The Sub 3 Support Thread

wizwill

Amadeus, good idea for this thread.

i missed sub 3 by 9 minutes and here are my lessons learned

1. Done LSR far too fast fueling on gels. All done around 7.00-7.20 pace. I know the purpose of a LSR is to train the body to fuel on fat efficiently but i didn’t put this into practice in the mistaken belief that it would work on the day. I ended up in the farcical situation of going to 22 miles as fast in training than on race day. Next time around i will do the LSR's as LSR's, using mcmillan pacer. Next time around i wont train with gels.

2. Left the Garmin at home, a short first mile marker lead me to believe i went through first mile just over 6 minutes. This played on my mind and gave the demons all the ammunition they needed to win the battle come mile 22. I am going to live by the garmin from here onwards, every run i have done since has been with Garmin.

3. 50% of marathon is mental strength. I am going to learn and practice the recommended techniques in races.

4. Some PMP and tempo runs were neglected . Will get them right next time round.


5. Have a plan a week out from race day, don’t be deciding the night before, it might not "all come together on the day"

6. The old saying "never increase by more than 10%" isn’t just because you could injure yourself easier, its relates to illness also. You legs might feel strong but you cant "feel" your immune system. A couple of weeks injured during marathon training stifles your momentum, marathon training is all about momentum.

7. I got bad cramp during the race. Next time i will bring salt tablets.

8. No matter who you are and how hard you have trained, the marathon reserves the right to chew you up and spit you out "on the day".

ciaran_kdc

ergo wrote: »

first of all, have you actually read all the pages on this thread? Maybe this is not the best thread for you to post this in (as could be considered off topic by some) that's just my opinion mind you - others might answer your questions

OK, I've removed my posting, rather than transgress:o.

Sosa

wizwill wrote: »

Amadeus, good idea for this thread.

i missed sub 3 by 9 minutes and here are my lessons learned

1. Done LSR far too fast fueling on gels. All done around 7.00-7.20 pace. I know the purpose of a LSR is to train the body to fuel on fat efficiently but i didn’t put this into practice in the mistaken belief that it would work on the day. I ended up in the farcical situation of going to 22 miles as fast in training than on race day. Next time around i will do the LSR's as LSR's, using mcmillan pacer. Next time around i wont train with gels.

2. Left the Garmin at home, a short first mile marker lead me to believe i went through first mile just over 6 minutes. This played on my mind and gave the demons all the ammunition they needed to win the battle come mile 22. I am going to live by the garmin from here onwards, every run i have done since has been with Garmin.

3. 50% of marathon is mental strength. I am going to learn and practice the recommended techniques in races.

4. Some PMP and tempo runs were neglected . Will get them right next time round.


5. Have a plan a week out from race day, don’t be deciding the night before, it might not "all come together on the day"

6. The old saying "never increase by more than 10%" isn’t just because you could injure yourself easier, its relates to illness also. You legs might feel strong but you cant "feel" your immune system. A couple of weeks injured during marathon training stifles your momentum, marathon training is all about momentum.

7. I got bad cramp during the race. Next time i will bring salt tablets.

8. No matter who you are and how hard you have trained, the marathon reserves the right to chew you up and spit you out "on the day".

Alot of the above....i agree with totally.

I was aiming for sub 3...i fell over the line in 3:14:16

Rather than start with a negative...this is what i did right.

I improved my 10k to 37:22.....5m to 29:33....4m to 23:15

Training :
I did [EMAIL="3x18@roughly"]3x18@roughly[/EMAIL] 7:30p...2x20m @ 7:50 and 7:24p...and 1x22:7@33p.
Now...did i do those to fast ?

I addition to that ( to those that followed my log ) i followed the P&D 18 week plan up to 55m.

What i did wrong :

Where do i start...in my mind all i did wrong was the following :

Sub 3 s 6:52p....i was 1:40 up by mile 10...what fcuking hope do you have after you do that for the first 10m ? no hope.
I realised what i was doing but even though i tapered back to pass though halfway in 1:29:32...my race was ran

In addition to that,i ignored racing 10m or half marathon distances.
Next time round that will all change,it is invaluable to compete in those events to get a real idea where your training is.

My PMP runs will increase...
I will run (at least) 10m,12m,14,16m @ PMP beforehand aswell as racing 10m or half marathon at full whack...and thats all while i try my best to improve my short times.

My endurance was the big problem i had...my main aim is to not feel as bad as i felt for the lat 6.2...i have no problem being tired...or weary...maybe a few aches or pains...but this thing of the whole body shutting down,
i will have to work on that.

This cannot happen again

tunguska

--amadeus-- wrote: »

A thread back from the dead...

Mixed bag of results for the sub 3 attempts this autumn but I thought it might make sense to have a "debrief" on what worked and what didn't in your training and your attempt.

So here goes mine:

Training:
In Rotterdam in spring I began to fade very early on so I wanted to focus much more on increasing endurance for my autumn marathon. I also figured that raw speed wasn't an issue but again speed endurance (the ability to carry race pace over time, especially when fatigued) was weak and needed improvement.

So I really concentrated on getting the LSRs in this time around. For the first time in an age I hit 1*18, 3*20 and 1*22 LSRs. Probably more important they were all run at a sensible clip; never slower than 8:30 min/mile and often significantly faster - eg a 20 miler at an average of 7:50/mile about 4 weeks before the race. One big feature of these LSRs was that the pace stayed consistent all the way through rather than fading towards the end as they tended to do in previous training cycles.

Another thing I pushed were the PMP runs. Never less than 10 miles and trying to keep the pace below 6:45 (target PMP was 6:51).

Neglected this time were LT runs and VO2 max runs. I did a couple but not a lot.

The Race:
I've done a race report elsewhere but I was 40 secs up at 35kms and lost 1:30 between 35-40kms. I did pull back 30+secs between 40-42kms to finish in 3:00:35 chip time.

So what happened?

Km1 was 4:40, which was a disaster. A gel "incident" and my HRM strap slipping off just after the start slowed me down and I had to take the HRM off, adjust it and put it back on. KM2 was then an overcompensation - 3:36. (Target is 4:15/km)

But the real pace damage was done in kms 21/24/25 all of which were 4:07. Far too fast and I didn't hit a full 5k split after that.

Things that went well - overall pacing was spot on - especially 5 - 20kms where pace was very even (at one point I ran 4 consecutive 4:13s for example). And the pace felt easy right up to 30kms or so, no doubt because my PMP runs were pitched a fraction faster. Taper was good and the work on the LSRs meant that even when I slowed I was still running 4:30s or below and was able to pick it up in the last 2kms. Fuelling was spot on - a gel at 10, 20 and 30 with a spare that I took somewhere around 38ish.

Lessons:

Pace, pace, pace. A better first 2 kms and a more even 20 - 25 and I'd be in the sub 3 club, no doubt in my mind. More LSRs, more and longer PMPs and keep the progression runs. LT and (especially) VO2 max seem less important for me so I'll do them where I can but teh focus will stay on endurance. And I'll try and up weekly mileage - while I had two weeks of 60+ my average was ~45 which probably isn't enough.

What about the rest of you?

As you said Amadeus I'd say your weekly mileage was definitely an issue. Jack Daniels recommends a minimum of 70 miles/week for advanced marathon training, and sub 3hrs is definitely advanced.
I was doing around 35 miles/week up until the middle of August this year in preparation for the DCM. It wasnt nearly enough and after Frank duffy I got wise and upped the mileage to 75miles/week(gradually over a period of time). The difference was colossal. I ran 59mins in frank duffy but just a few weeks later I was doing the 10 miles in training in 57 mins. my whole game stepped up a notch. And when I increased the mileage again, there was another jump in performance. Although they werent just extra miles run at a zombie pace, everything was done at a fair clip.
So definitley crank up the mileage to at least 70miles/week, I guarantee you'll get a sub 3hr marathon, by a long way. I'd also recommend making your long run a 26 mile+ run. I know people reading this will not agree but when you take a step back and look at it you wouldnt train for a 10 mile race by only running 7 miles or a half marathon by only running 9 miles, so why would you train for a marathon and only run 20 miles or even 22 miles? When you run this distance in training your perception of 26 miles changes. You start thinking about this distance as not long at all. Its like if you run a 10 mile race for the first time you think that 10 miles is a long distance. But then you run a marathon and you look at 10 miles as nothing. This is what happens when you run 26+miles in training. It removes fear and a big psychological barrier. Plus physiologically your body becomes more efficient, at least thats what I found. The point at which I started to struggle in a long run grew further and futher away, until it never came at all. When John Treacy was training for the olympics in 1984 he did a fair few 26 milers and even two 29 milers so I think they're well worth trying. Obviuosly it'll take a little time to get up to the point where you can run 26+ in training. It'll take time, but not as much as you think. I mean if youre doing 22 mile long runs at the moment you could add on 1 mile per week or even 1 mile every 2 wks. All done at a decent pace. No use running 26 miles at zombie pace if you plan on going under 3hrs on race day.
Anyway I know this is controversial but I'd give it a go if I were you. Even just for one marathon, see what happens. If it doesnt work out theres always another marathon so not much will be lost. But I think you'll be thrilled at the results of 26+mile training runs.

nerraw1111

Great thread. Some really interesting observations.

Peckham

tunguska wrote: »

26+mile training runs.

Not convinced of the benefits of including this in training - injury risk and impact on other training elements must be significant. As a matter of interest, do elite marathoners put in these miles in a long run before a race?

Lex Luther

Hi this thread is still very relevant to me as I have my next attempt in a little under 4 weeks. ( I decided in August to skip Dublin because I missed about 3 weeks of quality training because of knee problems)

Lots of very interesting stuff being posted.
For my part I have 4 seconds to find from my last try in May to break the three hours.
What I'm doing different for this attempt :
(before race)
1. Made sure I hit more mid week 11/12 miles runs at MP
2. made sure that I spent at least 2.45 on my feet for at least 2 long runs ( regardless of pace/miles)
3. Increased weekly mileage by an average of 5 miles per week with no "bad" ( low mileage) weeks.
( in race)
4. Will make sure to hit half at between 1.28.45 and 1.29.30 ( last time I was too slow , 1.30.01).
5. Will really concentrate on maintaining correct pace between miles 14 and 20.

Wish me luck !
LL

--amadeus--

Interesting post T.

From what I've read on other forums as well as from what I have seen on here the average seems to be 60+mpw for those who consistently go sub 3 and teh one common factor in all teh really fast runners is the high mileage. Which I guess is also a factor of time - if you do 6 min/miles in training it's easier to do a 10 mile run than if you are at 9 m/m pace. So major increases there are inevitable.

LSRs are teh big one - I know some elites do over distance training (HH says he once did a series of 30 milers in training, for example). And P&Ds 70 mpw program has a 24 mile LSR. So if you are going to 24 then logically why not 26? I know that the mental side is huge and de-mystifying the number would be a big factor. My main query would be teh pace - to be effective they'd need to be run at a decent clip and it took me a week to fully recover from pacing Dublin and that was at 9m/m. I couldn't afford that in the middle of training and doing it slower is out of teh question.

On a total offshoot - I see Barca has 3 hr and 2:50 pacers....

And good luck LL!

tunguska

Peckham wrote: »

Not convinced of the benefits of including this in training - injury risk and impact on other training elements must be significant. As a matter of interest, do elite marathoners put in these miles in a long run before a race?

Only one way to find out if they are of benefit and thats to give it a go. And im not being cheeky or trying to be a smart ass or anything but sometimes you gotta try things out for yourself.
In regards to the injury issue, I mean youre running 26miles so at the start theres gonna be niggles. But thats all they are. I know people who give up as soon as they have a niggle. They'll never run a sub 3hr marathon. And thats what we're talking about here, its taking things up to a different level and when you do that theres gonna be some pain. But its managable pain and the body is extremely adaptable, and before long the niggles go away and your body is stronger. I'd recommend ice baths after a 26+mile training run. Just go to the off-licence, buy a bag of ice(2 quid at most) then run a cold bath, chuck the ice in and then jump in for 15 - 20mins. They work horror show like.

shels4ever

Peckham wrote: »

Not convinced of the benefits of including this in training - injury risk and impact on other training elements must be significant. As a matter of interest, do elite marathoners put in these miles in a long run before a race?

30 mile runs would be very common for the elite guys, i know that john tracy was doing 30+ mile runs prior to his first marathon(still would have been well under 3 hours) ... but time on feet wouldnt have been that long, i'd be out there all day if i was doing 30 miles in training .

tunguska

--amadeus-- wrote: »

My main query would be teh pace - to be effective they'd need to be run at a decent clip and it took me a week to fully recover from pacing Dublin and that was at 9m/m. I couldn't afford that in the middle of training and doing it slower is out of teh question.

Yeah youre right Amadeus, recovery is an issue. The way I worked it was I'd do my 26+mile training run on Sunday, having had the saturday off and having an easy run day on monday. And that did the job. So You have to be smart in regards to scheduling. But what I did notice was the more of these 26 mile runs I did, the less time it took me to recover from them. And each one I did was quicker than the previous one. So the body adapts. If youre gonna give them a go I'd start asap so that you give your body plenty of time to adapt before Valencia. Although it means youre going to have to be extra dedicated over Crimbo:).
Another factor in recovery that Ive noticed is Diet. I read this book:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Thrive-Nutrition-Optimal-Performance-Healthy/dp/0738212547/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257786921&sr=1-2

This guy reckons the rate at which you recover is hugely influenced by your diet. Having put his recommendations into use I'd have to agree 100%. The difference is massive. When my diet was poor or not as good as it is from using this book, my recovery was mediocre. But now using this book my recovery rate has improved big time. If you nail you diet your recovery rate will shoot up.

Sosa

Lex Luther wrote: »

Hi this thread is still very relevant to me as I have my next attempt in a little under 4 weeks. ( I decided in August to skip Dublin because I missed about 3 weeks of quality training because of knee problems)

Lots of very interesting stuff being posted.
For my part I have 4 seconds to find from my last try in May to break the three hours.
What I'm doing different for this attempt :
(before race)
1. Made sure I hit more mid week 11/12 miles runs at MP
2. made sure that I spent at least 2.45 on my feet for at least 2 long runs ( regardless of pace/miles)
3. Increased weekly mileage by an average of 5 miles per week with no "bad" ( low mileage) weeks.
( in race)
4. Will make sure to hit half at between 1.28.45 and 1.29.30 ( last time I was too slow , 1.30.01).
5. Will really concentrate on maintaining correct pace between miles 14 and 20.

Wish me luck !
LL

Good luck Lex...

What you outlined are some of the issues i intend to correct in prep for my next marathon.

Major one is pacing...know your pace and stick to it.
Its so easy to let your mind drift

Woddle

tunguska wrote: »

Only one way to find out if they are of benefit and thats to give it a go. And im not being cheeky or trying to be a smart ass or anything but sometimes you gotta try things out for yourself.

I think this is a great comment and I agree 100%, you gotta try things to see what works for you, my cousin and I were just on a run having that debate and this was my stance as he doesn't agree with some of my new methods but sure if it doesn't work, I'll try sth else.

--amadeus--

I've moved the goalposts - Valencia is a bit soon so currently thinking Barca with maybe Vienna or Hamburg if that is still too soon... No rush is there

I know where you are coming from with the experiment thing but my issue is that you only get 2 marathons a year and 3 - 4 months is a long time to waste doing the wrong training. That's why I'm a bigger fan of evolution than revolution.

That said has anyone ever had a bespoke program made out by a pro coach?

Peckham

--amadeus-- wrote: »

That said has anyone ever had a bespoke program made out by a pro coach?

Have considered getting one done by Greg McMillan. The fixed plans aren't too expensive, however would love to try the online coaching which is a bit pricier. Still, with the dollar/euro rate so good at the moment....hhhhmmmm...

Woddle

Peckham wrote: »

Have considered getting one done by Greg McMillan. The fixed plans aren't too expensive, however would love to try the online coaching which is a bit pricier. Still, with the dollar/euro rate so good at the moment....hhhhmmmm...

Ignore me I clicked on the links

tunguska

--amadeus-- wrote: »

I've moved the goalposts - Valencia is a bit soon so currently thinking Barca with maybe Vienna or Hamburg if that is still too soon... No rush is there

I know where you are coming from with the experiment thing but my issue is that you only get 2 marathons a year and 3 - 4 months is a long time to waste doing the wrong training. That's why I'm a bigger fan of evolution than revolution.

That said has anyone ever had a bespoke program made out by a pro coach?

What are you aiming for in Bracelona Amadeus, Sub 3hr attempt again? What do you plan on doing differently this time round?

shels4ever

Peckham wrote: »

Have considered getting one done by Greg McMillan. The fixed plans aren't too expensive, however would love to try the online coaching which is a bit pricier. Still, with the dollar/euro rate so good at the moment....hhhhmmmm...

I'd like to see what sort of plan they come up for you if you did go for that, Maybe i'm a bit stingy but i'd hate to pay for a plan that I can design myself. But then again i'm no coach ...

--amadeus--

No point in just aiming for sub 3 again, IMO - why train for 4 months just to shave off 36 seconds?!

Publicly I'm committing to 2:55 but a lot will depend on training. I tend to train better over summer & race better in Autumn and Xmas is slap bang in the middle of the cycle. But I've got intentions to follow the P&D 70mile plan which would be a fairly serious step up in mileage (it would almost double it) and last time I did that I made some serious gains. Like Peckham I'm also thinking about a tailored plan.

Major differences would be discipline to follow the plan (which I always intend and never do) and that big step up in mileage.

tunguska

--amadeus-- wrote: »

No point in just aiming for sub 3 again, IMO - why train for 4 months just to shave off 36 seconds?!

Publicly I'm committing to 2:55 but a lot will depend on training. I tend to train better over summer & race better in Autumn and Xmas is slap bang in the middle of the cycle. But I've got intentions to follow the P&D 70mile plan which would be a fairly serious step up in mileage (it would almost double it) and last time I did that I made some serious gains. Like Peckham I'm also thinking about a tailored plan.

Major differences would be discipline to follow the plan (which I always intend and never do) and that big step up in mileage.

Sounds good to me. I was actually just readin P&D and looking at the 70 mile plan. Looks like you'll have to double run it on some days. Not a bad thing though, I really like the night time runs myself. You pretty much have the streets to yourself, little or no traffic and everything is very calm and peceful. Perfect running conditions.

aero2k

Hi all,

I have written an account of my training and prepartion for this year's DCM. It's big so I've linked to it here:
http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AcN2ILvWdxnoZHM0ZjJ0OV8wZ25uaGczZGo&hl=en
I'll be happy to answer any questions it may raise.

A slightly edited version of my race report is here:
http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AcN2ILvWdxnoZHM0ZjJ0OV8xZnQzNno2bWI&hl=en

--amadeus--

aero2k wrote: »

Hi all,

I have written an account of my training and prepartion for this year's DCM. It's big so I've linked to it here:
http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AcN2ILvWdxnoZHM0ZjJ0OV8wZ25uaGczZGo&hl=en
I'll be happy to answer any questions it may raise.

A slightly edited version of my race report is here:
http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AcN2ILvWdxnoZHM0ZjJ0OV8xZnQzNno2bWI&hl=en

Interesting stuff. Did you do many long runs in the lighter shoes before the race itself?

Peckham

Cheers aero2k - have printed it off to read on the commute home this evening.

Krusty_Clown

A great account of both the physical and mental aspects of running a sub-3 aero2k. Required reading, IMO!

nerraw1111

Top stuff Aero.

Git101

aero2k wrote: »

Hi all,

I have written an account of my training and prepartion for this year's DCM. It's big so I've linked to it here:
http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AcN2ILvWdxnoZHM0ZjJ0OV8wZ25uaGczZGo&hl=en
I'll be happy to answer any questions it may raise.

A slightly edited version of my race report is here:
http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AcN2ILvWdxnoZHM0ZjJ0OV8xZnQzNno2bWI&hl=en

Well done aero2k
Certainly makes a fantastic read..

Not to put any pressure on but would you consider writing a training log or blog for your next marathon.
Your honesty and attention to detail could be a great help to other runners..

aero2k

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Interesting stuff. Did you do many long runs in the lighter shoes before the race itself?

I'll have to check my diary - I keep a note of what shoes I wear for most of my runs. I definitely wore the DS trainers for my epic 23.8mile, 3 hr 2min run, plus a training run over the half marathon course in the park and the half marathon itself.

Peckham wrote: »

Cheers aero2k - have printed it off to read on the commute home this evening.

Hope you don't fall asleep and miss your stop!

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

A great account of both the physical and mental aspects of running a sub-3 aero2k. Required reading, IMO!

Cheers Krusty, your advice on using autolap on the Garmin, and adding a few seconds per mile were invaluable. I remember you asked (earlier in this thread I think) what went wrong for me in '08 - I didn't really know at the time but I think the stuff on the two links pretty much answers the question.

Git101 wrote: »

Well done aero2k
Certainly makes a fantastic read..

Not to put any pressure on but would you consider writing a training log or blog for your next marathon.
Your honesty and attention to detail could be a great help to other runners..

Cheers Git. Good to see that after 32 years you're still trying to lead me over to the dark side!
I need to put a bit more shape on my life and I might consider the idea. I'll have to admit that I'm a lot more comfortable explaining my training after the event than trying to defend it in advance. Debate is always healthy, but if someone questions something in the lead-up to a race, that's a possible source of drain on mental energy.
I do have some thoughts on training programs that I'll try to organise properly and post elsewhere.

wizwill

Aero, I enjoyed reading your race report. You left no stone unturned and your success was based around this. I am astonished that you moved from 42+ min 10k for the Bupa race to sub 3 in dublin, this is testament to your training and self discipline. I had the Kayano and DS trainer in the bag on race day, i choose the Kayano, i felt the DS were too risky.

well done.

aero2k

wizwill wrote: »

I am astonished that you moved from 42+ min 10k for the Bupa race to sub 3 in dublin, this is testament to your training and self discipline.

Thanks for the kind words wizwill.
The Bupa time may be a bit misleading, I think I'd have been a bit quicker if I hadn't let my training get a bit haphazard over the previous couple of months. Also, 10k races are very high intensity, I find the slightly lower intensity of the longer distances is a bit more comfortable - provided I've done the requisite training.

ir666

Great writing aero2k & great running.