The Sub 3 Support Thread

Oisin11178

mithril wrote: »

I re-checked again, 10.18, but still a significant difference. There was only one occassion, a steep downhill, where I noticed myself running wider than some of the other runners. Other than that I thought I was taking the direct line.
I recorded my last Marathon , the Seville Marathon, on the Garmin at 42.62 instead of 42.195, which is a .420km discrepency or only 1% as opposed to 1.8% in the Phoenix Park.

Thats some big differences alright mate. The biggest difference ive had is 13.21 miles instead of 13.1 for the irish mutimarathon half marathon in clontarf. Was a bit miffed at that because i stuck to the racing line as much as i could. Ive just seen that someone else had 10.12 miles in the 10 miler, posted on the actual thread. Actually i ran a 5k in st annes park about 6 weeks ago and my garmin came in at 3.01 miles instead of 3.10 miles but people were insistant the course was measured correctly but on that day every1 had the course short on their garmins.

mithril

Yes, its potentially a big issue given the fine margins I am working with for sub 3.

I ran Seville in 3:03:40, and have since posted the following McMillan equivalent times which are pretty consistent.

Glengarriff Hal Marathon: 3:02
Achill Half Marathon : 3:01
Addidas 10 Mile : 3:03

An extra 0.8 % inaccuracy means 90 seconds difference which could have a huge bearing on the outcome.

WhitestBoyAlive

Tell me how i am wrong but
how can a watch be expected to compare to officials accurately measuring the course.

After every race on boards, all we hear is 'my garmin measured it at... '

TFBubendorfer

WhitestBoyAlive wrote: »

Tell me how i am wrong but
how can a watch be expected to compare to officials accurately measuring the course.

After every race on boards, all we hear is 'my garmin measured it at... '

It's always the official markings that count. My Garmin tends to display about 26.4 miles after a marathon - which is mainly down to me not running the shortest line.

The problem is that you have to take this into account if you use your Garmin to pace yourself. A sub-3 marathon is 6:52 pace, but if the Garmin displays 6:50 pace or slower I know I'm not on target.

wizwill

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

It's always the official markings that count. My Garmin tends to display about 26.4 miles after a marathon - which is mainly down to me not running the shortest line.

The problem is that you have to take this into account if you use your Garmin to pace yourself. A sub-3 marathon is 6:52 pace, but if the Garmin displays 6:50 pace or slower I know I'm not on target.

TFB, i think your race report from last year DCM is required reading for anyone using Garmin's to pace. I stopped using mine in races but am going back to using it after saturday as i went through the first two miles sub 12 (following clubmates) and paid dearly later on. At seven miles i started to get passed, one by one they went by, surely its the worst feeling in running, knowing that you have gone out too fast and your being picked off, the legs have nothing left to give, i will learn my lesson for the Half, i promise.

Stupid_Private

aero2k wrote: »

Hi all,

I was a bit disappointed with my time from the Frank Duffy this morning - I was targeting 64:16 for McMillan's 2:59:59 marrathon time. I managed 64:51, a big improvement over last year's 66:28, but still a bit off the pace. However now I've had a bit of time to analyse (rationalise!), I feel a bit better. First of all in last month's 5 miler I ran 31:18 - 44 secs behind target. Today I was 45 secs behind the target over twice the distance, so getting better. Plugging that 31:18 into McMillan gives me 65:44, so I'm ahead there too. I haven't done much work below 6:30 per mile, and I didn't change my training at all in the lead-up to this race. - did 19 miles on undulating roads last Sat, and did a very hard interval session last Tues. I couldn't run any faster at the end, but I felt I could have managed several more miles, if there weren't any more hills!:)
Based on today, McMillan puts me at 3:01:38 for the marathon, so I guess I won't have too much to lose by aiming to hit halfway in 1:29 or so.
Fingers crossed...

Bare in mind that that was a tough 10 mile course. My time was about 1 minute 40 seconds slower than I ran on a flatter course earlier this year. Granted I'm not in the same shape as I was when I ran the faster time and I left everything out there that day, but still, it's a tough course, a lot tougher the DCM route.

Clum

Longford didn't go to plan.

All was going well until about mile 15 and I started to feel uncomfortable, more mentally than physically. I started slowing around mile 16 and couldn't get the pace back up. Was passed by the second lady finisher about a mile later, kept with her for a while but then the negative thoughts crept back in and I slowed again. By 20 miles I was ready to pack it in even though I was still a minute under my target schedule. I just couldn't push myself anymore and slowed drastically. This was really frustrating being on target with 6 miles to go but not being able to push on. I did pick it up again at one stage but this only lasted about a kilometer before the negativity took over again. I finished the race but the last 6 miles are something I don't really want to remember. I spent those 50 odd minutes arguing with myself and giving out....Finished almost 9 minutes off target in the end.

It was all in my head. I drank plenty of fluids and took some gels. I did a full training program and I didn't go off to fast. I'm hardly even sore today. I know I'm fit enough to do it but I just couldn't push myself on the day.

Really disappointed but I've only myself to blame. Need to be more focused the next time and be mentally prepared for a hard run. That's the biggest thing I learned yesterday and hopefully this post helps others in preparation for future marathons.

--amadeus--

That sucks, sorry to hear you had a bad run.

The more marathons I run the more convinced I am that there is more of a mental than pyhsical challenge to it. How were you feeling phusically when teh negativity set in? What kind of negativity - self doubt? Have you had that in a race before? Had you done PMPs and were you feeling confident going into the race?

Having run so well for so long it really must be tough to have missed it, fingers crossed you'll nail it next time. Maybe bounce back for Dublin?

Clum

--amadeus-- wrote: »

That sucks, sorry to hear you had a bad run.

The more marathons I run the more convinced I am that there is more of a mental than pyhsical challenge to it. How were you feeling phusically when teh negativity set in? What kind of negativity - self doubt? Have you had that in a race before? Had you done PMPs and were you feeling confident going into the race?

I was feeling fine at the time. I don't know what came over me. It wasn't self doubt, I just didn't like being out there. I was running well, had just passed two relay runners and was keeping a great pace but then I just lost focus and started not wanting to be there. The further I went the more unhappy I was. One part of me wanted to push on, the other just didn't care and wanted to go home. Weird cos I was so pumped for this race for weeks before hand. Don't think I've ever felt like that in a race before.

I'd totally completed my training, I don't think anything was overlooked. My long runs were up to 22 miles, I was running 10 mile PMPs once a week and I'd hill work and speed sessions done too. I was setting PBs over 5k and 10k through out the summer. Absolutely positive I was fit enough for the job, just gave up on the day.

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Having run so well for so long it really must be tough to have missed it, fingers crossed you'll nail it next time. Maybe bounce back for Dublin?

Don't think I'll do Dublin. Want to do cross country running around then.

Sosa

Sorry to hear the clum,you did not say your finishing time but if memory serves me,you were aiming for sub 2:40 last time i read something from you,so your training must have been savage to try get that and to have a minute in the bag with 6.2 to go and end up 9 mins outside your target is a radical difference...
Puts into perspective what i have been saying for a long time now...its all on the day,no matter what training you have done,you have to turn up on the day and produce and its not easy.
I have a feeling that i am in for a bit or hurting in the latter stages of Dublin.
I think it was Krusy on here said a while back thats its better to miss out on a really tough target time than to get waltz over the line in a more conservative one.
Im sure you will be back.
Well done

Clum

Sosa wrote: »

Sorry to hear the clum,you did not say your finishing time but if memory serves me,you were aiming for sub 2:40 last time i read something from you,so your training must have been savage to try get that and to have a minute in the bag with 6.2 to go and end up 9 mins outside your target is a radical difference...
Puts into perspective what i have been saying for a long time now...its all on the day,no matter what training you have done,you have to turn up on the day and produce and its not easy.
I have a feeling that i am in for a bit or hurting in the latter stages of Dublin.
I think it was Krusy on here said a while back thats its better to miss out on a really tough target time than to get waltz over the line in a more conservative one.
Im sure you will be back.
Well done

Whatever about sub 3, 2.40 is way off my capabilites. I finished in 3.08. I've gone faster before and I'm pretty sure I'll go faster again.

Thanks.

mithril

I ran it last year and I know what you were feeling.
Its the worst course in the country if you need some motivation in the final miles to pull you through.

Hard to find a fellow runner at your target pace to stick on because of the small entry size. Almost no crowd support and then the final few miles are on hard shoulder of the N4 which is a reasonable surface but just a horrible place to be with the cars whizzing beside you or belching fumes in your lungs when you hit the tail-back.

Sosa

Thought i would give this a bump to see how everyones training is going.
For those of us doing Dublin,taper hits us this weekend.
To late to change anything now....

wizwill

anyone any thoughts on a two week taper for the DCM rather than three weeks, been laid low through illness for the last week and wont be able to train until the weekend, training was flying up until then. Plan would be to put a decent week in next week then two weeks taper.

Krusty_Clown

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

It's always the official markings that count. My Garmin tends to display about 26.4 miles after a marathon - which is mainly down to me not running the shortest line.

The problem is that you have to take this into account if you use your Garmin to pace yourself. A sub-3 marathon is 6:52 pace, but if the Garmin displays 6:50 pace or slower I know I'm not on target.

Just to echo TFBubendorfer's comments, I ran Berlinat 6:51 pace, and missed out by 50 seconds (26.5 miles, on what I thought was pretty close to the race line, which is painted on the road for most of the 26 miles). The next time, I'll be aiming for sub 6:48 at least. Best of luck with the final training.

TFBubendorfer

wizwill wrote: »

anyone any thoughts on a two week taper for the DCM rather than three weeks, been laid low through illness for the last week and wont be able to train until the weekend, training was flying up until then. Plan would be to put a decent week in next week then two weeks taper.

Sorry, but there's no way of telling in advance what would be better.

But keep in mind, it's always preferable to be slightly undertrained than overtrained.

--amadeus--

Have any of you any experience of marathons wearing racing flats?

I have the Asics Hyperspeeds which I've worn in a couple of races. They are feather light but have no cushioning whatsoever. I normally train in 2140s and am pretty light (10stone) and have a fairly neutral footstrike. I know Noakes reckons that light shoes are worth seconds per mile but I'm not sure about the battering my legs might take, especially as I'll be pacing sub 4 in Dublin the week after.

I'm thinking of doing 8 or 10 in them today and - if that goes well - an 18 progression run in them at the weekend. After that I should have an idea but I'd be interested in any thoughts or opinions/experiences?

TFBubendorfer

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Have any of you any experience of marathons wearing racing flats?

I have the Asics Hyperspeeds which I've worn in a couple of races. They are feather light but have no cushioning whatsoever. I normally train in 2140s and am pretty light (10stone) and have a fairly neutral footstrike. I know Noakes reckons that light shoes are worth seconds per mile but I'm not sure about the battering my legs might take, especially as I'll be pacing sub 4 in Dublin the week after.

I'm thinking of doing 8 or 10 in them today and - if that goes well - an 18 progression run in them at the weekend. After that I should have an idea but I'd be interested in any thoughts or opinions/experiences?

I have run my last 2 marathons in Lunaracers and won't even consider wearing anything else at this point in time. To me they are the perfect racing shoe - extremely light, but with a surprising amount of cushioning. I have worn a pair of Asics Ohana in the previous 2 marathons and my legs felt a bit beaten up at the end. I didn't have any issues whatsoever with the Lunaracers.

One thing about flats is that you should have covered a reasonable amount of miles in them before you wear them in a marathon because the heel is lower which makes your calves and achilles work harder. You need to be somewhat used to that before race day.

Gringo78

--amadeus-- wrote: »

I'm thinking of doing 8 or 10 in them today and - if that goes well - an 18 progression run in them at the weekend. After that I should have an idea but I'd be interested in any thoughts or opinions/experiences?

Wore racing flats in half marathon 2 weeks ago and no issues after although your legs will take more of a hammering in them so while I would do the 8-10 miles run in them make sure you're ok in them, I'd say don't do the 18 mile progression in them, too much of a hammering so close to the marathon. I think you're light enough and fast enough to be suited to wearing the flats. After wearing them in the HM I wouldn't think twice about wearing them in marathon and I'm 12st.

Stupid_Private

Sosa wrote: »

Thought i would give this a bump to see how everyones training is going.
For those of us doing Dublin,taper hits us this weekend.
To late to change anything now....

wizwill wrote: »

anyone any thoughts on a two week taper for the DCM rather than three weeks, been laid low through illness for the last week and wont be able to train until the weekend, training was flying up until then. Plan would be to put a decent week in next week then two weeks taper.

Personally I think a lot of people taper for far too long. I'd say if your mileage is not going too far over 55-65 miles then I don't think you need more than a 10 day taper.

Abhainn

wizwill wrote: »

anyone any thoughts on a two week taper for the DCM rather than three weeks, been laid low through illness for the last week and wont be able to train until the weekend, training was flying up until then. Plan would be to put a decent week in next week then two weeks taper.

Two week (well 15 day to be more exact) taper for me.
Will be hitting about 57 miles this week though nothing too hard untill Sat due to DHM last Sat.
Next week will be about 55 miles.
I also think 3 week taper is a bit long myself, but thats me

Peckham

--amadeus-- wrote: »

I'm thinking of doing 8 or 10 in them today and - if that goes well - an 18 progression run in them at the weekend. After that I should have an idea but I'd be interested in any thoughts or opinions/experiences?

I think seeing how you get on in them for these training runs is the only way to answer the question. Don't P&D give a rough guide in their book as to who is suitable, and who isn't suitable for flats...think they suggest that if you're running longer than a 2:45 marathon, that you may not be the best candidate.

But I guess the only way to find out is to train in them.....

TFBubendorfer

Peckham wrote: »

Don't P&D give a rough guide in their book as to who is suitable, and who isn't suitable for flats...think they suggest that if you're running longer than a 2:45 marathon, that you may not be the best candidate.

Yeah, but that was written how many years ago? I don't run that fast, but my reasoning was that shoe technology might have moved on since they wrote that.

wizwill

Abhainn wrote: »

Two week (well 15 day to be more exact) taper for me.
Will be hitting about 57 miles this week though nothing too hard untill Sat due to DHM last Sat.
Next week will be about 55 miles.
I also think 3 week taper is a bit long myself, but thats me

Thanks for that, I would probably take 3 weeks if it was an option but i cant shake a chest infection. Sub 3 attempt dead in the water but a good pb is possible. BTW congrats on your dublin half time, superb.

Sosa

Stupid_Private wrote: »

Personally I think a lot of people taper for far too long. I'd say if your mileage is not going too far over 55-65 miles then I don't think you need more than a 10 day taper.

I did 56 last week,hopefully 60 this week...then 3 week taper...45,35,25.
45 is hardly a real taper...still 45 miles...more than what i was doing before i started training for this.

Krusty_Clown

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Yeah, but that was written how many years ago? I don't run that fast, but my reasoning was that shoe technology might have moved on since they wrote that.

There is a 2009 updated version of their book available. Maybe someone has a copy? I'm tempted to buy it to see if the programs have changed. I have to confess, I read extracts from this book almost daily.

Peckham

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I have to confess, I read extracts from this book almost daily.

...well it is kind of like the bible for many of us!

Sosa

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

There is a 2009 updated version of their book available. Maybe someone has a copy? I'm tempted to buy it to see if the programs have changed. I have to confess, I read extracts from this book almost daily.

I have the updated one Krusty,have not read it all but did not see anything about wearing flats in it,probably as i would not chance it,wore them for a 10k race a few months back and swore never again.

There are loads of stretching in it,and i think the programs are a bit different.

I read the tapering chapter last night as its just upon me.

--amadeus--

A thread back from the dead...

Mixed bag of results for the sub 3 attempts this autumn but I thought it might make sense to have a "debrief" on what worked and what didn't in your training and your attempt.

So here goes mine:

Training:
In Rotterdam in spring I began to fade very early on so I wanted to focus much more on increasing endurance for my autumn marathon. I also figured that raw speed wasn't an issue but again speed endurance (the ability to carry race pace over time, especially when fatigued) was weak and needed improvement.

So I really concentrated on getting the LSRs in this time around. For the first time in an age I hit 1*18, 3*20 and 1*22 LSRs. Probably more important they were all run at a sensible clip; never slower than 8:30 min/mile and often significantly faster - eg a 20 miler at an average of 7:50/mile about 4 weeks before the race. One big feature of these LSRs was that the pace stayed consistent all the way through rather than fading towards the end as they tended to do in previous training cycles.

Another thing I pushed were the PMP runs. Never less than 10 miles and trying to keep the pace below 6:45 (target PMP was 6:51).

Neglected this time were LT runs and VO2 max runs. I did a couple but not a lot.

The Race:
I've done a race report elsewhere but I was 40 secs up at 35kms and lost 1:30 between 35-40kms. I did pull back 30+secs between 40-42kms to finish in 3:00:35 chip time.

So what happened?

Km1 was 4:40, which was a disaster. A gel "incident" and my HRM strap slipping off just after the start slowed me down and I had to take the HRM off, adjust it and put it back on. KM2 was then an overcompensation - 3:36. (Target is 4:15/km)

But the real pace damage was done in kms 21/24/25 all of which were 4:07. Far too fast and I didn't hit a full 5k split after that.

Things that went well - overall pacing was spot on - especially 5 - 20kms where pace was very even (at one point I ran 4 consecutive 4:13s for example). And the pace felt easy right up to 30kms or so, no doubt because my PMP runs were pitched a fraction faster. Taper was good and the work on the LSRs meant that even when I slowed I was still running 4:30s or below and was able to pick it up in the last 2kms. Fuelling was spot on - a gel at 10, 20 and 30 with a spare that I took somewhere around 38ish.

Lessons:

Pace, pace, pace. A better first 2 kms and a more even 20 - 25 and I'd be in the sub 3 club, no doubt in my mind. More LSRs, more and longer PMPs and keep the progression runs. LT and (especially) VO2 max seem less important for me so I'll do them where I can but teh focus will stay on endurance. And I'll try and up weekly mileage - while I had two weeks of 60+ my average was ~45 which probably isn't enough.

What about the rest of you?

mithril

--amadeus-- wrote: »

A thread back from the dead...
I also figured that raw speed wasn't an issue but again speed endurance (the ability to carry race pace over time, especially when fatigued) was weak and needed improvement.

I believe you are spot on with this.
In my Spring Marathon, (Seville) I dropped 90 seconds off pace between 35-40KM as the quad muscles got very inflamed and flexibility in the legs seemed to go . In Berlin, I stayed on track during this period and maintained good running form to the finish without ever getting sore.

Its hard to isolate the specific reason but 3 things I did differently were:

1. A lot of easy hill running in base training. For me hill running is great since it gives you both an aerobic workout and muscle strengthening in one session.

2. Increased mileage from P&D 55 to P&D 70 miles a week.

3. Did a lot of exercies for core strengthening in the gym. I find a rowing machine particularly good for this even though I don't enjoy it.