The Sub 3 Support Thread

aero2k

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Interesting stuff. Did you do many long runs in the lighter shoes before the race itself?

I've had a look at my notes and I did 4 interval sessions in the 13-15 mile range (that includes a long warm-up/warm down) plus 1x16, 1x17, 1x19.5 and 1x23.8 miles, all in the DS Trainers. They're a bit heavier than my DS Racers, but much lightter than 2140s. They have a reasonable amount of support and cushioning.

Abhainn

Terrific reading there aero2k.
It is a great account of someone who began with an achievable but challenging goal in mind and the effort and groundwork that was needed to see that through.

No two people’s preparation will be the same but anyone who is serious about accomplishing a goal should definitely read this

smmoore79

wizwill wrote: »

Amadeus, good idea for this thread.

i missed sub 3 by 9 minutes and here are my lessons learned

1. Done LSR far too fast fueling on gels. All done around 7.00-7.20 pace. I know the purpose of a LSR is to train the body to fuel on fat efficiently but i didn’t put this into practice in the mistaken belief that it would work on the day. I ended up in the farcical situation of going to 22 miles as fast in training than on race day. Next time around i will do the LSR's as LSR's, using mcmillan pacer. Next time around i wont train with gels.

.

I also missed my sub 3, but by 10 minutes and probably due to the same reasons as yourself. My weekly mileage was only 33 to 36 miles leading up to the race. Each training session was done at almost race pace and as a result i would miss training the next day due to tiredness. Also I was probably doing my fartlek sessions incorrectly (30 secs jog, 30 secs a bit faster, 30 secs race pace, 30 secs almost sprinting. i did this repetition 6 times - a bit overkill id imagine). As a result, my pace dropped badly at mile 17 and i physically had to stop at mile 22.5, 23.5 and 24. My lesson learned is also that mileage is key and doing LSR's a good bit slower is also key! Will probably wait til next DCM to go for sub 3 again..

aero2k

Abhainn wrote: »

No two people’s preparation will be the same ...

I strongly agree that no two people's preparation should be the same. I have some thoughts on goal setting and designing training programmes that I'll set down on another occasion.

aero2k

smmoore79 wrote: »

Each training session was done at almost race pace and as a result i would miss training the next day due to tiredness.

I'd say this is a common problem. By doing my hard sessions on Tuesdays and Saturdays I was usually fresh - I did postpone Tues intervals until Wed on a few occasions when I wasn't feeling 100%.

wizwill

smmoore79 wrote: »

I also missed my sub 3, but by 10 minutes and probably due to the same reasons as yourself. My weekly mileage was only 33 to 36 miles leading up to the race.

SM, unfortunately we didnt miss sub 3 for the same reasons, my mileage was from 60 to 85 miles for the 12 weeks leading up to the race. You shouldnt have too much trouble finding those 10 minutes by uping your mileage.

TJC

Just thought i might bump this up a bit..

paddylast

Im glad that was bumped up. What a great read Aero2k! very inspiring.
Hopefully in the next few years i'll be working towards a sub 3 attempt.

well done!

--amadeus--

*boing!*

Bouncing this one back up again since the first of the sub 3 attempts is coming up fairly soon in Barca and with London and Rotterdam in fairly short order afterwards.

I'm only in wk 3 (training for Cork) and struggling with pace at the minute but how about the rest of you? What's working in the training and what's not?

Sosa

Ah.... the ole sub 3 thread rearing itself again.

Im heading for Cork myself and im doing it tergats way (without realising)
12 week program to start mid march,but since christmas i have being doing a 10/12m pmp run every week and either a tempo or intervals...no long stuff though (max 16m) but plenty of races.
By the time i start the program i want new pb's at 10m/10k/5m/4m...thats my speedwork base,then its 12 weeks of mileage aswell as keeping up the speedwork.

Peckham

Well, I'm 9 weeks and 3 days out from London, and tonight's session was an hour on the crosstrainer in the gym. I have a few more of these ahead, but hopefully will be back out on the road the weekend after next.

shels4ever

Peckham wrote: »

Well, I'm 9 weeks and 3 days out from London, and tonight's session was an hour on the crosstrainer in the gym. I have a few more of these ahead, but hopefully will be back out on the road the weekend after next.

Must get a sub 4 support thread for those of us not fast enough , or maybe i just need to run harder

Gringo78

Sosa wrote: »

Im heading for Cork myself and im doing it tergats way (without realising)

+1 to the Tergat way. I had never heard of CV pace until I read his posts in the last week and have since found that I have been doing my intervals at CV pace by accident i.e I was afraid of getting injured by running at 5k pace so I didn't do the intervals faster than 10k pace. in trying to do speed work conservatively I have fallen by accident into doing intervals over the last 5 weeks at whats considered a very beneficial pace for distance runners to train at.

Has me thinking now whats my most important session of the week, the CV intervals or the tempo??? Anyways, I'll continue doing them both and hopefully be in good shape for a sub 3 attempt in Cork. Looks like there'll be a good few of us praying for a cold june bank holiday weekend

dermCu

Gringo78 wrote: »

Has me thinking now whats my most important session of the week, the CV intervals or the tempo???

In my opinion, if you are talking about marathon training, you are wrong on both counts. Surly you'd consider your long run to be the most vital of the week??

CV interval wont count for much when you are holding on for dear life at mile 23

Sosa

Just entered the Wexford half on May 2nd.
€51...nearly broke my heart,but had to be done,i need to race a half before cork.
5 weeks before is perfect,Wexford is only an hour away and it starts at 10:15...not to early,not to late,home by 1pm if i wanted...
ideal...but €51 :eek:

tisnotover

50euro for bayrun too, crazy, but has to be done!

MayoRoadRunner

Hi All, running Roterdam 11th April. All going well so far although had to see a physio this week and had 3 days off the road. Peak mileage has been 65 p.w but mostly mid 50's. Aiming to hit a couple of 70's in the coming 3-4 weeks then taper it down. Only ran one race so far (5km - 16m 30s) so need to get a 10km and a 10m or half into the legs in the next 4-5 weeks as well. Roll on Roterdam! The sooner it comes the less chance of injury if you ask me!
Just out of interest what pace is everyone running their long runs at? I'm doing about 7.20's. Target time is 2.55 (with 5 safety mins!) thanks:)

Krusty_Clown

Must not tempt fate... Must not post on this thread.....
D'oh...

eliwallach

tisnotover wrote: »

50euro for bayrun too, crazy, but has to be done!

Ray D'arcy will be there too!
So, value for money or what!

aero2k

dermCu wrote: »

In my opinion, if you are talking about marathon training, you are wrong on both counts. Surly you'd consider your long run to be the most vital of the week??

CV interval wont count for much when you are holding on for dear life at mile 23

My understanding is that if you want to run a fast marathon (obviously you have to insert your own definition of fast here!) then you need to do long runs and fast runs in training. I think the CV runs increase your lactate threshold pace, so you can run faster without using up all your glycogen. That counts for a lot at 23 miles.
Comparing my DCM '08 and '09 experience, apart from a big increase in weekly mileage from 35/40 up to 55/60, I only had a few more long runs but lots more intervals. I think the CV running made a big difference, along with PMP miles in the long runs.

Gringo78

aero2k wrote: »

My understanding is that if you want to run a fast marathon (obviously you have to insert your own definition of fast here!) then you need to do long runs and fast runs in training. I think the CV runs increase your lactate threshold pace, so you can run faster without using up all your glycogen. That counts for a lot at 23 miles.
Comparing my DCM '08 and '09 experience, apart from a big increase in weekly mileage from 35/40 up to 55/60, I only had a few more long runs but lots more intervals. I think the CV running made a big difference, along with PMP miles in the long runs.

Theres more than one way to skin a cat as the saying goes and theres more than one way to run a fast marathon.

I'm not advocating this approach, nor am I following it, but any type of CV or LT training will lead to a faster marathon. It will not lead to the optimum marathon, you need all the elements of training for that, but if you don't do any long runs you can still run a 'fast' marathon if you have a high LT pace. It will of course be a slow marathon in comparison to what you could acheive but some people will certainly consider it fast.

My 10 mile PB is 62min. I should be able to run sub 3 but I need to also train my endurance to do so so i need to do long runs or else I will fail. However, if I was to say I'll do no long runs greater than 13 miles and I'll target 4 hours in the marathon, will I achieve this? Yes, most likely. 3:30? I would still say probably. 3:15? Still possible but pushing things a bit now. but somewhere there is a breakpoint.

So you can run a sub 3 marathon if you have a LT pace of 6:30 min/ml and do lots of LSR's 20/22 miles and plenty of PMP miles. Or you can have an LT pace of 5:50 and run a Sub 3 marathon with no LSR's at all.

Again though, the optimum way surely to train for a marathon is a mix of tempo's, intervals, LSR's, PMP's, easy miles, recovery miles. The balance required for each individual to achieve their full potential is unique to each athlete I think.

Iinteresting question though, how fast do you need to be able to run 10miles to say you could run a sub 3 marathon with no LSR's?

Krusty_Clown

Gringo78 wrote: »

Interesting question though, how fast do you need to be able to run 10miles to say you could run a sub 3 marathon with no LSR's?

You're assuming that cardio is the only point of failure though. That hitting the wall is the only thing that will stop you completing a marathon in your targeted time. What about cramps? Blisters? Fueling? Joint pain? Chaffing? The long run also prepares you for these things. It conditions the muscles. It toughens the feet. It teaches you what you need to eat and drink. It readies the joints, and teaches you where to apply bodyglide. The LSR means so much more.

10 Mile -> Sub-3 is only an indicator, not a guarantee. you still need endurance.

dermCu

aero2k wrote: »

My understanding is that if you want to run a fast marathon (obviously you have to insert your own definition of fast here!) then you need to do long runs and fast runs in training. I think the CV runs increase your lactate threshold pace, so you can run faster without using up all your glycogen. That counts for a lot at 23 miles.
Comparing my DCM '08 and '09 experience, apart from a big increase in weekly mileage from 35/40 up to 55/60, I only had a few more long runs but lots more intervals. I think the CV running made a big difference, along with PMP miles in the long runs.

Absolutely agree that if you want to run your own optimal (rather than fast !!) marathon that you'll need to combine both elements. The issue of training for efficient glycogen use could be argued either way i.e you could also make the point that the long run provides a lot of the same types of benefits depending on how you execute it. Personally I'd be inclined to leave that debate to exercise physiologists.

As you've said above you have to combine both to run your best marathon. The point I was making was that if you had to focus on only one session then it would have to be the long run. Otherwise you'd have a great 10 mile time but run a really high risk of blowing up late in a marathon. The question that Gringo asks about the where this trade off point happens is interesting.

In your case (without knowing your background) you could take the view that increasing your weekly mileage between 08 and 09 provided you with exactly the same benefits as just increasing the number of your long runs would have.
Obviously you know your body's response best but I do think you might be under valuing the role that the increased mileage played.

In my own experience I feel that a sustained increase in mileage and improved quality of long runs were the big difference in me jumping from 3:15 to 2:55. But as always with marathon running its a very individual thing.

--amadeus--

MayoRoadRunner wrote: »

Just out of interest what pace is everyone running their long runs at? I'm doing about 7.20's. Target time is 2.55 (with 5 safety mins!) thanks:)

That's a black art and a controversial subject! Quite a bit of chat in some of teh other threads about this as well if you look around.

Personally I have the same target time as you and I'm planning on keeping to the P&D guidelines of PMP +10 - 20%, which for us is 7:20 - 8:00. I'll be happier at 7:20 - 7:40 rather than 7:40 - 8:00 but much slower and apparently you don't get the benefit but too fast and you burn too high a % of glycogen so lose out on the efficiency training that is one of the key reasons for LSRs

theboyblunder

--amadeus-- wrote: »

That's a black art and a controversial subject! Quite a bit of chat in some of teh other threads about this as well if you look around.

Personally I have the same target time as you and I'm planning on keeping to the P&D guidelines of PMP +10 - 20%, which for us is 7:20 - 8:00. I'll be happier at 7:20 - 7:40 rather than 7:40 - 8:00 but much slower and apparently you don't get the benefit but too fast and you burn too high a % of glycogen so lose out on the efficiency training that is one of the key reasons for LSRs

Really interesting discussion lads.....

I am at the extreme end of the scale it seems. I am running all of mine at PMP or faster (6'40-6'50 if I can). Granted I am not doing 20-23 miles yet so maybe they dont count as long runs - am up to 17-18ish, but I am coupling this with low mileage overall (30-35 miles per week at the moment - all the rest run at between 6'30 and 6'40 if i can) - so I am well rested going into the long run and well rested after. Its working so far and I agree - there is more than one way to skin a cat.

I read an interview with ryan hall where he mentioned doing 18 mile tempo runs - I have neurarkars (or however you spell it) book and he ramped up the speed of the long run appraching the marathon.

tergat

Gringo78 wrote: »

+1 to the Tergat way. I had never heard of CV pace until I read his posts in the last week and have since found that I have been doing my intervals at CV pace by accident i.e I was afraid of getting injured by running at 5k pace so I didn't do the intervals faster than 10k pace. in trying to do speed work conservatively I have fallen by accident into doing intervals over the last 5 weeks at whats considered a very beneficial pace for distance runners to train at.

Has me thinking now whats my most important session of the week, the CV intervals or the tempo??? Anyways, I'll continue doing them both and hopefully be in good shape for a sub 3 attempt in Cork. Looks like there'll be a good few of us praying for a cold june bank holiday weekend

Gringo78,

Rotating a CV rep workout and a tempo every other week is a good choice but do both in a 'Big workout' fashion. Some examples below:

Two key days for the week are say Wed & Sun for big workout/Long Run and the rest is easy 3-8 mile runs with 2 days of strides added.

Big Workout examples for Tempo/CV would be:

CV- 2-5 miles easy, 6-8*1km with 90 secs jog rec, 2-5 miles easy (Total on avg 14 miles which is SPECIFIC to the Marathon)

Tempo- 2-5 miles easy, 4-8 mile tempo, 2-3 miles easy (Again a long time on your feet but SPECIFIC to the Marathon)

Can you see how the tempo/cv reps are tailored to be specific to the Marathon? If doing same for 5km/10km you may just do 1-2 miles warm up and warm down but with breaks in between. For Marathon workouts you do the whole lot straight with no breaks (just like the race).

Again how many miles you decide to cover in total depends on your age, ability, experience, time on your hands, injury history ..................

Tergat

aero2k

dermCu wrote: »

In your case (without knowing your background) you could take the view that increasing your weekly mileage between 08 and 09 provided you with exactly the same benefits as just increasing the number of your long runs would have.

You're absolutely right, but there's only one way to prove that....

dermCu wrote: »

Obviously you know your body's response best but I do think you might be under valuing the role that the increased mileage played.

Not at all, but as well as increasing the mileage the miles were more focussed - most of my long runs during the last 12 weeks had some PMP miles.

dermCu wrote: »

In my own experience I feel that a sustained increase in mileage and improved quality of long runs were the big difference in me jumping from 3:15 to 2:55. But as always with marathon running its a very individual thing.

I think the bits in bold gave me a similar improvement. Here I'm using the term "long runs" to include my Tuesday sessions which were typically 12-14 miles and included intervals.

MayoRoadRunner

That's a black art and a controversial subject! Quite a bit of chat in some of teh other threads about this as well if you look around.

Personally I have the same target time as you and I'm planning on keeping to the P&D guidelines of PMP +10 - 20%, which for us is 7:20 - 8:00. I'll be happier at 7:20 - 7:40 rather than 7:40 - 8:00 but much slower and apparently you don't get the benefit but too fast and you burn too high a % of glycogen so lose out on the efficiency training that is one of the key reasons for LSRs

Cheers Amadeus, Yes was thinking that I am risking losing the benefits from running at slower pace during my long runs. Might push it out to 7.30 pace. I am also following P&D. Trying to stick to the 55 - 70 mile plan. Going well apart from this past week but hoping to get back in the saddle from early next week. Which plan are you following? Any tune up races planned? Do you think running a half marathon two weeks before Rotterdam is too risky? Was thinking of doing Omagh half. thanks

Krusty_Clown

MayoRoadRunner wrote: »

Do you think running a half marathon two weeks before Rotterdam is too risky? Was thinking of doing Omagh half. thanks

In the P&D schedule there's usually a tune-up race on the Saturday (up to 10k) two weeks before the planned marathon and a 17 mile run on the Sunday (I know this as I've just completed that weekend of the program!), so maybe you could skip the 17 mile run and just do the half? It's cutting it very fine. Could you trust yourself to run it at PMP?

MayoRoadRunner

Krusty_Clown It's cutting it very fine. Could you trust yourself to run it at PMP?

Hi Krusty - No chance I would run it at PMP. Feel like I have a few PB's in me now and would like to run the half at full belt. DOn' trust myself so might give it a miss and look for a 10km race that weekend. 9 mile in Calry Sligo next weekend if anyone is looking for something longer than 10km. What marathon are you running? Take it your into your taper now. Good luck with it!