57|37:10|0:59:29|1:22:xx|N/A|TBC 2016
Tomred1N |19:01|32:25|41:40|1:05:57|1:28:30|3:12:41|TBC 2020
Ainsyjnr |18:32|30:07|36:50|1:02:24|1:24:04|3:01:46|TBC
Averagejoe123|17:47|30:26|38:41|1:04:45|1:27:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
Kemboi|18:00|29:50|38:00|1:05:50|1:25:30|3:07:xx|DCM 2016
CR 7|17:45|30:30|37:21|1:04:50|1:23:25|5:04:xx|TBC 2016
El Caballo|18:34|31:15|39:46|1:05:xx|1:26:26|3:15:29|TBC 2017
Bulmers74|18:54|31:46|39:33|1:06:00|1:26:27|3:08:36|TBC 2016

Slogger Jogger

Great thread.
Broke 3 hrs in Rotterdam after 12 years and over 20 previous marathons.
What worked this time?
Good luck.
Structured training.
Discipline and being selfish towards your target goal.
Long runs with MP paced closing sections.
Lots of races dropped into the schedule e.g Bohermeen HM, BHAA 4 mile, Wicklow fit4life races, the odd parkrun. All helped with confidence and conditioning.
Tempo runs in training.
Staying off my usual hills and trying to keep my running event specific where possible.
Work with a training buddy or buddies who are training for similar event in similar timeline. Its a big help not be completely solo. While many of your runs will be solo its always good to swap experiences.
I ran my race at sub 4:10 min per k pace. Worked for me as I had time in the bag towards the end.
Ran 2:57 on the day and with luck could have ran 2:55 if it wasn't for a wobble in the last 6-7k. Going on 48 this year so age doesn't need to be a barrier to your running.
Best of luck to sub 3ers. Its there for you.

Itziger

Broke 3 hrs in Rotterdam after 12 years and over 20 previous marathons.,

Shoot Slogger, I'm only 8 years in and 10 marathons....

ger664

Name|5k|5m|10k|10m|HM|Mara|Target Race
McMillan |18:28|30:28|38:22|1:04:07|1:25:32|3:00:00|Ref Times
TbL |19:27|31:xx|39:30|1:04:xx|1:25:xx|3:05:xx|TBC 2016
FBOT|17:42|29:59|38:42|1:00:34|1:26:02|3:00:59|TBC
AMK|17:38|29:13|37:40|1:02:30|1:27:xx|3:00:36|DCM 2016
Tomwaits48|19:17|32:00|39:xx|1:05:45|1:28:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
Duanington|17:35|29:17|36:36|1:01:42|1:23:22|3:03:xx|Berlin 2016
MrMacPhisto|17:23|29:01|36:42|1:01:55|1:22:53|3:00:56|Valencia 2016
snailsong|19:06|31:49|39:11|N/A|1:28:20|3:06:52|TBC 2017
rooneyjm|19:35|N/A|39:20|1:08:xx|1:29:37|3:23:xx|DCM 2016
davedanon|18:34|31:34|39:51|1:06:21|1:30:30|3:14:18|Berlin 2016
Itziger|17:50|29:52|36:48|N/A|1:22:04|3:03:28|TBC 2016
Sandwell|17:24|28:57|37:10|0:59:29|1:22:xx|N/A|TBC 2016
Tomred1N |19:01|32:25|41:40|1:05:57|1:28:30|3:12:41|TBC 2020
Ainsyjnr |18:32|30:07|36:50|1:02:24|1:24:04|3:01:46|TBC
Averagejoe123|17:47|30:26|38:41|1:04:45|1:27:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
Kemboi|18:00|29:50|38:00|1:05:50|1:25:30|3:07:xx|DCM 2016
CR 7|17:45|30:30|37:21|1:04:50|1:23:25|5:04:xx|TBC 2016
El Caballo|18:34|31:15|39:46|1:05:xx|1:26:26|3:15:29|TBC 2017
Bulmers74|18:54|31:46|39:33|1:06:00|1:26:27|3:08:36|TBC 2016
ger664|19:45|N/A|41:11|1:09:33|1:35:56|3:18:12|TBC 2017/18

Currently in Multi Marathon mode but once I hit 50 (June) just before I enter the M50 bracket :rolleyes: I am going to take the summer easy comeback at the short stuff and XC over the winter. Get the 5K-10M times down and maybe have a crack in Autumn 17 or Spring 18.

El Caballo

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Whenever you can fit it in! I don't think you need to focus too heavily on S&C when the goal is sub 3, but it certainly doesn't hurt (much!). If you have a condition that you need to look after, that's a little different - you do it when you need to. For example you may need to work on the glute the night before sessions etc.

I always plan to do my non-running stuff on recovery/easy days, but it never works out like that (everything falls together at the weekend). You just have to remember that the S&C stuff, while beneficial, is just there to support the main goal, which is the running. So don't compromise on the running, and ease back on the S&C if you have to choose between the two. If you can manage both, great. Just don't over-strain yourself. There's many a runner never started the race because of hurting themselves doing S&C and few that missed the start line because they didn't do any.

Agree with pretty much everything KC says there.

I always tried to do S&C on easy or days off (what little I do)but I've been doing a bit of reading on David McHenry lately who is the physio and S&C coach for the Nike Oregon project for the likes of Farah, Rupp and Co. and was interested to see he thought differently. His motto was "Hard days hard, Easy days easy" for everything so they do all their S&C training and running workouts on the same day and keep all the easy days in between for recovery from both S&C and running. The only time he said they don't do this is after a particularly long or intense run workouts where they will push the S&C out to the next day.

His big thing was that form had to be good when doing the strengthening and if you couldn't hold your form on a workout day, it was best to leave the S&C until you were fresher. In other words, everyone is different but the ideal would be workout days if you could as your body has more time to recover but obviously time has a big influence on us who aren't paid to run as well.

demfad

snailsong wrote: »

Putting the McMillan times in the table is very interesting. Tells me two things,

1. I'm uniformly lacking a few per cent over every distance:). So not obvious what to work on.

2. As I'd imagined a 1:25 half might be sufficient. Just as well as I dont have a lot of speed, I'm nearly as old as the Lemon:D.

Increasing mileage will be necessary.
Up until the point of diminishing returns increasing mileage seems to have an invariably positive affect on marathon performance. IMO runners who are looking to increase mileage for marathon performance should have an 'increasing mileage phase'. Increasing mileage can be risky. I would recommend this approach as a way to increase it safely and stay fresh before your marathon training.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=99608345&postcount=1279.
This puts you in a 'good place' before the marathon training. The idea is a sustainable increase in mileage that feels relatively easy.
BeepBeep's 9 day schedule, (or session every 3 days) is worth experimenting with. You simply get more adaption with more rest, and if it feels too easy just pad out the intermediate mileage (during easy two days) which suits the cause anyway.

This phase would be very much aerobic but it would be advisable to keep in touch with all relavent paces and work on some weaknesses. I am doing something similar at the moment. Moderate progression runs, fartleks, hilly fartleks etc. Enjoyable controlled stuff. We all neglect it but as master runners we have to address speed even to just to slow down its demise. Just comfortable longer strides than normal and more of them (up to 20) does the trick nicely. Anyway. Thats a suggestion for getting the mileage up. Might take a couple of months. Even if you take a month to get mileage back to current but feeling a lot easier, than you should be able to push up to the 70mpw plan.

demfad

Handy pacing calculator here.
Enter a marathon time and it will give workout paces. It also gives options to select temp/humidity and 4 different course types. Gives an idea of what course/day variables might cost.

jahaco

This is a brilliant thread. I coach marathon running with some success for myself and my charges but also am always keen to learn. I also have tried and failed so far to get below 3, although admittedly only really believed I could do it in the past 12 months and hadn't tried until recently. I am turning 60 in a few days and would dearly love to achieve it in Dublin this year with my 45th marathon. Most predictors have me at 3:01! I also feel that increased mileage in my case would help (got up to 75m or so for Rotterdam this year), and more long midweek progression runs. Totally agree that one should not compete in training.. most runs should be below LTR (i.e. below 10 mile pace and at 21k pace or slower).

Could someone put up my stats please?

5K: 19:22 (St. Anne's Parkrun 4/2015)
5 mile: 31:08 (Raheny 1/2016)
10K: 39:07 (BHAA K Club 4/2012), but come close again in 2015 and 2016.
10 mile: 1:04:19 (Frank Duffy 8/2015)
Half: 1:26:23 (Bohermeen 3/2015)
Marathon 3:03:19 (Rotterdam 4/2016) (2015: 2 x 3:07 in Rotterdam and Dublin)

Thanks a mill.

demfad

Name|5k|5m|10k|10m|HM|Mara|Target Race
McMillan |18:28|30:28|38:22|1:04:07|1:25:32|3:00:00|Ref Times
TbL |19:27|31:xx|39:30|1:04:xx|1:25:xx|3:05:xx|TBC 2016
FBOT|17:42|29:59|38:42|1:00:34|1:26:02|3:00:59|TBC
AMK|17:38|29:13|37:40|1:02:30|1:27:xx|3:00:36|DCM 2016
Tomwaits48|19:17|32:00|39:xx|1:05:45|1:28:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
Duanington|17:35|29:17|36:36|1:01:42|1:23:22|3:03:xx|Berlin 2016
MrMacPhisto|17:23|29:01|36:42|1:01:55|1:22:53|3:00:56|Valencia 2016
snailsong|19:06|31:49|39:11|N/A|1:28:20|3:06:52|TBC 2017
rooneyjm|19:35|N/A|39:20|1:08:xx|1:29:37|3:23:xx|DCM 2016
davedanon|18:34|31:34|39:51|1:06:21|1:30:30|3:14:18|Berlin 2016
Itziger|17:50|29:52|36:48|N/A|1:22:04|3:03:28|TBC 2016
Sandwell|17:24|28:57|37:10|0:59:29|1:22:xx|6N/A|TBC 2016
Tomred1N |19:01|32:25|41:40|1:05:57|1:28:30|3:12:41|TBC 2020
Ainsyjnr |18:32|30:07|36:50|1:02:24|1:24:04|3:01:46|TBC
Averagejoe123|17:47|30:26|38:41|1:04:45|1:27:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
Kemboi|18:00|29:50|38:00|1:05:50|1:25:30|3:07:xx|DCM 2016
CR 7|17:45|30:30|37:21|1:04:50|1:23:25|5:04:xx|TBC 2016
El Caballo|18:34|31:15|39:46|1:05:xx|1:26:26|3:15:29|TBC 2017
Bulmers74|18:54|31:46|39:33|1:06:00|1:26:27|3:08:36|TBC 2016
ger664|19:45|N/A|41:11|1:09:33|1:35:56|3:18:12|TBC 2017/18
Jahaco|19:22|31:08|39:07|1:04:19|1:26:23|3:03:19|DCM 2016
SlowTwitch|19:00|31:08|39:31|1:05:09|1:26:00|3:00:22|BetterLongDist
MediumTwitch|18:40|30:40|39:01|1:04:31|1:26:13|2:59:46|BetterMedDist
FastTwitcher|18:22|30:16|38:34|1:03:57|1:25:45|2:59:36|BetterShortDist

Done! Big jump up this year Jahaco. How was that achieved?

Edit: I've put in predicted equivalent performances for Fast, Medium and Short (distance) disposition runners (source: Maximum performance running). McMillan seems to be on the fast side....
All we need is a graph now....

(It's just as a reference for runners to see a matching pattern. If it's clouding the table ill take them off)

jahaco

Thanks demfad.

I tweaked our plan a bit to get in more hillwork early on and tried to balance out the sessions to maintain an 80:20 (easy:hard) split for the week. The mileage increased only slightly TBH. Didn't notice the heat at all in Rotterdam as was so focused on getting a PB. Psychologically hard hit by the 3h pacers coming by me with about 6-7 miles to go, but regrouped to focus on the PB.

ThebitterLemon

Itziger wrote: »

Broke 3 hrs in Rotterdam after 12 years and over 20 previous marathons.,

Shoot Slogger, I'm only 8 years in and 10 marathons....

Shoot Itziger, I'm about 11 years and nearly 120 marathons in...

TbL

rom

Tried to add this to the table but its not working for me

rom|17:42|30:29|n/a|1:02:18|1:26:59|2:54:21|London 2017


Have done 1:23 half in training. I never understand that I can do a good 5k and a good marathon but everything in the middle I am worse at. Why could that be?

For a 6:39 pace marathon I was doing easy running at 7:45+ even slower if I felt tired. Its always been PMP +1 min but I do it on HR of max -50 beats.

snailsong

ThebitterLemon wrote: »

Shoot Itziger, I'm about 11 years and nearly 120 marathons in...

TbL

Ultrapercy is 20 years racing marathons, I don't know how many. Rotterdam was another pb, 2:30:44.

He was disappointed, of course.
This may be significant.

snailsong

Name|5k|5m|10k|10m|HM|Mara|Target Race
McMillan |18:28|30:28|38:22|1:04:07|1:25:32|3:00:00|Ref Times
TbL |19:27|31:xx|39:30|1:04:xx|1:25:xx|3:05:xx|TBC 2016
FBOT|17:42|29:59|38:42|1:00:34|1:26:02|3:00:59|TBC
AMK|17:38|29:13|37:40|1:02:30|1:27:xx|3:00:36|DCM 2016
Tomwaits48|19:17|32:00|39:xx|1:05:45|1:28:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
Duanington|17:35|29:17|36:36|1:01:42|1:23:22|3:03:xx|Berlin 2016
MrMacPhisto|17:23|29:01|36:42|1:01:55|1:22:53|3:00:56|Valencia 2016
snailsong|19:06|31:49|39:11|N/A|1:28:20|3:06:52|TBC 2017
rooneyjm|19:35|N/A|39:20|1:08:xx|1:29:37|3:23:xx|DCM 2016
davedanon|18:34|31:34|39:51|1:06:21|1:30:30|3:14:18|Berlin 2016
Itziger|17:50|29:52|36:48|N/A|1:22:04|3:03:28|TBC 2016
Sandwell|17:24|28:57|37:10|0:59:29|1:22:xx|6N/A|TBC 2016
Tomred1N |19:01|32:25|41:40|1:05:57|1:28:30|3:12:41|TBC 2020
Ainsyjnr |18:32|30:07|36:50|1:02:24|1:24:04|3:01:46|TBC
Averagejoe123|17:47|30:26|38:41|1:04:45|1:27:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
Kemboi|18:00|29:50|38:00|1:05:50|1:25:30|3:07:xx|DCM 2016
CR 7|17:45|30:30|37:21|1:04:50|1:23:25|5:04:xx|TBC 2016
El Caballo|18:34|31:15|39:46|1:05:xx|1:26:26|3:15:29|TBC 2017
Bulmers74|18:54|31:46|39:33|1:06:00|1:26:27|3:08:36|TBC 2016
ger664|19:45|N/A|41:11|1:09:33|1:35:56|3:18:12|TBC 2017/18
Jahaco|19:22|31:08|39:07|1:04:19|1:26:23|3:03:19|DCM 2016
rom|17:42|30:29|n/a|1:02:18|1:26:59|2:54:21|London 2017
SlowTwitch|19:00|31:08|39:31|1:05:09|1:26:00|3:00:22|BetterLongDist
MediumTwitch|18:40|30:40|39:01|1:04:31|1:26:13|2:59:46|BetterMedDist
FastTwitcher|18:22|30:16|38:34|1:03:57|1:25:45|2:59:36|BetterShortDist

Adding rom.

ThePiedPiper

Good to see this very useful thread up and running again. One of the most important things, in my opinion, is consistency, having a decent bank of training done before even considering launching into a 12 or 16 week plan. I've found that 30ish miles a week is fine for ticking over, leaving the required jump up to 55+ mpw relatively easy.

Racing regularly was of massive benefit to me during training for my better marathons. Turning up on a marathon starting line last October led to me not really having any clue whether sub3 was a hard or soft target on the day.

Running at MP regularly works well for me. Too many LSRs 30+ seconds off required pace left me undercooked when I tried to cruise through marathon training cycles. From 16 weeks out, I'd recommend having a few MP miles every week, gradually increasing that until such point as 20 miles with 14 at MP is a doable session.

Don't be an ass on the day of the race. Having ran 3:00:21 in Apr 08, I set off like a lunatic in Berlin that September, through halfway in 1:27, crawled home in 3:05. Be sensible when you get yourself in good shape and have a proper race strategy.

As KC said a few pages back, push yourself and continue to challenge yourself. 3 years ago I set myself a target of PBing by 8 minutes to run 2:50, and focused training got me there. Playing safe and waiting for it to happen isn't going to work, you have to go out and work towards that target.

I've set myself the preliminary goal of low 2:5x for Warsaw in September. If things go well, I'll consider whether 2:48 is possible.

I'll just need to follow all my own advice!

ThebitterLemon

Another weeks done in pursuit of a return to fitness.

Day |Session |Notes |Total weekly miles|
Monday |3/5mile double easy |7 miles @ 8.17 & 4m @ 9.12| 11.00|
Tuesday|5k race|5k @ 19.53 |15.00|
Wednesday |3/5easy double| 6m@8.58 & 5m @ 8.38|26.00
Thursday |3/5easy double | 7m @ 8.28 & 3m @ 10.00|36.00|
Friday |2m wu/cd with 3 x 8 mins @ 6.40 off 3 mins recovery|6.33, 6.31, 6.30 |42.00|
Saturday|unscheduled rest||42.00
Sunday |12m LR |12m @ 7.42|54.00

TbL

Ed Mc Groarty

I'm always reluctant to give advice mainly because I really don't know much about running and all that goes with it(especially compared to some of the very knowledgeable runners and coaches on here).
In my own expierence the main difference I made between a 3:00:05 in October.2015 and 2:54:26 May16 was was running mile repeats at up to 75sec faster than pmp. This gave me the confidence to hit 6.40s n the race without brickin' myself. I ran quiet a lot of medium long runs around 7 min mile and I also ran 26 mile and beyond in training Peaking at the conn ultra 3 weeks previous, meaning the distance never became a major factor just the pace.
Not sure if this will be any help to anyone.
Good luck in your goals.

dna_leri

Have been following this thread for the last while, good to see it back and active.
I am not committed to a sub-3 marathon but may get there sometime.
My distance PBs are:
5K 16:30 2013
5M/8K 28:25 2011
10K 35:50 2015
10M 1:03 2013
HM None
M None

My profile is clearly Fast Twitch, or at least I have not developed my slower twitch fibres.
Right now I am building my mileage, with a view towards a 10K in June.
The speed is there but not the endurance, however I do not want to lose the speed completely so I will try to keep in touch with it through strides.
All going well then, I will continue to build towards a 10M in the Summer and maybe even a half.

demfad

dna_leri wrote: »

Have been following this thread for the last while, good to see it back and active.
I am not committed to a sub-3 marathon but may get there sometime.
My distance PBs are:
5K 16:30 2013
5M/8K 28:25 2011
10K 35:50 2015
10M 1:03 2013
HM None
M None

My profile is clearly Fast Twitch, or at least I have not developed my slower twitch fibres.
Right now I am building my mileage, with a view towards a 10K in June.
The speed is there but not the endurance, however I do not want to lose the speed completely so I will try to keep in touch with it through strides.
All going well then, I will continue to build towards a 10M in the Summer and maybe even a half.

I was going to post something on fast twitch versus slow twitch and what that might mean to how training is approached. Canova states that elite 'endurance' oriented marathoners have up to 90% type 1 (slow) fibres. Fast oriented elite marathoners might have 2/3 type 1 and 1/4 type 2a (fast oxidative). The rest of us are anywhere in the full spectrum. I don't mean to sound jargony but the next part is important.
He says that Slow twitch guys' Anaerobic threshold (his term) is relatively close to their marathon pace. Stands to reason as the vast majority of muscle fibre used for both paces will be slow twitch for these runners. They will have relatively few type 2b fibres to make their AnT significantly faster than thier marathon pace. Therefore finding ways to increase their AnT will have a direct impact on their marathon pace. e.g improving max oxygen uptake if there is potential there. (e.g Krusty's recent marathons). Most will still need to fully develop the endurance potential of their slow fibres first though. (Slow twitchers should study Krusty's progression closely. What part of his journey are you at?)


On the other hand, relatively 'Fast twitch' marathon runners use more type 2a fibres to run at their AnT. They can't bring most of these type2b fibres to their marathon pace and therefore there is a bigger gap between their AnT pace and their marathon pace. Once they have built up general endurance, they should work at increasing the capacity of their fast fibres to use oxygen. They need to stay away from training that produces lactate especially closer to the marathon. According to Canova they should train at paces between 85% and 95-100% of their AnT at distances getting progressively longer. i.e these runners need to do more endurance training. This is even more the case for a 3hr marathon as this is significantly slower than even the Aerobic threshold. (2hr race pace).
My interpretation is they should work at bringing marathon pace closer to 2hr race pace by using endurance training NOT AnT training.


With this in mind: I think your own planned progression is correct. You're gradually working on oxidising those faster fibres and giving them endurance at progressivley longer distances which is what Canova is saying (I hope). For your 10k, training paces at closer to AnT are advisable.
To that end Canova (for 10k training) has a fast 10k run which is lenghtened every time (e.g by 2k and trying to maintain the same pace). E.g 12,14,..20k. His athletes do up to 20k. You could do up to 16k. This will oxidise some 'faster' fibres and give them endurance for you. To further extend this endurance: for the 10m/HM a similar run would be 16k-25k + ; for the marathon, even longer e.g 20-32k. You should hit well below 3hrs IMO.
If you went straight to marathon training you'd bring less of those fibres to the party and those progressive long continuous runs would be necessarily a lot slower.
If you are using the the 10k as just a stepping stone, you'd be very biased to training on the endurance side of 10k pace and use strides/aerobic strides/hill sprints primarily to maintain speed and recruit faster fibres. If you wanted to reach 10k potential more training would need to be on the speed side but even still the majority should be on the endurance side.

Maybe some time in the future we'll see Krusty doing 1500 and 3000 metre training and yourself doing long fast endurance runs both as the best individual ways to bring the respective marathon times down.



Just to summarise for 3hr marathon:

Slow twitch (Under developed at all distances) = endurance training + aerobic strides + some AnT development

Fast twitch (Under developed at all distances)= endurance training + aerobic strides + some AnT development (or improve at progressively longer races and work up)

Slow twitch (well developed marathon)= focus on improving MP by improving pace at LT (improving max aerobic capacity etc).

Fast twitch (well developed shorter races): Focus on general endurance/progressively longer fast endurance runs. Use aerobic strides. Avoid generating much lactate especially close to the race. (or improve aerobically at progressively longer races)

Note* the above is for preparatory phases not specific phases.
** Krusty, sorry for using your (excellent) progression as an example.
*** DNA also

EDIT:

e.g fast-twitch main focus progressions:

1. develop general endurance + start to develop endurance at Aerobic threshold/2hr race pace (45-70+ mins)
2. Progressively develop endurance at 95% MP e.g 20-32k.
3. Progressively develop endurance at MP

tomwaits48

Name|5k|5m|10k|10m|HM|Mara|Target Race
McMillan |18:28|30:28|38:22|1:04:07|1:25:32|3:00:00|Ref Times
TbL |19:27|31:xx|39:30|1:04:xx|1:25:xx|3:05:xx|TBC 2016
FBOT|17:42|29:59|38:42|1:00:34|1:26:02|3:00:59|TBC
AMK|17:38|29:13|37:40|1:02:30|1:27:xx|3:00:36|DCM 2016
Tomwaits48|19:17|31:43|39:50|1:05:45|1:28:37|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
Duanington|17:35|29:17|36:36|1:01:42|1:23:22|3:03:xx|Berlin 2016
MrMacPhisto|17:23|29:01|36:42|1:01:55|1:22:53|3:00:56|Valencia 2016
snailsong|19:06|31:49|39:11|N/A|1:28:20|3:06:52|TBC 2017
rooneyjm|19:35|N/A|39:20|1:08:xx|1:29:37|3:23:xx|DCM 2016
davedanon|18:34|31:34|39:51|1:06:21|1:30:30|3:14:18|Berlin 2016
Itziger|17:50|29:52|36:48|N/A|1:22:04|3:03:28|TBC 2016
Sandwell|17:24|28:57|37:10|0:59:29|1:22:xx|6N/A|TBC 2016
Tomred1N |19:01|32:25|41:40|1:05:57|1:28:30|3:12:41|TBC 2020
Ainsyjnr |18:32|30:07|36:50|1:02:24|1:24:04|3:01:46|TBC
Averagejoe123|17:47|30:26|38:41|1:04:45|1:27:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
Kemboi|18:00|29:50|38:00|1:05:50|1:25:30|3:07:xx|DCM 2016
CR 7|17:45|30:30|37:21|1:04:50|1:23:25|5:04:xx|TBC 2016
El Caballo|18:34|31:15|39:46|1:05:xx|1:26:26|3:15:29|TBC 2017
Bulmers74|18:54|31:46|39:33|1:06:00|1:26:27|3:08:36|TBC 2016
ger664|19:45|N/A|41:11|1:09:33|1:35:56|3:18:12|TBC 2017/18
Jahaco|19:22|31:08|39:07|1:04:19|1:26:23|3:03:19|DCM 2016
rom|17:42|30:29|n/a|1:02:18|1:26:59|2:54:21|London 2017
SlowTwitch|19:00|31:08|39:31|1:05:09|1:26:00|3:00:22|BetterLongDist
MediumTwitch|18:40|30:40|39:01|1:04:31|1:26:13|2:59:46|BetterMedDist
FastTwitcher|18:22|30:16|38:34|1:03:57|1:25:45|2:59:36|BetterShortDist

fixing my 5 mile time

Run and Jump

Name|5k|5m|10k|10m|HM|Mara|Target Race
McMillan |18:28|30:28|38:22|1:04:07|1:25:32|3:00:00|Ref Times
TbL |19:27|31:xx|39:30|1:04:xx|1:25:xx|3:05:xx|TBC 2016
FBOT|17:42|29:59|38:42|1:00:34|1:26:02|3:00:59|TBC
AMK|17:38|29:13|37:40|1:02:30|1:27:xx|3:00:36|DCM 2016
Tomwaits48|19:17|32:00|39:xx|1:05:45|1:28:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
Duanington|17:35|29:17|36:36|1:01:42|1:23:22|3:03:xx|Berlin 2016
MrMacPhisto|17:23|29:01|36:42|1:01:55|1:22:53|3:00:56|Valencia 2016
snailsong|19:06|31:49|39:11|N/A|1:28:20|3:06:52|TBC 2017
rooneyjm|19:35|N/A|39:20|1:08:xx|1:29:37|3:23:xx|DCM 2016
davedanon|18:34|31:34|39:51|1:06:21|1:30:30|3:14:18|Berlin 2016
Itziger|17:50|29:52|36:48|N/A|1:22:04|3:03:28|TBC 2016
Sandwell|17:24|28:57|37:10|0:59:29|1:22:xx|6N/A|TBC 2016
Tomred1N |19:01|32:25|41:40|1:05:57|1:28:30|3:12:41|TBC 2020
Ainsyjnr |18:32|30:07|36:50|1:02:24|1:24:04|3:01:46|TBC
Averagejoe123|17:47|30:26|38:41|1:04:45|1:27:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
Kemboi|18:00|29:50|38:00|1:05:50|1:25:30|3:07:xx|DCM 2016
CR 7|17:45|30:30|37:21|1:04:50|1:23:25|5:04:xx|TBC 2016
Run and Jump|19:25|33:29|41:22|1:07:09|1:28:51|3:26:14|TBC 2017
El Caballo|18:34|31:15|39:46|1:05:xx|1:26:26|3:15:29|TBC 2017
Bulmers74|18:54|31:46|39:33|1:06:00|1:26:27|3:08:36|TBC 2016
ger664|19:45|N/A|41:11|1:09:33|1:35:56|3:18:12|TBC 2017/18
Jahaco|19:22|31:08|39:07|1:04:19|1:26:23|3:03:19|DCM 2016
rom|17:42|30:29|n/a|1:02:18|1:26:59|2:54:21|London 2017
SlowTwitch|19:00|31:08|39:31|1:05:09|1:26:00|3:00:22|BetterLongDist
MediumTwitch|18:40|30:40|39:01|1:04:31|1:26:13|2:59:46|BetterMedDist
FastTwitcher|18:22|30:16|38:34|1:03:57|1:25:45|2:59:36|BetterShortDist

I feel my marathon PB is soft compared to my shorter race PBs, and even those are mostly from hilly courses in the Phoenix Park such as the Race Series. I'm aiming to get under 3:15 or even close to 3:10 at DCM 2016 and then having a proper crack at sub-3 in 2017.

dna_leri

Thanks demfad - that's a good perspective.

Currently I am increasing my long run, now up to my previous max of 25K, with a faster finish every 2nd week.
I have 1 session a week alternating a tempo run and 10K paced long-intervals e.g. 6x1ml.
I have one longish easy run (c15K) and 1 steady run 10-12K, with strides on 1 of those days.
2 other days are recovery +1 rest day - in the future there is opportunity to increase these but not yet.

I will think about the plan again, based on your input.