The Sub 3 Support Thread

dna_leri

conavitzky wrote: »

It resulted in 4 first time marathoners breaking 3 with times ranging from 2:52 to 2:58.
I am by no means recommending what we did, but it got the end result.I know we were all on the edge of being injured / overtrained. Hoping to run again this year. Will tweak the coaches plan to suit myself this year. The one drawback to training in a group was that sessions often ended up as races. I will also try and avoid that this year. Anyway enough rambling.

Great insights Con. Looking forward to see what you all do this year.
What sort of break did you all take after the marathon, was there an element of burn-out?

demfad

conavitzky wrote: »

Hi folks, very interesting and informative thread. A breath of fresh air. I managed to break the three hours in Dublin last year at the first hurdle and will give an insight into what training i did. The first thing I think that stood to me was i was never in a rush to do the marathon. I didnt want to do one until i had sustained injury free mileage built up over a long period. I managed to stay injury free from June 14 up until the marathom in October 16.
I averaged 70-80k per week for a year with two sessions and a long run every week. We then upped the mileage and long run to run the national half in August. Lots of 8-10k tempos, 100m strides and long runs at a fair clip. It wasnt until after the half that we decided to run the marathon. Mileage peaked at approx 120k per week for approximately 6 weeks with long runs ranging between 32-37k. These long runs were at a pace that would fly in the face of all advice i have seen. They started off conservatively (first 5-6k), the middle miles were at marathon pace whilst the last 10-15 k progressed from marathon pace to half pace to 10k pace (crazy sh*t tbh). The three 23 milers I done ended up being at my marathon average pace. We also managed to fit in a midweek mlr peaking at 24k which was also around marathon pace or slightly slower and a 10-12k tempo on a Friday. We raced a 10k in training on the Sunday before the race (one of the lads pb'd!) Our coach said it was to deplete carb stores before cutting out carbs for three days. We then reintroduced carbs on the wednesday evening.
I remember 5k into the race saying to one of the lads that i felt like crap. We went out at a crazy pace passing halfway in 1:25. Passed 20 miles at 2:10 and started to suffer then. Finished in 2.54.32. Looking back now i was seriously overcooked on race day. Although we often say was that was the reason we broke the 3 because of the intensity of the training, that we were battle hardened. Could we have gone faster with more conservative sustainable training? I dont know. It resulted in 4 first time marathoners breaking 3 with times ranging from 2:52 to 2:58.
I am by no means recommending what we did, but it got the end result.I know we were all on the edge of being injured / overtrained. Hoping to run again this year. Will tweak the coaches plan to suit myself this year. The one drawback to training in a group was that sessions often ended up as races. I will also try and avoid that this year. Anyway enough rambling.

Great post. I think that the long runs were built up over a period of time at pace to allow them to be that specific. The MLR is also a little slower than MPace again on the endurance side, but still fast enough to be specific.
The 10-12k tempo run is faster (i assume) than MP, but as its continouos it stops you from running two hard.
The paces look mental compared to Day MP but if you look closer I think you (may have been overcooked) but definately attacked the race too hard.
I believe (have never ran) an even effort race in Dublin will see a negative split as the first half is hillier and slower than the second (open to correction here). If 85 minutes was correct race effort you would have ran 82-3 for the second half and came home with 1:47-8. The fact that you clearly had the endurance to run the full distance at MP and still suffered from 20 miles on suggests going out too hard also. The second half was 5 mins slower than the first but should have been 2 mins faster (if first half is harder).
If that asessment is ball park correct and taking into account you felt over cooked then your potential was closer to 2:50-1.
That would make the pinnacle week of the schedule something like:

Run 1: 23 miles: 5-6 k controlled building to 95% MP for the mid section last 10-15k progressing to HM and beyond.
Run 2: 24k @ 90-95% MP
Run 3: 10-12k @ 105% MP

I think the biggest limiter to the sub 3 is endurance and that schedule very specifically nails it. Note that the main weekly run targets endurance. Too often LT is over emphasised for sub 3 when endurance is lacking.
Note the slow controlled build up. You need to be strong to manage that.
Im sure if Canova suggested a sub 3hr, or sub 2:50 schedule it wouldnt be far off what Con did.

Clearlier

demfad wrote: »

I think the biggest limiter to the sub 3 is endurance and that schedule very specifically nails it. Note that the main weekly run targets endurance. Too often LT is over emphasised for sub 3 when endurance is lacking.
Note the slow controlled build up. You need to be strong to manage that.
Im sure if Canova suggested a sub 3hr, or sub 2:50 schedule it wouldnt be far off what Con did.

I had very similar thoughts although I do think that the reported sessions were run a bit too fast and a bit too far.

As a measure of how well the program worked I'd be interested to know if there were just the 4 of them or if others started out as well and either got injured or didn't run well. Also, I'd be looking at the PB's and running history of the 4 to see how well their times lined up.

conavitzky

I kind of thought my post might open up some polarised debate! TBH I change my opinion myself every time I think about it. I will try and get back to answering some of the questions when I have some time later. Opinions here might help inform which way my training is structured this year!

demfad

Clearlier wrote: »

I had very similar thoughts although I do think that the reported sessions were run a bit too fast and a bit too far.

As a measure of how well the program worked I'd be interested to know if there were just the 4 of them or if others started out as well and either got injured or didn't run well. Also, I'd be looking at the PB's and running history of the 4 to see how well their times lined up.

The success of the long build up would determine if the schedule was followed I guess. If it was up to me and a runner he/she looked like they might not be strong enough for the prescribed specific stuff then those sessions would be tweaked/softened accordingly. It might not necessariy be a case of throw the eggs at the wall and see which ones dont break. Sure well see what the man himself says when he gets back later.

conavitzky

dna_leri wrote: »

Great insights Con. Looking forward to see what you all do this year.
What sort of break did you all take after the marathon, was there an element of burn-out?

I personally took two days off and was back running on the third day. Felt good and started introducing speedwork again in prep for xc in January. About 4 weeks after Dublin I got a lactate test done to define training zones for the next portion of training. The results showed I was probably overcooked. My resting lactate was higher than my blood lactate result from the final interval (mile at 5k pace). I backed off for 11 days and came back into it slowly running sessions well within myself. Come Christmas I had come around and ran quite well in masters XC.
Two of the other lads were similar to me. In fact they ran Connacht XC the week after the marathon. They recovered quicker and are running ahead of what they were for this time last year.
The slowest of the four to break 3hrs has been injured on and off. He was due to race a marathon in May but missed it due to injury. He came at the marathon from a different angle. He had been running 100-120k slowly – steady for approx 5-6 months. He started marathon specific training with us after the national half which he didn’t run.
One of the other lads in the club who has run several marathons took 14 days off. No running, x training, etc. He is now back in the form of his life and injury free. A lesson to be learned here methinks!
One of the things I noted last year was we all ran the log runs at the same pace and finished together. Our most experienced runner who finished with a 2:44 was obviously more in his comfort zone on the Long runs than us other 4 marathon virgins and possibly got more benefit from these runs.
From my own perspective, i will be coming at it from a different angle this year. I have been unable to do any VO2 sessions or race as of yet due to a medical issue (hoping to get all clear in next few weeks). All off my sessions have been half marathon, marathon pace, threshold pace with strides thrown in. I don’t think I have the speed I had last year which is probably resulting in my slower paces feeling harder than normal. I have kept the mileage up however and know what lies ahead training wise (we have been told that our bodies will be able to take more mileage this year)!
We all hope that we can go faster this year but I think we all know we have to be a bit more sensible in our approach. I know myself my last 37k run was on 11th October. I ran it in 2:32 and I was hopping off the road. I can’t help but feel I left a bit of myself behind on the back roads that day. The actual marathon was a grind compared to that run.

dublin runner

conavitzky wrote:

Hi folks, very interesting and informative thread. A breath of fresh air. I managed to break the three hours in Dublin last year at the first hurdle and will give an insight into what training i did. The first thing I think that stood to me was i was never in a rush to do the marathon. I didnt want to do one until i had sustained injury free mileage built up over a long period. I managed to stay injury free from June 14 up until the marathom in October 16. I averaged 70-80k per week for a year with two sessions and a long run every week. We then upped the mileage and long run to run the national half in August. Lots of 8-10k tempos, 100m strides and long runs at a fair clip. It wasnt until after the half that we decided to run the marathon. Mileage peaked at approx 120k per week for approximately 6 weeks with long runs ranging between 32-37k. These long runs were at a pace that would fly in the face of all advice i have seen. They started off conservatively (first 5-6k), the middle miles were at marathon pace whilst the last 10-15 k progressed from marathon pace to half pace to 10k pace (crazy sh*t tbh). The three 23 milers I done ended up being at my marathon average pace. We also managed to fit in a midweek mlr peaking at 24k which was also around marathon pace or slightly slower and a 10-12k tempo on a Friday. We raced a 10k in training on the Sunday before the race (one of the lads pb'd!) Our coach said it was to deplete carb stores before cutting out carbs for three days. We then reintroduced carbs on the wednesday evening. I remember 5k into the race saying to one of the lads that i felt like crap. We went out at a crazy pace passing halfway in 1:25. Passed 20 miles at 2:10 and started to suffer then. Finished in 2.54.32. Looking back now i was seriously overcooked on race day. Although we often say was that was the reason we broke the 3 because of the intensity of the training, that we were battle hardened. Could we have gone faster with more conservative sustainable training? I dont know. It resulted in 4 first time marathoners breaking 3 with times ranging from 2:52 to 2:58. I am by no means recommending what we did, but it got the end result.I know we were all on the edge of being injured / overtrained. Hoping to run again this year. Will tweak the coaches plan to suit myself this year. The one drawback to training in a group was that sessions often ended up as races. I will also try and avoid that this year. Anyway enough rambling.

You got a result you were happy with so in that respect it was a good result for you. That's the most important thing.

In reality though you completely overcooked the training, there's no way around that. You finished training, having left your best possible marathon result behind you by the looks of it.

Leave the racing (every long run by the looks of it) to race days, not training.

Just because it 'worked' doesn't mean it really 'worked' (if you get me!).

conavitzky

Clearlier wrote: »

I had very similar thoughts although I do think that the reported sessions were run a bit too fast and a bit too far.

As a measure of how well the program worked I'd be interested to know if there were just the 4 of them or if others started out as well and either got injured or didn't run well. Also, I'd be looking at the PB's and running history of the 4 to see how well their times lined up.

demfad wrote: »

The success of the long build up would determine if the schedule was followed I guess. If it was up to me and a runner he/she looked like they might not be strong enough for the prescribed specific stuff then those sessions would be tweaked/softened accordingly. It might not necessariy be a case of throw the eggs at the wall and see which ones dont break. Sure well see what the man himself says when he gets back later.

Lads, I think I covered the injury part with response to Dna. The expectations of where we would finish pretty much lined up. I know personally that endurance is my biggest weakness. My half PB from two years ago is 1:28 which I got down to 1:21 last year so possibly more to come by concentrating on runs at slower than marathon pace.

Runner 1 (running 7-8 years, structured training for 5)
Marathon 2:52 Half 1:18 10k 35 low
Runner 2 (me running 7-8 years, structured training for 5)
Marathon 2:54:32 Half 1:21:02 10k 35:28
Runner 3 (running 4 years structured training for 4)
Marathon 2:54:50 Half 1:20:54 10k 36:10
Runner 4 (running 4 years structured training for 4)
Marathon 2:58 Half n/a 10k 36ish
We all ran together up until about 20k when runner 4 went out the back. From about 24k mark Runner 1 started gradually pulling away from us all as did I from runner 3.
This year I am thinking about keeping long runs and tempos slower (tempos were around 36:30 - 37 for the 10k) and MLR's slightly faster. I found last year the MLR was the toughest run of the week because I was overcooked from the long run. My biggest issue at the minute is I dont really have a gauge of where I stand as I have been unable to race yet! So training has been more by feel than defined paces.

conavitzky

dublin runner wrote: »

You got a result you were happy with so in that respect it was a good result for you. That's the most important thing.

In reality though you completely overcooked the training, there's no way around that. You finished training, having left your best possible marathon result behind you by the looks of it.

Leave the racing (every long run by the looks of it) to race days, not training.

Just because it 'worked' doesn't mean it really 'worked' (if you get me!).

I get ya! I suppose it worked in that our goal was sub 3 but looking back there was probably more there. We were stepping into the unknown. As first timers we didnt have the wisdom that multiple marathoners have (from a training and race tactic viewpoint). I will be doing my second and last one this year if I stay injury free and hopefully the experience from last year will guide us all to a more sensible approach (and more PB's!).

conavitzky

Clearlier wrote: »

I had very similar thoughts although I do think that the reported sessions were run a bit too fast and a bit too far.

As a measure of how well the program worked I'd be interested to know if there were just the 4 of them or if others started out as well and either got injured or didn't run well. Also, I'd be looking at the PB's and running history of the 4 to see how well their times lined up.

A relevant point to your question Clearlier.
One of the other lads in the club who has run several marathons took 14 days off. No running, x training, etc. He is now back in the form of his life and injury free. A lesson to be learned here methinks!
One of the things I noted last year was we all ran the log runs at the same pace and finished together. Our most experienced runner who finished with a 2:44 was obviously more in his comfort zone on the Long runs than us other 4 marathon virgins and possibly got more benefit from these runs.

conavitzky

davedanon wrote: »

Yes, true. But many do this all year-round. 70-80k would be low enough mileage for a lot of sub-3 runners.

I have to agree with dave here jm.

Itziger

I know myself my last 37k run was on 11th October. I ran it in 2:32 and I was hopping off the road. I can’t help but feel I left a bit of myself behind on the back roads that day. The actual marathon was a grind compared to that run.

Con, did ya ever think that this was the day you should've and could've run a marathon pb? The way you describe it, sounds like you were on a slight downslope from then on.

ploughon

Hi Averagejoe123,

I'm looking at possibly doing the P&D 70 mile 18 week plan for Dublin 2016. This would have the plan starting June 27 if no buffer weeks are used. For people who have used the plan before what sort of mileage did you in the weeks before starting? The first 4 weeks of the plan are 53,56,58,62 so I was thinking 40, 45, 50 which would be pretty much in line with current mileage. This would leave an extra week as a buffer if needed. Does this sound about right


I hope your build up is going well.
I've used this plan for my last two marathons, I'd advise you to pick up a copy of the book "Advanced Marathoning", the book will give you some great insights on how to use the plan.
One session that I found to be a shock to the system, is in week 2, a 16 mile run with 8 at marathon pace. What I did last time around and it worked well for me (in that I didnt end up injured from pushing too hard too early), was to run the MP sessions by Heart Rate, and aiming to keep my HR at the top end of the right zone, rather than going for pace per mile. I found as the weeks went on, my MP and HR got closer and closer to my target MP.

I hope that makes sense.

Good luck with it.

rooneyjm

If conavitzky is anything to go by, run 50 miles a week for a year and then give it a crack.

ploughon

Is anyone thinking of having a go at breaking 3 in Galway this year??

ThebitterLemon

ploughon wrote: »

Is anyone thinking of having a go at breaking 3 in Galway this year??

Ploughon, I assume you mean the marathon tagged onto the Galway Bay Half?

I'd have the following concerns for anyone attempting this for the first time on this course:

- Small marathon field
- 4 laps might not suit everyone
- not much in the way of spectator support (if that's your thing)
- you will sharing the route with the halfers
- finally and most importantly if the weather doesn't play ball you're fooked. It's very exposed and it can get extremely windy.

Taking that into account I wouldn't chance it but it is an enjoyable run

TbL

ger664

Would agree with TBL and also add

- part is along the Salthill Prom and on poured concrete footpaths
- there is a turnaround. 4 times this will break your stride/rhythm especially on the last lap Mile 23-24

Gavlor

ploughon wrote: »

Is anyone thinking of having a go at breaking 3 in Galway this year??

Just to add, it's a mixture of full and half marathon runners so it will be fairly demoralising if you're under pressure.

the turn around point is at the bottom of a hill, not ideal as you know you'll have to run back towards the top!

ploughon

Thanks Folks for your replies.
All good points.

What do you reckon is the best course for an Autumn sub 3 attempt?

DCM ? or travel further afield?

Coffee Fulled Runner

A few from my club are doing Amsterdam nice and flat

davedanon

DCM absolutely not!

Awful course for pb purposes.

ploughon

A few from my club are doing Amsterdam nice and flat
Today 18:54

Thanks Coffee Fulled Runner.

Amsterdam sounds good, Oct 16th.
I must look at flights and hotels to see whats involved.
Do you know if your clubmates are booking a package deal or sorting out their own travel/accommodation?



DCM absolutely not!

Thanks Davedannon.
I've always struggled in DCM, maybe its time for me to try another course!

davedanon

ploughon wrote: »

DCM absolutely not!

Thanks Davedannon.
I've always struggled in DCM, maybe its time for me to try another course!

I've done DCM every year since 2009, and I've had 2 good runs!

Itziger

Valencia must be the flatest marathon going. 3rd Sunday of November normally.

PaulieYifter

San Sebastián gets my vote (I've run it twice) - I'd consider any of the flat German autumn marathons and previous research suggests Eindhoven is a better option than Amsterdam for a Dutch option.

28064212

davedanon wrote: »

DCM absolutely not!

Awful course for pb purposes.

Wouldn't go that far. There's definitely flatter out there, but don't underestimate Dublin.

• Familiarity with the course - personally I find this a psychological boost, knowing exactly when to push and when to back off
• Support (both general and specific - family/friends)
• Most importantly - staying at home. Flights, strange hotel, tourist activities, strange food etc. etc. all make for less than ideal preparation
• Weather - always going to be a bit of a lotto admittedly, but there are certainly worse places to run than Dublin in October

ThebitterLemon

PaulieYifter wrote: »

San Sebastián gets my vote (I've run it twice) - I'd consider any of the flat German autumn marathons and previous research suggests Eindhoven is a better option than Amsterdam for a Dutch option.

I'm seriously looking at San Seb (had entered it but didn't go coz I'd have to spend the weekend with PaulieY ), the only thing that's putting me off is that it's the last decent sub 3 marathon for the year, if you're sick or something else comes up on the day you're goosed and have no fall back options!?

TbL

ThebitterLemon

Itziger wrote: »

Valencia must be the flatest marathon going. 3rd Sunday of November normally.

Can be savage hot and windy, although that's where I did my PB

TbL

RayCun

ThebitterLemon wrote: »

I'm seriously looking at San Seb (had entered it but didn't go coz I'd have to spend the weekend with PaulieY ), the only thing that's putting me off is that it's the last decent sub 3 marathon for the year, if you're sick or something else comes up on the day you're goosed and have no fall back options!?

If you go into a race thinking, "I'll go for sub 3 here, but if I'm not feeling great I'll ease off and try again in X in a few weeks" then as soon as it starts to hurt you'll stop working. I think this is a particular issue for you because of your multi-marathon history.

Pick a race and do it, no second chances

ThebitterLemon

RayCun wrote: »

If you go into a race thinking, "I'll go for sub 3 here, but if I'm not feeling great I'll ease off and try again in X in a few weeks" then as soon as it starts to hurt you'll stop working. I think this is a particular issue for you because of your multi-marathon history.

Pick a race and do it, no second chances

Fair comment in my case but what if someone gets genuinely sick (as opposed to my head melt downs) on the day Ray?

TbL