Learning a language?

dlofnep

Is Gaidhlig taught in schools over there? Even as an optional cultural subject?

drakshug

Well. It wasn't in my days but it seems to be gaining in popularity. The Exec is bunging up bilingual signs even in areas where Gaelic was never spoken. Had a chuckle when my Ayrshire school's website described it as Ard Scoil .........
Gaeldom isn't the whole of Scotland. Heritage wise, a helluva lot of us south of the highland line are of Highland descent but the lowlands weren't Gaelic. The only place in the south that spoke Gaelic was Galloway. Two cultures and one imposed on the other and has almost destroyed it (Scots on Gaelic) but we shouldn't try to impose a Gaelic culture/language on places that never ever spoke it.

dlofnep

Yeah, I watched an interesting documentary on it - Scotland was essentially divided into 2 seperate cultures, and it wouldn't be by all means strange if it had eventually evolved into two separate countries.

Still though - it's nice to see it still survive. Is there any hostility towards it? Obviously here - Irish can have political overtones, especially in the north - so hostility is often seen. I wonder how Gaidhlig does in Scotland.

drakshug

It is seen as country (Culchy?). Teuchter.
Also seen as romantic but not seen as identifying Scotland as a whole.
We speak Scots but some speak Gaelic at home. My name and surname is Gaidhlig and some of my family still speak it but only 80000 Scots do, out of 5 million. There are probably more Gaidhlig speakers in Canada. Nobody is hostile to it and with the parliament there is more money for BBC Alba etc. It is part of a lot of Scot's heritage and we respect it. Also in everyday Scots English we use a lot more Gaelic than I've noticed in Irish English. It is bastardized Gaelic but still recognizably Gaelic. You see, Scots is also a language. It was a state language when Scotland was independent and has literature written in Scots. When the Gaels were forced off the land, they moved to the big cities and added their language to it, preserving many words and phrases. For all that, I don't think the Government should be promoting that the whole of Scotland become Gaelic. It wouldn't work. It hasn't in Ireland and it misn't even linguistically correct. If you go far back enough, most of the lowlands spoke Welsh.

dlofnep

I'm curious about the Scots thing - as I had always considered it as just a dialect of English, akin to Hiberno-English - but spelt phonetically opposed to the English spelling of Hiberno-English.

I know it's origins go back 100's of years and as such - it's a distinct part of lowland Scottish culture. In terms of Scots today - is it still spoken and spelt accordingly or how does it work?

drakshug

The UK government treat Scots as a minority language. Others see it as a dialect. I'd consider it as a language due to the fact it has it's own dialects, a long and large body of literature and is the official language of the Scottish parliament. A similar debate raged about Norwegian being a dialect of Danish at one point too. It is mistaken to say it is a dialect of English though. It isn't. It is a Germanic language, still using words closer to the original Fresian/ Anglo saxon.
As to how many speak it. That is difficult to say as most Scots will code switch from Scots to standard English depending on the situation. There is also a speech continuum ranging from broad Scots up to standard English. Remember, we were told that speaking in broad Scots was common and if we wanted to get ahead, then we had to speak standard English. We were told that broad Scots was bad English at school. That is changing now thanks to the Scottish parliament.
As for spelling. We spell it phonetically and it all depends on where you are from, what dialect and words you use. We didn't get taught broad Scots at School. It is a language for the home and with mates and very handy abroad as ithers dinnae ken whit yer haverin aboot

dlofnep

Ah fair enough. Interesting all the same.

Did Scots start from English, or did it mutually grow as a language alongside English - each having an effect on each other?

drakshug

Well afaik it was a parallel growth from the Anglic dialects of the south. I tend not to use wiki but it has quite concise history of Scots.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Scots_language

And this table shows the languages that came from Old English

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_languages

I speak fluent Spanish and French, although both still need a lot of work. I barely get to use them these days. I learned German at school for 5 years but have lost most of it now. I picked up some Dutch from living in Belgium and I understand a lot of Portuguese. I'd like to pick up a new language but can't decide on which one!

dory

I never know when to say I'm fluent! But I'm comfortable conversing in English, Irish and Spanish. I studied French and German in school and have since spent tim learning Hindi, Khasi and Arabic. At the moment I am trying to get some classes in Russian to impress a friend and prepare for a Russian trip next year.

anplaya

Tobias Happy Lasagna wrote: »

I am a 18 year old student who just did her leaving cert.

I speak fluent English obiv.

Speak average/moderate Irish.

Speak way more French than I do Irish. Can hold a good conversation in French. (Know around seven tenses). I write French better than I speak it.

I can speak basic greetings in Polish, Lithuanian. (Hello, How are you, I'm good, I'm hungry, I'm tierd, And you?, Bye ect)

I also know a few words of Italian and Spanish. (Hello, how are you, good ect)

I studied Latin for a year but only know four words!

I can speak the alphabet and my name, greeting and sing a song in Irish Sign Language.

At the minute I am trying to learn some Chinese. I've got "Hello", "how are you" and "thank you" down.

So thats English, Irish, French, Spanish, Italian, Polish, Lithuanian, Latin, Chinese and Irish Sign Language.

alphabet,name,greeting and a song.
thats hardly knowing how to use irish sign language:rolleyes:

9wetfckx43j5rg

anplaya wrote: »

alphabet,name,greeting and a song.
thats hardly knowing how to use irish sign language:rolleyes:

I didn't say I could speak the language did I?

This thread if called Learning a Language, not what can you speak.

anplaya

learning a language ,not knowing a few words.
sure i know plenty of words in different languages but that doesnt mean im learning it.
learning it to me means going the whole 9 yards and learning to pronounce and speak the words and then go on to read and write in that language.
having a few words doesnt mean youve learnt a language.

9wetfckx43j5rg

anplaya wrote: »

learning a language ,not knowing a few words.
sure i know plenty of words in different languages but that doesnt mean im learning it.
learning it to me means going the whole 9 yards and learning to pronounce and speak the words and then go on to read and write in that language.
having a few words doesnt mean youve learnt a language.

I also didn't say that I had "learnt" sign language.

Learning doesn't just take place in a classroom, it is something one does constantly. Just because I am not sitting in a classroom in front of a book does not mean I am not learning. And just because you have a different definition than I do doesn't mean that what I do isn't learning, because I will never stop learning and never stop trying to know how to greet everyone in their own language, and I will never stop trying to better myself.

anplaya

Tobias Happy Lasagna wrote: »

I also didn't say that I had "learnt" sign language.

Learning doesn't just take place in a classroom, it is something one does constantly. Just because I am not sitting in a classroom in front of a book does not mean I am not learning. And just because you have a different definition than I do doesn't mean that what I do isn't learning, because I will never stop learning and never stop trying to know how to greet everyone in their own language, and I will never stop trying to better myself.

ya dont need to be in a classroom reading a book to learn a language.

most people have a few words in most languages,that doesnt mean they know the language.3 or 4 words doesnt make a language.

i dont think its impressive at all ya would want to know how to say hello in every nationalities language,thats more of an oddity than a skill,what are ya going to say to them after ya say hello?assume they speak english:rolleyes:

it would be more impressive if ya know how to read and write and speak in say arabic however.that would be bettering yourself rather than learning a meaningless thing as you discribled above.

..Summergirl..

I speak fluent English, Russian, Ukrainian. I spoke Serbian and German before, but because I don't use them often I all must forgot them. German is a beautiful language, but I noticed that Austrian-German and Germany-German are quite different in pronunciations. Like Germans usually says Jung- boy, Austrians usually says bub. It's similar like here, I hardly understand people from Cork and Kerry area. Same in Austria, some Austrians do not understand their own people.

Tobias Happy Lasagna

Tobias Happy Lasagna wrote: »

I didn't say I could speak the language did I?

This thread if called Learning a Language, not what can you speak.

Yes, but learning also doesn't mean having picked up a few words in the past. If you're not currently taking a class or self teaching the language, or planning to continue it in the near future, you're not learning it, and if you only know hello and goodbye, you don't speak it. I wouldn't bother mentioning a language if I only knew a few words. Not having a go though, just saying anplaya has a point.

9wetfckx43j5rg

anplaya wrote: »

ya dont need to be in a classroom reading a book to learn a language.

most people have a few words in most languages,that doesnt mean they know the language.3 or 4 words doesnt make a language.

i dont think its impressive at all ya would want to know how to say hello in every nationalities language,thats more of an oddity than a skill,what are ya going to say to them after ya say hello?assume they speak english:rolleyes:

it would be more impressive if ya know how to read and write and speak in say arabic however.that would be bettering yourself rather than learning a meaningless thing as you discribled above.

You call it meaningless being able to greet people in their language but I have had girls come up to me and tell me how it made them feel more at ease and welcomed within my school community because they were able to speak those few words to me when we met in the morning.

9wetfckx43j5rg

And I believe something entirely different. Different people, different opinions. I believe that a person never stops learning throughout their life. I don't classify learning as the actual activity of reading the book or taking a class, I define learning as every new thing we know at 11pm at night that we didn't know that morning. I define learning as any method a person takes to better themselves or their knowledge.

earwax_man

I speak fluent English, Irish and German; but I'd love to become fluent in Japanese and Mandarin Chinese. I can actually hold a conversation with both of them, but I have no one to practice these with, so I can't get any better with speaking them. But I can write 850 Chinese Hanzi, and I know both the Japanese alphabets and about 300 Kanji.

I love languages.

Someday I'd like to learn Finish and Dutch. :P

anplaya

Tobias Happy Lasagna wrote: »

You call it meaningless being able to greet people in their language but I have had girls come up to me and tell me how it made them feel more at ease and welcomed within my school community because they were able to speak those few words to me when we met in the morning.

you spoke those few words to them?such as hello?what nationality were they and what language did they speak then? italian,french,spanish? ciao?bonjour?hola?
see most people know those words thats not impressive.
what language did they try and speak to you in after you used your impressive range of vocabulary?
let me guess?english ?oh my how did i guess that?

if ya want to learn a language,learn it.from scratch.not a few greetings.thats what i define learning a language.i could be picking up a few words from a different language every now and again,but i dont define that as learning a language.thats knowing a few words. big difference.

9wetfckx43j5rg

anplaya wrote: »

you spoke those few words to them?such as hello?what nationality were they and what language did they speak then? italian,french,spanish? ciao?bonjour?hola?
see most people know those words thats not impressive.
what language did they try and speak to you in after you used your impressive range of vocabulary?
let me guess?english ?oh my how did i guess that?

if ya want to learn a language,learn it.from scratch.not a few greetings.thats what i define learning a language.i could be picking up a few words from a different language every now and again,but i dont define that as learning a language.thats knowing a few words. big difference.

Actually no the languages were Polish and Lithuanian Do most people know those words? And you "guessed" that because they would hardly come to Ireland to learn any other than English! What someone thinks "oh I want to learn Welsh. I think I'll go to Ireland!

I define picking up words every now and again as learning because is exactly what learning is. You are stuck is some "proper" idea of learning that was put upon you in the school system. Learning is finding out a piece of knowledge that you didn't know before. It is an activity and can be however long or short you want it to be.

And if you want to be technical about it and say there is only one method of "learning" how do you define having "learnt" a language. When you are fluent in it? When you can hold a conversation in it? I am both fluent and can hold a conversation in English, but does that mean I know every single word there is to know in the English language? No it does not. No one will ever truely know every single word there is in a language so surely your technical mind would then come to the conclusion that no one can ever say that they have "learnt" a language.

For me Learning is a ongoing process that will never cease once you start. I will learn to the day I die, because one can only ever stop learning when they know everything there is to know.

anplaya

Tobias Happy Lasagna wrote: »

Actually no the languages were Polish and Lithuanian Do most people know those words? And you "guessed" that because they would hardly come to Ireland to learn any other than English! What someone thinks "oh I want to learn Welsh. I think I'll go to Ireland!

I define picking up words every now and again as learning because is exactly what learning is. You are stuck is some "proper" idea of learning that was put upon you in the school system. Learning is finding out a piece of knowledge that you didn't know before. It is an activity and can be however long or short you want it to be.

And if you want to be technical about it and say there is only one method of "learning" how do you define having "learnt" a language. When you are fluent in it? When you can hold a conversation in it? I am both fluent and can hold a conversation in English, but does that mean I know every single word there is to know in the English language? No it does not. No one will ever truely know every single word there is in a language so surely your technical mind would then come to the conclusion that no one can ever say that they have "learnt" a language.

For me Learning is a ongoing process that will never cease once you start. I will learn to the day I die, because one can only ever stop learning when they know everything there is to know.

eh,i went through the same schools system as you did,i aint that much older than you if youre 18.

so if theyre polish and lithuanian?hello in polish is czesc and lithuanian is labas,tens of thousands of them living here,worked a few polish and lithuanian people.can say hello in estonian,latvian and russian too.big deal.

well considering most people who come here from different countries come here cause they see it as an english speaking country not an irish speaking one,your argument is flawed there.

all very good for you,but ya could put that learning to something better,like actually learning a language instead of how to greet everybody in their own language.

why dont ya go to a sign language class and learn sign rather than just know the alphabet and a song?then youll be able to have a conversation with a deaf person in isl which is a really wonderful thing.

9wetfckx43j5rg

No it's not flawed, you just repeated the exact same thing I said. You guessed they spoke English back to me easily because duh we speak english here and they would not come here to learn any other language!

If you want to prove you know just as much as me why don't you tell me three different ways to say "I'm ok" in lithunaian or "I love you" in polish?

I want to be able to greet everyone in their own language, not learn the whole language. Personally if I can say hello and how are you to ten people and make them feel that bit more welcome I would find that to be a much better thing than if I can hold one full convo with one.

And I already plan to learn more sign language when I'm out of college and actually have the time.

You went tru the same school system but I decided to take something different out of it, not just the ideals that were enforced upon you within it.

I respect different opinions instead of picking fights with someone who doesn't do things the same way I do, and so thinking that surely such methods can't be correct because they're not what I do.

anplaya

Tobias Happy Lasagna wrote: »

No it's not flawed, you just repeated the exact same thing I said. You guessed they spoke English back to me easily because duh we speak english here and they would not come here to learn any other language!

If you want to prove you know just as much as me why don't you tell me three different ways to say "I'm ok" in lithunaian or "I love you" in polish?

I want to be able to greet everyone in their own language, not learn the whole language. Personally if I can say hello and how are you to ten people and make them feel that bit more welcome I would find that to be a much better thing than if I can hold one full convo with one.

And I already plan to learn more sign language when I'm out of college and actually have the time.

You went tru the same school system but I decided to take something different out of it, not just the ideals that were enforced upon you within it.

I respect different opinions instead of picking fights with someone who doesn't do things the same way I do, and so thinking that surely such methods can't be correct because they're not what I do.

obviously theyd speak english or at least some if they were coming to a mainly english speaking country.its common sense.duh,as ye children say.

never said i knew as much as you, why would i know how to say im ok in lithuanian or i love you in polish?thats like me saying right ya tell me how to say this and so in this language.tbh i could have just looked it up on the internet but i didnt . i cant speak those words.i dont know the languages.all i know is a few words that ive heard or being told in those languages or others.i havent made an attempt to learn the language.

if ya learn how to speak a language fluently ya can have a conversation with more than 1 person rather than stopping after saying hello,how are you to those ten people.get yerself a book on sign language or any other language rather than just picking up one or two words in different languages,youll feel like youve achieved a lot more .look at it for ten mins every day,its amazing what ya can pick up in just 10 minutes.as ya said ya never stop learning,surely ya have 10 mins in your busy timetable to learn something new?

what do ya mean the ideals that were forced on me?your words not mine.taking something different out of it?such as what?respecting other cultures?learning about other cultures?as i said im not much older than you.going to college?check ,already did that.like youre doing now.travelled?check, already did that.working,doing that.i suppose like any normal person in this country has done.

as ya said different strokes for different blokes.continue doing what youre doing,sorry for the nitpicking,just sayin what i think learning a language means.:)obviously we have different ideas on that sure.:P

Aard

FruitLover wrote: »

Over a billion people speak various forms of Chinese (supposedly the most difficult family of currently spoken languages), including infants and retards, so you can do it too.

I'd love to know who proliferates this kind of information. Chinese is not, by any stretch of the word, either one of or "the" most difficult family of currently spoken languages. From the perspective of a European, the languages of Native America are far and away the most difficult languages - Chinese pales in comparison. In fact, due to Chinese being an analytic language, it is relatively easy for most people to learn. The tones may be difficult - but hey, even Norwegian and Swedish have tones! Chinese writing, on the other hand, is certainly one of the most difficult.