The Sub 3 Support Thread

zulutango

I think I'm capable of doing a sub 3 based on other performances. My most recent race was a HM in October where I did 1:25:27. I took a bit of a break after that, so fitness definitely dropped a bit. I'm currently training for Limerick and it's going alright. I feel that I'm behind though, and that 3 hours probably isn't realistic, and I'm ok with that. I'd be happy with 3:10 or even 3:15 so long as I am building steadily towards a 3 hour marathon this year at some point.

I ran an 18 miler last weekend at 8:01 per mile. I was fairly well spent after it though. I couldn't have gone further if I'd wanted to. I'm just thinking, maybe running the long runs too fast, and it makes more sense to ease off the pace (even though it feels slow)?

Krusty_Clown

zulutango wrote: »

I think I'm capable of doing a sub 3 based on other performances. My most recent race was a HM in October where I did 1:25:27. I took a bit of a break after that, so fitness definitely dropped a bit. I'm currently training for Limerick and it's going alright. I feel that I'm behind though, and that 3 hours probably isn't realistic, and I'm ok with that. I'd be happy with 3:10 or even 3:15 so long as I am building steadily towards a 3 hour marathon this year at some point.

I ran an 18 miler last weekend at 8:01 per mile. I was fairly well spent after it though. I couldn't have gone further if I'd wanted to. I'm just thinking, maybe running the long runs too fast, and it makes more sense to ease off the pace (even though it feels slow)?

Hi Zulutango, 8:01/mile is about 17% slower than your target pace (assuming sub3 is target pace), so it should be in the realms of feasibility, but if you don't have a history of marathon running (can't tell form your post), then you need to build endurance and during that adaptation process, the pace isn't quite as important. So I'd suggest slowing down until you can run 20 miles relatively comfortably (it's always going to hurt somewhat), and then focus on the pace of the long run (for example target plus 10%, finishing at target plus 5%), but for the time being, build endurance. Based on your half marathon, there's no reason you can't run a sub-3, but you have to do the training first.

zulutango

Thanks Krusty! I don't have a history of marathons. This will be my first (aside from a hopeless attempt 15 years ago when I wasn't doing much running). I'll slow down a bit so.

For what it's worth, I found this article which really gets into the science and philosophy behind running slowly. I found it very informative. https://runnersconnect.net/aerobic-training-run-faster-by-running-easy/

gucci

squinn2912 wrote: »

What are you shooting for? If it’s sub3 did you run your 15km at 7s or thereabouts? What was the rest of the week like?
That’s more miles than I would usually do but slower tempo workout. I know what works for me and I tend not to deviate much. I’d try not to chop and change at this stage

I think I had a few crappy weeks with the weather so I just felt like putting in a couple extra just to open out the legs.

Week is something like this:

Sat L.R
Sun Off
Mon Tempo of 8-10 miles (Normally with a few lads)
Tues Easy 10k (Its usually an hour pre work)
Wed 10k with strides / or maybe some hills / Track Session with club, which varies, usually about 25/30 min session.
Thurs Off
Fri Easy 10k

Other years I managed to maybe do a comfortable 20min parkrun on a Sat and LR on the Sunday, iv had to can that this year because of other stuff.

Looking at it now on paper, I'm happy I am doing enough running, just need to see it through with a few good quality sessions and do my proper taper.....but I am more than willing to take on board any advise you folks have.

For context have done 3.08 (Dub '16) and 3.04 (Manchester '17)in last two marathons.

noelearly

gucci wrote: »

Its about 5 weeks until London, training and mileage has been pretty decent and consistent. I do feel a little slower or it feels a little bit tougher than last year though, but I think some of that is psychological as much of my training has been in really cold wet or snowy weather (as I am sure most of you have experienced recently!)

Any tips for how much speed work to try and include in my last few weeks, or will I end up just undoing a lot of work that's already there? I guess I am looken to sharpen up as opposed to gain speed!

I don't have any halfs planned in (time is at a premium with job and life commitments) so don't really have anything to gauge against properly. I did do 15km at MP+10s last Monday and felt pretty good, so maybe its just in my head.


I am following a modified (by me, to suit my life!) P&F 55-70 miles per week plan, so maybe I am just at that leg exhaustion point with the after a few mile heavy weeks.

I read alot of mixed reviews about the Yasso 800 workout, I did this 3 weeks before Berlin. And averaged 2.54 for the 10 x800s. Ran 2.56 in Berlin so it was pretty accurate for me anyway. You can't go wrong with a few 1 km Repeats at your half Marathon pace either.

Testosterscone

zulutango wrote: »

I ran an 18 miler last weekend at 8:01 per mile. I was fairly well spent after it though. I couldn't have gone further if I'd wanted to. I'm just thinking, maybe running the long runs too fast, and it makes more sense to ease off the pace (even though it feels slow)?

+1 to KC's comments. Just regarding this Long run. Was this the first of your cycle? Also how did the splits and course look. 8.01 as an average should be within that realms but if you started off too fast and slowed to that or went out too hard then it doesn't tell the full story.

Also if it was first week back of proper training could just be your body adapting Generally tend to feel muck on my first long run back after a break.

gucci wrote: »

Its about 5 weeks until London, training and mileage has been pretty decent and consistent. I do feel a little slower or it feels a little bit tougher than last year though, but I think some of that is psychological as much of my training has been in really cold wet or snowy weather (as I am sure most of you have experienced recently!)

Any tips for how much speed work to try and include in my last few weeks, or will I end up just undoing a lot of work that's already there? I guess I am looken to sharpen up as opposed to gain speed!

I don't have any halfs planned in (time is at a premium with job and life commitments) so don't really have anything to gauge against properly. I did do 15km at MP+10s last Monday and felt pretty good, so maybe its just in my head.


I am following a modified (by me, to suit my life!) P&F 55-70 miles per week plan, so maybe I am just at that leg exhaustion point with the after a few mile heavy weeks.

I wouldn't do anything dramatic at this point. 5 weeks to go a change in approach would more than likely do more harm than good. It is perfectly normal to feel like that with 5 weeks to go you are in the throngs of the heavy part of your training that cumulative fatigue is what you are aiming for and that is where you are gonna get most benefit in the taper.

Cold weather will definitely have had an impact on efforts this year but as long as you are consistent and the training is appropriate and you haven't made too many huge modifications my advice would be to trust in the plan to see you true and trust your training.

zulutango

Testosterscone wrote: »

+1 to KC's comments. Just regarding this Long run. Was this the first of your cycle? Also how did the splits and course look. 8.01 as an average should be within that realms but if you started off too fast and slowed to that or went out too hard then it doesn't tell the full story.

Also if it was first week back of proper training could just be your body adapting Generally tend to feel muck on my first long run back after a break.

Splits were steady all the way, varying by only a second or two per mile throughout the whole distance. I finished at the same pace that I started. Course was mostly flat, with only two slight hills. Weather conditions were poor. Very cold with snow falling, so I had lots of layers on, and I think that probably played a part.

It wasn't the first week back, but it was the first proper long run. I missed a couple of long runs in the early weeks of the programme due to weather and travel difficulties. Playing a bit of catch up now.

gucci

Testosterscone wrote: »

I wouldn't do anything dramatic at this point. 5 weeks to go a change in approach would more than likely do more harm than good. It is perfectly normal to feel like that with 5 weeks to go you are in the throngs of the heavy part of your training that cumulative fatigue is what you are aiming for and that is where you are gonna get most benefit in the taper.

Cold weather will definitely have had an impact on efforts this year but as long as you are consistent and the training is appropriate and you haven't made too many huge modifications my advice would be to trust in the plan to see you true and trust your training.

Thanks for the reassurances, I think after writing it down and reflecting on it, I know that its stupid to try and do anything rash now. There are of course no quick fixes for marathon training!
Just got to follow it through and put in the quality where it counts the next few weeks and then just see what's there on the day.

kerrylad1

zulutango wrote: »

Splits were steady all the way, varying by only a second or two per mile throughout the whole distance. I finished at the same pace that I started. Course was mostly flat, with only two slight hills. Weather conditions were poor. Very cold with snow falling, so I had lots of layers on, and I think that probably played a part.

It wasn't the first week back, but it was the first proper long run. I missed a couple of long runs in the early weeks of the programme due to weather and travel difficulties. Playing a bit of catch up now.

Hi z,myself and p32 have been tipping away doing long runs each weekend since you last ran with us.Hope the trail running went well.I'm starting my taper for Manchester after tomorrow mornings long run.I know Saturday doesn't suit you.P32 has another 4, 20+ long runs left.I will tell him pm you tomorrow,when I see him,to sort out a meet up if you like?

zulutango

That would be great, kerrylad. I never did that trail HM in the end. Got stuck in Prague that weekend because the airports were closed here with the snow! Tried running over there but I didn't last long in -13C !! How are you fixed for Manchester? I should be able to manage Saturdays for long runs from here on. Sunday is most suitable though, but I'm more flexible than before.

kerrylad1

zulutango wrote: »

That would be great, kerrylad. I never did that trail HM in the end. Got stuck in Prague that weekend because the airports were closed here with the snow! Tried running over there but I didn't last long in -13C !! How are you fixed for Manchester? I should be able to manage Saturdays for long runs from here on. Sunday is most suitable though, but I'm more flexible than before.

I'm good,missed a full weeks training,like urself,life just got in the way.My legs feel like cement blocks so taper can't come quick enough.p32 is doing his long run now Sunday,so I just text him to pm you.Next weekend then,I will join ye Sunday and bow out after 13 miles.

kerrylad1

zulutango wrote: »

That would be great, kerrylad. I never did that trail HM in the end. Got stuck in Prague that weekend because the airports were closed here with the snow! Tried running over there but I didn't last long in -13C !! How are you fixed for Manchester? I should be able to manage Saturdays for long runs from here on. Sunday is most suitable though, but I'm more flexible than before.

How did today's run go?

zulutango

kerrylad1 wrote:

How did today's run go?

It went very well. Thanks for setting it up! We did 20 miles at a good pace. Didn't feel it go by. Feeling it in the legs now but not as bad as I expected!

zulutango

I ran 31km last night because I missed my long run at the weekend due to illness. I was a full 25 seconds per km slower than the long run I did 9 days previously and I suffered far more last night. I am having severe doubts about my ability to pull off anything close to 3 hours in Limerick now. I find it hard to believe I can run significantly faster and significantly further in just a month's time.

Am I missing something here? Is it normal to feel so wrecked after a long, slow run. I'm kind hoping that there's some quirk of physiology which means that this is actually normal, and I will be able for the faster pace and longer distance on the day.

28064212

zulutango wrote: »

I ran 31km last night because I missed my long run at the weekend due to illness. I was a full 25 seconds per km slower than the long run I did 9 days previously and I suffered far more last night. I am having severe doubts about my ability to pull off anything close to 3 hours in Limerick now. I find it hard to believe I can run significantly faster and significantly further in just a month's time.

Am I missing something here? Is it normal to feel so wrecked after a long, slow run. I'm kind hoping that there's some quirk of physiology which means that this is actually normal, and I will be able for the faster pace and longer distance on the day.

Would the fact that you've just been sick not be a fairly likely factor?

zulutango

28064212 wrote: »

Would the fact that you've just been sick not be a fairly likely factor?

I can't rule it out, but I don't think so. The illness wasn't the kind that takes a huge physical toll.

I'm just wondering if I should be sauntering through these long, slow runs at this stage. Or is it a case that the long run is always hard going even if it's 90 secs per mile off target pace.

Edit to say that the heart rate was low and the breathing was nice and relaxed throughout.

kerrylad1

zulutango wrote: »

I can't rule it out, but I don't think so. The illness wasn't the kind that takes a huge physical toll.

I'm just wondering if I should be sauntering through these long, slow runs at this stage. Or is it a case that the long run is always hard going even if it's 90 secs per mile off target pace.

Edit to say that the heart rate was low and the breathing was nice and relaxed throughout.

Hi z,p32 told me ye had a very good long paced run the week before.I'd say you being sick,had a lot to do with ur latest run.Wait to see how yer run this weekend goes,before making a call.Your young,loads of time to get the sub 3.You most definitely have the speed,going bye your shorter race times.

squinn2912

Just back on the saddle after almost a month of inactivity due to injury then illness. Struggled to reintroduce myself to training with a hard pushed 30 mile week. 12 today at 7:36 pace after 5 yesterday at 6:25 pace (plus warm up and cool down).
I’m signed up for Derry in 9 weeks and when I PB’ed in the half marathon in late February I was getting excited. Now I’ve accepted that things may not work out so the pressure is off. I’m going to take a week or two pushing the miles up and try to get into marathon shape anyway. If it doesn’t work out there’s little can be done but I’m going for sub3.
At the moment just being back training is a rush for me. I couldn’t even bring myself to read the posts on here in the last few weeks so im glad to have my buzz back

squinn2912

Bit of an update.
A 51 mile week last week followed by a 49 mile week this week so far. 6 mile tempo and 4xmile repeats at 5:55. 20 mile run today. I feel like I’m fairly close to being on track. Anyone chasing sub3? What sort of running are you doing now?

OOnegative

squinn2912 wrote: »

Bit of an update.
A 51 mile week last week followed by a 49 mile week this week so far. 6 mile tempo and 4xmile repeats at 5:55. 20 mile run today. I feel like I’m fairly close to being on track. Anyone chasing sub3? What sort of running are you doing now?

Good man, looking good for Derry.

kerrylad1

squinn2912 wrote: »

Bit of an update.
A 51 mile week last week followed by a 49 mile week this week so far. 6 mile tempo and 4xmile repeats at 5:55. 20 mile run today. I feel like I’m fairly close to being on track. Anyone chasing sub3? What sort of running are you doing now?

Great to see your back at it squinn.If I did those mile repeats,I would end up in hospital.Great stuff man.I did 2:58 in Manchester 2 week's ago.I've been building the mileage up very slowly since.No speed work.16 miles very slow, in the morning,and taper again for Limerick.I am Going to go for sub 3 again.,despite most people telling me, I'm mad.If I blow up,so be it.Would not be the first time,and won't be the last.Got a free entry,so why not.Best of luck with the training.Keep us updated.

OOnegative

kerrylad1 wrote: »

Great to see your back at it squinn.If I did those mile repeats,I would end up in hospital.Great stuff man.I did 2:58 in Manchester 2 week's ago.I've been building the mileage up very slowly since.No speed work.16 miles very slow, in the morning,and taper again for Limerick.I am Going to go for sub 3 again.,despite most people telling me, I'm mad.If I blow up,so be it.Would not be the first time,and won't be the last.Got a free entry,so why not.Best of luck with the training.Keep us updated.

Kerry men don’t listen!! You’ll fly it no doubt.

kerrylad1

OOnegative wrote: »

Kerry men don’t listen!! You’ll fly it no doubt.

I'm a born and bred Limerick man oonegative.There is a long and boring story behind my user name.I will not bore you with the details.

OOnegative

kerrylad1 wrote: »

I'm a born and bred Limerick man oonegative.There is a long and boring story behind my user name.I will not bore you with the details.

Either way, hope Limerick goes well, great race. Really enjoyed the whole experience last year, up until 21 miles it was a fantastic marathon!!! Plus you showed how it SHOULD be run, go do the same this year.

squinn2912

Lovin reading those posts lads! Congratulations lad fantastic running! The reps were on a treadmill so don’t know if that counts!! What sort of training you do for Manchester?

kerrylad1

squinn2912 wrote: »

Lovin reading those posts lads! Congratulations lad fantastic running! The reps were on a treadmill so don’t know if that counts!! What sort of training you do for Manchester?

I also do,5 out of my 6 weekly runs,on the Treadmill,so fair play man.It counts.I just did my normal stuff, squinn.Each week was, 65 to 75 miles for the 12 week's leading up to Marathon day.Then,every 2nd week,I did a 20 miler,with 14/15/16 at MP.Every other week was just easy miles at 8 min pace.I'd love to do a proper Plan,but with the wife's crazy shift work,I'm resigned to running on the the treadmill,with the baby monitor for company.

Bahanaman

kerrylad1 wrote:

Great to see your back at it squinn.If I did those mile repeats,I would end up in hospital.Great stuff man.I did 2:58 in Manchester 2 week's ago.I've been building the mileage up very slowly since.No speed work.16 miles very slow, in the morning,and taper again for Limerick.I am Going to go for sub 3 again.,despite most people telling me, I'm mad.If I blow up,so be it.Would not be the first time,and won't be the last.Got a free entry,so why not.Best of luck with the training.Keep us updated.

What's the Manchester course like?

echancrure

Bahanaman wrote: »

What's the Manchester course like?

Getting the itch at 2am Bahanaman? :P

kerrylad1

Bahanaman wrote: »

What's the Manchester course like?

Apart from a big climb from the 12 to 13 mile mark,it's fairly flat.A few small drags here and there,that you would expect in any city Marathon.I think most on here got a pb,(except me)which probably shows,just how fair the course is.

squinn2912

FLat 10k in Dundalk tonight I came in in 38:11. Was a tough disappointed not to break 38 but fairly happy. What you guys think in terms of sub 3?