The Sub 3 Support Thread

TFBubendorfer

Coffee Fulled Runner wrote: »

A lot of the race calculators estimate a sub 64 minutes 10mile or a sub 85 half should be good enough for a sub 3 marathon. What's the feeling here on it for a first time marathon? Too much to ask not knowing how you'd react on that kind of distance?

Sub-85 half seems to be the sweet spot for many runners though it is different for everyone. I know runners who had to get their half time down to 82 and others only needed 87 for a successful sub-3.

Also, few runners are able to run their first marathon up to their potential. It takes a bit of experience usually.

Itziger

Coffee Fulled Runner wrote: »

A lot of the race calculators estimate a sub 64 minutes 10mile or a sub 85 half should be good enough for a sub 3 marathon. What's the feeling here on it for a first time marathon? Too much to ask not knowing how you'd react on that kind of distance?

It's just too personal to quantify. My 1.22.04 wasn't good enough last year. Hoping the 1.22.38 of this year does the trick. But to reiterate, too many variables.

rooneyjm

You'ed have to take both courses into consideration. No point running a flat half and basing your predictions off that result if your marathon has hills.

Ecoenergy

I find that I can get closer to my predicted marathon time, the more marathons I do and hence more miles in the legs. For my first marathon, I was a long way off my predicted time based on my shorter race times, but after 5 marathons now I find I'm getting closer to that time. Endurance built up over time is definitely a factor for me.

DC.

Endurance & also experience

Krusty_Clown

Coffee Fulled Runner wrote: »

A lot of the race calculators estimate a sub 64 minutes 10mile or a sub 85 half should be good enough for a sub 3 marathon. What's the feeling here on it for a first time marathon? Too much to ask not knowing how you'd react on that kind of distance?

It tells you only that you are capable of a sub 85 half. Unless you train appropriately, there's no point in extrapolating. I'd be of the view that going out and running 12-15 miles (or 3 x 5 miles with 800m steady) at marathon pace in similar conditions (weather, hills) is a better predictor. If you can manage it, then you're in good shape to be there, or thereabouts. Yes, I realize that 85 minute half is going to be faster and theoretically tougher than a 12-15 mile run at PMP, but if you can run at target pace outside of race conditions 3-4 weeks out without a taper, that's a really positive sign. It suggests that well-rested - in suitable conditions, you could potentially hold that pace for 26.2 miles. Notice the sprinkling of words like 'if', 'thereabouts', 'sign', suggests', and 'potentially'! When targeting these milestone-based times, the only way to be sure, is to train for a goal significantly faster than the time-target (like 2:55). Of course, I say that as someone who is targeting a milestone-based goal and have made no such allowances!

summit2summit

Hi folks, just want to get an idea where people are with the training with ~90 days to go.

Where I am at the moment is 40 mile weeks up until end of July and will start 50 mile weeks for August.

Did my first long run today which was 18 miles and felt very good start to finish.

Ran the Docklands 5k in 18:05 and Clontarf half in 1:30:28 but found the conditions in the latter tough on the beach. To put into context, only top 39 got sub 1:30

Started a new high fat, high protein, low carb diet about two months ago too which is working out great. I feel I do not need food before any morning runs but am managing to have bags of energy while not having to worry about carrying gels etc

Thanks

S2S

ploughon

Hi Summit2summit,

sounds like you are on track with your 5K time and a solid half time in difficult conditions. Good going.

I'm in the 60mpw range, (using P+D 55-70), did one 21 miler and a 20 miler this Sun, next sun is shorter with 12 miles at mp, so that will be a good test of where I'm at.:eek:

Keep it going

ploughon

Hi Folks,

what do people think about warm up races?

If people do them, do you train straight through or do you do a short taper?

If you think a half might be a good idea, how many weeks out from the marathon would be optimal?

Thanks

summit2summit

ploughon wrote: »

Hi Folks,

what do people think about warm up races?

If people do them, do you train straight through or do you do a short taper?

If you think a half might be a good idea, how many weeks out from the marathon would be optimal?

Thanks

Some people see them as a distraction but personally, I think they act as a good benchmark as to where you are with your training. For example, I have signed up for the Dublin 10 mile and half (Aug 20/Sep24) and will use them to see if I am on track or not. The goal is roughly 63mins for the 10 mile and the half in 1:24. If I am in and around those times and with a bit of luck with injuries, I will feel like I have a good chance at a 2:59 come October.

I would take a very minor break from training (about two or three days) before the race day but I would try not let them have a massive impact on my training.

I think apart from those two races and perhaps one park run, my focus will be on banging out the miles, week in week out, with base runs, tempo runs, speed work etc.

Hope that helps?

Thanks
S2S

jonnner

ploughon wrote: »

Hi Folks,

what do people think about warm up races?

If people do them, do you train straight through or do you do a short taper?

If you think a half might be a good idea, how many weeks out from the marathon would be optimal?

Thanks

I used the P&D 55M plan for Dublin last year (2:58). I remember coming up to the weeks which had the tune-up races, I wasn't going to bother with an actual race but just run 10k race simulation on my own. I had a 10k PB of 39:45 at the time and figured with my heavy legs (theres no taper in the plan) I'd try run around the 40 min mark. At the last minute I found there was a 10K on locally so I headed off and ran a 37:02! I was absolutely shocked at my pace and got a huge confidence boost.
So my advice is stick to the plan if possible. Its been designed by people who know what they're doing. Theres no half marathon races in the plan.

Duanington

ploughon wrote: »

Hi Folks,

what do people think about warm up races?

If people do them, do you train straight through or do you do a short taper?

If you think a half might be a good idea, how many weeks out from the marathon would be optimal?

Thanks

I think they're important, a marathon training block can be a long aul slog and the opportunity to race can provide a mini focal point along the way.

The race environment is great for sharpening the mind etc and you can't replicate that kind of atmosphere in training.

I've raced once so far during this training block ( a miserable performance in the Mullingar 10) where I had an easier than normal few days beforehand as opposed to a taper as such - I won't be reading too much into the actual performance though.

For me, I think tune up races are a good thing but they shouldn't come at the expense of recovery or training.

I'm running a half 6 weeks out from my target marathon ( Berlin), given the workload of late, I'll probably have an easier week leading into the half, not sure if I would call it a taper as such though - min taper probably covers it alright.

The 6 weeks should let me recover and carry on with another few solid weeks of work before the main event

In short, I think racing is good, it sharpens the senses and provides race stimulus - an easy few days leading into the race should be fine for most

runrayrun

Hi All,

So I have been reading through the recent history of this and enjoying it. I am currently training for DCM doing the P&D 55 plan. I see a few of you have used this in the past. I have one previous marathon of 3.27.xx in Cork last year and am looking to go sub 3.10 this year with a view to going sub 3 next year.

It would be good to know how you felt during the MP runs in the plan. I did the 16 miles with 10 at MP last week and found it tough going. Another mile at that pace would have been tough! Is this normal or to be expected. My pace was between 7 and 7.10 min miles. All other runs are fine with no major issues, just wondering is the MP run suppose to be really tough?

Any feedback would be great.

jonnner

runrayrun wrote: »

Hi All,

So I have been reading through the recent history of this and enjoying it. I am currently training for DCM doing the P&D 55 plan. I see a few of you have used this in the past. I have one previous marathon of 3.27.xx in Cork last year and am looking to go sub 3.10 this year with a view to going sub 3 next year.

It would be good to know how you felt during the MP runs in the plan. I did the 16 miles with 10 at MP last week and found it tough going. Another mile at that pace would have been tough! Is this normal or to be expected. My pace was between 7 and 7.10 min miles. All other runs are fine with no major issues, just wondering is the MP run suppose to be really tough?

Any feedback would be great.

I'm at the same stage of the plan as you. I struggled a little with the previous MP run but flew through last weekends one. How did your previous one go?
You may just have had a bad day, and theres still plenty of weeks to improve fitness.

runrayrun

Previous ones went well, I mean it wasn't easy but I was able to maintain pace without issue. It was the same Sunday, but again I don't think I could have pushed another 2 miles. Did you feel you could have done more at MP?

davedanon

jonnner wrote: »

I used the P&D 55M plan for Dublin last year (2:58). I remember coming up to the weeks which had the tune-up races, I wasn't going to bother with an actual race but just run 10k race simulation on my own. I had a 10k PB of 39:45 at the time and figured with my heavy legs (theres no taper in the plan) I'd try run around the 40 min mark. At the last minute I found there was a 10K on locally so I headed off and ran a 37:02! I was absolutely shocked at my pace and got a huge confidence boost.
So my advice is stick to the plan if possible. Its been designed by people who know what they're doing. Theres no half marathon races in the plan.

I take it you mean no taper for the tune-up race, rather than the marathon itself.

Also, more than one way to skin a cat. Most people would run a half 4-6 weeks out from a marathon: it's an accepted practice. That's not to say that P&D don't know their stuff. I've followed their plans myself. By the by, the 55 mile plan isn't designed with going sub-3 in mind. The 55-70 or even the 80 mile would be more appropriate. If you ran 2.58 off their 55m plan, and well done by the way, I'd say there's lots more there, if you want it, with a more testing plan.

davedanon

runrayrun wrote: »

Previous ones went well, I mean it wasn't easy but I was able to maintain pace without issue. It was the same Sunday, but again I don't think I could have pushed another 2 miles. Did you feel you could have done more at MP?

In my experience*, it always feels as though you've done as much as you can on a given day. You finish a run with 6@MP, and feel absolutely leathered. 4-6 weeks later you're doing 12-14@MP, and again feeling leathered. I wouldn't worry about how you feel too much, as long as you're doing the run at the required pace.

*Just to be clear: running since 2008, pb of 3.14

ger664

As regards tune up races I personally think that a 10 Miler gives the same feedback as a half marathon and has a much smaller effect on training and recovery. P&D has no tune up race longer then 15K maybe for good reason.

overpronator

Ive decided to take a lesson from previous marathon blocks and not race a half flat out. Whilst i totally agree with D that theyre a welcome break, for me personally theyre too hard to recover from. After a tough half im knackered for 2 weeks! Ive always ended up feeling very flat and niggly after them in marathon training too. Ive an entry for the RnR and will try to run it at around 6.35-6.40 pace as part of a 20 miler and see how it feels. Longest "mp" run so far is 10M as part of a 14M session. Ive also done one steady progression type 20 miler averaging low 7 min pace overall so hopefully ive built to the 20 with 13 well enough.
Plan is to rack up the consistent weeks as much as I can and race the Frank Duffy all out as i know ill recover better than that. That will be my pre Berlin indicator.

ploughon

jonnner wrote: »

I used the P&D 55M plan for Dublin last year (2:58). I remember coming up to the weeks which had the tune-up races, I wasn't going to bother with an actual race but just run 10k race simulation on my own. I had a 10k PB of 39:45 at the time and figured with my heavy legs (theres no taper in the plan) I'd try run around the 40 min mark. At the last minute I found there was a 10K on locally so I headed off and ran a 37:02! I was absolutely shocked at my pace and got a huge confidence boost.
So my advice is stick to the plan if possible. Its been designed by people who know what they're doing. Theres no half marathon races in the plan.

Thanks jonner, last year I ran the 10ks on my own on a local track, I'll try to make a local race this time around and see what happens. 2:58, great time

ploughon

runrayrun wrote: »

Hi All,

So I have been reading through the recent history of this and enjoying it. I am currently training for DCM doing the P&D 55 plan. I see a few of you have used this in the past. I have one previous marathon of 3.27.xx in Cork last year and am looking to go sub 3.10 this year with a view to going sub 3 next year.

It would be good to know how you felt during the MP runs in the plan. I did the 16 miles with 10 at MP last week and found it tough going. Another mile at that pace would have been tough! Is this normal or to be expected. My pace was between 7 and 7.10 min miles. All other runs are fine with no major issues, just wondering is the MP run suppose to be really tough?

Any feedback would be great.

Hi Runrayrun.

I'm no expert, but for what its worth...I have moved to running my MP runs with a heart rate monitor, and not letting my heart rate go beyond the top end of that zone. I would'nt worry about finding those runs difficult, you still managed to do it and your race is a long way off.
Really struggling with the MP runs might suggest you could think of including more MP runs or tempo runs in your training?
Or it might be many other variables that led you to feel under pressure that day...keep up the training and see how your next one goes.

Good luck with it

jonnner

davedanon wrote: »

I take it you mean no taper for the tune-up race, rather than the marathon itself.

Also, more than one way to skin a cat. Most people would run a half 4-6 weeks out from a marathon: it's an accepted practice. That's not to say that P&D don't know their stuff. I've followed their plans myself. By the by, the 55 mile plan isn't designed with going sub-3 in mind. The 55-70 or even the 80 mile would be more appropriate. If you ran 2.58 off their 55m plan, and well done by the way, I'd say there's lots more there, if you want it, with a more testing plan.

Yeah I mean no taper for the tune up races!
The reason I'm suggesting to stick to the plan is the guy is questioning himself already. If he starts moving away from the plan he may start questioning himself more.
For me I like to stick to the plan rigidly, then I know I'll have no questions of whether I did things right in the end. The 55M was my first time following a proper plan and it went well for me (3:36 to 2:58 in 12 months).
If I had run a half at the same stage that the plan shows 8-10k races I'd have had a real problem with recovery. I think there's a race 3 weeks out from target marathon! I think a good few people on here got sub 3 using the 55M plan by the way.
I'm using 55-70 plan for Dublin now. I'm not sure I have the time for more mileage (kids) but if you've any suggestions for "a more testing plan" I'd be delighted if you'd share. I haven't got a target set in stone yet but it will be sub 2:50 anyway.
And thanks for the compliment!

Bahanaman

jonnner wrote:

Yeah I mean no taper for the tune up races! The reason I'm suggesting to stick to the plan is the guy is questioning himself already. If he starts moving away from the plan he may start questioning himself more. For me I like to stick to the plan rigidly, then I know I'll have no questions of whether I did things right in the end. The 55M was my first time following a proper plan and it went well for me (3:36 to 2:58 in 12 months). If I had run a half at the same stage that the plan shows 8-10k races I'd have had a real problem with recovery. I think there's a race 3 weeks out from target marathon! I think a good few people on here got sub 3 using the 55M plan by the way. I'm using 55-70 plan for Dublin now. I'm not sure I have the time for more mileage (kids) but if you've any suggestions for "a more testing plan" I'd be delighted if you'd share. I haven't got a target set in stone yet but it will be sub 2:50 anyway. And thanks for the compliment!

That plan got me to my sub 2:55 last year in Frankfurt. It's tough finding the time with family stuff alright but if you can manage to get the runs done early in the morning before work and stuff like that it will stand to you. I found that I had to resist the urge to go for another run in the evenings! A tip I got about doing a half as a tune up is to do the first ten miles at marathon pace and then race a 5k to the finish. Haven't done it myself but hope to do it during this cycle. I'm prob gonna have roughly the same target as yourself for Dublin although I'd be delighted to get a pb on the day as Dublin is a good bit tougher than Frankfurt.

davedanon

jonnner wrote: »

Yeah I mean no taper for the tune up races!
The reason I'm suggesting to stick to the plan is the guy is questioning himself already. If he starts moving away from the plan he may start questioning himself more.
For me I like to stick to the plan rigidly, then I know I'll have no questions of whether I did things right in the end. The 55M was my first time following a proper plan and it went well for me (3:36 to 2:58 in 12 months).
If I had run a half at the same stage that the plan shows 8-10k races I'd have had a real problem with recovery. I think there's a race 3 weeks out from target marathon! I think a good few people on here got sub 3 using the 55M plan by the way.
I'm using 55-70 plan for Dublin now. I'm not sure I have the time for more mileage (kids) but if you've any suggestions for "a more testing plan" I'd be delighted if you'd share. I haven't got a target set in stone yet but it will be sub 2:50 anyway.
And thanks for the compliment!

Oh, I agree. Pick your plan, and stick to it. There's nothing worse than doubting the hard training you're doing is right for you. Rather I meant that there are many different approaches, but, once you've settled on one, as you say, it's important not to deviate. As to the P&D plan, it's something I remember the late lamented Meno saying to me, that the 55-70 plan wasn't really designed for sub-3, and I should be following the next one, the up-to-85. Now that I think about it, that sounds a bit strange. I'm sure many sub-3ers (such as yourself) never need or want to get near 85 miles a week. I must ask him about it next time I see him.

runrayrun

ploughon wrote: »

Hi Runrayrun.

I'm no expert, but for what its worth...I have moved to running my MP runs with a heart rate monitor, and not letting my heart rate go beyond the top end of that zone. I would'nt worry about finding those runs difficult, you still managed to do it and your race is a long way off.
Really struggling with the MP runs might suggest you could think of including more MP runs or tempo runs in your training?
Or it might be many other variables that led you to feel under pressure that day...keep up the training and see how your next one goes.

Good luck with it

Cheers ploughon, I tried the heart rate monitor for a while before but found it annoying. Not sure why. I think I might just be finding it difficult as the last marathon I did all my long runs at a v slow pace of 8:50s with no speed work on the long run at all. I am trying to make big gains this time though so I suppose the difficulty level is new to me.

ploughon

runrayrun wrote: »

Cheers ploughon, I tried the heart rate monitor for a while before but found it annoying. Not sure why. I think I might just be finding it difficult as the last marathon I did all my long runs at a v slow pace of 8:50s with no speed work on the long run at all. I am trying to make big gains this time though so I suppose the difficulty level is new to me.

Hi Runrayrun,
was the heart rate monitor "annoying" because of the fit?
a friend at work bought a new garmin with a heart rate monitor built into the watch, I think I will try one of those when I replace my old battered garmin.

Considering you did all your LSR without any MP or speed built into them, you will make big gains this time with your current plan... . Be patient, keep up the training and as you adjust to the higher mileage, your fitness will improve and those MP runs will feel more doable.

Still hard, but doable!

HurlyBurly

Just wondering does anyone target UK marathons (besides London) , seems like there's a good few "fast" ones. Manchester, Edinburgh?, Chester, Blackpool. Dunno if they'd work out much better price wise than travelling to the continent.

ploughon

HurlyBurly wrote: »

Just wondering does anyone target UK marathons (besides London) , seems like there's a good few "fast" ones. Manchester, Edinburgh?, Chester, Blackpool. Dunno if they'd work out much better price wise than travelling to the continent.

Hi HurlyBurly,

I know a few who ran Manchester this year.
They reckon its a great course for a PB. and said they'd go back.
I think it got warm towards the end of their race and there was some issue with the course having been short but that should be sorted now and shouldnt be an issue in the future.
Manchester is easy and relatively cheap to get to, I dont know about accommodation.
Its one I'd like to do in the future.

overpronator

davedanon wrote: »

Oh, I agree. Pick your plan, and stick to it. There's nothing worse than doubting the hard training you're doing is right for you. Rather I meant that there are many different approaches, but, once you've settled on one, as you say, it's important not to deviate. As to the P&D plan, it's something I remember the late lamented Meno saying to me, that the 55-70 plan wasn't really designed for sub-3, and I should be following the next one, the up-to-85. Now that I think about it, that sounds a bit strange. I'm sure many sub-3ers (such as yourself) never need or want to get near 85 miles a week. I must ask him about it next time I see him.

When Meno said 55-70 wasnt designed for sub 3 did he mean that its not enough volume? Think its more than enough personally but you need to be prepared and pretty fit going into it to reap the benefits. I needed it to get mine but plenty of people go sub 3 off far less training in terms of volume. I could never see myself following the 85 plan, id die of boredom if the exhaustion didnt get me first!!

Bahanaman

overpronator wrote:

When Meno said 55-70 wasnt designed for sub 3 did he mean that its not enough volume? Think its more than enough personally but you need to be prepared and pretty fit going into it to reap the benefits. I needed it to get mine but plenty of people go sub 3 off far less training in terms of volume. I could never see myself following the 85 plan, id die of boredom if the exhaustion didnt get me first!!

I got it using this plan last year. I was at the limit re mileage and time to do it. The marathon paced long runs as well as the mid week medium long runs were the key as far me at least. The weeks I got up to the 70 mile mark took a lot out of me. Anything more and I'd have been under pressure.