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The Sub 3 Support Thread
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Back to the old drawing board for me. The month in Spain was hot and humid and the running wasn't great. Probably a bit too much on the food and drink front too. The Garmin has decided to pack it in at a bad moment.
Tried, and I mean TRIED, a 30k run this morning. It was one of the worst runs I've ever had. Ever.
Walked the last 3k or so. Yes, it was hot. Yes, I should have gone out earlier - watched a bit of the Olympics from 3.30 to 4.30 - but the way I gave up and walked! Fcukin hell. I just lost the will. No twitch or stitch or anything. It was more mental I think. I'm 9 weeks out from a local marathon and if things don't improve soon I'll have to rethink target.
Also might have to get a blood test just in case there's something awry.
Join the older late developers in San Seb
Plenty of time
TbL0 -
ThebitterLemon wrote: »Join the older late developers in San Seb
Plenty of time
TbL
The target here refers to time rather than race! SS is working out awful expensive for me. Pisa would be fall back. Mid/late December and know the course from last year.0 -
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Part of the reason for the post-is self-motivated. I ran the R&R half recently, in 1:14:58 (albeit on an uphill course, into a head-wind on a warm day, in the middle of high mileage (making sure to line up all the excuses in a row!). That's nearly two minutes slower than my PB, and barely breaks into what I optimistically would hope will be close to marathon pace). If I felt that the best I could hope for is an equivalent time/performance for that half marathon, then there just wouldn't be any point in bothering. I might as well cancel the apartment and flights and see if I can get some of my money back. But the goal is Berlin in September. It's all still up for grabs. These interim races are more important as training/learning tools as they are as indicators of readiness or suitability.Duanington wrote: »Funny you say that about your friend - I do think we tend to settle into limitations based on results over shorter distances. I know I've certainly been guilty of this in the past.
Your friend's experience would prove that there are indeed several ways to skin a cat !
/end inward-focused pep talk. 0 -
Krusty_Clown wrote: »Part of the reason for the post-is self-motivated. I ran the R&R half recently, in 1:14:58 (albeit on an uphill course, into a head-wind on a warm day, in the middle of high mileage (making sure to line up all the excuses in a row!). That's nearly two minutes slower than my PB, and barely breaks into what I optimistically would hope will be close to marathon pace). If I felt that the best I could hope for is an equivalent time/performance for that half marathon, then there just wouldn't be any point in bothering. I might as well cancel the apartment and flights and see if I can get some of my money back. But the goal is Berlin in September. It's all still up for grabs. These interim races are more important as training/learning tools as they are as indicators of readiness or suitability.
/end inward-focused pep talk.
Exactly how I feel. Only a couple of years ago, running a 1:35 Half, when the goal is a 3:10 marathon, would have had me in a pit of despair. Now I know it's just a staging post.0 -
Best of luck going for sub3 guys. Going to aim for that myself. Well have 6;45 pace in my head as a target/cushion
I posted in the novice support thread but I suppose my questions are more relavent here.
Since last 2 weeks following p&d55 from week 12. At week 10 now 55 mile week.
Today is suppose to be a rest and I did 5 easy yesterday. But I need mix up the days due to home commitments and shift work. I'm hoping to do the marathon in said time by doing the p&d55 long,MP and easy runs and my own speedwork/tempo stuff twice per week rather then one 10 mile with 6 at 15k pace which is about 6mpm.0 -
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Best of luck going for sub3 guys. Going to aim for that myself. Well have 6;45 pace in my head as a target/cushion
I posted in the novice support thread but I suppose my questions are more relavent here.
Since last 2 weeks following p&d55 from week 12. At week 10 now 55 mile week.
Today is suppose to be a rest and I did 5 easy yesterday. But I need mix up the days due to home commitments and shift work. I'm hoping to do the marathon in said time by doing the p&d55 long,MP and easy runs and my own speedwork/tempo stuff twice per week rather then one 10 mile with 6 at 15k pace which is about 6mpm.
Welcome Subzero3. You probably should give the folks here some of the background that you put up on the novices thread so they can understand your sub 3 target in the context of your running history and obvious ability......some pretty impressive times over the shorter distance. Any advice that might be given can be given with that background in mind.
PS best of luck with the training and the sub 3 target.0 -
May be missing the question here (stick in a question mark somewhere - it'll help!). Are you wondering if you can generally adapt the P&D 55mpw program, keeping some of the stuff and substituting other stuff? Are you wondering if you can generally swap stuff about (re-schedule), or are you wondering about a specific workout or two at a particular point in the program?Best of luck going for sub3 guys. Going to aim for that myself. Well have 6;45 pace in my head as a target/cushion
I posted in the novice support thread but I suppose my questions are more relavent here.
Since last 2 weeks following p&d55 from week 12. At week 10 now 55 mile week.
Today is suppose to be a rest and I did 5 easy yesterday. But I need mix up the days due to home commitments and shift work. I'm hoping to do the marathon in said time by doing the p&d55 long,MP and easy runs and my own speedwork/tempo stuff twice per week rather then one 10 mile with 6 at 15k pace which is about 6mpm.0 -
Krusty_Clown wrote: »May be missing the question here (stick in a question mark somewhere - it'll help!). Are you wondering if you can generally adapt the P&D 55mpw program, keeping some of the stuff and substituting other stuff? Are you wondering if you can generally swap stuff about (re-schedule), or are you wondering about a specific workout or two at a particular point in the program?
Sure Krusty.
Yes, could I do it without the tempo runs from p&d plan? ie 10 mile with 6 @ hmp etc.
I have a 45 minute window before work that I can do 4/5 mile tempo @ 6 min pace. Which is basically run 4/5 mile @ 6 min pace before and after a few stretches. Id do that on any given day once I still get the long runs in from the plan. Now that I started running my long runs @ 7:30 ish pace I am wondering if these speed sessions would be enough. There is also xc races coming up and I started doing 1k repeats x6 at 5:30m pace between now and next month. So do you think they would cover the endurance side.?
I was doing similar for the half marathon and I got just under 79 minutes(albeit slower repeats at the time). That was my first and only half (race wise), not long before that I did a 10 miler and was just under 59 minutes. That was also my first race at that distance.
I am 36, running about 17 months, have about 2k miles done. No running background, just played soccer. Gave that up, put on weight, started to run to lose it, lost it again and i haven't stop running since.
I live in a hilly area so all my long/easy runs are on uneven terrain. Hence why I like to do my tempo's before work in a normal flat area. Looking back over my Garmin I was doing nearly every run at threshold or above pace accordion to my HR zones.0 -
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Firstly, your times suggest that were you suitably trained, you could aim for targets far more aggressive than sub-3. While comparisons across runners are not entirely relevant, when I first broke 60 mins for 10 miles, I was running 2:48 for the marathon. The difference is that it was probably my 6th/7th marathon, so I had certainly made those endurance adaptations that allow you to hold a specific pace for a long amount of time.Sure Krusty.
Yes, could I do it without the tempo runs from p&d plan? ie 10 mile with 6 @ hmp etc.
I have a 45 minute window before work that I can do 4/5 mile tempo @ 6 min pace. Which is basically run 4/5 mile @ 6 min pace before and after a few stretches. Id do that on any given day once I still get the long runs in from the plan. Now that I started running my long runs @ 7:30 ish pace I am wondering if these speed sessions would be enough. There is also xc races coming up and I started doing 1k repeats x6 at 5:30m pace between now and next month. So do you think they would cover the endurance side.?
I was doing similar for the half marathon and I got just under 79 minutes(albeit slower repeats at the time). That was my first and only half (race wise), not long before that I did a 10 miler and was just under 59 minutes. That was also my first race at that distance.
I am 36, running about 17 months, have about 2k miles done. No running background, just played soccer. Gave that up, put on weight, started to run to lose it, lost it again and i haven't stop running since.
I live in a hilly area so all my long/easy runs are on uneven terrain. Hence why I like to do my tempo's before work in a normal flat area. Looking back over my Garmin I was doing nearly every run at threshold or above pace accordion to my HR zones.
Which brings me to my next point - speed. In your case (don't know how recent those achievements were), but speed shouldn't be a significant concern as you seem to certainly have enough for the task in hand. If you haven't done a lot of longer distance races (1/2M+), then your focus should be on endurance + speed-endurance, while keeping an eye on maintaining your pure speed (and your 1k intervals and tempo sessions should be fine to meet that requirement).
I'd suggest that long runs, marathon-paced runs (as part of long runs), and other long quality sessions are the order of the day. Amadeus has suggested some (I think from Tergat's previous suggestions/posts), but:
Long runs:
If you want to be comfortable for the duration of the marathon, build up to 20 miles and run at least 4-5 long easy runs of at least 20 mile duration. If you are an experienced marathoner, consider picking up pace over last few miles to something like MP+5% (~7:00/mile), once 20 mile runs feel comfortable.
Progression run: 19 miles = 5 miles easy + 14 miles progressing to marathon pace - teach the body to cope with increasing effort levels later in the race
Marathon pace:
P&D style (don't have the book in front of me, so just guessing!)
17 miles with 8@MP
19 miles with 10@MP
20 miles with 12@MP
Jack Daniels:
20-22 miles with 15 miles @MP - don't do this unless you have a few marathons under your belt and know it is achievable - nothing worse than dropping out of a MP session!
Magness:
5 x 2 miles @MP with 800 steady (did this one yesterday!)
5 x 3 miles @MP with 800 steady
3 x 5 miles @MP with 800 steady - tough session - only do if well-rested and niggle free - before taper
Tergat:
4-3-2-1 @MP with a couple of mins jog between sections
5-4-3-2-1 @MP with a couple of mins jog between sections (again, very tough)
These are just suggestions to potentially pick and choose from. Sticking with the P&D plan (with your own speed-work) should see you there or thereabouts regardless.0 -
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At risk of coming across as the wise elder here (as others are taking a step-back from jumping in with guidance), but my own 2c is that the question depends on the individual and their training history. Lets take two runners:Amadeus 2014 wrote: »Should I look at a single or double peak training year to give myself the best chance?
With a double peak I would work to a spring and autumn marathon with a standard 18 week (or so) training cycle. With a single peak I would have a much longer base phase allowing me to rebuild endurance but run the risk of putting everything in one basket and not maximizing and speed or speed endurance gains.
I can see benefit in both and the flattest / fastest local race is in July so that lends itself to an extended first cycle anyway but is there an argument for delaying until later in the year?
Runner A (I'm runner A!): history of running two marathons a year, PB in all of them, some shorter distance training, but otherwise training is marathon specific. Got down to 2:38, but after training hard for six months, the next marathon was also 2:38 (~20 second PB). Clear case of diminishing returns. Switched to one marathon a year and focused the rest of the year on improving speed (5k primarily). Marathon times start coming down again in chunks (2:35, 2:33, 2:xx???).
Runner B: Has run some decent marathons (2:39), but has not done any marathon training in recent years. Runs a marathon in 2:30. Goes straight from one marathon training cycle in to the next one, and repeats exactly the same training and runs 2:26. The training load and regimen is just as important as the actual characteristics of the training.
The difference between runner A and B is the training history. After a while you stop getting training stimulus from doing the same type of activity, so progress slows. But if you haven't done this type of training in recent years, you can expect to continue to see improvements, even if you follow exactly the same program....for a time... Given your recent history, I'd hazard that you'll see significant benefits from getting into a regular focused training regime (first marathon) and those benefits would continue to yield results if you were to repeat the process into a second cycle. That doesn't mean that you wouldn't run a better marathon if you interrupted the marathon cycles with 6 months of 5k-specific work (I'd hazard that this would be the case), but I still think you'd see benefits from a second cycle.
Another point to consider is your level of commitment and consistency. Marathon campaigns are long and challenging and demand huge amounts of commitment. As someone returning to running from a break, I think you should really be focusing on your current training and your next race, not thinking three races ahead. If this race doesn't go as planned, suddenly two marathon cycles will seem like an insurmountable hurdle and we won't see you back until Amadeus 2018. Run your half-marathon. Run your marathon - then decide about your next steps. 0 -
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Krusty_Clown wrote: »At risk of coming across as the wise elder here (as others are taking a step-back from jumping in with guidance), but my own 2c is that the question depends on the individual and their training history. Lets take two runners:
Runner A (I'm runner A!): history of running two marathons a year, PB in all of them, some shorter distance training, but otherwise training is marathon specific. Got down to 2:38, but after training hard for six months, the next marathon was also 2:38 (~20 second PB). Clear case of diminishing returns. Switched to one marathon a year and focused the rest of the year on improving speed (5k primarily). Marathon times start coming down again in chunks (2:35, 2:33, 2:xx???).
Runner B: Has run some decent marathons (2:39), but has not done any marathon training in recent years. Runs a marathon in 2:30. Goes straight from one marathon training cycle in to the next one, and repeats exactly the same training and runs 2:26. The training load and regimen is just as important as the actual characteristics of the training.
The difference between runner A and B is the training history. After a while you stop getting training stimulus from doing the same type of activity, so progress slows. But if you haven't done this type of training in recent years, you can expect to continue to see improvements, even if you follow exactly the same program....for a time... Given your recent history, I'd hazard that you'll see significant benefits from getting into a regular focused training regime (first marathon) and those benefits would continue to yield results if you were to repeat the process into a second cycle. That doesn't mean that you wouldn't run a better marathon if you interrupted the marathon cycles with 6 months of 5k-specific work (I'd hazard that this would be the case), but I still think you'd see benefits from a second cycle.
Another point to consider is your level of commitment and consistency. Marathon campaigns are long and challenging and demand huge amounts of commitment. As someone returning to running from a break, I think you should really be focusing on your current training and your next race, not thinking three races ahead. If this race doesn't go as planned, suddenly two marathon cycles will seem like an insurmountable hurdle and we won't see you back until Amadeus 2018. Run your half-marathon. Run your marathon - then decide about your next steps.
Important factor here is also age, runner B I would suggest still has a greater capacity to improve.0
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