The Sub 3 Support Thread

Krusty_Clown

sideswipe wrote: »

Quick question in terms of recovery between MP reps- 800 steady, what does that actually mean pace wise? I've always treated steady pace as MP which is obviously incorrect!

I don't think it matters too much, but for me, for a pace of ~5:40, I'd be targeting 6:15-7:00/mile, but I wouldn't have pace displayed on the watch during these sections. What's important is the fact that it's not recovery. So for a sub-3 target pace of 6:45/mile, anything in the range of 7:15/7:45 will give you a brief respite from marathon pace, without allowing the HR to drop into recovery zones.

For reference, for a steady run, I'd be targeting 6:00-6:25/mile steady run on a treadmill and 6:15-6:20 outside on a rolling hill route, so a little more exacting than I'd be during the MP sessions. The steady/float bits are just the fluff. They're more relevant in shorter sessions where you are alternating MP and steady pace (e.g. 6 x 1 mile @MP/800 steady, or 5 x 2 Mile @MP/800 steady). The aforementioned are earlier Magness sessions. Worth mentioning that the Magness marathon template doesn't have 3 x 5 mile with 800 steady. In fact, the ultimate MP session in that plan is: 4 x 3 mile/800 steady, which is significantly less challenging than the session being discussed here. That's kind of why I'm suggesting that the steady bit is less relevant. The emphasis of this session is less about the sum of the MP and steady sections (which you'd have with that 4x3 mile/800) and more about hitting the right notes with the MP, given it's larger emphasis and dominance in this session.

Other opinions are of course welcomed!

davedanon

My notion of Steady is that it's MP + 30 secs, which chimes with Krusty's, although it's at the faster end of a range he's allowing for because the Steady bit isn't the essential part of the session so the pace isn't critical.

cloudatlas

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/fitness/phone-addicts-get-in-my-way-when-i-run-what-should-i-do-1.3059341

What bizarre advice. I always think of pedestrians as having right of way on the pavement and since runners are going at the higher speed the onus is on them to redirect their route. I can understand the frustration if there are two people walking towards you on a very narrow path buried in phones but if there is two way traffic flowing both ways then getting behind the traffic going your way and waiting to overtake is just tough luck.

dublin runner

davedanon wrote: »

My notion of Steady is that it's MP + 30 secs, which chimes with Krusty's, although it's at the faster end of a range he's allowing for because the Steady bit isn't the essential part of the session so the pace isn't critical.

I wouldn't necessarily agree. It's near impossible to pin point training zones in a generic manner. For example, take a seasoned well conditioned runner. The more we train and improve (hopefully) the more our training paces converge. Basically, the training windows become ever smaller, meaning honing in on pace and effort becomes ever more important. While MP +30seconds may be an applicable steady for many, for me it would be too slow. I suppose though that many, including myself, trains too aggressively at 'MP' meaning that steady paced recoveries become slower than they really should be.

I would also add that running on an artificially flat looped route is not the best course of action. It can give the runner a false sense of security. The best option, in my opinion, it to pick a fair to hilly 5 mile loop (as we are discussing peak marathon sessions). Only that way can you really grasp the sense of true MP.

davedanon

cloudatlas wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/fitness/phone-addicts-get-in-my-way-when-i-run-what-should-i-do-1.3059341

What bizarre advice. I always think of pedestrians as having right of way on the pavement and since runners are going at the higher speed the onus is on them to redirect their route. I can understand the frustration if there are two people walking towards you on a very narrow path buried in phones but if there is two way traffic flowing both ways then getting behind the traffic going your way and waiting to overtake is just tough luck.

I don't think that it's entirely serious, somehow. But anyway, why do you think of people walking having a right of way over other people also on foot, but moving more quickly? No-one has the right to block a path by walking four abreast, especially if they are oblivious to their surroundings. I also wouldn't agree that the onus is on the runner to take evasive action. Neither would I argue that it's the walker's sole responsibility. It's all about context. If I'm jogging down a path, and there's a 90 year old woman blocking my way, then I should and will move. If I'm at the tail-end of a 20 mile run ands I'm tired and any extra effort is a chore, then the people walking towards me four abreast damn-well should get out of my way.

cloudatlas

davedanon wrote: »

I don't think that it's entirely serious, somehow. But anyway, why do you think of people walking having a right of way over other people also on foot, but moving more quickly? No-one has the right to block a path by walking four abreast, especially if they are oblivious to their surroundings. I also wouldn't agree that the onus is on the runner to take evasive action. Neither would I argue that it's the walker's sole responsibility. It's all about context. If I'm jogging down a path, and there's a 90 year old woman blocking my way, then I should and will move. If I'm at the tail-end of a 20 mile run ands I'm tired and any extra effort is a chore, then the people walking towards me four abreast damn-well should get out of my way.

I'm not talking about four abreast that's understandable. I was walking yesterday on a narrow path, a runner was coming towards me and there were people the other side walking slowly in the direction the runner was coming in, I felt that the runner should slow down and go behind the people who are walking in their direction and wait to run around them instead of continuing to barrel towards me until I am forced to walk in the mud beside the path. When I was running myself I always felt that people walking on a path are the main users and that if I am going faster then that is my choice and I should make the effort to evade them as normal. Nobody walking knows or indeed cares how far I've run or how fatigued I am, that's my tough.

davedanon

Well, yes, sounds like he was just being rude. If there's a 'hole' to get through, then of course a runner should take it. It's all a matter of context, like I said. I remember one day running along, and the path ahead was completely blocked by a huge gaggle of mostly female walkers, all in hi-viz, ironically enough, considering that they were utterly oblivious to my presence and obliged me to step off onto the road. I could have tried to plough through them, of course, as per the grit doctor's advice, but there some big units amongst their number. I would have bounced off them.

S.L.F.

davedanon wrote: »

blocked by a huge gaggle of mostly female walkers, all in hi-viz, ironically enough, considering that they were utterly oblivious to my presence and obliged me to step off onto the road.

Maybe if you were wearing some split shorts a nice tan with a charming smile they may have noticed you and moved or made a move.;)

davedanon

S.L.F. wrote: »

Maybe if you were wearing some split shorts a nice tan with a charming smile they may have noticed you and moved or made a move.;)

And what makes you think I wasn't?

S.L.F.

davedanon wrote: »

And what makes you think I wasn't?

davedanon wrote: »

they were utterly oblivious to my presence and obliged me to step off onto the road.

hmmmm...

Ed McGroarty

Running on a path support thread needed.

dublin runner

I listened back this on the way from work. It was my second time listening and it struck more a chord with me post-marathon. Although it slightly rambles at points, it discusses more the psychology of the distance, over the the nuts-and-bolts elements of how to train and run the 26.2 miles.

I post it here because it touches late on the need not to put so much focus on hitting that big session; it's not the be all and end all. They point towards 18 miles at marathon pace late on!

I also post it because this very thread is the last remaining thread that actually discusses training and training methods. The last of a dying breed so long may it last!

http://www.scienceofrunning.com/2017/02/episode-49-mastering-the-marathon.html

BeepBeep67

Ed McGroarty wrote: »

Running on a path support thread needed.

Concrete suggestion

overpronator

So with Spring marathon season consigned to the past who's having a crack in the Autumn and where? What plans are people following?
Having done London im back into 5k/10k focused stuff with the club for now, half thinking about Dublin though, will make a call on that once i see where the appetite for another mararthon block is come July.

pgarr

overpronator wrote: »

So with Spring marathon season consigned to the past who's having a crack in the Autumn and where? What plans are people following?
Having done London im back into 5k/10k focused stuff with the club for now, half thinking about Dublin though, will make a call on that once i see where the appetite for another mararthon block is come July.

Sounds like a good plan over !

I'm gearing up for Longford myself - friends wedding in early September and longford happens to be just before it.

Currently base building and am going to jump into AM 12 week 70 to 85 mile plan then.

Duanington

Back to Berlin for me - while I had a good run there last year ( 2.58), I can't honestly say that I left it all out on the course so I've spent the winter getting a bit tougher, ran some XC ( one of which was a proper painfest), currently preparing to race over 5k, 5 mile and 10k before diving back into marathon training in July(ish).
The physical stuff seems to come easier to me than the mental side of racing\training , I tend to train very well but race at a level just inside the boundary of my comfort zone so the shorter races ( and associated training) will hopefully make me that bit tougher and a little faster.

Edit - current mileage is in and around 75-80 per week which I'm hoping will stand to me come marathon training time

AuldManKing

Looks like Dublin for me.
I'm on hols July/Aug so the best for the training plan will be Dublin (or later).

I'm thinking of following JD 3rdEd 2Q plan for this as I've really enjoyed the variety in the 10k plan that I'm following.
If I feel that I'm stretching myself with this plan - the back up plan will be to do what I done for San Seb and do P&D mixed with the Steve Way sessions.

Current mileage ~60 per week with regular long runs of 16-17m and a good few MP sessions completed already.
I reckon my Marathon mileage will peak at 85m.

Interested in DD' thoughts about training hard but racing in the boundaries of comfort - I feel I'm guilty of that.
I know that when TRR races, he is completely spent and his legs in bits - whereas I'd be able for a good few miles the day after a race.
I don't know if this is a mental aspect or just ability??

Duanington

AuldManKing wrote: »

Interested in DD' thoughts about training hard but racing in the boundaries of comfort - I feel I'm guilty of that.
I know that when TRR races, he is completely spent and his legs in bits - whereas I'd be able for a good few miles the day after a race.
I don't know if this is a mental aspect or just ability??

I'm almost certain its a mental thing A - running a few cross country races over the winter opened my eyes to that. Racing against actual humans and other clubs as opposed to racing against a clock or a watch gave a different feel to racing. One race in particular ( Leinster Inters) was a good example of that, the course was the usual muck\clumpy grass, there was a medal on the line and I was being told as much on the way around the track, towards the end of the race, I had coaches and clubmates telling me that I needed to work harder and chase down the man ahead - if I wanted it bad enough. It seemed an impossible task at first but I wore him down, passed and held him off in a sprint finish.
The voices in the head were essentially drowned out on the way around the course...and in the end, it was just a case of running like f*ck and hoping for the best. Didn't look at the watch once obviously, it wasn't important at all.

When I went home and looked at the splits, I couldn't believe how quickly I had moved over the grass towards the end. Not once did I look at the watch throughout the race and yet I wasn't far off 5 mile road pace for most of the race ( quicker at times). The sprint finish was a genuine sprint too, fueled by the fear of losing a place as opposed to chasing a time

The point is, physically it was there and if I was chasing a time rather than a man\medal, there's always a way out, another race, another time, nobody will notice etc.

How many times have we PB'd and been delighted with it ....for about a day and then start to pinpoint times when we could have switched on a bit better and squeezed a little more out?

In this instance, I surprised myself with the performance because I actually didn't think I had enough training done to put it in.....I was wrong and I know I've been wrong in other races too....a bit of hurt doesn't mean you're not strong\fit\fast enough and that's something I for one need to learn

Krusty_Clown

AuldManKing wrote: »

I know that when TRR races, he is completely spent and his legs in bits - whereas I'd be able for a good few miles the day after a race.
I don't know if this is a mental aspect or just ability??

I'd be the same as you, while TRR would be the same as one of my training buddies. It was once justified to me as a slow-twitch Vs fast-twitch thing, but personally, I just think we're better trained, and they're just drama queens.

Another way of thinking about it though, is that we're both a good chunk older than our racing-centric colleagues, so our internal combustion engines (which have put a lot more miles (years) on the clock) are putting restrictions in our ability to maximize the physical effort we can invest in a race. I ran a 3k at the weekend, and while the legs were recovered pretty quickly, the combustion engine took much, much longer!

Krusty_Clown

Rumour has it we have a few new entrants to the sub-3 club. Firstly, congratulations! Secondly, tradition dictates that you come back and tell us about your race experience; things that made the difference and opportunities for future improvement.

Over to you!

Itziger

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Rumour has it we have a few new entrants to the sub-3 club. Firstly, congratulations! Secondly, tradition dictates that you come back and tell us about your race experience; things that made the difference and opportunities for future improvement.

Over to you!

My pleasure. Thanks for the reminder/invite.

As most of you will know by now, I was going for the old sub 3 not for the first time! Remember my sour puss after Frankfurt 2014, Krusty?

It was my 4th real attempt because the 3.05.xx in Karlsruhe 2015 was really a controlled and planned run at that pace. The big question is what did I do differently I guess. Read the report in the Cork City Marathon for other details if you so wish.

Well, I didn't follow a plan. I mixed and matched and used experience. I would say the PM sessions I've posted about on here were key. I had a crisis of confidence about a month out when I asked about the 3x9k with recs between. Thanks to those who said that shorter but with 'steady' rec of say 800 metres was a better session. If I had my time back I'd try one or two more of those. I also like progression runs. For me, these leave you in top shape but they have to be handled with care. You have to be well prepared or you'll fail at 'em and as a result I would look to do them in the last month or so before a target race. I ended up doing just 2 I believe. I'll post a Strava link presently.

The other major factor was the mental side which for me was helped by the home element. I'm a proud Corkman (are there any other types?) and even though I've been away for 27 years now I have a big family still there and their support was greatly appreciated. I was very aware of this being my home marathon when the suffering started and I was more determined than ever not to fold. What percentage of the hanging on was physical and what % mental..... impossible to say. Let's leave it at 50/50.

One minor (I think) angle was the old Carb Loading. I made more of an effort to eat lots of good carbs in the 2 or 3 days previous. I didn't go all tree huggy or anything but I ate well and lots of it. Felt a small bit bloated but ok. This is an area which I think we still have to look at but most scientific reports suggest it does help.

I stayed injury free during training and got in some good steady sessions. A lot of Easy stuff and 2 or 1.5 workouts a week.

If I go again I'd be tempted to try the LR with last 45/60/70 mins at MP or more of those 3x5 mile at MP with the above mentioned 800 Steady. Thanks for the support and suggestions. It is much appreciated and if anything it's a shame more people don't post and share.

davedanon

Itziger wrote: »

It is much appreciated and if anything it's a shame more people don't post and share.

Let me reassure you on that score. If I ever break 3 you WILL hear all about it. Hoo boy.

sideswipe

Just read your race report Itziger, awesome! Many congrats- if you don't mind me asking what did you get your shorter distance times down to in the run up to Cork?

Itziger

sideswipe wrote: »

Just read your race report Itziger, awesome! Many congrats- if you don't mind me asking what did you get your shorter distance times down to in the run up to Cork?

Good question that. I didn't!!

Did a couple of 10k races but they were a bit slower than the previous year. I wasn't too bothered to be honest. I was upping the mileage already and only half thinking of the shorter stuff. I did a downhill Half (almost, at 20.7k) in 1.19.xx which was some 30 seconds slower than two years ago but again that didn't worry me either. My shorter stuff has always indicated sub 3. My problem has been endurance rather than sharpness at 10k.

Still a good question though

OOnegative

Surely being a thick, ignorant langer played a much bigger part than your letting on? All joking aside, what now that the back has been broke on sub 3? Your 10k & Half times point that there's a way faster time in you?

Itziger

OOnegative wrote: »

Surely being a thick, ignorant langer played a much bigger part than your letting on? All joking aside, what now that the back has been broke on sub 3? Your 10k & Half times point that there's a way faster time in you?

ZeroZero, I've not been keeping up to date on your new identities so you'll have to forgive me......

I dunno, I might go the opposite direction, do some of those mental 100k things. 24 hours and all that. My Half time is really 1.22,, the downhill is short as well as downhill!

I'll take a week or two to think about next step. One thing I would like is to finish a marathon strongly. Not so much a blistering time but to do a sub 3 'comfortably', picking up the pace and controlling as opposed to running on empty as I did on Sunday. Though right now I'm not knocking Sunday.

djemba djemba

First of well done Itziger. I was standing at the 23 mile mark, I was talking to one of the 3 hour pacers who started off the marathon. He was going under 3 hours on that course in those conditions was a serious achievement and was worried how many of the group with him would actually make it all the way. I was finishing my long run when you were starting off and even then it was getting warm.

I am back on the sub three hour train again. I ran Dublin last year in 2.57.58. Looking to improve on this time in October. (Cologne)

Its on the Long run I have a question.

My long run last week. The first of my plan I broke it down to 3 sets of 7 km, with a kilometre recovery between each one and a few easy kilometres to start and finish. I mentioned this to a few coaches and they said to not do it like this and what I should be doing is running it a minute slower than marathon pace per mile. So I operate in Km; my current marathon pace is 4.13 per km. If I follow their advice I should be running 4.50 per km in my long run.

I wasn't planning to do my long run in intervals every week just some. Should I mix this type of running in or just run it at 4.50 per km. As the weeks go on should this 4.50 per km not go down slightly. If not am I not just going to end up (all going to plan/well, I know a lot can happen) crossing the line at 2.57.58.

I liked my long run last week because it felt like I was really pushing myself. I suppose its a throw back to my GAA days.

I am following the P&D 18 week more then 85 miles per week Marathon plan.

Any thoughts here will be well received.

Thanks

hot buttered scones

djemba djemba wrote: »

First of well done Itziger. I was standing at the 23 mile mark, I was talking to one of the 3 hour pacers who started off the marathon. He was going under 3 hours on that course in those conditions was a serious achievement and was worried how many of the group with him would actually make it all the way. I was finishing my long run when you were starting off and even then it was getting warm.

I am back on the sub three hour train again. I ran Dublin last year in 2.57.58. Looking to improve on this time in October. (Cologne)

Its on the Long run I have a question.

My long run last week. The first of my plan I broke it down to 3 sets of 7 km, with a kilometre recovery between each one and a few easy kilometres to start and finish. I mentioned this to a few coaches and they said to not do it like this and what I should be doing is running it a minute slower than marathon pace per mile. So I operate in Km; my current marathon pace is 4.13 per km. If I follow their advice I should be running 4.50 per km in my long run.

I wasn't planning to do my long run in intervals every week just some. Should I mix this type of running in or just run it at 4.50 per km. As the weeks go on should this 4.50 per km not go down slightly. If not am I not just going to end up (all going to plan/well, I know a lot can happen) crossing the line at 2.57.58.

I liked my long run last week because it felt like I was really pushing myself. I suppose its a throw back to my GAA days.

I am following the P&D 18 week more then 85 miles per week Marathon plan.

Any thoughts here will be well received.

Thanks

P+D is quite specific about how the long runs are to be done - starting off at 20% slower than marathon pace and gradually picking up the pace so that the last 5 to 10 miles are 10% slower than Marathon pace, except after a tune up race where there to be done a bit slower and you increase the pace if you feel like it to about 15-20% slower than MP. There are long runs with MP miles in them, but nothing like the session you did. The instructions are the same for all the plans regardless of your goal or peak mileage. Do you have the book? I'd recommend getting it if you haven't - even getting the kindle version that you could read on your phone.

djemba djemba

hot buttered scones wrote: »

P+D is quite specific about how the long runs are to be done - starting off at 20% slower than marathon pace and gradually picking up the pace so that the last 5 to 10 miles are 10% slower than Marathon pace, except after a tune up race where there to be done a bit slower and you increase the pace if you feel like it to about 15-20% slower than MP. There are long runs with MP miles in them, but nothing like the session you did. The instructions are the same for all the plans regardless of your goal or peak mileage. Do you have the book? I'd recommend getting it if you haven't - even getting the kindle version that you could read on your phone.

Thanks, I lent it to someone, must chase them up and get it back.

Itziger

I was standing at the 23 mile mark, I was talking to one of the 3 hour pacers who started off the marathon. He said going under 3 hours on that course in those conditions was a serious achievement and was worried how many of the group with him would actually make it all the way.

Thanks Djemba, on the quoted bit I'd like to say, that guy gave me a real boost when I saw him again. He had done about 16 miles with us and then showered and changed. But instead of putting the feet up or going home or whatever, he heads out to that 23 mile mark and cheers on the runners. I thought that was a fantastic gesture. I mean most would have gone to the finish line, maybe get a few glory pics with the guys finishing in 2.58/9 (that's probably what I would have done ) but no, there he is out on the course giving it some. Super effort by the guy. On a joking aside, when I asked him why the Half and Half effort by the pacers and their not doing the full he said, "We'd have had to train to do the Full".