The Sub 3 Support Thread

Itziger

healy1835 wrote: »

Debating with myself about targets in Berlin. The decision is sub 3 or 3:05. I've sort of decided on 3:05 but I wouldn't mind people looking at cold numbers who probably haven't followed my log.

2 previous marathons, DCM '15 &' 16. 3:39 & 3:19
'15 went for 3:30, finished badly, just didn't have it in the legs.

'16 went for 3:20, probably a soft target but wanted to experience finishing a marathon strong. Just dipped under 90 mins in Race Series Half and had a great race on the day, no snags at all, came in 3:19:07

2017: Kicked on from DCM and have trained consistently since, albeit with Feb/Mar/Apr being a little hit and miss due to injury and illness.

This year has included;
30:55 Raheny 5 Mile
65:55 Castleblayney 10 Mile
1:25:52 Tullamore Half

Training block will have been 16 weeks, most in or around 120k, and more or less consisting of LR, 2 sessions, 4 Easy runs. Have only missed a couple of days. LR's have included 3x30k, 2x32k & 1x36k. Haven't done anything during the LR's, no MP miles in them. 3 weeks out, feeling great. Don't want to sell myself short but would hate to go for Sub 3 when it wasnt on.....

Well, Healy, I haven't been following your log, so this is 'cold'. The 5 miler looks a small bit slow for sub 3. The 10 miler as well, if I'm being honest. I'd be around 61.5 or 62 minutes myself (If I ever did a 10 miler that is!!). I know one or two lads with 1.25 half m's who've achieved the sub 3 but it's cutting it close.

All of this depends on whether you're a diesel engine or not!! Your mileage looks very good, 120ks a week for a long stretch. And your mood is good, or at least it was before this post. You say you haven't done anything in the LSR's; that's not a problem in itself but what about your big sessions? Are you happy that you can do MP stuff on tired legs? Have you done med long progression stuff?

Maybe I should look at your log after all! Positives definitely seem to be the good training block and maybe that will serve you better on the day than having a 1.22 Half under your belt.

finisklin

Sounds like sage advise and makes sense regarding my 10k and HM. These are areas I need to focus on. Had worked on Daniels 10k earlier in the year. The program does work on 4 X 1k @ T pace and 5 X 1k @ T pace. I find these good and doable.

You have settled the nerves for me and just need to buckle down and finish out the program.

All to play for.

snailsong

Finisklin, we're in very similar situations. Our times are comparable. I ran a badly paced half in Tullamore, walking at 9.5k and again at 13, finishing 1:26:45. I'm running Chester next month. I had 1:25:30 in mind as the mark to justify a sub 3 attempt. My thoughts are maybe to aim for half way at 1:31 and see how I feel. Would you do likewise? If everything went perfectly on the day we'd have an outside chance. Let us know how you get on.

finisklin

snailsong wrote: »

Finisklin, we're in very similar situations. Our times are comparable. I ran a badly paced half in Tullamore, walking at 9.5k and again at 13, finishing 1:26:45. I'm running Chester next month. I had 1:25:30 in mind as the mark to justify a sub 3 attempt. My thoughts are maybe to aim for half way at 1:31 and see how I feel. Would you do likewise? If everything went perfectly on the day we'd have an outside chance. Let us know how you get on.

Hi snailsong,

I would be happy with the 1.26 HM. Savage time.

Your right about conditions on the day. Last year it came to together for me, knocking 20 mins off my PB.

I don't plan to do anymore races at this point so will be going in slightly blind.

My plan is to aim for 6.45-6.50 per mile for the first 7 miles and see where I am at that point. DCM has a fast few miles at start so hoping that builds me up and gets a bit of momentum going.

overpronator

finisklin wrote: »

Hi snailsong,



My plan is to aim for 6.45-6.50 per mile for the first 7 miles and see where I am at that point. DCM has a fast few miles at start so hoping that builds me up and gets a bit of momentum going.

Not sure that the first 7 miles in Dublin is fast at all to be honest. Be very aware of the conditions when you hit the park. If theres a head wind on the stretch from Chesterfield up to Myos it could bite you hard later in the race especially with Stoneybatter there too if you push too hard.

RayCun

overpronator wrote: »

Not sure that the first 7 miles in Dublin is fast at all to be honest. Be very aware of the conditions when you hit the park. If theres a head wind on the stretch from Chesterfield up to Myos it could bite you hard later in the race especially with Stoneybatter there too if you push too hard.

Yeah, Myos is (I think) the highest point on the course, so there's a fair amount of drag over the first 7 miles.

finisklin

overpronator wrote:

Not sure that the first 7 miles in Dublin is fast at all to be honest. Be very aware of the conditions when you hit the park. If theres a head wind on the stretch from Chesterfield up to Myos it could bite you hard later in the race especially with Stoneybatter there too if you push too hard.

Basing that on conditions last year which worked for me. The park is open and if windy it could make it difficult alright.

For sure the last 6 miles will be tough as previous splits have been slower for 2nd half.

Getting excited for it now to be honest.

squinn2912

Just getting a look at some of these comments now guys.
I've got 3 of 5 sub3s on the Dublin course and I'd certainly avoid going out too hard. The first 15 miles are hilly in lots of places (even though you have a good downhill mile on 6-7) and the course also measures long so while you may be running at 6:45s say, you get the credit for 6:48s or so so that's a mental thing to prepare for, especially at the halfway mark when your watch is saying 13.2 miles!
What has really helped me is the timing of the energy gels. I take them at 6, 10, 14, 18 and 21 and can remember the realisation at 14 that by the time the next gel would kick in (about 15 mins) I'd be homing in on mile 21 with only 5 to go. 
Headwind can be fierce in dublin as mentioned and so it's sensible to judge that but not to overthink it.

Early on I'd say run but don't race because later on when you're not fit to run you'll have to race!

Gutted to be missing it, I'm just back after injury and on low mileage and slow mileage. About to work out a recovery plan. Any suggestions welcome!

rooneyjm

RayCun wrote: »

overpronator wrote: »

Not sure that the first 7 miles in Dublin is fast at all to be honest. Be very aware of the conditions when you hit the park. If theres a head wind on the stretch from Chesterfield up to Myos it could bite you hard later in the race especially with Stoneybatter there too if you push too hard.

Yeah, Myos is (I think) the highest point on the course, so there's a fair amount of drag over the first 7 miles.

Until you turn left at Myos and it goes up again for another 1k. Its a long drag from the Liffey to castleknock college no matter what route you take.

squinn2912

healy1835 wrote: »

Debating with myself about targets in Berlin. The decision is sub 3 or 3:05. I've sort of decided on 3:05 but I wouldn't mind people looking at cold numbers who probably haven't followed my log.

2 previous marathons, DCM '15 &' 16. 3:39 & 3:19
'15 went for 3:30, finished badly, just didn't have it in the legs.

'16 went for 3:20, probably a soft target but wanted to experience finishing a marathon strong. Just dipped under 90 mins in Race Series Half and had a great race on the day, no snags at all, came in 3:19:07

2017: Kicked on from DCM and have trained consistently since, albeit with Feb/Mar/Apr being a little hit and miss due to injury and illness.

This year has included;
30:55 Raheny 5 Mile
65:55 Castleblayney 10 Mile
1:25:52 Tullamore Half

Training block will have been 16 weeks, most in or around 120k, and more or less consisting of LR, 2 sessions, 4 Easy runs. Have only missed a couple of days. LR's have included 3x30k, 2x32k & 1x36k. Haven't done anything during the LR's, no MP miles in them. 3 weeks out, feeling great. Don't want to sell myself short but would hate to go for Sub 3 when it wasnt on.....

The 5 miler and hm look spot on to me for sub3 the blayney run looks odd what happened there?

davedanon

squinn2912 wrote: »

The 5 miler and hm look spot on to me for sub3 the blayney run looks odd what happened there?

A 5 mile time isn't a great marathon indicator: too big a disparity in distance, but I don't know that a 1:26 (virtually) HM guarantees a sub-3. I would have thought that 1:23 or better would be the benchmark. Not that it's unknown for 1:26 HM'ers to break 3 - just unusual.

finisklin

davedanon wrote: »

Not that it's unknown for 1:26 HM'ers to break 3 - just unusual.

I plan to dispel that.....:D

davedanon

finisklin wrote: »

I plan to dispel that.....:D

I wish you all the luck there is.

healy1835

Itziger wrote: »

Well, Healy, I haven't been following your log, so this is 'cold'. The 5 miler looks a small bit slow for sub 3. The 10 miler as well, if I'm being honest. I'd be around 61.5 or 62 minutes myself (If I ever did a 10 miler that is!!). I know one or two lads with 1.25 half m's who've achieved the sub 3 but it's cutting it close.

All of this depends on whether you're a diesel engine or not!! Your mileage looks very good, 120ks a week for a long stretch. And your mood is good, or at least it was before this post. You say you haven't done anything in the LSR's; that's not a problem in itself but what about your big sessions? Are you happy that you can do MP stuff on tired legs? Have you done med long progression stuff?

Maybe I should look at your log after all! Positives definitely seem to be the good training block and maybe that will serve you better on the day than having a 1.22 Half under your belt.

Thanks for the feedback My sessions would have included 5mile up to 8mile Tempo Runs (8mile was @ 4:12km) , 5x2k (best ave 3:51/km), 3x2miles (best ave 6:12/m), 6x1mile (today! relaxed @6:10/mile. My fastest session for this would have averaged 5:45/mile , 16x400m @78/79secs), and a good few hill sessions, usually 10x 300m or 500m)

I think i'm a diesel engine, certainly on the road to becoming one anyway! The 20mile LR on Sunday @4:57/km felt like nothing so vibes are good despite this post

squinn2912 wrote: »

The 5 miler and hm look spot on to me for sub3 the blayney run looks odd what happened there?

Castleblayney was first race since Raheny in January, so was a bit of a shock to the system!

davedanon wrote: »

A 5 mile time isn't a great marathon indicator: too big a disparity in distance, but I don't know that a 1:26 (virtually) HM guarantees a sub-3. I would have thought that 1:23 or better would be the benchmark. Not that it's unknown for 1:26 HM'ers to break 3 - just unusual.

Yeah my '1:26' would have been on the lower end of expectations, but a couple of things worked against me on the day, hydration being the main issue I think. I WON'T be making that mistake again. Don't know what came over me in Tullamore...

So anyway, 3:05 will be the target me thinks, and I'm confident I can hit it IF everything goes to plan. Just need to get through the next couple of weeks in one piece, physically and mentally

dna_leri

davedanon wrote: »

squinn2912 wrote: »

The 5 miler and hm look spot on to me for sub3 the blayney run looks odd what happened there?

A 5 mile time isn't a great marathon indicator: too big a disparity in distance, but I don't know that a 1:26 (virtually) HM guarantees a sub-3. I would have thought that 1:23 or better would be the benchmark. Not that it's unknown for 1:26 HM'ers to break 3 - just unusual.

There are no guarantees but 1:26 is fine, especially if it is in the middle of marathon training - it's still 15s per mile faster than 3hr marathon pace.

squinn2912

I agree 1:26 I'd be happy that I'd be in good shape to take on the sub3.
I think you should consider early pacing, I'd rather be just on time up to halfway and maybe gain 2-3 secs from 16-20. I don't like the idea of risking blowing up over chasing back your time. I don't think it's sensible to try to bank time

aero2k

Itziger wrote: »

Well, Healy, I haven't been following your log, so this is 'cold'. The 5 miler looks a small bit slow for sub 3. The 10 miler as well, if I'm being honest. I'd be around 61.5 or 62 minutes myself (If I ever did a 10 miler that is!!). I know one or two lads with 1.25 half m's who've achieved the sub 3 but it's cutting it close.

All of this depends on whether you're a diesel engine or not!! Your mileage looks very good, 120ks a week for a long stretch. And your mood is good, or at least it was before this post. You say you haven't done anything in the LSR's; that's not a problem in itself but what about your big sessions? Are you happy that you can do MP stuff on tired legs? Have you done med long progression stuff?

Maybe I should look at your log after all! Positives definitely seem to be the good training block and maybe that will serve you better on the day than having a 1.22 Half under your belt.

@Healy: Not to contradict Itziger who speaks a lot of sense as always, just to give another perspective. My times from the '09 race series were 31:31, 64:51, and 1:25:00. I was slowing noticeably towards the end of the 10 and half, though that might have been due to the profiles (hills near the end). I ran 2:58:55 in the '09 DCM on a course of similar difficulty. It's probably worth comparing the severity of your shorter races with the flatness of Berlin.

Your mileage will definitely stand to you, I averaged about 50-55miles per week and never went beyond 70.

noelearly

aero2k wrote: »

@Healy: Not to contradict Itziger who speaks a lot of sense as always, just to give another perspective. My times from the '09 race series were 31:31, 64:51, and 1:25:00. I was slowing noticeably towards the end of the 10 and half, though that might have been due to the profiles (hills near the end). I ran 2:58:55 in the '09 DCM on a course of similar difficulty. It's probably worth comparing the severity of your shorter races with the flatness of Berlin.

Your mileage will definitely stand to you, I averaged about 50-55miles per week and never went beyond 70.

So what your saying is Berlin doesn't count because it's flat 😠(That's a wink by the way). Think I'm all set myself now, Pbs have all come in this training block. 30.37 5m 83. 37 HM and last night 17.37 in the 5k. Hope this is enough to see me get under the 3 in Berlin.

healy1835

noelearly wrote: »

So what your saying is Berlin doesn't count because it's flat 😠(That's a wink by the way). Think I'm all set myself now, Pbs have all come in this training block. 30.37 5m 83. 37 HM and last night 17.37 in the 5k. Hope this is enough to see me get under the 3 in Berlin.

You're flying Noel.....do you have a race plan in mind?

noelearly

healy1835 wrote: »

You're flying Noel.....do you have a race plan in mind?

I'm thinking of latching onto the pacers to take all the constant watch checking out of the equation, haven't gone with pacers before so I can imagine it will be fairly busy around them. If I feel good and that's s big IF I might take off at 26 miles ha.

What about yourself

adrian522

Pacers are very hit and miss in Berlin, have a pace band and check it regularly at KM markers. (Garmin wasn't much help to me last year)

squinn2912

noelearly wrote: »

healy1835 wrote: »

You're flying Noel.....do you have a race plan in mind?

I'm thinking of latching onto the pacers to take all the constant watch checking out of the equation, haven't gone with pacers before so I can imagine it will be fairly busy around them. If I feel good and that's s big IF I might take off at 26 miles ha.

What about yourself

I haven't done Berlin before so I can't say much about the pacers there but I've run with them in Dublin and definitely I'd avoid sticking with them. I think you need to plan your own race and stick to that. I found they went much too hard for 20 miles and then tried to stick on the brakes. That doesn't work for guys who are around about the level it's ok for the fellas who are running below their best. As well as that I find the big bunch tend to do a lot of talking and I think that's wasted energy. If you run sub3 pace they will be in sight, I'd advise you to let them run on if they want and then you're in the race at the latter stage and will overtake them and many who burst themselves trying to stay with them for 20 miles or more. I tried it once and had a nightmare. The only reason I'd try to stick with them now is if I were going for 2:55... here's hoping!

Where is this blog is there a link?

aero2k

noelearly wrote: »

So what your saying is Berlin doesn't count because it's flat 😠(That's a wink by the way). Think I'm all set myself now, Pbs have all come in this training block. 30.37 5m 83. 37 HM and last night 17.37 in the 5k. Hope this is enough to see me get under the 3 in Berlin.

I note the wink - lest there be any doubt I was saying that my 5, 10, half and DCM all had similar profiles so would be comparable from that point of view. Berlin should be faster than DCM, but profile isn't the only thing that counts. I ran Rotterdam and DCM in the same year - I don't recall either race as easy but FWIW I was slightly quicker in Dublin in much less favourable weather.

Best of luck to you and your fellow Berliners.

davedanon

The pacers in Dublin are much more reliable and steady than in Berlin. They tend to stay on pace, or just slightly ahead. In Berlin they can be 5 minutes or more out.

squinn2912

davedanon wrote: »

The pacers in Dublin are much more reliable and steady than in Berlin. They tend to stay on pace, or just slightly ahead. In Berlin they can be 5 minutes or more out.

That is ridiculously shameful. Aren't these guys paid to help people achieve specific targets? What's the point of them if they don't to the job to which they are assigned?

Rockyman7

squinn2912 wrote: »

That is ridiculously shameful. Aren't these guys paid to help people achieve specific targets? What's the point of them if they don't to the job to which they are assigned?

selfies,self promotion and free gear ...

davedanon

Rockyman7 wrote: »

selfies,self promotion and free gear ...

Bunch of ingrates, pacers. I don't know how you put up with them.

squinn2912

Consensus seems to be that pacers aren't much help then!
I have a question to throw out. My usual training week is made of 5 runs
1 - easy and short (7.50 p/m)
2 - up to 10 miles tempo 20-25 seconds quicker than MP (6.25 p/m)
3 - easy and short (7.50 p/m)
4 - mile intervals 60 seconds quicker than MP (5.50 p/m)
5 - long run about 60-80 seconds slower than MP (7.40 - 8.10 p/m)
Am I running the tempo run too fast? I'm pretty happy with the other parts of my week and usually do somewhere between 40-55 miles per week. Any other opinions or advice? I'm just back after injury so I'm slowly building up my fitness base and looking at long term goals.

noelearly

squinn2912 wrote: »

Consensus seems to be that pacers aren't much help then!
I have a question to throw out. My usual training week is made of 5 runs
1 - easy and short (7.50 p/m)
2 - up to 10 miles tempo 20-25 seconds quicker than MP (6.25 p/m)
3 - easy and short (7.50 p/m)
4 - mile intervals 60 seconds quicker than MP (5.50 p/m)
5 - long run about 60-80 seconds slower than MP (7.40 - 8.10 p/m)
Am I running the tempo run too fast? I'm pretty happy with the other parts of my week and usually do somewhere between 40-55 miles per week. Any other opinions or advice? I'm just back after injury so I'm slowly building up my fitness base and looking at long term goals.

Them paces are very quick lad in my opinion, if I was to do that weekly my body would definitely break down. Suppose everybody is different but I'm of the opinion that you save that Speed for when it matters. Looking at my running log 75% of my training is done at 7.50-8.30 pace. Friends of mine are constantly going out doing Long Runs in 6.30-7.00. Constantly getting injured too.

Any book I've read doesn't encourage it.

It's just what works for me.mighty impressive you can hit them paces all the same.

Swashbuckler

squinn2912 wrote: »

Consensus seems to be that pacers aren't much help then!
I have a question to throw out. My usual training week is made of 5 runs
1 - easy and short (7.50 p/m)
2 - up to 10 miles tempo 20-25 seconds quicker than MP (6.25 p/m)
3 - easy and short (7.50 p/m)
4 - mile intervals 60 seconds quicker than MP (5.50 p/m)
5 - long run about 60-80 seconds slower than MP (7.40 - 8.10 p/m)
Am I running the tempo run too fast? I'm pretty happy with the other parts of my week and usually do somewhere between 40-55 miles per week. Any other opinions or advice? I'm just back after injury so I'm slowly building up my fitness base and looking at long term goals.

The Tempo run is one that confuses me a bit too but the general consensus from what I've read is a Tempo run should be run somewhere near 10mile/half marathon pace. Given that your marathon pace is 7m/mile I'd imagine a tempo of 6:25 is pretty good. Some more experienced runners might have a different view but I thought as long as it feels "comfortably hard" then you're in the right region. Are all ten miles at that pace or do you build to it gradually?