The Sub 3 Support Thread

squinn2912

Well folks. Just wondering what you guys use to gauge your marathon pace for ambitious yet realistic targets?
Almost halfway through my programme and it’s going well. Coach not keen on me racing but I did rock n roll and came in at 1:23:13 pb. Last week I did just shy of 65 miles and it has me considering just what’s in me. He’s instructedtempo and interval paces but I’m not sure what the plan is just yet for race day

Peterx

squinn2912 wrote: »

Well folks. Just wondering what you guys use to gauge your marathon pace for ambitious yet realistic targets?
Almost halfway through my programme and it’s going well. Coach not keen on me racing but I did rock n roll and came in at 1:23:13 pb. Last week I did just shy of 65 miles and it has me considering just what’s in me. He’s instructedtempo and interval paces but I’m not sure what the plan is just yet for race day

I came across this one https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/marathon-calculator/ yesterday. Nicely pessimistic and pretends to be scientific about something that is inherently subjective - ie: depends on the subject

65 miles and 1:23:13 projects a marathon time of (drumroll.....) 2:59:19

DC.

The old equation of: your half time x 2 then add 10 mins has proven accurate in the past for me.

squinn2912

Peterx wrote: »

squinn2912 wrote: »

Well folks. Just wondering what you guys use to gauge your marathon pace for ambitious yet realistic targets?
Almost halfway through my programme and it’s going well. Coach not keen on me racing but I did rock n roll and came in at 1:23:13 pb. Last week I did just shy of 65 miles and it has me considering just what’s in me. He’s instructedtempo and interval paces but I’m not sure what the plan is just yet for race day

I came across this one https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/marathon-calculator/ yesterday. Nicely pessimistic and pretends to be scientific about something that is inherently subjective - ie: depends on the subject

65 miles and 1:23:13 projects a marathon time of (drumroll.....) 2:59:19

Wow that’s very conservative! As you say it’s all about the horse!

squinn2912

DC. wrote: »

The old equation of: your half time x 2 then add 10 mins has proven accurate in the past for me.

That sounds close enough to what I’d be thinking.

busterjones

Hi All -

I'm signed up for the Frank Duffy 10 mile at the weekend and interested in opinions on how to adapt plan to prep for it.

Current plan is for 80 miles:

Mon - 6 & 4 recovery
Tues - 9 aerobic
Wed - 15
Thurs - 7 recovery
Fri - 13
Sat - 7 recovery with 6 x 100m
Sun - 18 with 12 at MP

Thanks!

Itziger

Peterx wrote: »

squinn2912 wrote: »

Well folks. Just wondering what you guys use to gauge your marathon pace for ambitious yet realistic targets?
Almost halfway through my programme and it’s going well. Coach not keen on me racing but I did rock n roll and came in at 1:23:13 pb. Last week I did just shy of 65 miles and it has me considering just what’s in me. He’s instructedtempo and interval paces but I’m not sure what the plan is just yet for race day

I came across this one https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/marathon-calculator/ yesterday. Nicely pessimistic and pretends to be scientific about something that is inherently subjective - ie: depends on the subject

65 miles and 1:23:13 projects a marathon time of (drumroll.....) 2:59:19

So subjective that the only thing that matters are anecdotes! I had three 1.22 Halfs under my belt before getting the 2.59.

squinn2912

I find that amazing! Did you fall short during attempts? I think I could get the 1:23 down well but trying to keep my eye on the big one now. Maybe in spring 2019 and just do one marathon next year. 2 is a lot for me

Duanington

Its pretty subjective alright
I know a lad who has a 1.21 half PB ( in the lead up to his marathon) and couldn't break 3....flip side is I know a 1.26 lad that ran 2.58

noelearly

DC. wrote: »

The old equation of: your half time x 2 then add 10 mins has proven accurate in the past for me.

It's a good indicator alright...

squinn2912

Duanington wrote: »

Its pretty subjective alright
I know a lad who has a 1.21 half PB ( in the lead up to his marathon) and couldn't break 3....flip side is I know a 1.26 lad that ran 2.58

Yea I ran 2:58 twice off 1:26 and 1:25. I had done 1:24 but some years previous to those which were in the programme

AuldManKing

busterjones wrote: »

Hi All -

I'm signed up for the Frank Duffy 10 mile at the weekend and interested in opinions on how to adapt plan to prep for it.

Current plan is for 80 miles:

Mon - 6 & 4 recovery
Tues - 9 aerobic
Wed - 15
Thurs - 7 recovery
Fri - 13
Sat - 7 recovery with 6 x 100m
Sun - 18 with 12 at MP

Thanks!

If you are planning on racing it full whack, I'd drop 15 on Wed to 10-12 and the 13 on friday to 6-7 and keep Sat to 5max.

You could always do it as a MP session as well and just change to 10@MP - this has worked well for me in the past.

AuldManKing

Duanington wrote: »

Its pretty subjective alright
I know a lad who has a 1.21 half PB ( in the lead up to his marathon) and couldn't break 3....flip side is I know a 1.26 lad that ran 2.58

I know a lad who ran a 1.26 HM as a training run @ MP and only ran 3.17

squinn2912

Did he blow up?

AuldManKing

squinn2912 wrote: »

Did he blow up?

He trained like a devil, was in super shape and still cramped at Mile 14.
He also ran a 36:09 10k a couple of months previous. Nice chap :pac:

OOnegative

AuldManKing wrote: »

He trained like a devil, was in super shape and still cramped at Mile 14.
He also ran a 36:09 10k a couple of months previous. Nice chap :pac:

Show pony!!!!

squinn2912

Haha that’s ice cold! Do you know what splits are like? My guess is he went out at like 2:50 pace and couldn’t sustain it.

Jmcmen

AuldManKing wrote: »

He trained like a devil, was in super shape and still cramped at Mile 14.
He also ran a 36:09 10k a couple of months previous. Nice chap :pac:

:D:D;)

What doesnt kill you makes you Stronger......

squinn2912

So did an 18 miler this morning and that took me to 66 miles for the week - my most ever. Just had to shout about that! Programme forbthis month is rough but I’m enjoying it

rooneyjm

Hanson Method
Week— Prescribed-Completed
_______(Miles)____(Miles)
....1............26.............46.5
....2............41.............47.0
....3............46.............51.5
....4............45.............36.5
....5............47.............32.5
....6............47.............50.0
....7............54.............54.0
....8............49.............55.0
....9............57.............59.0
...10...........50.............51.0
...11...........61.............62.0
...12...........55.............12.5
...13...........62.............63.0
...14...........55.............52.0
...15...........63.............62.3
...16...........56.............56.5
...17...........55.............43.0
...18...........52.............35.5

Total..........931............868.8

BERLIN - 3.05.31 ( previous pb 3.10.17)
Never really went for sub 3 in the end. Probably no margin for error if I was to do it. Taper madness set in and my right knee was tight all week. Apart from that I felt good as the taper week went on, didn’t bother with the last few runs. Knew beforehand it was going to get warm as the race went on so needed to keep an eye on my effort level and not push too hard.

Started ok slightly outside sub 3 pace. Very congested, space didn’t open up until 5 miles in. Everyone was taking fluid from the first aid station and it was a bit of a tussle. It’s very evident from my splits where the aid stations were loosing 5-10 sec. early on I settled on a pb attempt rather than sub 3 attempt. Was going well, passed half way 1.31.37 and was on for 3.03.xx up to 37/38k. Passed a lot of people in the second half, same as Dublin last year, which gives you a great boost. Picked up some water with a few miles to go and pace dropped off to 7.20 then 7.40, looking for the finish now and very few around me crossed the line.

Happy enough with it, I think the sub 3 is there with more work and a cooler day. For me the Hanson Method works, passed a lot of runners in the second half again. My splits were very consistent with the exception of the last few km again ( 4.20 +\- 2 sec). Roll on next year.

Murph_D

rooneyjm wrote: »

Hanson Method
Week— Prescribed-Completed
_______(Miles)____(Miles)
....1............26.............46.5
....2............41.............47.0
....3............46.............51.5
....4............45.............36.5
....5............47.............32.5
....6............47.............50.0
....7............54.............54.0
....8............49.............55.0
....9............57.............59.0
...10...........50.............51.0
...11...........61.............62.0
...12...........55.............12.5
...13...........62.............63.0
...14...........55.............52.0
...15...........63.............62.3
...16...........56.............56.5
...17...........55.............43.0
...18...........52.............35.5

Total..........931............868.8

BERLIN - 3.05.31 ( previous pb 3.10.17)
Never really went for sub 3 in the end. Probably no margin for error if I was to do it. Taper madness set in and my right knee was tight all week. Apart from that I felt good as the taper week went on, didn’t bother with the last few runs. Knew beforehand it was going to get warm as the race went on so needed to keep an eye on my effort level and not push too hard.

Started ok slightly outside sub 3 pace. Very congested, space didn’t open up until 5 miles in. Everyone was taking fluid from the first aid station and it was a bit of a tussle. It’s very evident from my splits where the aid stations were loosing 5-10 sec. early on I settled on a pb attempt rather than sub 3 attempt. Was going well, passed half way 1.31.37 and was on for 3.03.xx up to 37/38k. Passed a lot of people in the second half, same as Dublin last year, which gives you a great boost. Picked up some water with a few miles to go and pace dropped off to 7.20 then 7.40, looking for the finish now and very few around me crossed the line.

Happy enough with it, I think the sub 3 is there with more work and a cooler day. For me the Hanson Method works, passed a lot of runners in the second half again. My splits were very consistent with the exception of the last few km again ( 4.20 +\- 2 sec). Roll on next year.

Just curious - why so much deviation from the Hanson mileage? From the above only about half of your weeks are within 5 miles of the recommended mileage, some much less. Injury? And if so, how did you adjust? Also, you skipped runs in final week - would you do this again?

MY BAD

How accurate is this predictor?
http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2014/10/running_calculator_introducing_slate_s_marathon_time_predictor_a_better.html

noelearly

rooneyjm wrote: »

Hanson Method
Week— Prescribed-Completed
_______(Miles)____(Miles)
....1............26.............46.5
....2............41.............47.0
....3............46.............51.5
....4............45.............36.5
....5............47.............32.5
....6............47.............50.0
....7............54.............54.0
....8............49.............55.0
....9............57.............59.0
...10...........50.............51.0
...11...........61.............62.0
...12...........55.............12.5
...13...........62.............63.0
...14...........55.............52.0
...15...........63.............62.3
...16...........56.............56.5
...17...........55.............43.0
...18...........52.............35.5

Total..........931............868.8

BERLIN - 3.05.31 ( previous pb 3.10.17)
Never really went for sub 3 in the end. Probably no margin for error if I was to do it. Taper madness set in and my right knee was tight all week. Apart from that I felt good as the taper week went on, didn’t bother with the last few runs. Knew beforehand it was going to get warm as the race went on so needed to keep an eye on my effort level and not push too hard.

Started ok slightly outside sub 3 pace. Very congested, space didn’t open up until 5 miles in. Everyone was taking fluid from the first aid station and it was a bit of a tussle. It’s very evident from my splits where the aid stations were loosing 5-10 sec. early on I settled on a pb attempt rather than sub 3 attempt. Was going well, passed half way 1.31.37 and was on for 3.03.xx up to 37/38k. Passed a lot of people in the second half, same as Dublin last year, which gives you a great boost. Picked up some water with a few miles to go and pace dropped off to 7.20 then 7.40, looking for the finish now and very few around me crossed the line.

Happy enough with it, I think the sub 3 is there with more work and a cooler day. For me the Hanson Method works, passed a lot of runners in the second half again. My splits were very consistent with the exception of the last few km again ( 4.20 +\- 2 sec). Roll on next year.

Sub 3 definetly on the cards considering your low mileage for Berlin. Well done

noelearly

Mellow Yellow 26.2 wrote: »

How accurate is this predictor?
http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2014/10/running_calculator_introducing_slate_s_marathon_time_predictor_a_better.html

Gave me 4 minutes too slow.. The runners world one was a minute and a half out. The mcmillan one was more accurate.

rooneyjm

Murph_D wrote: »

rooneyjm wrote: »

Hanson Method
Week— Prescribed-Completed
_______(Miles)____(Miles)
....1............26.............46.5
....2............41.............47.0
....3............46.............51.5
....4............45.............36.5
....5............47.............32.5
....6............47.............50.0
....7............54.............54.0
....8............49.............55.0
....9............57.............59.0
...10...........50.............51.0
...11...........61.............62.0
...12...........55.............12.5
...13...........62.............63.0
...14...........55.............52.0
...15...........63.............62.3
...16...........56.............56.5
...17...........55.............43.0
...18...........52.............35.5

Total..........931............868.8

BERLIN - 3.05.31 ( previous pb 3.10.17)
Never really went for sub 3 in the end. Probably no margin for error if I was to do it. Taper madness set in and my right knee was tight all week. Apart from that I felt good as the taper week went on, didn’t bother with the last few runs. Knew beforehand it was going to get warm as the race went on so needed to keep an eye on my effort level and not push too hard.

Started ok slightly outside sub 3 pace. Very congested, space didn’t open up until 5 miles in. Everyone was taking fluid from the first aid station and it was a bit of a tussle. It’s very evident from my splits where the aid stations were loosing 5-10 sec. early on I settled on a pb attempt rather than sub 3 attempt. Was going well, passed half way 1.31.37 and was on for 3.03.xx up to 37/38k. Passed a lot of people in the second half, same as Dublin last year, which gives you a great boost. Picked up some water with a few miles to go and pace dropped off to 7.20 then 7.40, looking for the finish now and very few around me crossed the line.

Happy enough with it, I think the sub 3 is there with more work and a cooler day. For me the Hanson Method works, passed a lot of runners in the second half again. My splits were very consistent with the exception of the last few km again ( 4.20 +\- 2 sec). Roll on next year.

Just curious - why so much deviation from the Hanson mileage? From the above only about half of your weeks are within 5 miles of the recommended mileage, some much less. Injury? And if so, how did you adjust? Also, you skipped runs in final week - would you do this again?

Not much deviation, only weeks 4/5 (holidays), 12(holidays), 17/18 (taper) were below the recommended mileage. The rest were there or above. The family holidays I couldn't do anything about really apart from not go. Reduced mileage in weeks 4/5 I didn't think would have any bearing as I came into the plan doing 40+ miles a week for several weeks and it was early on. The week 12 definitely didn't help coming off a 10 mile pb. Felt tired the following week and knocked me out of my stride a little. Weeks 17/18, did the 10 miles at MP and then started the taper. Personally I don't think its an issue over tapering and felt a bit crap earlier on in the week so just decided to rest, id do it again. I've had no injuries following Hanson in 2 cycles

kerrylad1

Rooneyjm,what was ur 10K Pb before that latest sub 3 effort.I've never done a half myself,but I feel if I can do a low 37;high 36,I'm on for it.

rooneyjm

kerrylad1 wrote: »

Rooneyjm,what was ur 10K Pb before that latest sub 3 effort.I've never done a half myself,but I feel if I can do a low 37;high 36,I'm on for it.

It was a 10mile pb, 1.04.40, 6.30 per mile. Not earth shattering by any means. Met a lad in Berlin who did a low 37 this summer and he finished 3.10 so it hard to predict.

Murph_D

rooneyjm wrote: »

Not much deviation, only weeks 4/5 (holidays), 12(holidays), 17/18 (taper) were below the recommended mileage. The rest were there or above. The family holidays I couldn't do anything about really apart from not go. Reduced mileage in weeks 4/5 I didn't think would have any bearing as I came into the plan doing 40+ miles a week for several weeks and it was early on. The week 12 definitely didn't help coming off a 10 mile pb. Felt tired the following week and knocked me out of my stride a little. Weeks 17/18, did the 10 miles at MP and then started the taper. Personally I don't think its an issue over tapering and felt a bit crap earlier on in the week so just decided to rest, id do it again. I've had no injuries following Hanson in 2 cycles

Thanks for that. I ask as a Hanson user myself. Apart from the weeks you mention there are a few weeks that are 5+ miles OVER the target. From my understanding the Hanson folks don’t recommend extra mileage, which they would feel compromises the adjacent SOS quality sessions and long runs. Either way, you knocked out an excellent result.

MrMacPhisto

Murph_D wrote: »

Thanks for that. I ask as a Hanson user myself. Apart from the weeks you mention there are a few weeks that are 5+ miles OVER the target. From my understanding the Hanson folks don’t recommend extra mileage, which they would feel compromises the adjacent SOS quality sessions and long runs. Either way, you knocked out an excellent result.

No problem doing extra mileage Murph. They just recommend its ER on easy days or the ER warm ups or cool downs on the tues/thurs session days. They do stress not to add mileage to the LR outside of the 25-30% total weekly mileage.

Where you successful with the Hanson Plan? I have followed it a couple of times and have enjoyed it. I think the simplicity of the format suits me. I tend to shift it around a little to fit in a few races or holidays etc, but take care to make sure I have sufficient easy days in between the SOS days.

In regards the taper of the plan, I tend to shorten the 10mile MP run 10 days out to 6 miles and reduce the other sessions by a rep or so. I feel the plan is overkill during taper for me.

Safiri

Plans are a guide, nothing more or nothing less. An author who may have some grasp of solid grasp of training concepts is still only an author and not a coach. When someone is following a generic training plan, they have to become their own coach and make decisions based on their own experiences. One of the phrases I see around here alot is "stick to or trust the plan" and it's a minor pet peeve of mine along with numerous other training mottos. The tend to be hugely rigid and training has to be flexible; There has to be a plan but you should never stop questioning it or making adjustments as it progresses. As for running 5 miles some weeks and a bit less other weeks especially early on the plan, I'm sure any coach wouldn't directtly reccomend against it and the answer would probably lie somewhere along the line of it depends.

There is one good training motto I think though and is probably the most important one. "Listen to your body" and that should be put above all plans. Training and your body shift moods, a training plan doesn't.