The Sub 3 Support Thread

Gavlor

davedanon wrote: »

doesn't the SLR take care of that though? I remember seeing the MLR in P&D plans and groaning at the mere prospect of running 15 miles on a Wednesday, after a tempo on the Tuesday and with a track session to come on the Thursday. Would a double on the Wednesday achieve the same effect, do you reckon?

LSR takes care of it to a point in my opinion.

I'm sure doubles would have the same effect but there ain't no way I'm running twice a day!

overpronator

FBOT01 wrote: »

https://ef0fa82a828642ab5cb8159b16e1292993008988.googledrive.com/host/0B4s18e_90OPWNmlIblJzWnI0aWs/RunningStuff/MarathonTrainingPlans/TrainingPlans/HansonM_20w_60-80mpw.pdf

This looks great. I think ill give it a go.

28064212

davedanon wrote: »

doesn't the SLR take care of that though? I remember seeing the MLR in P&D plans and groaning at the mere prospect of running 15 miles on a Wednesday, after a tempo on the Tuesday and with a track session to come on the Thursday. Would a double on the Wednesday achieve the same effect, do you reckon?

Thursday is a recovery day in P&D. The MLR is to boost endurance, doing a long run on legs tired from Tuesday's session.

And P&D make the point that the Sunday run is an LR, not an SLR. While you should start it slow, by 8k you should be up to PMP+20%, and the last 8k should be at PMP+10%. The LR is not about "time on your feet" in P&D

Krusty_Clown

davedanon wrote: »

Can someone answer a question for me? What is the point of the midweek MLR? Is it solely to bulk up the overall volume, or does it have some other specific purpose?

Non-scientific answer, but I reckon doing a long run once a week trains you to... do a long run once a week. You get a whole week to recover from the previous long run, before repeating the cycle (with obvious mid-week running stresses thrown in). That mid-week medium long run creates endurance adaptations that you wouldn't otherwise get. Your body learns to cope with the additional volume and forces additional recovery patterns. In other words, you gain endurance. Sure, you can probably get by without it, but then your marathon becomes a game of survival (can you hang on to the pace without flagging?), rather than one of control (is it too early to push for home?). It stops you thinking about a marathon as a really long race, and allows you to think of the marathon as just another distance (albeit at a slower pace), and when you want to run good marathons, that's the frame of mind you have to get into.

Unrelated, but I think Dublin Runner touched on this before, but while the Steve Magness marathon plan probably isn't suitable for someone shooting to break three hours, it does achieve some things which can be helpful to anyone considering a marathon:
1) A long run is just another type of run. After the initial adaptations, you need to add 'stuff' to make it useful and relevant (like finishing fast, or strides, or longer pickups, or alternating paces). I'd imagine that most runners chasing sub-3 wouldn't have significant challenges with completing a long run at easy pace every week, so the benefit of going out for an easy 18-20 are pretty marginal. It's time to start looking for added value.
2) It removes the mysticism surrounding marathon pace. We attach far too much significance to the letters MP, such that it drives fear into our hearts when we come across it in the plan. The truth is that if you've trained for something like a 5k/10k before hitting your marathon plan, MP is pretty slow by comparison. How does it achieve that? Things like alternating tempo pace and marathon pace in a session (e.g. continuous 600m@T/1,200m @MP (progessing as the weeks go by) - during which you come to realize that the MP section of the run is the recovery. A great psychological boost. Or having more than one MP session in a week. For example in the final fortnight, you might do 12-15 miles@MP (broken up), and then do another 6-7@MP a few days later. It's no big thing - it's just marathon pace.

3) Variety is important - You've got to want to do your marathon training every week. 12 - 18 weeks is a long time to commit to something, so having good variety in the sessions will provide extra stimulus for both the body and the brain. For us non-elite runners, it's not all about the single race at the end. It's all about the improvement we get during training. Variety in the sessions you do from week to week, but also variety in the training plans you follow. If you've followed P&D for a coupe of years? Time to switch to Daniels. Or Magness. Or Hanson (though what three brothers from Oklahoma know about marathon running; I've no idea).

AuldManKing

overpronator wrote: »

Wouldnt mind taking a look at that plan! Would you have a link?

I asked my admin to do it last night - hopefully he got to it

demfad

El Caballo wrote: »

I know this might sound a bit mad for runners but there's no need to be so exacting on measurements in my opinion. There's also on top of that the fact that most of us will be tired on the long run day from the weekly mileage so 6:56 for MP could well be better than 6:42 some days. For a late October marathon, Temps will be much more forgiving than the summer training at MP most of the time. There is also no magic in hitting MP other than it is close to Aerobic Threshold, the difference between 10 seconds slower than PMP and PMP is miniscule in training effect but running to exact PMP on some days has a much bigger downside than running it slower for sub 3 runners because they could pass Aerobic threshold(2 hour pace) if the temps are hotter, the route is hilly or they are tired which changes the stimulus of the workout and therefore the structure of the week.

5 seconds too slow or 16 metres too short is something to maybe worry about on raceday but during training, the difference is so insignificant that their will be absolutely no difference because generally anywhere in the area of the effort/pace will give the same benefits.

I'd agree with that. Another reason would be also that you want to run at marathon effort which has the correct ratio of fuel sources (glycogen and fat) that will allow you run at this effort for the time it will take to complete the marathon. If you try and run at M pace on a hilly course, or hot day, or when tired then you may be training yourself for a fade.
Now you might deplete your glycogen supplies and get a benefit there for sure, but the training session will be too hard within your training week and tire you for the rest of the training.
There will come a time where you want to try and rest up and have effort and pace coordinated (on a decent day on a similar course to race day if poss). But even still if pace and effort don't coincide effort should take precedence. I would go by feel with an eye on the watch, but if an HRM can aid this then it can aid it.

demfad

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

1) A long run is just another type of run. After the initial adaptations, you need to add 'stuff' to make it useful and relevant (like finishing fast, or strides, or longer pickups, or alternating paces). I'd imagine that most runners chasing sub-3 wouldn't have significant challenges with completing a long run at easy pace every week, so the benefit of going out for an easy 18-20 are pretty marginal. It's time to start looking for added value.
2) It removes the mysticism surrounding marathon pace. We attach far too much significance to the letters MP, such that it drives fear into our hearts when we come across it in the plan. The truth is that if you've trained for something like a 5k/10k before hitting your marathon plan, MP is pretty slow by comparison. How does it achieve that? Things like alternating tempo pace and marathon pace in a session (e.g. continuous 600m@T/1,200m @MP (progessing as the weeks go by) - during which you come to realize that the MP section of the run is the recovery. A great psychological boost. Or having more than one MP session in a week. For example in the final fortnight, you might do 12-15 miles@MP (broken up), and then do another 6-7@MP a few days later. It's no big thing - it's just marathon pace.
....

Just to give another slant on these two suggestions:

A runner who found they didn't have an issue with marathon pace itself but still faded in a sub 3 attempt should focus more time on endurance (option 1).

A runner who tended to have more issue with feeling comfortable at MP but generally finds the LR pretty easy should focus on making MP feel easier by working on LT (option 2).

Both bases need to be covered but the emphasis should shift depending on the strenght/weakness of the individual.

FBOT01

AuldManKing wrote: »

I asked my admin to do it last night - hopefully he got to it

I am still drawing the line at applying your St Topez for Sunday. No means NO!!:D

AuldManKing

overpronator wrote: »

This looks great. I think ill give it a go.

Company for the Thursday MP sessions!

PaulieYifter

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Unrelated, but I think Dublin Runner touched on this before, but while the Steve Magness marathon plan probably isn't suitable for someone shooting to break three hours, it does achieve some things which can be helpful to anyone considering a marathon:
1) A long run is just another type of run. After the initial adaptations, you need to add 'stuff' to make it useful and relevant (like finishing fast, or strides, or longer pickups, or alternating paces). I'd imagine that most runners chasing sub-3 wouldn't have significant challenges with completing a long run at easy pace every week, so the benefit of going out for an easy 18-20 are pretty marginal. It's time to start looking for added value.
2) It removes the mysticism surrounding marathon pace. We attach far too much significance to the letters MP, such that it drives fear into our hearts when we come across it in the plan. The truth is that if you've trained for something like a 5k/10k before hitting your marathon plan, MP is pretty slow by comparison. How does it achieve that? Things like alternating tempo pace and marathon pace in a session (e.g. continuous 600m@T/1,200m @MP (progessing as the weeks go by) - during which you come to realize that the MP section of the run is the recovery. A great psychological boost. Or having more than one MP session in a week. For example in the final fortnight, you might do 12-15 miles@MP (broken up), and then do another 6-7@MP a few days later. It's no big thing - it's just marathon pace.

+1 on the Magness Plan. I wouldn't get near the mileage suggested in the plan but I used it to take the key elements out of it of which the above 2 shone through:

1. Long runs with "stuff"
2. Alternating workouts

I've gone through 3 cycles based on Magness so in the interest of variety I'm doing a different plan this time but again a lot of the long runs in it contain "stuff".

davedanon

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Non-scientific answer, but I reckon doing a long run once a week trains you to... do a long run once a week. You get a whole week to recover from the previous long run, before repeating the cycle (with obvious mid-week running stresses thrown in). That mid-week medium long run creates endurance adaptations that you wouldn't otherwise get. Your body learns to cope with the additional volume and forces additional recovery patterns. In other words, you gain endurance. Sure, you can probably get by without it, but then your marathon becomes a game of survival (can you hang on to the pace without flagging?), rather than one of control (is it too early to push for home?). It stops you thinking about a marathon as a really long race, and allows you to think of the marathon as just another distance (albeit at a slower pace), and when you want to run good marathons, that's the frame of mind you have to get into.

Unrelated, but I think Dublin Runner touched on this before, but while the Steve Magness marathon plan probably isn't suitable for someone shooting to break three hours, it does achieve some things which can be helpful to anyone considering a marathon:
1) A long run is just another type of run. After the initial adaptations, you need to add 'stuff' to make it useful and relevant (like finishing fast, or strides, or longer pickups, or alternating paces). I'd imagine that most runners chasing sub-3 wouldn't have significant challenges with completing a long run at easy pace every week, so the benefit of going out for an easy 18-20 are pretty marginal. It's time to start looking for added value.
2) It removes the mysticism surrounding marathon pace. We attach far too much significance to the letters MP, such that it drives fear into our hearts when we come across it in the plan. The truth is that if you've trained for something like a 5k/10k before hitting your marathon plan, MP is pretty slow by comparison. How does it achieve that? Things like alternating tempo pace and marathon pace in a session (e.g. continuous 600m@T/1,200m @MP (progessing as the weeks go by) - during which you come to realize that the MP section of the run is the recovery. A great psychological boost. Or having more than one MP session in a week. For example in the final fortnight, you might do 12-15 miles@MP (broken up), and then do another 6-7@MP a few days later. It's no big thing - it's just marathon pace.

3) Variety is important - You've got to want to do your marathon training every week. 12 - 18 weeks is a long time to commit to something, so having good variety in the sessions will provide extra stimulus for both the body and the brain. For us non-elite runners, it's not all about the single race at the end. It's all about the improvement we get during training. Variety in the sessions you do from week to week, but also variety in the training plans you follow. If you've followed P&D for a coupe of years? Time to switch to Daniels. Or Magness. Or Hanson (though what three brothers from Oklahoma know about marathon running; I've no idea).

Thanks, good post. All stuff I kind of know, I was playing devil's advocate a bit. My established routine is to do sessions on Tuesdays and Thursdays, so the MLR wouldn't really work in that framework. I followed a tweaked P&D plan for my last couple of marathons, incorporating the MP sections, fast-finish LRs, longer tempos etc, but without ever doing an MLR midweek. there never seemed to be a suitable day for it.

rooneyjm

Itziger wrote: »

No excuses for not hitting the 2.59 lads. But remember, NO ICE in the whiskey.

To speed up absorption of the steroids and shorten the detection
window, he dissolved the drugs in alcohol Chivas whiskey for men,
Martini vermouth for women.

From the Russkie doping lad in the NY Times.

Watch out, I made a doping comment a few pages back and got "an infraction" warning. No jokes allowed please

davedanon

rooneyjm wrote: »

Watch out, I made a doping comment a few pages back and got "an infraction" warning. No jokes allowed please

It's unproven speculation that's verboten, I think.

rooneyjm

Unproven speculation, that's this whole thread.

davedanon

No doping here, I hope.

davedanon

That journalist who took epo for that programme recently, his cycling performance improved by 7%. I checked afterwards, and a 7% improvement would bring me close to 3:00 (down from 3:14).

Itziger

davedanon wrote: »

That journalist who took epo for that programme recently, his cycling performance improved by 7%. I checked afterwards, and a 7% improvement would bring me close to 3:00 (down from 3:14).

Nobody would admit it, that's the problem. Of 100 fellas who have sub 3.05 times and are gunning for 2.xx, how many would accept a little chemical help?? Ya know, simple stuff, 2 dozen micro-doses. Imagine if a coach you trusted said here's something that will improve your training a lot. Recovery will be quicker, tempo will feel easier.

You telling me all 100 would say, no way..............

We'll all claim that we would but when push came to shove, I'd say you'd get a few would cave in.

Krusty_Clown

This is the sub-3 thread?

Itziger

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

This is the sub-3 thread?

I think I see what you're doing there Krusty!

But as we know, fellas from all ranges of ability have sinned. Maybe more in cycling for some reason.

I'm about to head out the door anyway, am pondering one of your T/MP mixed sessions! Fuelled by coffee, toast and ham.

Krusty_Clown

Itziger wrote: »

I'm about to head out the door anyway, am pondering one of your T/MP mixed sessions! Fuelled by coffee, toast and ham.

Just trying to keep things on track! Drugs and targeting sub-3 have nothing in common, so lets keep the drugs conversations to the numerous drugs threads.

Enjoy the run. Just heading out for a sunny coastal 15 myself. Worth mentioning that you can't just head out the door and knock out one of those T/MP sessions. You really have to build up to a stage where you can do them, and then progress them gradually. Typical progression (remember, this is aimed at 100+mpw marathoners) and interspersed with lots of other quality/mileage (so these aren't shattering sessions):
8 Miles of 800@MP/800 steady
5 Easy + 9 miles of 800 (slower than LT) / 800 @MP
4 Easy + 6 x 1M @MP/800 steady + 4 Easy
5 Easy + 5 x 1.5M @MP / 800 steady
5 x 2M@MP / 800 steady
7 Miles alternating 400@LT/1200@MP
4 x 3 miles @MP + 800 steady
7 Miles @MP with surge to LT for 1 minute every mile (taper session)

Itziger

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Just trying to keep things on track! Drugs and targeting sub-3 have nothing in common, so lets keep the drugs conversations to the numerous drugs threads.

Enjoy the run. Just heading out for a sunny coastal 15 myself. Worth mentioning that you can't just head out the door and knock out one of those T/MP sessions. You really have to build up to a stage where you can do them, and then progress them gradually. Typical progression (remember, this is aimed at 100+mpw marathoners) and interspersed with lots of other quality/mileage (so these aren't shattering sessions):
8 Miles of 800@MP/800 steady
5 Easy + 9 miles of 800 (slower than LT) / 800 @MP
4 Easy + 6 x 1M @MP/800 steady + 4 Easy
5 Easy + 5 x 1.5M @MP / 800 steady
5 x 2M@MP / 800 steady
7 Miles alternating 400@LT/1200@MP
4 x 3 miles @MP + 800 steady
7 Miles @MP with surge to LT for 1 minute every mile (taper session)

Super stuff. I will definitely look to incorporate some of this, I just like the idea of mixing paces so that MP becomes 'easy' in the mind and body. I won't be hitting 100 miles but will do about 70 or so.

In the Garmin Advanced Half plan there is a session I've enjoyed before and which I felt brought me on a lot where they have say w/u+15min T +3 or 4x1k @10k+15 min T+ c/d. It's funny cos the first T bit feels fast but after doing the 10k paced stuff, and even though the legs are much more tired, the second T bit feels ok. (NOTE: On a good day)

Itziger

One more thing for the KC man. What is 'Steady' for you in the above workouts?

Krusty_Clown

Itziger wrote: »

One more thing for the KC man. What is 'Steady' for you in the above workouts?

When doing those sessions, I wouldn't be too rigid about what steady means (wouldn't be checking splits or GPS average pace), but it's slower than marathon pace, and faster than easy. So if marathon pace were about 5:50/mile, steady would probably end up somewhere between 6:15 and 6:30/mile. Eventually you just get into a rhythm, of running at MP, then just easing back to steady pace, without focusing too much on the numbers. The jump back from steady to MP shouldn't feel like a massive amount of extra effort.

sideswipe

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Just trying to keep things on track! Drugs and targeting sub-3 have nothing in common, so lets keep the drugs conversations to the numerous drugs threads.

Enjoy the run. Just heading out for a sunny coastal 15 myself. Worth mentioning that you can't just head out the door and knock out one of those T/MP sessions. You really have to build up to a stage where you can do them, and then progress them gradually. Typical progression (remember, this is aimed at 100+mpw marathoners) and interspersed with lots of other quality/mileage (so these aren't shattering sessions):
8 Miles of 800@MP/800 steady
5 Easy + 9 miles of 800 (slower than LT) / 800 @MP
4 Easy + 6 x 1M @MP/800 steady + 4 Easy
5 Easy + 5 x 1.5M @MP / 800 steady
5 x 2M@MP / 800 steady
7 Miles alternating 400@LT/1200@MP
4 x 3 miles @MP + 800 steady
7 Miles @MP with surge to LT for 1 minute every mile (taper session)

Great stuff, plenty of stuff to keep long runs interesting there in future.
One bone to pick though- your Hanson reference had the mbop tune in my head all evening yesterday- not cool!!

ger664

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Just trying to keep things on track! Drugs and targeting sub-3 have nothing in common, so lets keep the drugs conversations to the numerous drugs threads.

Enjoy the run. Just heading out for a sunny coastal 15 myself. Worth mentioning that you can't just head out the door and knock out one of those T/MP sessions. You really have to build up to a stage where you can do them, and then progress them gradually. Typical progression (remember, this is aimed at 100+mpw marathoners) and interspersed with lots of other quality/mileage (so these aren't shattering sessions):
8 Miles of 800@MP/800 steady
5 Easy + 9 miles of 800 (slower than LT) / 800 @MP
4 Easy + 6 x 1M @MP/800 steady + 4 Easy
5 Easy + 5 x 1.5M @MP / 800 steady
5 x 2M@MP / 800 steady
7 Miles alternating 400@LT/1200@MP
4 x 3 miles @MP + 800 steady
7 Miles @MP with surge to LT for 1 minute every mile (taper session)

Great stuff in there. I have done that sessions as a 400LT/800 MP sessions found it to be one best for getting me up to a prescribed pace.

rom

Itziger wrote: »

Nobody would admit it, that's the problem. Of 100 fellas who have sub 3.05 times and are gunning for 2.xx, how many would accept a little chemical help?? Ya know, simple stuff, 2 dozen micro-doses. Imagine if a coach you trusted said here's something that will improve your training a lot. Recovery will be quicker, tempo will feel easier.

- There is and its called sleep :pac: :pac: :pac:

Itziger

rom wrote: »

- There is and its called sleep :pac: :pac: :pac:

That's one of the things I'm good at fortunately. Usually get my 8 hours, sometimes more.

Jmcmen

AuldManKing wrote: »

Sure am - I think Spollo is too. Injuries all cleared up.
You're keeping quiet.

My hip is only getting right now since last August. Havent ran more than 6m since then, gone a long way back but going to get back on the horse again now.

Hoping DCM will be my comeback

Should be good numbers so for the long runs

ploughon

Hi Folks,
brilliant to see this thread getting busy again.

Thanks for the great advice all.

I 'm planning a 2 something marathon this Autumn (as opposed to a sub 3!!).
Ran 3.06 in Galway last Oct, so hoping another solid training cycle will get me across the line on schedule.

My times if someone could please add them to the table are ;
5k 19.22
10k 39.56
1/2 1.28
Mar 3.06

Good timing folks for us...we have the Olympics to keep us motivated over the Summer...we might even get some inspiration from the Euros too!!:)

I haven't decided on a race yet, either Galway or DCM , not sure.

Best of luck to everyone with their training

tomwaits48

19:25 in a 5k last night...making the step to mid 18s in line with a sub 3 marathon standard seems a tall order right now! On target for 3.10ish this year on that basis. Will keep trucking along in training for now.